US mass shootings

[RandomGuy99]

There have now been 130 mass shootings in the US so far this year with the latest being the school shooting in Nashville yesterday where at least 6 people were killed.

When will the US ban these weapons?

They've already made their schools secure and they teach young kids to run, hide and fight.

These weapons existed decades before but there weren't so many mass shootings.

What has happened to the world?

[Stevelondon]

It seems as if it’s an everyday occurrence in this country where somebody is knifed.
But all we hear are arguments regarding stop and search. Not enough places for youths to go etc.

[Adoniron]

The UK tightened its gun laws after the Dunblane shootings in 1996. In the 26 years since then there have been no school shootings in the UK. However in the US they think the answer is to arm teachers or employ armed security guards at schools because nothing must infringe their constitutional right to bear arms.

[sharpshoes78]

Don't worry, thoughts and prayers will fix everything

[RandomGuy99]

In certain parts of the US there is certainly a hunting culture but you don't need semi-automatic weapons to hunt deer.

I have friends in the US and their 12 yr old son already has his own semi-automatic rifle for hunting and his father carries a pistol in his car.

[JontyR]

It seems as if it’s an everyday occurrence in this country where somebody is knifed.

We don't have lots of cases where someone is going on a knifing spree and knifing people indiscriminately.

And anyway I think I could possibly outrun someone with a knife, or join in with others to take them on. Couldn't do that with someone with a gun.

But all we hear are arguments regarding stop and search. Not enough places for youths to go etc.

Think you are oversimplifying things a bit.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Could you imagine what it would be like here if we had the same levels of arnamants as they do there?..

[RandomGuy99]

Could you imagine what it would be like here if we had the same levels of arnamants as they do there?..

If the weapons aren't there then they can't be used. The worst that can happen is someone gets ounched or a car gets kicked. If knives or guns are around then situations can escalate wuickly and there are a lot of people around who very quickly react badly. Perhaps it's to do with the internet and social media. The world has changed and people seem to react much quicker than they used to.

[Stevelondon]

We don't have lots of cases where someone is going on a knifing spree and knifing people indiscriminately.

And anyway I think I could possibly outrun someone with a knife, or join in with others to take them on. Couldn't do that with someone with a gun.
Think you are oversimplifying things a bit.

I never mentioned knifing sprees so why should you and what the hell does being able to outrun somebody with a knife have to do with anything.
If you’re standing on a train platform and twat sticks a blade in your back………. Why didn’t you run ?

What I was getting at is that the gun lobby in the States is just too powerful so this kind of killing will never end.
But here we have a definite knife problem that just never seems to get addressed.

I’d welcome your ideas

[RandomGuy99]

You have to change the US Constitution to remove the right to bear arms as it was relevant at a point in time, but now it's a dangerous thing to be done.

[bigden40]

There have now been 130 mass shootings in the US so far this year with the latest being the school shooting in Nashville yesterday where at least 6 people were killed.

When will the US ban these weapons?

They've already made their schools secure and they teach young kids to run, hide and fight.

These weapons existed decades before but there weren't so many mass shootings.

What has happened to the world?

This was a very sad incident for sure, and the circumstances around it are complex.  One could equally ask whether we should ban women from being treated with testosterone as it makes them aggressive.

BUT one also has to be careful on definitions.  Mass shooting is quite a vague term and may just mean a shots being fired in a populated area.  The FBI use the term “mass killing” where 3 or more people are killed in a single event.  There have not been 130 mass killings this year. 

It should also be noted that most shootings in the US are either gang related or an individual killing someone they know with a hand gun. Doesn’t make them a good thing, but one has to recognise the facts otherwise proposed solutions may just not work - which it roughly the US experience over the last couple of decades. 

It’s easy to have a British “why don’t they just ban guns?” view but one only has to look at how Peirs Morgan became unstuck on that when he was on CNN. He’s changed his tune and talks about “gun safety” rather than “gun control” nowadays.  They have guns for a reason, it’s in their constitution for a reason, Brits are the last people they’ll listen to on it. 

[mr.bluesky]

I think what was so surprising about these latest shootings was that it was carried out by a female .

[Doc Holliday]

This was a very sad incident for sure, and the circumstances around it are complex.  One could equally ask whether we should ban women from being treated with testosterone as it makes them aggressive.

BUT one also has to be careful on definitions.  Mass shooting is quite a vague term and may just mean a shots being fired in a populated area.  The FBI use the term “mass killing” where 3 or more people are killed in a single event.  There have not been 130 mass killings this year. 

It should also be noted that most shootings in the US are either gang related or an individual killing someone they know with a hand gun. Doesn’t make them a good thing, but one has to recognise the facts otherwise proposed solutions may just not work - which it roughly the US experience over the last couple of decades. 

It’s easy to have a British “why don’t they just ban guns?” view but one only has to look at how Peirs Morgan became unstuck on that when he was on CNN. He’s changed his tune and talks about “gun safety” rather than “gun control” nowadays.  They have guns for a reason, it’s in their constitution for a reason, Brits are the last people they’ll listen to on it.

It is complex, but school shootings are almost exclusively a US phenomenon. No other country comes anywhere near. Whilst the availability of guns is a factor there must be others to explain this?

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=345256.msg3577018#msg3577018

[maxQ]

When will the US ban these weapons?

Never

If you don't understand this, you don't understand the US

[chrishornx]

You have to change the US Constitution to remove the right to bear arms as it was relevant at a point in time, but now it's a dangerous thing to be done.

too late

[RandomGuy99]

Never

If you don't understand this, you don't understand the US

At one time in the UK people openly carried knives, guns and swords and it wasn't last week. The country learned and moved on and realised that carrying weapons wasn't a good thing. The US is still a relatively young country and it still has much to learn.

[maxQ]

At one time in the UK people openly carried knives, guns and swords and it wasn't last week. The country learned and moved on and realised that carrying weapons wasn't a good thing. The US is still a relatively young country and it still has much to learn.

Like I said, you don't understand the US

[RandomGuy99]

Like I said, you don't understand the US

Care to explain please?

[JontyR]

I never mentioned knifing sprees so why should you and what the hell does being able to outrun somebody with a knife have to do with anything.
If you’re standing on a train platform and twat sticks a blade in your back………. Why didn’t you run ?

Because these sprees in the US are very different to what happens in this country with knives. I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) will be between folks who know each other and one on one. Where they aren't it will probably have booze or drugs involvement. The spree killings in the US are different.

And if I felt in danger on a train platform because of a previous altercation I'd keep my back to the wall.

What I was getting at is that the gun lobby in the States is just too powerful so this kind of killing will never end.
But here we have a definite knife problem that just never seems to get addressed.

I’d welcome your ideas

Well I think you need to look at the causes and not the symptom. Your original post seemed to suggest that those who didn't want the liberties impinged by stop and search. Which is a reactive measure and there are questions over how it would be applied. It could do more to alienate folks on the edge of society and not help to integrate.

You seem to dismiss the lack of things for youth to do as well. But society hasn't kept pace in addressing and educating kids in a world where the media has moved on. "Charlie says" just aint going to cut it anymore.

But at the same time we need to get out of the culture of demonising the kids and also those that try and help them. You can't help but think that if there was funding for a series of engagement events which included say, a martial arts class that included the use of weapons, amongst kids that the Daily Mail would be running an expose on it and the Taxpayers Alliance would be up in arms at it no matter what the positive outcomes it may have brought.

[jackdaw]

Care to explain please?

If would be incredibly difficult because the “right to bear arms” is embedded in the Constitution by the second amendment…so any necessary legislation would need to pass both houses with a two thirds majority rather than a simple majority.

It’s hard to see any significant number of Republican politicians supporting gun control…because a lot of Americans love their guns, the gun lobby bankrolls a lot of Republican politicians and a lot of money is made all round. So no chance of a 2 thirds majority in either house in near future.

Any “creative half way measures” would most likely be challenged in the Supreme Court, where presently reactionary judges hold sway.

It’s a sad truth that the Hollywood view of American life is massively sanitised…a lot of their Republican politicians (and their supporters) make our Tories appear to be benign socialists.

[maxQ]

If would be incredibly difficult because the “right to bear arms” is embedded in the Constitution by the second amendment…so any necessary legislation would need to pass both houses with a two thirds majority rather than a simple majority.

It’s hard to see any significant number of Republican politicians supporting gun control…because a lot of Americans love their guns, the gun lobby bankrolls a lot of Republican politicians and a lot of money is made all round. So no chance of a 2 thirds majority in either house in near future.

Any “creative half way measures” would most likely be challenged in the Supreme Court, where presently reactionary judges hold sway.

It’s a sad truth that the Hollywood view of American life is massively sanitised…a lot of their Republican politicians (and their supporters) make our Tories appear to be benign socialists.

The only part you left out is that plenty of Democrats also like their guns and won't be giving them up anytime soon

[David1970]

If would be incredibly difficult because the “right to bear arms” is embedded in the Constitution by the second amendment…so any necessary legislation would need to pass both houses with a two thirds majority rather than a simple majority.

It’s hard to see any significant number of Republican politicians supporting gun control…because a lot of Americans love their guns, the gun lobby bankrolls a lot of Republican politicians and a lot of money is made all round. So no chance of a 2 thirds majority in either house in near future.

Any “creative half way measures” would most likely be challenged in the Supreme Court, where presently reactionary judges hold sway.

It’s a sad truth that the Hollywood view of American life is massively sanitised…a lot of their Republican politicians (and their supporters) make our Tories appear to be benign socialists.

The second amendment states
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The people who wrote the seconded amendment wrote this when America had no standing army and relied on a militia to protect its self. The people gained the right to bear arms as part of a well regulated Militia, not as a bunch conspiracy nuts and child killers.

Unfortunately if you made all the law abiding people give up their guns it would leave weapons in the hands of the gun nuts and criminals. America should have 30 day period between someone applying for a gun and getting one, so background checks can be done. The only guns that should be allowed should be bolt action rifles and double bore shotguns, revolvers for personal and property protection. There is no need for weapons of war to be in the publics hands.

The crazy thing it is illegal to buy a beer before you are 21 years old, but you can own a military assault rifle.

[Colston36]

America, where I have now been spending time for over 50 years, is ruled by money, pure and simple. Politicians spend more of their time raising money than anything they are elected to do fo voters. The NRA floods politicians with money. That's the merry-death-go round for children.

[Stevelondon]

Because these sprees in the US are very different to what happens in this country with knives. I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) will be between folks who know each other and one on one. Where they aren't it will probably have booze or drugs involvement. The spree killings in the US are different.

And if I felt in danger on a train platform because of a previous altercation I'd keep my back to the wall.

Well I think you need to look at the causes and not the symptom. Your original post seemed to suggest that those who didn't want the liberties impinged by stop and search. Which is a reactive measure and there are questions over how it would be applied. It could do more to alienate folks on the edge of society and not help to integrate.

You seem to dismiss the lack of things for youth to do as well. But society hasn't kept pace in addressing and educating kids in a world where the media has moved on. "Charlie says" just aint going to cut it anymore.

But at the same time we need to get out of the culture of demonising the kids and also those that try and help them. You can't help but think that if there was funding for a series of engagement events which included say, a martial arts class that included the use of weapons, amongst kids that the Daily Mail would be running an expose on it and the Taxpayers Alliance would be up in arms at it no matter what the positive outcomes it may have brought.

I’m all for that. Sadly it takes time…….. like an eternity.
In the meantime people still carry knives. People still get stabbed and those responsible get treated too leniently as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps it’s an age thing with me.
I had nowt as a kid but did’nt resort to crime.

As far as I’m concerned there are far too many excuses being made for actions being taken by those who have a choice.

Anyways. Enough on that.

The killings in the US are desperately sad.

[billybobsmith]

I think what was so surprising about these latest shootings was that it was carried out by a female .

The BBC News site mentioned something about her being transgender.  Whether this played a part in going to a Christian school (they apparently attended previously), whom possibly didn't agree with her/his/their "beliefs", no idea.

[RandomGuy99]

In England we used to have the Bill of Right. 1689 which allowed:

That the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law.

Then other laws were brought in later which banned the possession of certain weapons.

If the will was there, the US could do similar but the southern states in particular are very into gun ownership and then you have states like New Hampshire with their "Live Free or Die" motto, which doesn't really help. They seem to associate gun ownership with being a man and hunting as a birth right.

It's crazy. Things need to change and they will eventually but not for a few more decades. Nothing is forever. Common sense will eventually prevail, but sadly a lot more innocent people will die.

[DastardlyDick]

As pointed out earlier, the whole "right to bear arms" thing has (IMO) been used by various vested interests to mean "everyone" completely disregarding the part about "a militia" . Maybe another amendment could restrict gun possession to members of the US Military, who would have to leave them in barracks until actually deployed or on a training excercise?

[anglian]

This was a very sad incident for sure, and the circumstances around it are complex.  One could equally ask whether we should ban women from being treated with testosterone as it makes them aggressive.

BUT one also has to be careful on definitions.  Mass shooting is quite a vague term and may just mean a shots being fired in a populated area.  The FBI use the term “mass killing” where 3 or more people are killed in a single event.  There have not been 130 mass killings this year. 

It should also be noted that most shootings in the US are either gang related or an individual killing someone they know with a hand gun. Doesn’t make them a good thing, but one has to recognise the facts otherwise proposed solutions may just not work - which it roughly the US experience over the last couple of decades. 

It’s easy to have a British “why don’t they just ban guns?” view but one only has to look at how Peirs Morgan became unstuck on that when he was on CNN. He’s changed his tune and talks about “gun safety” rather than “gun control” nowadays.  They have guns for a reason, it’s in their constitution for a reason, Brits are the last people they’ll listen to on it.

2021 mass shooters picture.

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[Followyourdick]

They just don’t get it do they.
Attitude is they need more guns to stop the bad guys with guns.
It’s never the guns, it’s the bad guys with guns fault.
Very very sad.

[FLYING BLUE]

Never

If you don't understand this, you don't understand the US

Speaking as one with intimate knowledge of the USA, sadly I have to agree. Perhaps I would have said "USA mentality" but the overall message is the same.

[catweazle]

I remember having a (fairly) heated discussion with a neighbour when I lived in Nevada. He ( and his family) were heading to San Diego to join a cruise ship. He was very annoyed that he'd found out he wasn't allowed to take his automatic  handgun on the ship with him.

I gave up trying to get him to see my viewpoint.

[JontyR]

Speaking as one with intimate knowledge of the USA, sadly I have to agree. Perhaps I would have said "USA mentality" but the overall message is the same.

The USA is a very big place and there are significant differences within states let alone across the country.

It is unlikely to change legislation any time soon but I think there is a pathway to this change. I think that there is the potential for individual states to introduce gun controls. Then others may follow.

You won't get it across the piece or across the country. But just as you have differing attitudes to the death penalty I can see there being a patchwork of states where gun control is the norm.  The sad fact is though is that it may not have an immediate impact on the spree killings which may actually assist the arguments of the gun lobby in the short term.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Are there any other countries that have the same sort of shooting problem and on the same scale?..

[akauya]

Not strictly mass shooting but this is related to US gun controls, or rather lack of it

"Virginia teacher shot by six-year-old files $40m lawsuit"
External Link/Members Only

A six year old with a gun. What a fucked up country.

[RandomGuy99]

Not strictly mass shooting but this is related to US gun controls, or rather lack of it

"Virginia teacher shot by six-year-old files $40m lawsuit"
External Link/Members Only

A six year old with a gun. What a fucked up country.

That was gun legally held by the child's mother, but clearly not stored securely away from her children.

[akauya]

That was gun legally held by the child's mother, but clearly not stored securely away from her children.

Oh that's OK then, stupid me. Thinking a six year old with a killing weapon was not OK. As long as the gun was legal it's fine. Shame about the mother eh?

[Colston36]

Never

If you don't understand this, you don't understand the US

I have been visiting the US regularly for nearly 50 years. EVERYTHING is about money. Congressmen on average spend more time raising money than anything else they do. The National Rifle Association - Murder Incorporated - spends millions bribing them. Canada, next door you might say, doesn't have the  problem as it doesn't have the same insane laws. Switzerland where men are required by law to have guns doesn't have the same problem because their laws are sane.

[Adoniron]

That was gun legally held by the child's mother, but clearly not stored securely away from her children.

If it was me I'd be suing the mother as well as the school.

In the UK she'd have lost her gun licence by now for not storing the weapon securely but I bet she still has it.

[RandomGuy99]

If it was me I'd be suing the mother as well as the school.

In the UK she'd have lost her gun licence by now for not storing the weapon securely but I bet she still has it.

I suspect in time her license will be revoked. She might have had it in handbag or a drawer or under the bed. Kids get to places you never expect and he got hold of it and brought it into school. The teacher may have done something to trigger him to use it and being a six year he saw the use of a gun as a reasonable way to resolve the situation.

There were clearly a few family issues and the child has an acute disability of some description which may explain his behaviour.

[David1970]

Friend of mine returned to the UK from the USA to live, after his daughter was taught at her first day at school how to hide under her desk from gunman. This was not in some red state, but in New England. The USA is one fucked up country.

[RedKettle]

Friend of mine returned to the UK from the USA to live, after his daughter was taught at her first day at school how to hide under her desk from gunman. This was not in some red state, but in New England. The USA is one fucked up country.

You know many U.K. schools do these drills now!

[timsussex]

If it was me I'd be suing the mother as well as the school.
....

1st question lawyers ask who can we sue?
2nd question which of them is worth suing?  ie who has money !

[timsussex]

There are now 26 states (thats over half) where you dont need a special permit to carry a concealed gun

Florida has just joined them

External Link/Members Only

[David1970]

You know many U.K. schools do these drills now!

I did not know that, do you know why they do it in the UK?

[RandomGuy99]

I did not know that, do you know why they do it in the UK?

For the same reasons as the US after Dunblane schools introduced id badges for staff, fencing and security locks on doors.

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[RedKettle]

For the same reasons as the US after Dunblane schools introduced id badges for staff, fencing and security locks on doors.

External Link/Members Only

Not just for shootings, a school near me locked down as somebody on premises waiving a machete.

[PhillyExPat]

Nothing will change from the top down until money is taken completely out of politics imo. Even then, there is such an embedded culture of gun enthusiasm and deeply held belief that owning a gun is a right + necessary that this will never change. There are more guns in America than citizens. So much so that police officers are always operating under the assumption that their lives may be in danger, and that in turn creates even MORE situations where people are shot and killed. How do you remedy that? Government enforcement? Good luck doing that without inciting civil war, as it's in the very reason Americans justify having guns in the first place, you'd be giving them more reason to fight to keep their guns. Even if you promise to only take illegal guns, conservatives are SO paranoid of overreach that they will simply see this as the beginning of fascism.

There is no simple answer. There are corrupt politicians, there are corporate lobbyists, there is a mental health epidemic, there are criminals, and there are careless and undisciplined gun owners.

While I sorely miss the good people and the massively diverse cultures in Philadelphia, I left the US in 2020 and haven't looked back except to watch things unravel from this side of the fence lol The way things are now, I just can't see myself ever moving back.

[David1970]

For the same reasons as the US after Dunblane schools introduced id badges for staff, fencing and security locks on doors.

External Link/Members Only

It was the teaching of children on there first day at school to take cover from mass shooters in the UK, I did not know about. I did know about hand gun rules and security being tightened in school.

[RandomGuy99]

It was the teaching of children on there first day at school to take cover from mass shooters in the UK, I did not know about. I did know about hand gun rules and security being tightened in school.

I guess they have to get taught from day one as you never onow if that day someone dangerous is going to come into the school. It's a sad reflection on the world that we have to teach children to hide, run, attack to protect themselves while they're supposed to be in a safe place of learning.

[Adoniron]

You know many U.K. schools do these drills now!

The schools my children went to and grandchildren go to never have.