Author Topic: American shootings  (Read 6787 times)

Offline puntingking

i have tried reading that post several times, and dont really understand your point, you can actually get hold of guns easily in every country in the world, but gun massacres are essentially an american problem, there will always be gun massacres in america no matter what rules they introduce, believe otherwise if it makes you happy.

You mentioned scotland in your earlier post. I was saying that just because a country may have shootings even if they have strict gun control laws does not mean strict gun control is not effective at stopping more unnecessary mass murder at the hands of guns.
If USA at strict gun laws it would takes years to see a shift but you will start to see a change in less gun crimes.

We have bulgary, rapes, other crimes and they are all against the law..gun crime will happen but it is about making the numbers fall. America has way to much and it is because of their gun policy. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 08:42:04 pm by puntingking »

Offline willie loman

You mentioned scotland in your earlier post. I was saying that just because a country may have shootings even if they have strict gun control laws does not mean strict gun control is not effective at stopping more unnecessary mass murder at the hands of guns.
If USA at strict gun laws it would takes years to see a shift but you will start to see a change in less gun crimes.

We have bulgary, rapes, other crimes and they are all against the law..gun crime will happen but it is about making the numbers fall. America has way to much and it is because of their gun policy.
you still havent explained why other countries that have high levels of gun ownership, eg switzerland where almost every household has a gun, and at least one adult capable of using it, does not have gun crime, never mind mass shootings

Offline puntingking

you still havent explained why other countries that have high levels of gun ownership, eg switzerland where almost every household has a gun, and at least one adult capable of using it, does not have gun crime, never mind mass shootings

I have research Switzerland crime rate and their crime rate is low anyway so you would not get gun crime if also their other crimes are also low because it shows that the state of the public general mindset is a good one. USA mindset is poor. USA crime as a whole is quite high. UK has a hole is quite high, if we had lenient gun laws then gun crime would be high also because our crime is also high because has a society in uk our mindset is also a poor one. Our mental health is poor,  USA mental health is poor. Where Switzerland is they mentality is good atleast for the moment. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 09:36:36 pm by puntingking »

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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I predict with absolutly no fear of contradiction that;

Women will run Afganistan Long BEFORE the Amercians will forgo their right to arms.

The good lord said suffer little children come unto me. Wasnt he so very right..

Amen.....

Online Colston36

I reckon more than half of Americans are in favour of gun control.
Not sure it would make much difference given how many are in circulation.
Zero chance of anything happening though.
As always in American politics.
Follow the money.

As usual, wrong. Even before the latest disaster.

TOPLINE Nearly 60% of registered voters think it’s at least somewhat important for lawmakers to pass stricter gun laws, a new Morning Consult/Politico poll found after a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York—even before another shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas on Tuesday further ramped up calls for Congress to pass gun control legislation.

Online Colston36

America, to a very great extent, was founded by people fleeing war, oppression, famine, Communism and various other man-made miseries. The right to bear arms was enshrined in their Constitution to allow the citizenry to defend themselves in the event the United States government were to turn against them.

Do tell how the US could have been founded to fight communism 250 years before Karl Marx. Buy a history book.

Online Colston36

high gun ownership in many countries, france , italy, switzerland, germany,  these people have a "hunting culture", problem isnt guns, its americans, no idea of what the solution is.

It is Americans, but do try to say things  with some vague relationship to the facts. Only Switzerland among the other countries you mention has high ownership - but the actual carrying of guns is very strictly controlled.

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Offline puntingking

 People need to look at the whole country when taken into account their gun crime figures. For instance as I pointed out in my earlier post on my switzerland post that if a country has a low gun crime in general but high population of people got access to firearms it could be that their crime rate as a whole is low which would mean the state of that particular country mental health and well-being and general state of living is a good one.

This is not a case in countries like the uk and USA where mental heath is poor, crime is high and so gun crime would be high too in the USA and so if our (the uk) gun policy was soft then it too would see gun crime go high.

I hope I am making sense on my point here.  :hi:
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 06:05:47 am by puntingking »

Offline King Nuts

Do tell how the US could have been founded to fight communism 250 years before Karl Marx. Buy a history book.



I don't need the patronising advice, thank you.

Offline King Nuts

Not surprised to see you are taking this position.

And trotting out this old rationalisation straight from the NRA handbook. You must recognise that they are not accurate analogies?

How many children were killed by a homicidal driver intentionally ploughing his car through a playground?

People need to use a car every day to get from A to B. Particularly in a huge, widely dispersed country like the USA that has a very sparse public transport system. Obviously accidents happen, that's an unavoidable fact of life, but governments are constantly introducing legislation in an attempt to reduce those deaths (e.g. seat belts, banning mobile phone use while driving, drink drive limits, speed limits).

Guns are lethal offensive weapons. Describing them as defensive weapons is just gun lobby marketing speak. Inflicting death and injury are their primary purpose. There is not much legislation that can be introduced to make them safer, other than to restrict access to them.  How many people need to use an automatic rifle, or even a handgun, everyday? How many deaths caused by guns would be described as accidental as opposed to intentional?

I'm not taking any position. Just mentioning context amongst all the pearl-clutching on here.

I don't like guns, don't want one, never had one, don't agree with them. I wouldn't have one on principle.

Been to America something like 75+ times and have a business there too, so I know the country better than most people. Only ever seen someone who wasn't in the police, who carried a gun, and that was in Texas.

Fact remains that more people die on the roads than get shot dead. It can be explained reasonably rationally, of course. But take away the mass shootings and the gang shootings and the numbers drop considerably. Take actual, practical steps to deal with the illegal drugs trade and you'd see the numbers of people getting shot dead drop right down.

Offline willie loman

People need to look at the whole country when taken into account their gun crime figures. For instance as I pointed out in my earlier post on my switzerland post that if a country has a low gun crime in general but high population of people got access to firearms it could be that their crime rate as a whole is low which would mean the state of that particular country mental health and well-being and general state of living is a good one.

This is not a case in countries like the uk and USA where mental heath is poor, crime is high and so gun crime would be high too in the USA and so if our (the uk) gun policy was soft then it too would see gun crime go high.

I hope I am making sense on my point here.  :hi:

but this is the point i am making, the problem with america is the americans, not guns, change gun laws and you wont see an end to these massacres, as anyone who really wants a gun, will find one wherever he is in the world.

Offline willie loman

It is Americans, but do try to say things  with some vague relationship to the facts. Only Switzerland among the other countries you mention has high ownership - but the actual carrying of guns is very strictly controlled.

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thanks for the link it merely proves the point that i have already made that gun ownership in many parts of the world is quite high, 30 guns per hundred residents in quite a few countries in europe will probably come as a surprise to many, but my central position remains unchanged, close every gun shop in the states, drive it underground, and you wont stop  a single massacre, spree killing etc is part of the american way of life, blame it on gun availability if you wish.

Offline Squire Haggard

Long ago, I remember reading that shooters like this guy are often small town loners. Its true that many of them are, and this guy seems to fit the stereotype.

Offline Corus Boy

Out of interest where?

A County in Texas IIRC.

Taxas is still the Wild West regards gun laws, IMO;

Texas does not require a gun owner or purchaser to obtain a license or require a background check for private gun sales.

Since September 1, 2021, a permit is not required for a person 21 and over to carry a handgun either openly or concealed in most places.

In Texas, an individual between the ages of 18 and 21 can buy a long gun or rifle, such as an AR-15.

Offline chrishornx

A County in Texas IIRC.

Taxas is still the Wild West regards gun laws, IMO;

Texas does not require a gun owner or purchaser to obtain a license or require a background check for private gun sales.

Since September 1, 2021, a permit is not required for a person 21 and over to carry a handgun either openly or concealed in most places.

In Texas, an individual between the ages of 18 and 21 can buy a long gun or rifle, such as an AR-15.

Which County? I know Texas has very low permit requirements but having spent a lot of time over there I am not aware of any county that compels individuals to wear a gun that does sound excessive


Offline Corus Boy


Which County? I know Texas has very low permit requirements but having spent a lot of time over there I am not aware of any county that compels individuals to wear a gun that does sound excessive


I have been searching for details but nothing found.

Also I need to correct my post, diluting it a load, the law was to own a gun, not wear it!

A big difference.

I apologise.

Offline mills_and_bhuna

As usual, wrong. Even before the latest disaster.

TOPLINE Nearly 60% of registered voters think it’s at least somewhat important for lawmakers to pass stricter gun laws, a new Morning Consult/Politico poll found after a mass shooting in Buffalo, New York—even before another shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas on Tuesday further ramped up calls for Congress to pass gun control legislation.
I'm confused .please enlighten me.
I said over half . You said 60%. Which is over half.
I'm in favour of stricter gun laws.
But I don't have faith in politicians who are in the pockets of big business.

Offline snaitram99

America, to a very great extent, was founded by people fleeing war, oppression, famine, Communism and various other man-made miseries. The right to bear arms was enshrined in their Constitution to allow the citizenry to defend themselves in the event the United States government were to turn against them.

1. Communism did not exist when the USA was founded

2. Have you read the Amendment? What well ordered militia do these "shooters" belong to?

Offline JamesKW

Maybe something to do with 19 children and 2 teachers losing their lives?  :unknown:

I am sure just as many innocents get killed by guns in South America or Africa,but that doesnt seem to concern us.

Offline Matrix

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I think there's over 60000 murders/shootings a year on the mexican side of the border. They have very restrictive gun laws, but their police are shite. 

Offline spiralnotebook

Quote
But I don't have faith in politicians who are in the pockets of big business.

Aren’t they all?


I’m more concerned with the proposed H&S lead ban. Is the army going to shout ‘BANG’ or the police use harsh language instead of killing as ordered?

Offline Jayjay1

This document explains why Americans believe having access to guns are necessity.

In short its for protection- Spoke to 2 Americans regarding guns a while back, one of them I quote ' I feel so sorry for you guys in UK you can't have guns to protect yourselves' , went on to say he has some rifle right by his door ready to take on any trespasser.

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Offline jackdaw

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Fact remains that more people die on the roads than get shot dead. It can be explained reasonably rationally, of course. But take away the mass shootings and the gang shootings and the numbers drop considerably. Take actual, practical steps to deal with the illegal drugs trade and you'd see the numbers of people getting shot dead drop right down.

Just had a quick Google and in both years I checked (2020 and 2021) gun deaths exceeded road deaths in USA…but I did include gun suicides, which are fairly high.
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Offline chrishornx

Just had a quick Google and in both years I checked (2020 and 2021) gun deaths exceeded road deaths in USA…but I did include gun suicides, which are fairly high.

i wonder how many car deaths were 'accidental' compared to 'accidental' gun deaths

Offline JontyR

i wonder how many car deaths were 'accidental' compared to 'accidental' gun deaths
This.

I did wonder about the split of deliberate kills, kills caused by negligence / lack of sobriety and those by accident.

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Do they still nead to "bear arms" these days?..

Offline Stevelondon

Do they still nead to "bear arms" these days?..

Bear Arms…… hairy stuff  :D

I see that it’s now being reported on how long it took the police to actually go into the school. Apparently armed police were on scene but were not ordered to enter the building.
Sad sad day (Yet another unfortunately)

The arguments and debates will go on forever and I can’t be bothered to chime in as it’s far to complex.

But I will just point out something.
An 18 year old kid (Just turned 18) can walk into a store and buy the kind of weapons he did….. with no trouble at all.

Maybe we should change the law in this country and let this happen. It’s a sure fire way to cut down on knife crime.
I hope my sarcasm is not lost on those who think gun laws in the States are not the problem.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 07:37:28 am by Stevelondon »

Offline King Nuts

Just had a quick Google and in both years I checked (2020 and 2021) gun deaths exceeded road deaths in USA…but I did include gun suicides, which are fairly high.

Road deaths in 2020 38,825. External Link/Members Only

Gun deaths 2019 (latest I could find) 37,038 External Link/Members Only

Interestingly, Brazil's figure was way higher, and in terms of gun homicides per capita, the US isn't even in the top ten.



Offline King Nuts

i wonder how many car deaths were 'accidental' compared to 'accidental' gun deaths

If you think people driving while drunk or out of their heads on drugs, or driving carelessly or too fast or too aggressively is 'accidental'.....

It's one thing literally losing your head because you've suddenly hit a moose on an otherwise empty highway in Montana, but I suspect that sort of accident figures pretty low down the list.

Offline King Nuts

I am sure just as many innocents get killed by guns in South America or Africa,but that doesnt seem to concern us.

Quite. They don't count. The British media only obsesses about the Americans having guns.


Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

El Salvador (36.78)
Venezuela (33.27)
Guatemala (29.06)
Colombia (26.36)
Brazil (21.93)
Bahamas (21.52)
Honduras (20.15)
U.S. Virgin Islands (19.40)
Puerto Rico (18.14)
Mexico (16.41)

Offline Adoniron

Road deaths in 2020 38,825. External Link/Members Only

Gun deaths 2019 (latest I could find) 37,038 External Link/Members Only

Interestingly, Brazil's figure was way higher, and in terms of gun homicides per capita, the US isn't even in the top ten.

The difference is that in places like Brazil most victims of gun crime are rival gang members and criminals, not schoolchildren or innocent bypassers.

Offline maxxblue

I heard on the radio that guns are the biggest cause of deaths of children in the USA. Couldn't find the link this is from 2020:

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Online GreyDave

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It's more complicated than that. Mental health is the root cause. This is not driven by evil. It's driven by mental health.


As we all know here in uk ... There is NO HELP in Health care in the US ... When the bill of rights was written a gun fired one shot and took about 3 mins to re load ..That lad had 2 automatics :(

Online GreyDave

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2. Have you read the Amendment? What well ordered militia do these "shooters" belong to?

This line is what many now would call wrongly interpreted as the line is " to allow Freemen to bear arms"

A Freeman is a time served member of a Guild and respected memeber of Community ( No Women No Slaves No lower Class People )  Freeman meant a memeber of the ruling elite then :hi:

Ive been to Williamsberg they explain it very well ...but the companies making guns and ammo make work   :( :( :(

Offline chrishornx

If you think people driving while drunk or out of their heads on drugs, or driving carelessly or too fast or too aggressively is 'accidental'.....

It's one thing literally losing your head because you've suddenly hit a moose on an otherwise empty highway in Montana, but I suspect that sort of accident figures pretty low down the list.

Moose accidents are as you say very low but drugs only account for 13%. You are splitting hairs over the word accidental as even drug induced car crashes are, in the main, accidental.

but to be clear I shall rephrase and use the word Intentional - virtually all shootings will be intentional and virtually all car crashes unintentional so to compare the two sets of figures is rather pointless.


Online Colston36



I don't need the patronising advice, thank you.

Just education, perhaps?

Online Colston36

I'm confused .please enlighten me.
I said over half . You said 60%. Which is over half.
I'm in favour of stricter gun laws.
But I don't have faith in politicians who are in the pockets of big business.

Apologies. You are right; I am wrong - and the older I get, the more often.

Online Colston36

I am sure just as many innocents get killed by guns in South America or Africa, but that doesnt seem to concern us.

Absolutely true. Brazil has a higher murder rate than the U.S. And of course Afghanistan is off the charts. Proximity is a curiously powerful motivator. I discovered years ago that if I put a local address in charity ads we got far more money in.

Offline Stevelondon

Quite. They don't count. The British media only obsesses about the Americans having guns.


Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

El Salvador (36.78)
Venezuela (33.27)
Guatemala (29.06)
Colombia (26.36)
Brazil (21.93)
Bahamas (21.52)
Honduras (20.15)
U.S. Virgin Islands (19.40)
Puerto Rico (18.14)
Mexico (16.41)


I’m not so sure the press here are obsessing over this. Reporting it yes.
I watched the news last night and first point of call had to do with our lying PM.
Then moved on to the school shooting.

I am also sure your list above is correct. But I think the differences that make these incidents in America stand out. Are because of the innocents being killed.

Like I said previously, it’s a complex issue and making comparisons with car deaths and other countries only make it even more so.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 09:17:25 am by Stevelondon »

Online Colston36

I'm not taking any position. Just mentioning context amongst all the pearl-clutching on here.

I don't like guns, don't want one, never had one, don't agree with them. I wouldn't have one on principle.

Been to America something like 75+ times and have a business there too, so I know the country better than most people. Only ever seen someone who wasn't in the police, who carried a gun, and that was in Texas.

Fact remains that more people die on the roads than get shot dead. It can be explained reasonably rationally, of course. But take away the mass shootings and the gang shootings and the numbers drop considerably. Take actual, practical steps to deal with the illegal drugs trade and you'd see the numbers of people getting shot dead drop right down.

Spot on.

The single greatest cause of this is America's insane "War" on drugs. They learned nothing from the failure of Prohibition. Yesterday I went for a walk in Bristol where I live. Within 5 minutes I saw three huddles of people doing or selling drugs.

50 odd years ago I lived with a retired whore when drugs were made illegal in Britain. Until then you could get them on prescription. She said "this means crime will move in". And it did.

It's common enough now to be like a bad joke.

I was being driven home yesterday by an escort who herself does a bit of coke. A delivery guy on a bike suddenly shot in front of us. She said, "I  know you're delivering drugs, but be careful."


Offline WASA38


Offline JamesKW


Interestingly, Brazil's figure was way higher, and in terms of gun homicides per capita, the US isn't even in the top ten.

Exactly,thats what I have posted about,but noone seems to care about that,certainly not the media.I suspect just as many kids of school kid age get killed there but its so common its not worth reporting.

Offline WASA38

Sorry, attachment didn't download. It was a fascinating bar chart showing gun homicides  per capita by country sourced from Wikipedia

Gun homicides per million of age-related population:
Central American countries  ca 200- 300
USA 62 (2017)
UK  2   (2015)

Knife homicides per million of age-related population in 2018
USA  4.96
UK   3.26

Offline Stevelondon

The easier you make it for people to get their hands on guns.
The more the chance of people getting killed by them.

My OP was about massacres occurring in America quite regularly now.

Not about car deaths or drug related killings in other countries.

Offline lillythesavage

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The easier you make it for people to get their hands on guns.
The more the chance of people getting killed by them.

My OP was about massacres occurring in America quite regularly now.

Not about car deaths or drug related killings in other countries.

Makes sense, and takes some temptation out of the equation if a gun is hard to get  :unknown:
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Offline King Nuts

The difference is that in places like Brazil most victims of gun crime are rival gang members and criminals, not schoolchildren or innocent bypassers.

I don't know the figures but I'd take a guess that at least 75 per cent of all gun homicides in America are gang- and thus drugs-related.

People randomly getting shot at while going about their business is still incredibly rare.

In my travels around the US, I've only ever seen one gun drawn, and that was in New York City. By a copper, chasing some dude or other. (Quite exciting, as it happens.)

Offline King Nuts

The easier you make it for people to get their hands on guns.
The more the chance of people getting killed by them.

My OP was about massacres occurring in America quite regularly now.

Not about car deaths or drug related killings in other countries.

I think we're all agreed that these mass shootings are awful. But context is important. There are more people getting shot dead in other countries, on a per capita basis, and yet no-one appears to give a rat's.

The media persistently homes in on America while ignoring the carnage in places like Mexico and Central America.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 11:03:16 am by King Nuts »

Offline Doc Holliday

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An interesting discussion. My own view is that there is no solution to this in the US.

Lots of stats floating around, but mostly comparing apples and pears. Comparison to road deaths is meaningless.

Mass shootings are indeed more of a global problem and there are complications with compiling and comparing data sources as discussed here External Link/Members Only

However school shootings (the subject of this thread) are the best comparison stats wise and when you look at this criteria alone, the US is off the scale. No other country comes remotely close.

External Link/Members Only

As always the causes are multi factorial, but the primary factor is likely more to do with with a 'mindset' in the US amongst some younger individuals, rather than the availability of guns, although the latter plays its part. The large number of US school shootings, means it almost becomes slightly endemic and 'copycat'. The internet and Social Media plays its part in the mix also.



Offline chrishornx

You are right on most points Doc but this thread dis about mass 'American shootings' in general and not just schools

there is no plausible solution  to the issue