The Politics Thread

[Doc Holliday]

This thread was set up as "containment" during lockdown as some quite unrelated threads were being derailed by pointless political point-scoring.  Before Covid there were actually some threads about 'Why is UKP so right-wing?' etc. Of course, the handful of prolific commenters (who didn't even punt) have since moved on.

I've long been mystified why people try to fix the world by slinging mud at strangers online but even more so when it's done on sex buyers' forum.

In 2024 I started this thread https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=398720.msg4038219#msg4038219

Many only read the title and not my post and thought I wanted to get rid of Off Topic. I didn't ... just politics.

It was really in the hope that people would behave in a civil manner to each other, but when it comes to Politics it seems that is impossible. Then there are those who are here just to troll and be deliberately confrontational 'just for the fun of it'.

Clearly a small percentage of members (an increasingly smaller number) want to discuss Politics so perhaps the answer is to increase the level of moderation in terms of the toxic ad hominem attacks? Ban those who indulge in it. That said I don't want to add to the workload of an overstretched moderation team so perhaps removing political discussion completely is the answer?

Anyway, I made the mistake of starting to post here again fairly recently to try and persuade people to have a more open and civilised discussion. That was arrogant of me and a mistake and I won't make it again.

Best wishes to you all

[bigden40]

nah need you've too far behind the curve

Any way I'm sure you'll be pleased to know. Israel is selling stolen Palestinians land in London

External Link/Members Only

 If you criticise this  .....you hate the Jews / hamas propaganda / denying the holocaust (you can choose  )

Three logical fallacies in one post - false dilemma, a strawman and poisoning the well.   Well done.

People can criticise Israeli government policy, settlement activity, or specific commercial ventures on straightforward legal, ethical, or political grounds without resorting to anti-Semitic tropes, libels or invoking terrorism.  Unfortunately you seem unable to do this as evidenced by post after post after post.

Pre-emptively discrediting any critic by associating their position with the most toxic possible motives before they’ve even spoken is a rhetorical attempt that won’t work here.

You exhibit every toxic trait of a Tommy Robinson, just on the other end of the spectrum.

[Massagemanmr]

In 2024 I started this thread https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=398720.msg4038219#msg4038219

Many only read the title and not my post and thought I wanted to get rid of Off Topic. I didn't ... just politics.

It was really in the hope that people would behave in a civil manner to each other, but when it comes to Politics it seems that is impossible. Then there are those who are here just to troll and be deliberately confrontational 'just for the fun of it'.

Clearly a small percentage of members (an increasingly smaller number) want to discuss Politics so perhaps the answer is to increase the level of moderation in terms of the toxic ad hominem attacks? Ban those who indulge in it. That said I don't want to add to the workload of an overstretched moderation team so perhaps removing political discussion completely is the answer?

Anyway, I made the mistake of starting to post here again fairly recently to try and persuade people to have a more open and civilised discussion. That was arrogant of me and a mistake and I won't make it again.

Best wishes to you all

unfortunately there are some people who don't want to discuss facts in this thread

Eg i post reputable and reliable sources , professor of politics at university, Phd level the response from these types  is "you are racist, you hate the Jews, you love hamas, you love Putin / Russia / china ) fake news etc

So like you said there isn't a sharing of knowledge from reputable sources .  when you point out their worldview is either out of date or wrong they simply can't accept it, so they just insult people.

[Massagemanmr]

Three logical fallacies in one post - false dilemma, a strawman and poisoning the well.   Well done.

People can criticise Israeli government policy, settlement activity, or specific commercial ventures on straightforward legal, ethical, or political grounds without resorting to anti-Semitic tropes, libels or invoking terrorism.  Unfortunately you seem unable to do this as evidenced by post after post after post.

Pre-emptively discrediting any critic by associating their position with the most toxic possible motives before they’ve even spoken is a rhetorical attempt that won’t work here.

You exhibit every toxic trait of a Tommy Robinson, just on the other end of the spectrum.

you just  continue to prove me right every time

[bigden40]

you just  continue to prove me right every time

You're all bluster and no substance.  You haven’t made a single coherent reasoned post in this thread. 

[puntingking]

This thread was set up as "containment" during lockdown as some quite unrelated threads were being derailed by pointless political point-scoring.  Before Covid there were actually some threads about 'Why is UKP so right-wing?' etc. Of course, the handful of prolific commenters (who didn't even punt) have since moved on.

I've long been mystified why people try to fix the world by slinging mud at strangers online but even more so when it's done on sex buyers' forum.

 

[Doc Holliday]

So like you said there isn't a sharing of knowledge from reputable sources .  when you point out their worldview is either out of date or wrong they simply can't accept it, so they just insult people.

Since you arrived you have constantly insulted the intelligence of others. "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[Vice Admiral]

I meant to post this when it appeared in The Times on 1 June, but forgot:
____________

President Trump has announced that he will host the opening ceremony for the concert series marking America’s 250th birthday after several performers dropped out.

The concerts, scheduled to take place from June 25 until July 10 on the National Mall, are among several events planned to commemorate 250 years since the Declaration of Independence.

Trump wrote: “I understand Artists are getting ‘the yips’ … so I am thinking about bringing the Number One Attraction anywhere in the World, the man who gets much larger audiences than Elvis in his prime, and he does so without a guitar, the man who loves our Country more than anyone else, and the man who some say is the Greatest President in History (THE GOAT!), DONALD J. TRUMP, to take the place of these highly paid, Third Rate “Artists,” and give a major speech, rallying the Country forward like I have done ever since being President!”
____________

The thing is ... does Trump just do it to annoy, because he knows it teases? 

Or has he indeed got the biggest ego since Ozymandias?

[Jonestown]

If it's not on medical grounds or an adult decision then it should be 100 per cent banned.

In which case Zack is your man, he’s proposing to ban circumcision for anyone not old enough to be able to make an informed decision. Not sure if he has checked out that policy with his No 2 yet.

[puntingking]

If it's not on medical grounds or an adult decision then it should be 100 per cent banned.

FGM and MGM is also practiced in Christian areas of Africa.

+1

[Charliehutton]

Or has he indeed got the biggest ego since Ozymandias?

Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!


Very apt, VA. It's certainly how millions of people view him, and there's never been any doubt he considers himself the King of Kings.

We don't tend to get a lot of Percy Bysshe on here!

[Vice Admiral]

We don't tend to get a lot of Percy Bysshe on here!

No, sadly not.  I think it's more a Jonathan Swift kind of site:
External Link/Members Only

[Massagemanmr]

Since you arrived you have constantly insulted the intelligence of others. "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

and how would you describe people who repeatedly act in bad faith,

refuse to engage in the facts presented

repeatedly accuse people of being anti semetic / jew hater because they criticise thei israel......?

 

[scutty brown]

and how would you describe people who repeatedly act in bad faith,

refuse to engage in the facts presented

repeatedly accuse people of being anti semetic / jew hater because they criticise thei israel......?

The problem with your question is that the "facts" you purport to present by repeatedly linking to Prof Mersheimer and others are not the "facts" you claim. They are in fact the wet daydreams of a Putin inspired "useful idiot" who is just unthinkingly repeating the disinformation promulgated by the Kremlin propaganda subversion factory.
By repeatedly reciting and reusing such idiotic facts you simply reinforce how completely you and your nominally independent lines of thought have been relegated to yourself being a brain-dead subservient "useful idiot". It doesn't matter how many times you repeat an error or lie: the act of doing so does not turn a lie into an unlie.

[Charliehutton]

No, sadly not.  I think it's more a Jonathan Swift kind of site:
External Link/Members Only

It certainly is! A very interesting read, much obliged to you

[scutty brown]

Don't forget Swift was a Dean within the Church of Ireland - you can't get much more hardline proscriptive than that

[Jerboa]

The problem with your question is that the "facts" you purport to present by repeatedly linking to Prof Mersheimer and others are not the "facts" you claim. They are in fact the wet daydreams of a Putin inspired "useful idiot" who is just unthinkingly repeating the disinformation promulgated by the Kremlin propaganda subversion factory.
By repeatedly reciting and reusing such idiotic facts you simply reinforce how completely you and your nominally independent lines of thought have been relegated to yourself being a brain-dead subservient "useful idiot". It doesn't matter how many times you repeat an error or lie: the act of doing so does not turn a lie into an unlie.

Just because you don't agree with the premise, that the war was provoked, and both Ukraine and Russia should have their national security interests respected, doesn't make the argument disinformation or Putin useful idiots. 

[Charliehutton]

Occasional readers of the Daily Mail - or 'Members of the Far Right' as we're now known - may be familiar with the story that Nottingham City Council has cancelled a children's snail race on the grounds of causing unnecessary suffering to the snails.

I just wonder what this may tell us about Nottingham City Council...

[Jerboa]

The vindication of ‘Sophie of Dundee’

There were many keyboard warriors calling the young girls feral chavs and liars, Humza Useless the irrelevant prick tweeted ""a Bulgarian couple were approached by youths in St Ann Lane, Dundee, on Saturday 23 August" But Stephen-Yaxley Lennon and his racist far-right mob told me migrants tried to sexually assault the girls? Who would have thought a convicted fraudster & liar was talking utter mince?"

Anybody heard from Humza? Has he crawled under a rock? 

Why are working class girls looked down on by the elites as scum?

External Link/Members Only

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Vice Admiral]

Don't forget Swift was a Dean within the Church of Ireland - you can't get much more hardline proscriptive than that

I know little about Jonathan Swift, but fortunately Google AI is better informed.

It seems that Swift may in fact have been, in modern parlance, an “incel” – since historians apparently believe that he remained celibate throughout his life. 

So John Donne is a better candidate to be the punters’ “poet laureate”.  Although also an Anglican clergyman, he seems as a young man to have frequented brothels, as well as writing highly explicit love poetry.

Donne later settled down and married, and he and his wife had ten children (which I suppose suggests that his “settling down” was only up to a point).

[Massagemanmr]

Just because you don't agree with the premise, that the war was provoked, and both Ukraine and Russia should have their national security interests respected, doesn't make the argument disinformation or Putin useful idiots. 

Unfortunately both of these "useful idiots" have been expsoed, instead of engaging with the facts

Bigden40 - when you criticise israel (you hate the jews / anti semetic)

scutty brown - when you present information the war was provoked etc (you are a Putin stooge / Russia propaganda)

It's not a serious engagement with truth and debate etc

Basically these facts are uncomfortable for us - do not engage just attack the person saying saying these points

[Snagbadjer]

Three logical fallacies in one post - false dilemma, a strawman and poisoning the well.   Well done.

People can criticise Israeli government policy, settlement activity, or specific commercial ventures on straightforward legal, ethical, or political grounds without resorting to anti-Semitic tropes, libels or invoking terrorism.  Unfortunately you seem unable to do this as evidenced by post after post after post.

Pre-emptively discrediting any critic by associating their position with the most toxic possible motives before they’ve even spoken is a rhetorical attempt that won’t work here.

You exhibit every toxic trait of a Tommy Robinson, just on the other end of the spectrum.

Is TR's desire to bring attention to the industrial scale rape of white children "toxic"?

[Snagbadjer]

Unfortunately both of these "useful idiots" have been expsoed, instead of engaging with the facts

Bigden40 - when you criticise israel (you hate the jews / anti semetic)

scutty brown - when you present information the war was provoked etc (you are a Putin stooge / Russia propaganda)

It's not a serious engagement with truth and debate etc

Basically these facts are uncomfortable for us - do not engage just attack the person saying saying these points

Expressing the opinion that NATO expanding outwards to the edge of Russia's border may constitute provocation does not automatically make someone a "Putin stooge". But I do fully understand that to simple minds, all opposing views must be regarded as nefarious and those who dare to express them should be dehumanised.

[WARSZAWA16]

Hidden Image/Members Only

[finn5555]

Is TR's desire to bring attention to the industrial scale rape of white children "toxic"?

It is when he only targets foreigners 

[Vice Admiral]

Hidden Image/Members Only

Cleverly referencing Liam Byrne in 2010, succinct and to the point! 

[mills_and_bhuna]

Is TR's desire to bring attention to the industrial scale rape of white children "toxic"?

His desire is to make money and Israel and its useful idiots campaign to attack Muslims just happens to be a good source of funding.
He doesn't give a shit about the girls.
Like you don't give a shit about the girls undergoing FGM .
And like Donald Trumpstein doesn't give a shit about Iranians or Israelis for that matter .
As long as he makes money.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Molly Mae is in the news a lot too. But I don't think about her every minute of the day or argue angrily about her with strangers on a forum about shagging prozzies.

Who?

[mills_and_bhuna]

I wasn’t talking to you 

I didn't mean to start a war on here.
But the main thrust of why I brought male circumcision into it was to point out that Snagbadjer was just using the example of FGM to bolster his anti-Islam tirade.
He doesn't give a fuck about African or Arabic women.
My main issue with male circumcision is it is almost overwhelmingly involuntary and irreversible.

[scutty brown]

Unfortunately both of these "useful idiots" have been expsoed, instead of engaging with the facts

Bigden40 - when you criticise israel (you hate the jews / anti semetic)

scutty brown - when you present information the war was provoked etc (you are a Putin stooge / Russia propaganda)

It's not a serious engagement with truth and debate etc

Basically these facts are uncomfortable for us - do not engage just attack the person saying saying these points

I recognise your words as English, but not the incoherent way in which you have combined them.
Can you try explaining yourself?

[WASA38]

Nonsense.  It’s primarily a consequence of UK government policy.

You're the one who talks nonsense.

Quoting from the stated refernce:

When the Iran war broke out it led to the effective closure of the Strait of Hormuz, a key shipping route for oil tankers, causing crude oil prices to surge.

'The price of a barrel of Brent crude, the international benchmark, has risen as high as $120 since the conflict began, but has fluctuated as hopes of an end to the war have risen and fallen.

On Friday, the price sank to a three-month low of $86 on hopes that a resolution to the conflict could be close.

The increase in oil prices since the start of the war has led to a rise in petrol and diesel prices in the UK. Household energy bills will also increase in the coming months with the energy price cap rising in July.

Oil prices also have a wide-reaching effect on the cost of many goods and services.'

Nothing to do with orange man's war. 

[Charliehutton]

He doesn't give a shit about the girls.

I share your loathing of TR, but alas, he's not the only one not to give a shit about those girls. Nor did the police, social services, local authorities or the whole stinking establishment who were prepared to sacrifice those girls rather than face hysterical accusations of racism or 'Islamophobia'.

[bigden40]

You're the one who talks nonsense.

Quoting from the stated refernce:

When the Iran war broke out it led to the effective closure of the Strait of Hormuz, a key shipping route for oil tankers, causing crude oil prices to surge.

'The price of a barrel of Brent crude, the international benchmark, has risen as high as $120 since the conflict began, but has fluctuated as hopes of an end to the war have risen and fallen.

On Friday, the price sank to a three-month low of $86 on hopes that a resolution to the conflict could be close.

The increase in oil prices since the start of the war has led to a rise in petrol and diesel prices in the UK. Household energy bills will also increase in the coming months with the energy price cap rising in July.

Oil prices also have a wide-reaching effect on the cost of many goods and services.'

Nothing to do with orange man's war. 

I’m well aware of the price of oil. It’s still not the primary driver behind Britain's anaemic, growth even though it will impact inflation, and it undoubtedly will feature high on the list of Rachel's excuses.

Were you aware that oil hit $147 in 2008 (pre-crisis) which would be $210+ in today’s money without causing negative growth?

[bigden40]

Is TR's desire to bring attention to the industrial scale rape of white children "toxic"?

Logical fallacies abound today, you present a false dichotomy.

One can agree that some of his points are valid and still regard the man as toxic based on his behaviour and totality of his expressed views. 

Good men can be wrong some of the time and bad men can be right some of the time.

[Jerboa]

Logical fallacies abound today, you present a false dichotomy.

One can agree that some of his points are valid and still regard the man as toxic based on his behaviour and totality of his expressed views. 

Good men can be wrong some of the time and bad men can be right some of the time.

What of his expressed views do you disagree with?

[webpunter]

On Friday, the price sank to a three-month low of $86 on hopes that a resolution to the conflict could be close.

Petrol & especially diesel prices rapidly head up when oil prices do the same
& very very slowly head south when in reverse

At the start of the Ranian war labour were all over it they'll be monitoring for price gouging & holding the oil companies & distributors to account
I bet they were trembling at the prospect 

The higher the price of oil the higher are vat & fuel duty for The Govt
They've been coining it so its not just Puty Boy who has had an unexpected windfall
To frivolously spend on their fave areas which are

•   benefits for in the main lazy fuckers   
•   a vast & ever increasing number of people to dish out the benefits in local Govt - who should be grateful - everyone knows that these people are so useless that they'll never get jobs in the private sector.  Which takes a decent skill set & effort 
•   & not forgetting the brown tide [edit:  sorry] imports [otherwise known as future voters]   

[Massagemanmr]

I recognise your words as English, but not the incoherent way in which you have combined them.
Can you try explaining yourself?

nah, you understand perfectly well what I'm talking about

[bigden40]

What of his expressed views do you disagree with?

My personal view is that many of the problems he identifies are real and urgently need addressing through honest policy, evidence, and democratic means - but his personal brand, tactics, and baggage make him the wrong messenger. He frequently takes things to extreme, contributes and amplifies a shitload of misinformation and hinders more than he helps by turning a serious debate into a culture-war circus.  I also regard him as a grifter.

I'm not going to answer any follow ups as I have no desire to enter a debate about the man. Happy to have an honest discussion on the issues.

[Snagbadjer]

It is when he only targets foreigners 

Aren't many of the perpetrators British-born? Oops, that's you argument gone.

[Snagbadjer]

His desire is to make money and Israel and its useful idiots campaign to attack Muslims just happens to be a good source of funding.
He doesn't give a shit about the girls.
Like you don't give a shit about the girls undergoing FGM .
And like Donald Trumpstein doesn't give a shit about Iranians or Israelis for that matter .
As long as he makes money.

You come across as unhinged and full of hate.

[Snagbadjer]

My personal view is that many of the problems he identifies are real and urgently need addressing through honest policy, evidence, and democratic means - but his personal brand, tactics, and baggage make him the wrong messenger. He frequently takes things to extreme, contributes and amplifies a shitload of misinformation and hinders more than he helps by turning a serious debate into a culture-war circus.  I also regard him as a grifter.

I'm not going to answer any follow ups as I have no desire to enter a debate about the man. Happy to have an honest discussion on the issues.

When it comes to industrial scale rape of white girls, who is the *right* messenger?

[finn5555]

Aren't many of the perpetrators British-born? Oops, that's you argument gone.

The most prolific perpetrators are white English you just don’t see it in the press as much.

And of course doesn’t plays to Timmy’s right wing rhetoric 

That’s your argument shot fella 

[Snagbadjer]

The most prolific perpetrators are white English you just don’t see it in the press as much.

And of course doesn’t plays to Timmy’s right wing rhetoric 

Name one of the prolific white gangs who have raped tens of thousands of Pakistani girls. Come on, now - they are prolific . . .

[Snagbadjer]

Lot's of visceral hate for little old Tommy Robinson. But I don't see any hatred at all for the child rapists themselves. I think you're terrified of them.

[finn5555]

Name one of the prolific white gangs who have raped tens of thousands of Pakistani girls. Come on, now - they are prolific . . .

Did I say gangs 

Do your research and you will start to learn something mate

[bigden40]

When it comes to industrial scale rape of white girls, who is the *right* messenger?

Take your pick

Maggie Oliver
the late Andrew Norfolk
Rupert Lowe
Nazir Azfal
Ella Hill
Charlie Peters

[Snagbadjer]

Did I say gangs 

Do your research and you will start to learn something mate

So you agree there are no known industrial scale white rape gangs. Glad we agree.

Now, do you hate Pakistani (or British Asian if you prefer) child rape gangs more than you do Tommy Robinson? Your answer will reveal all.

[bigden40]

Lot's of visceral hate for little old Tommy Robinson. But I don't see any hatred at all for the child rapists themselves. I think you're terrified of them.

You must be blind, wilfully or otherwise. 

It isn’t a binary, it’s possible to hate both.

[finn5555]

Lot's of visceral hate for little old Tommy Robinson. But I don't see any hatred at all for the child rapists themselves. I think you're terrified of them.

Plenty of hatred for any sex offenders 

[Snagbadjer]

Take your pick

Maggie Oliver
the late Andrew Norfolk
Rupert Lowe
Nazir Azfal
Ella Hill
Charlie Peters

Rupert wants to deport them all along with the families who facilitated the rapes. Bet that irritates the hell out of the punters on here.