Players who were great for club and crap for England.

[NIK]

Inspired by the other football thread, how about players who were great for clubs but crap for England?

To start off I offer Russell Osman of Ipswich. He was Terry Butcher's defensive partner and they were great at Ipswich, but while Butcher made it for England, Osman didn't.

Then there are some Liverpool players  - Steve McManaman who I thought was brilliant for club but did nowt for England. And Robbie Fowler. Actually Fowler was a player who really passed me by. Don't know whether I'd lost interest at the time, but I never really remember much about him, so he might have been good for England.
There is also the aforementioned John Barnes from the other thread. To be fair I think he did have a some good games for England, but nowhere near as many as his talent suggested he should have had.

[winkywanky]

Rooney.

[winkywanky]

..although it has to be said, when it came to grannies he could fuck for England  .

[hillingdonpete]

The Slipper.

[hornyguylondon]

David James - Teflon for England

Gerrard and Lampard - couldn't play together for England

Robbie Fowler - prolific at club level not International.

Roy Keane - bit harsh having to play for one of the best club sides then Ireland.

Wanted to include Pickford but he's crap for both club and country 

[Beamer]

Ray Crawford.

[hornyguylondon]

Ray Crawford.

Thats one from back in the day - had to look him up !

He only played twice for England and scored 1 goal - obviously dropped for a poor record 

[Kingy28]

Wanted to include Pickford but he's crap for both club and country 

I'd match Coco Palmer & Geoff Thomas with that although I could probably name 100.
Le Tissier was great for club & crap for England

[willie loman]

Rooney.

He continued to be picked when he was past his best, and out of position to make things worse, I feel he was responsible for England being beaten by Iceland in the euros. But at the beginning he was fine.

[hornyguylondon]

Rooney.

Rooney is both England's most-capped outfield player of all-time with 119 appearances, and their leading goalscorer with 53 goals.

You just don't like him do you   

[winkywanky]

Rooney is both England's most-capped outfield player of all-time with 119 appearances, and their leading goalscorer with 53 goals.

You just don't like him do you   

I seriously had no idea of the stats.

But seem to remember him seriously underwhelming by comparison with his epic performances for Man. Utd?

[Blackpool Rock]

This is partly about perception really as quite a few players mentioned as being crap for England didn't actually get many games to prove themselves, i'm not sure it's right to say they were crap if they were a bit out of favour rather than not playing due to being crap.
In a similar way some players had to play slightly out of position for England so were asked to do a job for the team and were never going to shine in the same light.

I thought Steve McManaman was OK for England but got passed over in favour of Darren Anderton who I did think was crap compared to macca, that was largely down to him playing for Spurs and Glenn wanker Hoddle picking him for that reason.

Robbie Fowler didn't get as many games as he should have but there were always rumours about drug use around him, I recall about 25 years ago there was a programme where they asked George Best to pick his all time England side and he put Fowler up front.

John Barnes was asked to play more of a holding role for England

Rooney was great to begin with as he burst onto the scene and nobody knew how to deal with him but he retained his place by reputation long after he should have been dropped

Gerrard and Lampard as mentioned couldn't seem to click when playing for England though I thought Lampard performed better than Gerrard

Le Tissier again didn't seem to get as many games as he should (only got 8), think there was an England game that was going to penalties and Le Tiss was still left on the bench by Hoddle despite having never missed a penalty for Southampton 


So a couple more contenders -
Bryan Robson - Over rated
Glenn Hoddle himself as a player and crap manager 

 

[hillingdonpete]

I always thought that Hoddle was years ahead of everybody else in the England setup.
The team should have been made around him.

[mr.bluesky]

John Barnes scored a great goal against Brazil in a friendly in his early career but never did it for England on a regular basis. Good player for Liverpool but never reproduced the same form for England. The same could be said of Lionel Messi.  Brilliant for Barcelona but has never reproduced that form for Argentina on a regular basis.

[ratedj]

Rooney.

I think someone has already highlighted that this may not be an ideal choice 

[Davey Dykes]

Alan Hansen

[hillingdonpete]

Alan Hansen

He wernt much good for Scotland either.

[ratedj]

I would actually select a player in the current squad, being Dele Alli.

[Blackpool Rock]

He wernt much good for Scotland either.

[Blackpool Rock]

OK so controversial but how about Gary Lineker, I could have scored as many as him if i'd camped out in the 6 yard box 

[winkywanky]

These days he's to be found camping it up on the telly  .

[mr.bluesky]

Rooney is both England's most-capped outfield player of all-time with 119 appearances, and their leading goalscorer with 53 goals.

You just don't like him do you   

For me Rooney never performed when it really mattered on the big occasion.  Could bang in the goals against the lesser nations but often went awol in the big games. I think that is the problem with many England players. Over hyped when playing for their clubs but average when it came to international games

[ratedj]

OK so controversial but how about Gary Lineker, I could have scored as many as him if i'd camped out in the 6 yard box 

Ultimately a striker is judged upon his strike rate, and 'crap' is not a phrase I'd use to describe 48 goals in 80 games 

[hornyguylondon]

OK so controversial but how about Gary Lineker, I could have scored as many as him if i'd camped out in the 6 yard box 

You'd be offside a lot !

[winkywanky]

He always looked classy, you can say that about him.

[hornyguylondon]

For me Rooney never performed when it really mattered on the big occasion.  Could bang in the goals against the lesser nations but often went awol in the big games. I think that is the problem with many England players. Over hyped when playing for their clubs but average when it came to international games

We don't do the players any favours by hyping them up to be world beaters every time a tournament comes around. We'll never be world class until we have a reasonable amout of players regularly playing in the Prem League. The Prem League doesnt care about England, it's basically owned by Foreign investment.

[mr.bluesky]

Carton Palmer. How did he ever get picked for England  A great favourite of Graham Taylor 

[ratedj]

For me Rooney never performed when it really mattered on the big occasion.  Could bang in the goals against the lesser nations but often went awol in the big games. I think that is the problem with many England players. Over hyped when playing for their clubs but average when it came to international games

I think there is a bit of a misconception with Rooney. I think the issue is no one can get away from his performances during Euro 2004 which set the bar extremely high, and if we're being honest he never quite attained that level again. However, that doesnt take away from the fact that he's one of England's greatest players, and ultimately history will rememeber this. Just an opinion.

[threechilliman]

I seriously had no idea of the stats.

But seem to remember him seriously underwhelming by comparison with his epic performances for Man. Utd?

It helped that he was in a decent side.....

[winkywanky]

I guess that would help.

[winkywanky]

Carton Palmer. How did he ever get picked for England

Fuck knows, but he was a damned good drummer.

[willie loman]

..although it has to be said, when it came to grannies he could fuck for England  .

They were Liverpudlian grannies, some places you are a great grandmother before you are sixty.

[willie loman]

John Barnes scored a great goal against Brazil in a friendly in his early career but never did it for England on a regular basis. Good player for Liverpool but never reproduced the same form for England. The same could be said of Lionel Messi.  Brilliant for Barcelona but has never reproduced that form for Argentina on a regular basis.

Messi played so many high intensity games, that he was rarely fresh enough for Argentina, I remember seeing him before extra time against Algeria,in the world cup, lying flat out, exhausted , but a few minutes later , managed the messi run, and release that won the game

[Sparta Prada]

The nature of international football - squads meeting up every couple of months for 2 games before returning to regular club football - means most players probably don’t fulfil their potential. A lot of big players for their clubs don’t replicate this at international level.

You only have to look at Lionel Messi: regularly amazing for Barcelona but gets pilloried in his home country for not doing the same for Argentina. Having said that, Cristiano Ronaldo seems to perform as well for club and country.

Edit - just realised that others have mentioned Messi as an example. Maybe flair players probably stand out more in not replicating club form? Look at the examples mentioned in this thread: Messi, Hoddle, Barnes, Le Tissier; these four guys would probably be shoe-ins for the all-time XI for the clubs they are mostly associated with.

[hornyguylondon]

Carton Palmer. How did he ever get picked for England  A great favourite of Graham Taylor 

Now you're talking - Bambi on ice or the poor man's Viera !

[hornyguylondon]

The nature of international football - squads meeting up every couple of months for 2 games before returning to regular club football - means most players probably don’t fulfil their potential. A lot of big players for their clubs don’t replicate this at international level.

You only have to look at Lionel Messi: regularly amazing for Barcelona but gets pilloried in his home country for not doing the same for Argentina. Having said that, Cristiano Ronaldo seems to perform as well for club and country.

Nail on head there, that's why Ronaldo should be considered one of the all time greatest ever players. 700 career goals and 99 international - not many compare.

[Beamer]

Nail on head there, that's why Ronaldo should be considered one of the all time greatest ever players. 700 career goals and 99 international - not many compare.

Don't like the guy but have to respect his record for clubs and country. Many goals scored under pressure e.g. injury time free kick etc

[hornyguylondon]

Don't like the guy but have to respect his record for clubs and country. Many goals scored under pressure e.g. injury time free kick etc

Ditto, prefer Messi as a professional but can't argue with stats.

[Sparta Prada]

Going back to England, another example of highly rated at club but not international level: Paul Scholes.

[Beamer]

Going back to England, another example of highly rated at club but not international level: Paul Scholes.

Good call.
He would have walked into any club side but agree he didn't cut it at national level. 
Arguably the same for most players in the last 10 or so years.
No one sticks out as a major success at national level.

[boardyhell]

Good call.
He would have walked into any club side but agree he didn't cut it at national level. 
Arguably the same for most players in the last 10 or so years.
No one sticks out as a major success at national level.
[/quote scholes was slung out on the left for england,although he sometimes played for united there
he never got many chances to play central as lampard and gerrard were more eye catching
don't remember xavi and zidane rate lampard or gerard as the best midfielder they ever played against
seen him play live and totally dominate games by passing and intelligence
he should have been englands lynchpin

[hornyguylondon]

Good call.
He would have walked into any club side but agree he didn't cut it at national level. 
Arguably the same for most players in the last 10 or so years.
No one sticks out as a major success at national level.

Was going to suggest Beckham but not forgiven him for his petulant kick that got him sent off v Argentina 

[boardyhell]

Good call.
He would have walked into any club side but agree he didn't cut it at national level. 
Arguably the same for most players in the last 10 or so years.
No one sticks out as a major success at national level.

its probably like playing john terry as a full black ,fish out of water

[timsussex]

Jeff Astle - missed an open goal because  'the chance came to his wrong foot'  WTF is a centre forward with one foot playing for England

Malcolm MacDonald Ok against minnow but crap against any national team in the top 50

Le Tissier never got a chance; scored THREE and made one in a England B game before the 1998 world cup  and never got in the squad Nobody wanted to play B games after that nd they were dropped

The job of an England  manager is to get the best out of your outstanding players (thats what Ramsey did) but for 10 years a succession of England managers failed to devise a system to get the best out of Lampard and Gerrard

[HERTSBLUE]

Chris Sutton 1 cap for England crap at  Chelsea as  well.

[MrBamboo]

Trevor Francis

[mr.bluesky]

Fuck knows, but he was a damned good drummer.

Winkywanky  I don't think you're taking this thread seriously   

[lewisjones23]

Slightly going off the topic but Messi has to be the best example of it.

Ok he has had teams set up to support him at Barca but for Argentina he has never scaled the same heights

[Belgarion]

Gerrard
Lampard
Andy Cole
John Terry

[southcoastpunter]

The job of an England  manager is to get the best out of your outstanding players (thats what Ramsey did) but for 10 years a succession of England managers failed to devise a system to get the best out of Lampard and Gerrard

Surely the job of the England manager is to win the next game and that usually means picking the best team from those available and set them up in the best way (structure and tatics) to beat whoever they face, taking into account the strengths and weakness of the opposition. It shouldn't be about any one (or two) players but about getting the best from the team as a whole.