Author Topic: Rental e-scooters to be made legal on roads on Saturday  (Read 4905 times)

Offline LLPunting

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True what you say about the average speed of city traffic being slower than a bike. The last time I rode a bike in London (many years ago, and yes, it was horrible) I simply caught back up with all the cars that had rushed past to overtake me, at the next set of lights. And of course I would cruise slowly to the front before they went Green  :rolleyes:.

No-one seemed to realise the futility of what they were doing (overtaking me sometimes inappropriately and dangerously) and the same cars would be in my vicinity 20mins down the road.

Re: bike lanes, apart from the (much rarer) curbed-off ones which would physically contain you as a cyclist, the ones which are simply painted onto the road don't restrict cyclists from briefly exiting them to overtake a fellow cyclist if need be. Of course, and cyclist doing this should either have a mirror fitted or make sure they glance over their shoulder to check it's safe to do so.

I had no idea these scooters were so damned heavy, but I guess just like the Boris Bikes, they have to be heavily over-engineered to survive the sheer abuse they'll receive in use, unlike something which you might own yourself. Quite right what you say about the momentum these things will carry in the event of a collision (Momentum = Mass x Speed or something?). Something heavy will cause a lot more damage, although it does also mean that the acceleration will be blunted somewhat.

There have been a couple of instances over the last few years, of cyclists in London (on 'ordinary' bikes), hitting pedestrians who were either looking down at their phones or simply misjudged their speed, walking out into the road and being hit. From memory, one died after falling badly and hitting her head, the other suffered a degree of brain damage?

Of course normally a car in such a collision would do more damage, but a bike is less easily seen, heard, and the speed is harder to judge. It will be the same with these scooters.

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As mentioned earlier e-scooters will be able to run a 500W motor, twice the power of e-bikes.  Their potential for acceleration is going to be dangerous.

The extra weight, whilst assisting with braking adhesion, is a liability too.  It will have nothing to do with particular robustness, it will allow a stupid amount of battery so range will be pretty great but that's only to allow the things to be left all over the place and ready to ride without needing constant recharging.  So it's all in the interest of the operating companies.  55kgs may be some deterrent to casual theft but once someone figures out how to disable any GPS tracking that'll be open season on those things being nicked for use/sale rather than "vandalous" littering in waterways, etc.

If these set a precedent for private scooters then the whole EPV landscape will be a mess.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 03:40:21 am by LLPunting »

Offline winkywanky

Yeah she just walked off of the pavement into the flow of traffic while the red man was on.  Aliston shouted at her and since she was already a few m into the road, he continued cycling close to the kerb, but when she heard him shout, she tried to jump back onto the pavement and ended up going in front of him. 

The stopping distance of a vehicle at 30mph would have been double that of Aliston at 18mph, so if a vehicle had hit her she would have probably died as well.  And just been a statistic, due to Alisotns comments on social media on the evening after the incident, the courts decided to make an example of him.  A valuble lesson here for other cyclists, if you hit somebody, get back on the bike and disappear quickly.



The limiting factor is not grip unless there is very little grip such as on wet grass.  As the brakes are applied, the equal and opposite force is for the rider and frame to try to rotate forward to counter the fact the wheel is decreasing in speed.  This then means more and more load is on the front tyre, until the rear tyre lifts from the road.  A rider will naturally push against on the bars and lower there bum to move weight rearwards to counter the force.  There is a sweet spot with the riders weight pushed back and low, with the rear tyre about 3" off the road at which the maximum retardation of speed will occur.  Brake any harder at this point and the rider will go over the bars.  This point of maximum speed retardation was studied by MIT, and using the calculation they dervived, at 18mph Aliston would have needed 6.25m to stop at an absolute minimum, so the coppers with 3m were miles off. 

An MTB with disc brakes actually is worse at stopping because when the suspension fork compresses the sweet spot for going over the bars arrives sooner, plus with some of the 203mm rotors on the front of MTBs, the power of the brakes  mean this can be achieved with a single finger on the brake lever.  The reason MTBs have such big brakes is for longevity on big descents, so that the brakes don't over heat from prolonged use.  This is why the recent trend for road bikes to have tiny disc brakes instead of using rim brakes has its pros and cons.  The biggest con being if you are cycling in winter down a long hill and need to drag a brake to prevent going to fast, the brake heats up to soon and melts the brake piston seals, been there done that.


You sound like a pukka cyclist Mr. Sub  :)

Re: your comment about riding off after an incident lest you should be unfairly blamed, I'm not sure whether you were joking? But that's never a good idea IMO, apart from being immoral you'd likely be caught anyway if the accident proved to be serious, and leaving the scene of an accident would make matters worse. And if you'd done nothing wrong, surely better to stand your ground than run? And obviously, assist with the aftermath if required!

In Alliston's case he was knowingly (I think?) riding an illegal bike because it was 'cool', and I would wager that although he'd still have hit the woman who stepped out in front of him had he correctly had a front brake, I think he'd have theoretically been able to reduce his speed slightly better than simply backpedalling. Whether this would have had any real effect on the tragic outcome is a moot point, but the fact of the illegal bike, spouting his mouth off on social media, and his apparent initial cavalier attitude and overall appearance as a gobby young twat, won't have done his case any good at all.

I get your point about going over the handlebars if braking hard, but in my personal experience the brakes on my bike aren't aggressive enough to achieve that if I'm sitting down, and even with sitting down the rear brake will lose grip and lock out on the road quite early, even on a dry road. The MIT calculation you quote seems intuitively about right, about a stopping distance of 6.25m at 18mph.

Your point about the front suspension on a MTB is totally valid but of course if you were on a road or hard/smooth surface and had the suspension locked then the bike would behave more akin to a standard roadbike?

The overall point in all of this though I think, is that being on a bike you should be just as responsible a road user as if you were in a car. Your bike should be legal and properly maintained, and you should be alert to other roadusers and even pavement-bound pedestrians, because they are liable to do something silly in front of you, especially if you're travelling fast. I see a lot of pedestrians underestimating the speed of pushbikes, on the occasions I've been in London just walking along, it's apparent that being part of a stream of motor traffic means you get swept along, and speeds of 20mph+ are commonplace. It's as if you're riding with a big tailwind, as a pedestrian you can actually feel the 'whoosh' of passing traffic.

Offline winkywanky

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As mentioned earlier e-scooters will be able to run a 500W motor, twice the power of e-bikes.  Their potential for acceleration is going to be dangerous.

The extra weight, whilst assisting with braking adhesion, is a liability too.  It will have nothing to do with particular robustness, it will allow a stupid amount of battery so range will be pretty great but that's only to allow the things to be left all over the place and ready to ride without needing constant recharging.  So it's all in the interest of the operating companies.  55kgs may be some deterrent to casual theft but once someone figures out how to disable any GPS tracking that'll be open season on those things being nicked for use/sale rather than "vandalous" littering in waterways, etc.

If these set a precedent for private scooters then the whole EPV landscape will be a mess.


I do hope they're consulting people in the know about this stuff, like Chris Boardman. But I suspect not!

Offline sub_marine

As mentioned earlier e-scooters will be able to run a 500W motor, twice the power of e-bikes.  Their potential for acceleration is going to be dangerous.

The extra weight, whilst assisting with braking adhesion, is a liability too.  It will have nothing to do with particular robustness, it will allow a stupid amount of battery so range will be pretty great but that's only to allow the things to be left all over the place and ready to ride without needing constant recharging.  So it's all in the interest of the operating companies.  55kgs may be some deterrent to casual theft but once someone figures out how to disable any GPS tracking that'll be open season on those things being nicked for use/sale rather than "vandalous" littering in waterways, etc.

If these set a precedent for private scooters then the whole EPV landscape will be a mess.

The reason for the bigger motor than a E-bicycle is pretty basic.  An E-bicycle must be primarily powered by pedalling and the motor can only assist, if you stop pedalling the assist will cut out.  If the motor can operate without force on the pedals then technically it should be registered as a motorbike and have a number plate and insurance, along with a licensed rider.  The E-scooter riders cant provide any assistance for the motion so the motor has to be bigger to provide all the energy of propulsion

A GPS jammer is cheap, and for short range can be the size of a mobile phone.  Just walk up to the scooter, switch on the jammer and keep the jammer within close proximity to the scooter as you load it in a van and take away to have the GPS disabled properly.  Pretty sure it will just be a case of flashing on new software that cancels out the part in which it contacts the HQ every few seconds

Offline Avg_Joe

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the simple fact is that slow moving, pothole prone vehicles, that can't maintain the flow of traffic, seem to have the right to "filter" as someone put it through traffic whilst weaving in and out of lanes between cars, are simply a hazard, they're a fucking pain to get past at times, and to stop them weaving in and out people leave no space between other vehicles (a bit like on the motorway, if you leave anything like the recommended distance, you are going to be constantly on and off your brakes as people wil pull out forcing you to slow down!) ten when traffic slows they find whatever way they can to get to the front of the queue to wait in their little box, and the whole fucking nightmare of trying to avoid running the cunts over starts again stick em on the path and let them be responsible for avoiding pedestrians, just like other road users are currently responsible for avoiding them

« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 04:11:41 pm by Avg_Joe »
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Offline lostandfound

Just drive a bit slower and pay attention, and all will be fine.

Offline sub_marine

the simple fact is that slow moving, pothole prone vehicles, that can't maintain the flow of traffic, seem to have the right to "filter" as someone put it through traffic whilst weaving in and out of lanes between cars, are simply a hazard, they're a fucking pain to get past at times, and to stop them weaving in and out people leave no space between other vehicles (a bit like on the motorway, if you leave anything like the recommended distance, you are going to be constantly on and off your brakes as people wil pull out forcing you to slow down!) ten when traffic slows they find whatever way they can to get to the front of the queue to wait in their little box, and the whole fucking nightmare of trying to avoid running the cunts over starts again stick em on the path and let them be responsible for avoiding pedestrians, just like other road users are currently responsible for avoiding them

The very fact that certin modes of transport are able to filter is because other modes of transport like to keep stopping in queues forming traffic jams.  If you choose to take a car into a city, of course your going to get stuck in traffic jams, and bikes and scooters will be filtering through.  How about all the cyclists drove a car 1 day around the city as well, your traffic jams would be twice as long.