Rental e-scooters to be made legal on roads on Saturday

[David1970]

Must look into how the road use laws are different in Holland, Belgium, France etc.

I think it is a cultural thing

[Londonpunter30]

I agree that cyclists in the UK tended to be inconsiderate and break the law with impunity, but not so in mainland Europe.

Driving standards in general have gone downhill.  Indicators seem option now, or even worse turned on after the move has been completed.

I’m a cyclist and car driver, at a busy 4 way junction near me, Amber seems to mean speed up to get through the lights and hope it doesn’t turn red, red seems to mean go and hope the other light hasn’t turned green yet.  It’s ironic when a cyclist can slow down and stop and a car jumps the lights.

There are those that obey the rules and those that don’t, that applies to all road users, even pedestrians who cross the road within sight of a crossing but run across in front of traffic instead

[winkywanky]

Must look into how the road use laws are different in Holland, Belgium, France etc.

I'm pretty sure that one difference, is that in 'mainland EU' (I think France, Belgium, Germany, Italy?) if a cyclist is involved in a RTA with a car, then for insurance purposes the car is deemed to be 'at fault' unless it can be proven otherwise.

This means that the cyclist effectively has insurance cover when in collision with a car, provided by the driver's policy.

This sounds a bit gormless until you consider that in the vast majority of such events, the car is at fault in any case, either through a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre, or simply ploughing into the back of the cyclist.

I couldn't see that going down too well in this country though  .

[winkywanky]

Driving standards in general have gone downhill.  Indicators seem option now, or even worse turned on after the move has been completed.

I’m a cyclist and car driver, at a busy 4 way junction near me, Amber seems to mean speed up to get through the lights and hope it doesn’t turn red, red seems to mean go and hope the other light hasn’t turned green yet.  It’s ironic when a cyclist can slow down and stop and a car jumps the lights.

There are those that obey the rules and those that don’t, that applies to all road users, even pedestrians who cross the road within sight of a crossing but run across in front of traffic instead

That's about the size of it, there are complete dicks/inconsiderate twats in cars, on bikes or on foot.

All that means is that if there's at all a coming-together between them, the motorist will come off less badly.

It also means that if you're on a bike or on foot (especially the former), you have to concentrate a lot harder to keep yourself safe.

[lostandfound]

As a former petrol head I approve of the 20 mph limits in urban areas where space is shared with pedestrians and cyclists (and scooters). My attitude when driving the car is that cars have become guests in this environment and by default I give way to other road users. As a pedestrian I find this is increasingly the attitude shown by drivers I encounter - though not all, particularly around peak commuting hours when I often see drivers behaving aggressively towards other road users.

[Squire Haggard]

As a former petrol head I approve of the 20 mph limits in urban areas where space is shared with pedestrians and cyclists (and scooters). My attitude when driving the car is that cars have become guests in this environment and by default I give way to other road users. As a pedestrian I find this is increasingly the attitude shown by drivers I encounter - though not all, particularly around peak commuting hours when I often see drivers behaving aggressively towards other road users.

White van man especially, plus any van or car, is desperate to get back to their wanking chariot at home from their shitty downtrodden jobs. Not a good time to be on the roads for me.

[Avg_Joe]

another fucking road using device, that wont pay fuck all for roads upkeep, can't maintain traffic flow and changes direction at the slightest pot hole, we will see hundreds of the fuckwits killed before the end of the year.

i'll give it less that a month before someone gets pancaked by a bus.

fucking bicycles, scooters and walkers have no fucking place on the roads

[Londonpunter30]

another fucking road using device, that wont pay fuck all for roads upkeep, can't maintain traffic flow and changes direction at the slightest pot hole, we will see hundreds of the fuckwits killed before the end of the year.

i'll give it less that a month before someone gets pancaked by a bus.

fucking bicycles, scooters and walkers have no fucking place on the roads

VED doesn’t pay for the roads, local roads are funded by council tax.  The argument that cyclists don’t pay road tax is entirely false, plus most cyclists also own a car and pay vehicle excise duty on it

[lostandfound]

White van man especially, plus any van or car, is desperate to get back to their wanking chariot at home from their shitty downtrodden jobs. Not a good time to be on the roads for me.

Yeah - but on the upside they are on borrowed time. For example my local high street has just put in place temporary barriers to narrow the road on each side, restricting the space for vehicles and making more space for cyclists and pedestrians. And aggressive drivers who speed are about to have their wings clipped - External Link/Members Only

[Avg_Joe]

good job we wont be part of the eu by then lol, although it sounds like they will try and enforce it.


there's so many legal issues with that kind of blanket thing, a car stopped from accelerating out of danger is going to cause some massive legal claims and issues, and over-riding by using a similar thing to an autos kick down switch is just as likely to cause over acceleration.
automated emergency braking also has issues, one failure and the car does an emergency stop on a busy motorway and you have a mass pile-up, you are talking systems that would have to be as fail safe as aviation standards, and i don't think they are there yet with the tech, cars simply go wrong too often, to give full control to the systems like that

[lostandfound]

There are a whole range of safety systems mandated by the EU for 2022 MY -

- Advanced automatic emergency braking systems

- Lane departure warning systems

- Intelligent speed assistance

- Alcohol interlock installation facilitation

- Driver drowsiness and attention warning

- Advanced driver distraction warning

- Emergency stop signal

- Reversing cameras or detectors

- Accident data recorder

External Link/Members Only

A number of these are fitted to the car I bought new last year, and have been no problem. There'd have to be something wrong with my driving to trigger warnings or interventions. Drive sensibly and you never know they are there.

[David1970]

There are a whole range of safety systems mandated by the EU for 2022 MY -

External Link/Members Only

A number of these are fitted to the car I bought new last year, and have been no problem. There'd have to be something wrong with my driving to trigger warnings or interventions. Drive sensibly and you never know they are there.

The UK being a member of the EU will not effect the new regulations, the cars will will be built to EU regulations, because the majority will be sold in the EU. They won’t have one production line for the EU and a different one for the UK.

[cunningman]

The UK being a member of the EU will not effect the new regulations, the cars will will be built to EU regulations, because the majority will be sold in the EU. They won’t have one production line for the EU and a different one for the UK.

In a sense that's true, but cars for sale here have the steering wheel on the other side and speedo in miles per hour.  The electronics will definitely be different, and there is no reason for a manufacturer not to disable it in RHD models if the market wants it.

[David1970]

In a sense that's true, but cars for sale here have the steering wheel on the other side and speedo in miles per hour.  The electronics will definitely be different, and there is no reason for a manufacturer not to disable it in RHD models if the market wants it.

Personally I have no problem with new safety technology in cars , I don’t see why people would be against them.
It must have been like that when seatbelts or airbags were first fitted, people would say why do we need them.

[lostandfound]

In a sense that's true, but cars for sale here have the steering wheel on the other side and speedo in miles per hour.  The electronics will definitely be different, and there is no reason for a manufacturer not to disable it in RHD models if the market wants it.

As regards the electronics being different, I would disagree. Switching between km/h and mph is done in software and has been in cars for decades.

NCAP ratings will be better and insurance premiums will be lower with these safety systems in place, and public opinion will be massively in favour of them, IMO.

[Avg_Joe]

There are a whole range of safety systems mandated by the EU for 2022 MY -

Quote from: Autocar
- Advanced automatic emergency braking systems

- Lane departure warning systems

- Intelligent speed assistance

- Alcohol interlock installation facilitation

- Driver drowsiness and attention warning

- Advanced driver distraction warning

- Emergency stop signal

- Reversing cameras or detectors

- Accident data recorder

External Link/Members Only

A number of these are fitted to the car I bought new last year, and have been no problem. There'd have to be something wrong with my driving to trigger warnings or interventions. Drive sensibly and you never know they are there.

Most of those items are "assistance or warning" not take control devices, and i have no problem with that.


As for the "they wont run 2 production lines for 2 countries" they already do in a way, ignoring the obvious left vs right hand drive arguments, mercedes have different wiring looms based on everything from vehicle options to country intended for, many of those things can be controlled from software, for example they used to supply (don't know if it's changed) UK cars with analogue speedos that only displayed in Mph, and forced the Kph into the digital display to be on all the time, that was what was called "uk mode" and could be disabled by those with the equipment and knowledge, rear light clusters are different based on intended market, with fog lights on the opposite side, but not only that, you'll also find the wiring loom is different.

Many of these physical differences are already built in, and those new things are electronic based, and as such could be controlled easily enough.


My main problem comes with the fact that all of these systems are blind to what is happening up ahead on the road, you may drift out of lane on a motorway deliberately to avoid debris in your lane, fine, beep to tell me i've left the lane, but i do not want it taking control and turning me back into it, or someone could come from the left (or right) forcing you to change lanes, i don't want it turning back in because a sensor or camera was dirty, and it hadn't seen the danger.
The emergency braking things right now i think are limited to slow speed scenarios, and at higher speeds deploy brake lights and hazard lights, not actually take control. there are so many safety scenarios where i would question the robustness of the fail safe systems, in addition to that, the more we rely on electronic solutions, the more problems they present, cars are now starting to become vulnerable to outside interference from hackers.


Back to the original e-scooters thing, just one interesting question, why is it ok for companies to bu and hire out ones for use on the road but those that have purchased them can't use them on the road?.... is it because they have to conform with speed limitations ? or am i missing something else that allows for the discrimination ?

[lostandfound]

I think you are out of date on "physical differences". Mercedes have eliminated many wiring looms in favour of fibre optic networking in their cars, which is why for example you can no longer fit an aftermarket stereo to a recent Mercedes model.

WLTP has also resulted in many fewer build differences in cars as each minor build difference has to be separately certified under WLTP. This is why BMW now sells just a few option packs instead of offering a myriad of different options in their configurator.

Car manufacturers now favour having one build with most options already fitted to every car as it's much cheaper and simpler and eliminates doing many costly type approvals. Options already fitted to the car have to be enabled in software in exchange for the customer paying a fee. Tesla have done this for a while, and BMW have just announced they are transitioning to it, and it will be enabled in the latest over-the-air software update to their cars.

Many instrument clusters are now all digital and no longer have physical speedos. Cars have pretty much become computers on wheels.

Hardening car systems to resist hacks will be done, though it is an area where even Tesla need to improve.

[hungrypunt]

We are talking as if the road is going to be suddenly blocked by wave after wave of scooters, probably be lucky to see 1 on the commute if you live outside the major cities which are already crammed with cars spewing out shite and crawling along at a snails pace, so scooters will be whizzing by these cars not other other way round anyway.

its no biggie for me

[DrGFreeman]

i had assumed it was only rental scooters as rental company will :
have insurance
have your details / credit card
have your driving licence so you can be prosecuted for doing something you shouldnt on the public highway

I can see the advantage for short commutes
but has the same disadvantage as pedal bikes that there are so few cycle lanes in the UK
I have a short commute but rarely cycle as it feels like dicing with death on a bike competing with the rush hour traffic
these scooter will be on the pavement

[j_181]

these scooter will be on the pavement

I dont think that's true...

External Link/Members Only

We propose to allow e-scooters to use the same road space as cycles and EAPCs. This means e-scooters would be allowed on the road (except motorways) and in cycle lanes and tracks, where possible

[Avg_Joe]

We are talking as if the road is going to be suddenly blocked by wave after wave of scooters, probably be lucky to see 1 on the commute if you live outside the major cities which are already crammed with cars spewing out shite and crawling along at a snails pace, so scooters will be whizzing by these cars not other other way round anyway.

its no biggie for me

it doesn't need wave after wave, it only needs one person that thinks they know what they are doing, with little or no training, and they'll get killed and their stupidity will not be given as the reason, the poor other road user will get blamed. More than likely it'll be someone thinking just because they are on one of these, much like bikes, they should be able to make a lane where there isn't one and jump to the front f the queue, what will happen is they'll jump out in front of something that flattens them

they won't be on the pavement, isnt there thing about no motorised vehicles of any description on combined cyclepaths/footpaths ?

[DrGFreeman]

I dont think that's true...
External Link/Members Only

I agree that govt advice is for scooters to use the roads
but I suspect that after a while of dodging potholes, going around buses, white vans trying to run them off the road, breathing exhaust fumes - they'll ride on the pavement instead
lets see how its policed

[sub_marine]

i had assumed it was only rental scooters as rental company will :
have insurance
have your details / credit card
have your driving licence so you can be prosecuted for doing something you shouldnt on the public highway

Also the e-scooters have GPS, so if somebody wants to know who has wronged them they can contact the police who will then look at CCTV to work out the exact time and location of the incident and check that it matches a rental scooter, the rental firm insurance policy will then cover any damages if deemed at fault.  Thats why private scooters are not included in this trial, as there is no way to track them.  Elephant in the room being the lack of enforcement, plus if I buy a e-scooter from china for £300 which looks very similar to the rental versions, even if police did exist, they wouldnt bat an eyelid

More than likely it'll be someone thinking just because they are on one of these, much like bikes, they should be able to make a lane where there isn't one and jump to the front f the queue, what will happen is they'll jump out in front of something that flattens them

I presume your talking about whats called filtering, fully legal and to be expected, especially in busy situations where bigger traffic is slower than the speed of a bicycle.  If your not aware of your surroundings and checking mirrors in a busy city your an idiot.  Its also a lot safer for bicycles to be visable at the head of stopped traffic in the ASL box, than buried deep in traffic in somebodies blind spot, hence why ASL boxes have been painted everywhere about 20 years ago.

There are a whole range of safety systems mandated by the EU for 2022 MY -

- Advanced automatic emergency braking systems

- Lane departure warning systems

- Intelligent speed assistance

- Alcohol interlock installation facilitation

- Driver drowsiness and attention warning

- Advanced driver distraction warning

- Emergency stop signal

- Reversing cameras or detectors

- Accident data recorder

A number of these are fitted to the car I bought new last year, and have been no problem. There'd have to be something wrong with my driving to trigger warnings or interventions. Drive sensibly and you never know they are there.

Yet not one mention of a way to prevent drivers f***ing about on phones instead of concentrating on the road around them.  But to be fair the courts 99% judge in favour of the killer motorist when they plough into somebody else while on the phone

As for the "they wont run 2 production lines for 2 countries" they already do in a way, ignoring the obvious left vs right hand drive arguments, mercedes have different wiring looms based on everything from vehicle options to country intended for, many of those things can be controlled from software, for example they used to supply (don't know if it's changed)

Maybe in the 90s mate, but since everything went CAN-bus, everything was way more simplified, if your assembling an S-class in 37 mins there no time for loads of different parts.  The parts are the same then just program the software, as you say only the RHD/LHD differs, rest is programmed in software

The emergency braking things right now i think are limited to slow speed scenarios, and at higher speeds deploy brake lights and hazard lights, not actually take control. there are so many safety scenarios where i would question the robustness of the fail safe systems, in addition to that, the more we rely on electronic solutions, the more problems they present, cars are now starting to become vulnerable to outside interference from hackers.

Assisted braking has been available since 2000, controlled by the ABS pump, if the module detects you doing an emergency stop, it will apply the brake harder to make you stop quicker, and as your foot pressure lifts off it will stop the assistance.  This only comes into play when people are not paying attention, and VBH despised some early versions which were too sensitive when driving vigourously as it intervened when not required

Back to the original e-scooters thing, just one interesting question, why is it ok for companies to bu and hire out ones for use on the road but those that have purchased them can't use them on the road?.... is it because they have to conform with speed limitations ? or am i missing something else that allows for the discrimination ?

As above, the private ones are untrackable, so nobody can be held to account when things go wrong

[daviemac]

I presume your talking about whats called filtering, fully legal and to be expected, especially in busy situations where bigger traffic is slower than the speed of a bicycle.  If your not aware of your surroundings and checking mirrors in a busy city your an idiot. 

Judging by the reaction of a lot of numpty car drivers, trying to block you off etc, some don't realise that it is perfectly legal for a motobike to filter through stationary or slow moving traffic as well.

[lostandfound]

The emergency braking things right now i think are limited to slow speed scenarios, and at higher speeds deploy brake lights and hazard lights, not actually take control. there are so many safety scenarios where i would question the robustness of the fail safe systems, in addition to that, the more we rely on electronic solutions, the more problems they present, cars are now starting to become vulnerable to outside interference from hackers.

Your info on Advanced Emergency Braking is out of date. Many systems now work up to 105 km/h (around 65 mph) and up to 200 km/h around 125 mph if adaptive cruise has been fitted to the car.

[hungrypunt]

it doesn't need wave after wave, it only needs one person that thinks they know what they are doing, with little or no training, and they'll get killed and their stupidity will not be given as the reason, the poor other road user will get blamed. More than likely it'll be someone thinking just because they are on one of these, much like bikes, they should be able to make a lane where there isn't one and jump to the front f the queue, what will happen is they'll jump out in front of something that flattens them

they won't be on the pavement, isnt there thing about no motorised vehicles of any description on combined cyclepaths/footpaths ?

MEh, storm in a teacup as far as Im concerned, there are just as many careless twats on foot, bikes, as on motorbikes, as on a  horse, as in cars, as in vans, as in lorries. Yeah yeah those in cars have a protective cage, this maybe makes some of them more of a twat.

needs one person that thinks they know what they are doing, with little or no training, and they'll get killed and their stupidity will not be given as the reason, the poor other road user will get blamed

not true all RTAs have to be investigated.

what will happen is they'll jump out in front of something that flattens them

theylll die or be seriously injured and possibly cause similar due to their own stupidity

But doesnt make EVERY single person who rides a bike/scooter or horse a nob

Saw a young lad and his little blonde piece on one today 2 up LOL.....he was groping her tits riding along while she steered giggling. NOW THATS Stupid...but she was fit like

[sub_marine]

Good point. In Europe, cyclists are also better behaved in my experience and are treated with more respect (maybe not in Rome - it's a free for all there). I think it's more than just Brits not liking scooters: our current infrastructure was designed for motor vehicles and people whereas a lot of Europen cities were built with cycling in mind. I sense that we Brits believe we are the king of the road irrespective of which tarmac we're on and what mode of transportation we're using.

European cities were all designed around horse & carts, its just that WWII forced a rebuild in some cities to 1950 standards, which was an era where bicycles were still important.  Most British cities were not bombed enough to require a complete rebuild, only one I can think of was Plymouth.  If you look at Amsterdam, it was designed for canal boats and horses.  It was only into the 60s-70s that they started putting big roads through the city, but then the citizens revoulted, and now in Amsterdam most of the those big roads have been removed.  If you've walked from Amsterdams central station down through Dam Square and beyond in the last few years compared to 20 years ago it completely changed, for the good.  So peacefull to sit outside in a summer evening dining in Amsterdam and not hear any traffic except cyclist and the whirr or the electric trams.

Most British cities are still run by councils who are planning the next multi million pound dual carriage way through the heart of the city.  The mentality of the road designers in UK is all geared to benefit motorists, not the population as a whole.  Residents who live in city centres are having the landscape in which the live being designed to please the people who live in the suburbs.

[sub_marine]

not true all RTAs have to be investigated.

Only if an ambulance is called, you'll struggle to even get poice to attend a minor crash unless one of the drivers is drunk

Rental scooters are allowed to use up to 500W motors and weigh up to 55kg, so they're going to be electronically limited to 15.5 mph, nothing said about their acceleration profile.  How long before someone posts a YouTube hack or even worse an app to just unlock the limiter?

Average London journey speed is <10mph so no reason for the scooters to do anything more than 10 mph.

The speed limit has to be around the 15mph as that is the average speed of an average cyclist.  If the cycle lanes are filled with scooters doing 10mph then the cyclist will just choose to avoid the cycle lanes and use the roads, whch tens to wind drivers up even more

And all eBicycles can be chipped, not cheap, but possible.  External Link/Members Only

[sparkus]

European cities were all designed around horse & carts, its just that WWII forced a rebuild in some cities to 1950 standards, which was an era where bicycles were still important.  Most British cities were not bombed enough to require a complete rebuild, only one I can think of was Plymouth.  If you look at Amsterdam, it was designed for canal boats and horses.  It was only into the 60s-70s that they started putting big roads through the city, but then the citizens revoulted, and now in Amsterdam most of the those big roads have been removed.  If you've walked from Amsterdams central station down through Dam Square and beyond in the last few years compared to 20 years ago it completely changed, for the good.  So peacefull to sit outside in a summer evening dining in Amsterdam and not hear any traffic except cyclist and the whirr or the electric trams.

Most British cities are still run by councils who are planning the next multi million pound dual carriage way through the heart of the city.  The mentality of the road designers in UK is all geared to benefit motorists, not the population as a whole.  Residents who live in city centres are having the landscape in which the live being designed to please the people who live in the suburbs.

Birmingham was completely rebuilt after WW2, motorways through the city centre, Spaghetti Junction and all that.  Newcastle also suffered the same fate in the name of slum clearance.  It's historic cities like Leicester and Norwich which are harder to navigate (hard to believe but Birmingham is quite a new city).

I think the dual carriageway thing is more the smaller cities and big towns, the bigger cities are actually being offered shedloads of government subsidy to 'decarbonise' their centres in favour of pedestrians, cycles and electric vehicles.  A mate works for a big firm who are something to do with removing all the cars from Cardiff (an obvious pun in that).  It makes economic sense as if the city or town centre is more welcoming (e.g. car-free) then people are more likely to visit there to shop, socialise etc.

[lostandfound]

Centres of Bristol and Liverpool were more or less flattened by the Luftwaffe; and Coventry - the "inspiration" for Bomber Harris' terrifying Dresden raid in which people walking along the street spontaneously burst into flames, so intense was the heat from the bombing.

[From e-scooters to the Blitz in a few short posts!]

[sparkus]

Centres of Bristol and Liverpool were more or less flattened by the Luftwaffe; and Coventry - the "inspiration" for Bomber Harris' terrifying Dresden raid in which people walking along the street spontaneously burst into flames, so intense was the heat from the bombing.

[From e-scooters to the Blitz in a few short posts!]

Well we now know thanks to Alan Patridge that Norwich has the highest number of pre-Reformation churches in any European city following the bombing of Leipzig.

This was a much-quoted film in primary school: External Link/Members Only

[hungrypunt]

Only if an ambulance is called, you'll struggle to even get poice to attend a minor crash unless one of the drivers is drunk
The speed limit has to be around the 15mph as that is the average speed of an average cyclist.  If the cycle lanes are filled with scooters doing 10mph then the cyclist will just choose to avoid the cycle lanes and use the roads, whch tens to wind drivers up even more

And all eBicycles can be chipped, not cheap, but possible.  External Link/Members Only

Good post

[LLPunting]

Only if an ambulance is called, you'll struggle to even get poice to attend a minor crash unless one of the drivers is drunk
The speed limit has to be around the 15mph as that is the average speed of an average cyclist.  If the cycle lanes are filled with scooters doing 10mph then the cyclist will just choose to avoid the cycle lanes and use the roads, whch tens to wind drivers up even more

And all eBicycles can be chipped, not cheap, but possible.  External Link/Members Only

The average city speed is below the claimed average cycling speed you state so whether a cyclist is using the road or a cycle lane means that they are the ones inconvenienced by the slower traffic motorised.
If the bike lanes are wide enough for passing then there's no reason that proper sharing of the lane wouldn't allow faster cycle traffic to pass.

If the scooters are going to be as heavy as 55 kg, the average bike is what 13-15 kg at most.  So if the riders are comparable then getting hit by a 60kg twat on a scooter is going to have c40kg more mass and there fore about 2/3 more energy than a collision with same twat on a bike at same speed.  If the collision with the cyclist is enough to break bones or even kill someone then that likelihood will increase with more energy in the impact.

Would be interesting to see the modelling of the crash dynamics.  Bikes hitting people might be more a collision with the front wheel with the mass of the rider perhaps pitching over/around the pedestrian.  Scooter hitting person would perhaps deliver the rider into the pedestrian. 

[LLPunting]

...

If the scooters are going to be as heavy as 55 kg, the average bike is what 13-15 kg at most.  So if the riders are comparable then getting hit by a 60kg twat on a ...

My bad, 60kg is a little light as it's under 10 stone, so let's go for 100Kg or a little under 16 stone.  Still getting hit by 40% more energy on the heavier scooter.

If you're a 4 minute miler then you're doing what the scooters will be doing.  Most people don't get past 15 mph running, a pacey jog is 7-8 mph, so imagine yourself running twice as fast as your jog with 40kg on your back and into another person.

Already seen several e-scooters being ridden around the local pedestrian shopping areas because there are no signs to say not to.  No bikes doing this because the signs are up.

[sub_marine]

The average city speed is below the claimed average cycling speed you state so whether a cyclist is using the road or a cycle lane means that they are the ones inconvenienced by the slower traffic motorised.
If the bike lanes are wide enough for passing then there's no reason that proper sharing of the lane wouldn't allow faster cycle traffic to pass.

Most segregated cycle lanes are too narrow to pass, especially if they have both direction of traffic within the same lane, typically this style of cycle lane will be 1m per direction and a dashed line in the middle just like a mini road.  These e-scooters will be in the biggest busiest cities so expect experianced cyclists to srart avoiding segregated cycle lanes.

If the scooters are going to be as heavy as 55 kg, the average bike is what 13-15 kg at most.  So if the riders are comparable then getting hit by a 60kg twat on a scooter is going to have c40kg more mass and there fore about 2/3 more energy than a collision with same twat on a bike at same speed.  If the collision with the cyclist is enough to break bones or even kill someone then that likelihood will increase with more energy in the impact.

Would be interesting to see the modelling of the crash dynamics.  Bikes hitting people might be more a collision with the front wheel with the mass of the rider perhaps pitching over/around the pedestrian.  Scooter hitting person would perhaps deliver the rider into the pedestrian. 

In the Charlie Alliston case, the police cycle expert in court said that a bicycle could stop from 18mph in 3m.  The police expert was wrong but the defendant didn't have his own expert to counter these erroneous claims.  So from now on UK courts will be able to quote these figures and blame cyclists for not stoppping in cases when it would have been impossible to stop.  Extensive research was done at MIT a few years ago and should have been mentioned in the case, as the police didnt have the caliber of experts to realise that stopping a bicycle from 18mph in 3m is beyond the realm of physics.

External Link/Members Only

Cyclist Vs Cyclist or Pedestrian very rarely results in death.  Unless the cyclists skull impacts the pedestrians skull, the only real chance of death is if the pedestrian falls and strikes something hard with the skull, such as a the road.  Basic kinematics mean that if a 70kg cyclist on a 15kg bike travelling at 15mph, hit a 85kg stationary pedestrian, both with then travel at 7.5mph as a combined mass.

A car on the other hand, weighing in at say 2000kg for an average people carrier, traveling at 35mph, will lose less than 5% of its momentum and the pedestrian will instantly be accelerated from 0-35mph.  The have the secondary impact of going from 35-0mph either sliding along the road surface or being flung into something else or other moving traffic.

A vehicle has a large frontal area of hard surface, although modern cars less so.  The worst part being he top edge of where the windscreen meets the roof, thats why most crash tests aim to sacrifice the legs and bend the pedestrian in half and make the head hit the bonnet and slide up and over the roof.  Looks better in stats to have a quadriplegic than a dead body, plus drivers face less hassle of prosecution.

[LLPunting]

Most segregated cycle lanes are too narrow to pass, especially if they have both direction of traffic within the same lane, typically this style of cycle lane will be 1m per direction and a dashed line in the middle just like a mini road.  These e-scooters will be in the biggest busiest cities so expect experianced cyclists to srart avoiding segregated cycle lanes.In the Charlie Alliston case, the police cycle expert in court said that a bicycle could stop from 18mph in 3m.  The police expert was wrong but the defendant didn't have his own expert to counter these erroneous claims.  So from now on UK courts will be able to quote these figures and blame cyclists for not stoppping in cases when it would have been impossible to stop.  Extensive research was done at MIT a few years ago and should have been mentioned in the case, as the police didnt have the caliber of experts to realise that stopping a bicycle from 18mph in 3m is beyond the realm of physics.

External Link/Members Only

Cyclist Vs Cyclist or Pedestrian very rarely results in death.  Unless the cyclists skull impacts the pedestrians skull, the only real chance of death is if the pedestrian falls and strikes something hard with the skull, such as a the road.  Basic kinematics mean that if a 70kg cyclist on a 15kg bike travelling at 15mph, hit a 85kg stationary pedestrian, both with then travel at 7.5mph as a combined mass.

A car on the other hand, weighing in at say 2000kg for an average people carrier, traveling at 35mph, will lose less than 5% of its momentum and the pedestrian will instantly be accelerated from 0-35mph.  The have the secondary impact of going from 35-0mph either sliding along the road surface or being flung into something else or other moving traffic.

A vehicle has a large frontal area of hard surface, although modern cars less so.  The worst part being he top edge of where the windscreen meets the roof, thats why most crash tests aim to sacrifice the legs and bend the pedestrian in half and make the head hit the bonnet and slide up and over the roof.  Looks better in stats to have a quadriplegic than a dead body, plus drivers face less hassle of prosecution.

External Link/Members Only

The only thing that will stop a cycle from 18 mph in 3m is a collision.  Try out the link above to find the forces involved.

Forces found effective in breaking bones gives an indication of potential injury for such a collision:
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External Link/Members Only

Indeed deaths are rare, thankfully, but (serious) injury is less so.

Ropey physics aside, both humans run a not inconsiderable risk of broken bones and possible permanent injury.  If e-scooters are going to be heavier then that's more capacity for damage and therefore more  and more serious injury.  Unless the law restricts them to the roads then there will be more hazard and injury on pavements so everyone's risk environment will have worsened.

Only hope is that new liability laws come in to make culpability and responsibility clearer including zombie pedestrians.

[winkywanky]

The average city speed is below the claimed average cycling speed you state so whether a cyclist is using the road or a cycle lane means that they are the ones inconvenienced by the slower traffic motorised.
If the bike lanes are wide enough for passing then there's no reason that proper sharing of the lane wouldn't allow faster cycle traffic to pass.

If the scooters are going to be as heavy as 55 kg, the average bike is what 13-15 kg at most.  So if the riders are comparable then getting hit by a 60kg twat on a scooter is going to have c40kg more mass and there fore about 2/3 more energy than a collision with same twat on a bike at same speed.  If the collision with the cyclist is enough to break bones or even kill someone then that likelihood will increase with more energy in the impact.

Would be interesting to see the modelling of the crash dynamics.  Bikes hitting people might be more a collision with the front wheel with the mass of the rider perhaps pitching over/around the pedestrian.  Scooter hitting person would perhaps deliver the rider into the pedestrian. 

True what you say about the average speed of city traffic being slower than a bike. The last time I rode a bike in London (many years ago, and yes, it was horrible) I simply caught back up with all the cars that had rushed past to overtake me, at the next set of lights. And of course I would cruise slowly to the front before they went Green  .

No-one seemed to realise the futility of what they were doing (overtaking me sometimes inappropriately and dangerously) and the same cars would be in my vicinity 20mins down the road.

Re: bike lanes, apart from the (much rarer) curbed-off ones which would physically contain you as a cyclist, the ones which are simply painted onto the road don't restrict cyclists from briefly exiting them to overtake a fellow cyclist if need be. Of course, and cyclist doing this should either have a mirror fitted or make sure they glance over their shoulder to check it's safe to do so.

I had no idea these scooters were so damned heavy, but I guess just like the Boris Bikes, they have to be heavily over-engineered to survive the sheer abuse they'll receive in use, unlike something which you might own yourself. Quite right what you say about the momentum these things will carry in the event of a collision (Momentum = Mass x Speed or something?). Something heavy will cause a lot more damage, although it does also mean that the acceleration will be blunted somewhat.

There have been a couple of instances over the last few years, of cyclists in London (on 'ordinary' bikes), hitting pedestrians who were either looking down at their phones or simply misjudged their speed, walking out into the road and being hit. From memory, one died after falling badly and hitting her head, the other suffered a degree of brain damage?

Of course normally a car in such a collision would do more damage, but a bike is less easily seen, heard, and the speed is harder to judge. It will be the same with these scooters.

[winkywanky]

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Cyclist Vs Cyclist or Pedestrian very rarely results in death.  Unless the cyclists skull impacts the pedestrians skull, the only real chance of death is if the pedestrian falls and strikes something hard with the skull, such as a the road.  Basic kinematics mean that if a 70kg cyclist on a 15kg bike travelling at 15mph, hit a 85kg stationary pedestrian, both with then travel at 7.5mph as a combined mass.

I do remember the Alliston case now you mention it.

IMO Alliston and the girl who walked out in front of him were equally culpable.

The girl brought about the accident because she stepped out in front of him without looking (I think she was looking at her phone?)

But he was riding illegally because he was on what they call a 'Fixie' without a front brake. A Fixie doesn't have a freewheel (where you stop pedalling and you hear a 'zzzzzzzzzzz' from the rear wheel), it means the pedal cranks which drive the bike are directly mechanically fixed to the rear wheel, via the chain. On a 'normal' pushbike I think I'm right in saying that regardless of how hard you pull the brakes, around 75% of the braking force will come from the front brake. The braking force you can apply is limited by the traction of the wheels on the tarmac. With a Fixie, when you want to slow down you literally backpedal (push backwards on the pedals) and apply the front brake. The overall effect is similar to having front and rear brakes.

So if you ride a Fixie, by law you must have a front brake, but you don't need a rear brake. But apparently there is a 'craze' amongst Cycle Couriers and some other mainly young riders(a very stupid one) of having no front brake at all. That's no brakes.They rely on 'moving with the flow of traffic' and slowing down by back-pedalling. Pretty fucking stupid if you're bashing down a city road at 18mph or even more.

[winkywanky]

Re: stopping a bike travelling at 18mph within 3m, I think that highly unlikely. The brakes on a modern bike equipped with disc brakes would be up to it, but as stated in my earlier post the limiting factor would be the traction of your tyres on the road. You'd go into a skid and carry on moving.

On a bike with fat tyres the traction would be greater but I still doubt you'd stop that quick. And if the road were at all wet or greasy, you can forget it in any case.

[Pedalwall]

Think you're mixing up two cases Winky. Don't think there was any report that the woman (Kim Briggs) who died after the collision with Alliston had been looking at her phone or even taking a phone call. Rather much of the issue was that he was using a track bike on the road and hadn't fitted it with a front bike hence meaning it was illegal to ride in such circumstances. There was, however, another case  (may have been others also) where Robert Hazeldean collided with Gemma Brushett who, indeed, was looking at her phone when she stepped into the road near London Bridge. Both were left unconscious as a result and taken to hospital but both recovered. Brushett sued Hazeldean for damages and, while the judge found them to be equally culpable, Hazeldean was left to pay £4k in damages plus the court charges estimated to be 100k as he hadn't put in a counter claim!!

[winkywanky]

Think you're mixing up two cases Winky. Don't think there was any report that the woman (Kim Briggs) who died after the collision with Alliston had been looking at her phone or even taking a phone call. Rather much of the issue was that he was using a track bike on the road and hadn't fitted it with a front bike hence meaning it was illegal to ride in such circumstances. There was, however, another case  (may have been others also) where Robert Hazeldean collided with Gemma Brushett who, indeed, was looking at her phone when she stepped into the road near London Bridge. Both were left unconscious as a result and taken to hospital but both recovered. Brushett sued Hazeldean for damages and, while the judge found them to be equally culpable, Hazeldean was left to pay £4k in damages plus the court charges estimated to be 100k as he hadn't put in a counter claim!!

Perhaps I am? Purely from memory (and I did give this a good look at the time) I'm fairly sure she simply stepped out in front of him, without looking (either with involvement of a phone, or not). He did shout a warning I think (he'll have instantly realised he wouldn't be able to stop or avoid at such short notice) but the collision was unavoidable once she entered into his path.

Yes, the bike he had was a Fixie, that's just a generic term for a bike with a fixed rear wheel, which includes track bikes which many people use on the road now in cities. I'm pretty sure his had a hole in the front fork which is where you'd fit a front brake caliper for road use, but he'd chosen not to. Apart from the real hardcore track racing bikes costing several £thousand, I think most track bikes have this hole in the top of the fork to fit a brake for road use? I used to do a bit of cycling back in the day. Even if you buy such a track bike without a brake, if you intend to use it on the road then it's a simple and cheap thing to fit a caliper, a lever on the handlebars, and a short cable to go between them. And then you're legal. But like I say, there are a lot of idiots riding around cities on Fixies without a front brake, purely because it's cool. 

Now you mention it, I do remember the Hazeldean case too now. You're right about him having to pay out a lot of money even though she was equally at fault, but I also seem to remember that with the magic of social media, he managed to crowdfund his costs so that he wasn't out of pocket? But it's still a bit shit because it just makes it look like it was all his fault, when infact it wasn't.

[David1970]

Must look into how the road use laws are different in Holland, Belgium, France etc.

I was in Austria last year and the cars and bikes seem to flow no problem, both keep to the rules.
No bikes on the pavement nor do they seem to go through red lights as they do here.

[RedKettle]

I agree that cyclists in the UK tended to be inconsiderate and break the law with impunity, but not so in mainland Europe.

Did a cyclist shag your wife or something - you have ago at any opportunity.  I cycle and drive - more a driver than a cyclist - and there are far more inconsiderate and law breaking car drivers both as a proportion and in absolute numbers. 

[Fuzzyduck]

Did a cyclist shag your wife or something - you have ago at any opportunity.  I cycle and drive - more a driver than a cyclist - and there are far more inconsiderate and law breaking car drivers both as a proportion and in absolute numbers.

I too cycle and drive and, from observation, I'd probably agree with you. I see more poor behaviour from drivers than I do cyclists when I'm either in a car or on a bike., However, I also see far more cars than cyclists which means that I'm just likely to see more poor driving. I couldn't say whether the % of dick drivers > % of dick cyclists.

I reckon there is just a % of the population who are dicks and behave like dicks whether they are on the pavement, cycling or driving.

[Londonpunter30]

Did a cyclist shag your wife or something - you have ago at any opportunity.  I cycle and drive - more a driver than a cyclist - and there are far more inconsiderate and law breaking car drivers both as a proportion and in absolute numbers.

Completely agree.  Stand near any busy junction and you will see far more cars jump the lights than cycling sets.  amber now seems to mean spread up, then when it goes red the driver the driver keeps going anyway

[winkywanky]

The big difference between bad behaviour from cyclists and drivers, is that one is liable to kill, the other is liable to cause relatively minor annoyance, and if anything, suicide rather than homicide.

[sparkus]

Did a cyclist shag your wife or something - you have ago at any opportunity.  I cycle and drive - more a driver than a cyclist - and there are far more inconsiderate and law breaking car drivers both as a proportion and in absolute numbers.

I cycle and drive also - as a cyclist I find other cyclists can be grade A arseholes.  It's not an either or thing.

[lostandfound]

Personally I think that phrasing the debate in terms of "that other group of road users are bigger arseholes" is the wrong place to be, and shows that we have a long way to go to bring sanity and civility to our roads.

[winkywanky]

Personally I think that phrasing the debate in terms of "that other group of road users are bigger arseholes" is the wrong place to be, and shows that we have a long way to go to bring sanity and civility to our roads.

That's about the size of it.

Some humans can be useless cunts or nasty twats, whatever mode of transport they use. And they'll exhibit those traits, whatever.

Don't look at it as a cyclist, or a motorist, look at it as a person, on a bike or in a car.

[sub_marine]

Perhaps I am? Purely from memory (and I did give this a good look at the time) I'm fairly sure she simply stepped out in front of him, without looking (either with involvement of a phone, or not). He did shout a warning I think (he'll have instantly realised he wouldn't be able to stop or avoid at such short notice) but the collision was unavoidable once she entered into his path.

Yeah she just walked off of the pavement into the flow of traffic while the red man was on.  Aliston shouted at her and since she was already a few m into the road, he continued cycling close to the kerb, but when she heard him shout, she tried to jump back onto the pavement and ended up going in front of him. 

The stopping distance of a vehicle at 30mph would have been double that of Aliston at 18mph, so if a vehicle had hit her she would have probably died as well.  And just been a statistic, due to Alisotns comments on social media on the evening after the incident, the courts decided to make an example of him.  A valuble lesson here for other cyclists, if you hit somebody, get back on the bike and disappear quickly.

Re: stopping a bike travelling at 18mph within 3m, I think that highly unlikely. The brakes on a modern bike equipped with disc brakes would be up to it, but as stated in my earlier post the limiting factor would be the traction of your tyres on the road. You'd go into a skid and carry on moving.

On a bike with fat tyres the traction would be greater but I still doubt you'd stop that quick. And if the road were at all wet or greasy, you can forget it in any case.

The limiting factor is not grip unless there is very little grip such as on wet grass.  As the brakes are applied, the equal and opposite force is for the rider and frame to try to rotate forward to counter the fact the wheel is decreasing in speed.  This then means more and more load is on the front tyre, until the rear tyre lifts from the road.  A rider will naturally push against on the bars and lower there bum to move weight rearwards to counter the force.  There is a sweet spot with the riders weight pushed back and low, with the rear tyre about 3" off the road at which the maximum retardation of speed will occur.  Brake any harder at this point and the rider will go over the bars.  This point of maximum speed retardation was studied by MIT, and using the calculation they dervived, at 18mph Aliston would have needed 6.25m to stop at an absolute minimum, so the coppers with 3m were miles off. 

An MTB with disc brakes actually is worse at stopping because when the suspension fork compresses the sweet spot for going over the bars arrives sooner, plus with some of the 203mm rotors on the front of MTBs, the power of the brakes  mean this can be achieved with a single finger on the brake lever.  The reason MTBs have such big brakes is for longevity on big descents, so that the brakes don't over heat from prolonged use.  This is why the recent trend for road bikes to have tiny disc brakes instead of using rim brakes has its pros and cons.  The biggest con being if you are cycling in winter down a long hill and need to drag a brake to prevent going to fast, the brake heats up to soon and melts the brake piston seals, been there done that.