Finance & Investments

[drogoboy99]

I keep them as a back up to pay off my numerous credit cards. Safest place to put borrowed money. It’s inflation proof since my loan won’t increase for the 36 months I have the credit card, meanwhile I win thousands from an interest free loan in that time.

Is it possible to get 0% loans on credit cards for long term on large amounts ? I've never tried this. Is it possible to just keep rolling the loan onto new cards at 0% with no fees - then you could just keep the cash in premium bonds or ISA etc and earn nice income from this.

[Moby Dick]

Is it possible to get 0% loans on credit cards for long term on large amounts ? I've never tried this. Is it possible to just keep rolling the loan onto new cards at 0% with no fees - then you could just keep the cash in premium bonds or ISA etc and earn nice income from this.

Yes, been doing it for years.

Best CC balance transfer offer was £30k for 36months 0% interest, no fee. Why wouldn’t I?
Most of my other cards / debts are between £10k and £20k. All 0%, minimal fees (works out less than 1% per year)

it’s a Small income, due to £50k limit on premium bonds.
(In theory £1650 tax free income per year at 3.3% - but I have been much luckier than this)

So I also max out my cash ISAs, and since i rarely have a problem finding a new card to transfer I also tie up in longer term stock and shares ISAs and the cash flow helps me put more into pensions (salary sacrifice so pay less income tax and NI)

If I can’t find a new card with low fees I just pay back from numerous reserves accumulated, and start again on a 0% purchase card. Never had a problem, just be disciplined and don’t overspend (essentials and work expenses only)

However depending on your circumstances (ie you intend to re-mortgage in the next few months) it may not be for you.

[PilotMan]

Is it possible to get 0% loans on credit cards for long term on large amounts ? I've never tried this. Is it possible to just keep rolling the loan onto new cards at 0% with no fees - then you could just keep the cash in premium bonds or ISA etc and earn nice income from this.

Don't fall for this free money BS, the reality of the numbers are;

For every £10k you borrow on a credit card you will net just £268.58 over three years - if, and only if, you are able to maximise the deposit interest.

I explain it here.

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=397904.msg4445911#msg4445911


And, as Moby Dick advises, it will impact upon your credit rating.

[PilotMan]

the cash flow helps me put more into pensions (salary sacrifice so pay less income tax and NI)

I suggested this "cash flow" was a myth, and asked if you could explain how it works, you never did.

I don't think you can explain it, I'm therefore still of the opinion that it is just a figment of your financial imagination.

[drogoboy99]

if you search on google or chat gpt apparently this trick is called "Stoozing" . sounds like a bit of a hassle and might harm credit score / mortgage application etc as you say

[Rick2468]

if you search on google or chat gpt apparently this trick is called "Stoozing" . sounds like a bit of a hassle and might harm credit score / mortgage application etc as you say

I am with Pilot and Drogo on this one. Investment choices heavily depend on your personal circumstances but with stoozing you are potentially hindering your ability to borrow and get a mortgage in future. You might be in a position where you need to borrow to buy a house or invest in your business but you can't because you wanted a few £100 years earlier. You could end up loosing much more money if you screw up on the admin, so if you do do it, plan everything in advance and set yourself reminders.

[Moby Dick]

I am with Pilot and Drogo on this one. Investment choices heavily depend on your personal circumstances but with stoozing you are potentially hindering your ability to borrow and get a mortgage in future. You might be in a position where you need to borrow to buy a house or invest in your business but you can't because you wanted a few £100 years earlier. You could end up loosing much more money if you screw up on the admin, so if you do do it, plan everything in advance and set yourself reminders.

Yes it’s not for everyone.
I don’t have a mortgage and I don’t have a problem getting one, although I can imagine for some it could be a problem. I was once told to borrow money first you have or prove you don’t need it.

Admin is easy, minimum payments automatic by direct debit.
Change credit cards once or twice a year. Less than an hours effort. Spent more time on here educating Porkman.

[Moby Dick]

I suggested this "cash flow" was a myth, and asked if you could explain how it works, you never did.

I don't think you can explain it, I'm therefore still of the opinion that it is just a figment of your financial imagination.

It’s real. I’ve saved thousands doing this over the years.

It’s not rocket science.
I borrow money. I invest money. I earn money (from savings interest, premium bond prizes, share value increase), I pay back the money. I keep the earnings.

It’s not a huge amount. We’ve had this discussion, you say chumps change, I say peanuts. I am repeating myself but clearly you are having difficulties understanding. It’s insignificant compared to my income and other investments but at £4k a year is a nice little bonus from doing very little. One or two card applications a year, plus new ISA once a year. Takes less than an hour. Put it into context : To generate this net income I would need to earn  £7k gross - now tell me how many of us have to sit through an hour meeting once a year with their employer discussing KPIs and all that bollocks just to get a keep up inflation pay rise and 10% annual bonus?

The fact I am using borrowed money, frees up my own earnings and other savings to invest into my pension (bigger savings made through salary sacrifice than the interest I get from savings accounts). The money I hold in Cash ISA is also inflation proof. It’s there to pay back a 0% loan. The loan amount doesn’t increase during this time. I keep the interest and just pay back what I borrowed. Win Win!

I consider this cash flow, it’s a cushion, I don’t worry from pay day to pay day. It allows me to invest in the stock market when low. I did this  recently and moved £20k into S&S and have thus far have “on paper” made over £2k in 6weeks. It allows me to move cash around from pot to pot to maximise earnings when the opportunity arises. Hence I call it cash flow!

I purchase everything / as much as I can each month on credit cards. Money I would have spent anyway on day to day stuff including company expenses. This frees up my income that I would have spent on essentials and gives me a further upfront cash injection from reimbursed expenses. I don’t have to pay this back until 2029! Even then, if I the fees are low I will just transfer to another 0% card. Yes 0% APR and zero fees is free money…. Almost on the never never.

When I die my executor can pay back my debts from my estate, thus giving a further benefit by paying less IHT. Meanwhile I will continue to enjoy the benefits of this additional cash flow. Borrowing more doesn’t bother me.

[PilotMan]

It’s real. I’ve saved thousands doing this over the years.

It’s not rocket science.
I borrow money. I invest money. I earn money (from savings interest, premium bond prizes, share value increase), I pay back the money. I keep the earnings.

It’s not a huge amount. We’ve had this discussion, you say chumps change, I say peanuts. I am repeating myself but clearly you are having difficulties understanding. It’s insignificant compared to my income and other investments but at £4k a year is a nice little bonus from doing very little. One or two card applications a year, plus new ISA once a year. Takes less than an hour. Put it into context : To generate this net income I would need to earn  £7k gross - now tell me how many of us have to sit through an hour meeting once a year with their employer discussing KPIs and all that bollocks just to get a keep up inflation pay rise and 10% annual bonus?

The fact I am using borrowed money, frees up my own earnings and other savings to invest into my pension (bigger savings made through salary sacrifice than the interest I get from savings accounts). The money I hold in Cash ISA is also inflation proof. It’s there to pay back a 0% loan. The loan amount doesn’t increase during this time. I keep the interest and just pay back what I borrowed. Win Win!

I consider this cash flow, it’s a cushion, I don’t worry from pay day to pay day. It allows me to invest in the stock market when low. I did this  recently and moved £20k into S&S and have thus far have “on paper” made over £2k in 6weeks. It allows me to move cash around from pot to pot to maximise earnings when the opportunity arises. Hence I call it cash flow!

I purchase everything / as much as I can each month on credit cards. Money I would have spent anyway on day to day stuff including company expenses. This frees up my income that I would have spent on essentials and gives me a further upfront cash injection from reimbursed expenses. I don’t have to pay this back until 2029! Even then, if I the fees are low I will just transfer to another 0% card. Yes 0% APR and zero fees is free money…. Almost on the never never.

When I die my executor can pay back my debts from my estate, thus giving a further benefit by paying less IHT. Meanwhile I will continue to enjoy the benefits of this additional cash flow. Borrowing more doesn’t bother me.

Nobody is having difficulty understanding, you're just not saying anything in real terms, it's all a load of blah blah chat around throwing numbers and percentages around, thinking that is an answer. That's usually what people do when they are unable to answer a direct question, they fudge around the edges, hoping that their convoluted answer will be enough to both make you think that they know what they're talking about, and it's your own lack of understanding.

I have a very good understanding of how finances work in the real world, I was able to clearly lay out the calculations, using "real world" numbers based on your information - showing that for every £10k you borrow on your 0% credit card will earn you just £268.58 over three years - a figure you haven't disputed. You then went on to say, you do it for cash flow and not to earn interest.

So why don't you show us in clear and simple terms this cash flow that you're benefitting from, i.e. give us the actual real world numbers.

If you can't do that, in clear and simple terms, then it clearly and simply doesn't exist

[Moby Dick]

Pman. You clearly are having difficulty understanding.

I have disputed your calculations.
Post 731

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=397904.700

You say £10k borrowed on credit card over 3 years gives an income of £268.58.  So £89.52 per year. Bollocks I say. It’s 5 times more. But that’s not why I do it.

Even so you keep bringing it up, so YOU should recalculate with correct details, ie 0% interest, zero fees, zero tax (it’s all in tax free ISAs and Premium Bonds) and since my monthly spending on 0% credit cards exceeds my total monthly repayments the total invested is not diminishing (it’s actually increasing).

It is free money.
0% APR is common.
Balance transfer fees are more recent and need checking. They aren’t an annual fee but upfront and added to the loan. Take,  for example, the 3% fee and divide by 36months x 12 months to get the annual equivalent - most work out at less than 1% Or phone them up and haggle.  0% fees are available.

Keep it simple you say.
Here is my calculation:
Borrow / build up credit card debt to £100k, no fees, no interest rates, pay back 1% per month (£1000) whilst borrowing a further £1000 per month on a different 0% purchase card. (I also get reimbursed for my expenses which also goes on the purchase card. This monthly reimbursement further helps with cash flow.)
Question : How much interest will you get if you maintain a credit balance of £100k for 12months at an average interest rate of 4.5%?
 Answer £4500.00
 (Or £450 per £10k borrowed not £268.58/3=89.52 hence 5 times more)

Did I tell you I don’t do it for that? although it is a nice bonus.
I borrow free money because It helps with cash flow. Having this in my ISA and premium bonds allows me to have accessible cash if required (in an emergency for example - it’s a buffer - I have months/years to replace it).

It frees up other money and allows me to invest more into my pension thus reducing taxable income. This is the bigger saving, and the point I think you are continually missing. Above the £50k income tax threshold for every  £10k I put into my pension I save £4200 in tax & NI. “Stoozing” helps me max out my pension contributions to £60k per year and save over £20k a year in income tax / NI and interest from the savings.

Whilst I have an income it is sustainable and worthwhile. The greater benefits come from reducing my taxable income through salary sacrifice not the interest from savings. A simple point I made some time ago.

[Darren101]

I see where Moby Dick’s coming from and pilotman’s point.  It gives him cash to play with that he would otherwise not have without doing the stoozing so sounds like it works for him.  Whatever the returns he gets out of it is irrelevant, no?  It gives him money / ability to spend interest free, so he can do his salary sacrifice, chuck more into ISA’s etc.   If he’s not fussed about credit searches as he won’t be applying for mortgages, it doesn’t matter. If he can max out his pension contributions and save on tax, good for him. He may have limited options after too many applications but does not sound like it matters to him as he’s not stoozing to keep his head above water but just taking advantage of the system that gives him almost free cash/credit.

Anyway….question. There seems to be many Vanguard ETFs when I search Trading212  Everyone bangs on about S&P 500 which I’ve got some in.  What others are worth looking at?   There’s a lot of FTSE ones too.

Is Vanguard the safest bet for these ETFs?  I’m up 19.68% which looks promising but I don’t have a huge amount in it.  Yes, I know it can go right back down but on the next big dip, I’d like to be more prepared and have spare cash to buy the dip.

My understanding is S&P 500 are the top 500 companies in US tech.

FTSE100 is top 100 UK companies. 

Didn’t know there were Asia FTSE and the like until recently. Or Europe ones and emerging markets

[Norwichwood]

Hi Darren 101 - check out Nasdaq 100 - ask google for the average real return over 30 years (factoring in dividends and inflation) - and do the same for other indexes - its not perfect science but a good indicator - its been about 15% pa growth - and about 45% in past 12 month. Building a snowball.....

[Blackpool Rock]

I see where Moby Dick’s coming from and pilotman’s point.  It gives him cash to play with that he would otherwise not have without doing the stoozing so sounds like it works for him.  Whatever the returns he gets out of it is irrelevant, no?  It gives him money / ability to spend interest free, so he can do his salary sacrifice, chuck more into ISA’s etc.   If he’s not fussed about credit searches as he won’t be applying for mortgages, it doesn’t matter. If he can max out his pension contributions and save on tax, good for him. He may have limited options after too many applications but does not sound like it matters to him as he’s not stoozing to keep his head above water but just taking advantage of the system that gives him almost free cash/credit.

Anyway….question. There seems to be many Vanguard ETFs when I search Trading212  Everyone bangs on about S&P 500 which I’ve got some in.  What others are worth looking at?   There’s a lot of FTSE ones too.

Is Vanguard the safest bet for these ETFs?  I’m up 19.68% which looks promising but I don’t have a huge amount in it.  Yes, I know it can go right back down but on the next big dip, I’d like to be more prepared and have spare cash to buy the dip.

My understanding is S&P 500 are the top 500 companies in US tech.

FTSE100 is top 100 UK companies. 

Didn’t know there were Asia FTSE and the like until recently. Or Europe ones and emerging markets

The S&P 500 does include Tech as they are big players in the US but if you just want Tech then it's the Nasdaq you want

The S&P 500 actually has 2 slightly different types -

Two Main Weighting Methods:
Market-Cap Weighted: The standard, most common type. Larger companies (like Apple or Microsoft) have a greater impact on the index's performance.

Equal Weighted: Each of the 500 companies is given the same weight, meaning smaller companies have as much influence as larger ones

[Moby Dick]

Wiki:
S&P 500 stands for Standard & Poor's 500 Index. It is a stock market index that tracks the performance of 500 of the largest publicly traded companies in the United States, representing approximately 80% of the total U.S. market capitalization

The FTSE 100 stands for the Financial Times Stock Exchange 100 Index. It is an index of the 100 most highly capitalized, or "blue-chip," companies listed on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) and is often referred to informally as the "Footsie"

I have the vanguard FTSE “all world” VWRP : so exposed to both FTSE100 and S&P 500 (albeit not equally).


But there are other / more specific (riskier?) FTSE options:

Hidden Image/Members Only

Hidden Image/Members Only

[PilotMan]

@Moby Dick

Simple question.

If it were necessary, are you able to pay off all of your credit card debt from your current resources you have in cash deposits or cash equivalent (e.g. instantly withdrawn funds such as stocks or ETF's)?

[GreyDave]

Nobody is having difficulty understanding, you're just not saying anything in real terms, it's all a load of blah blah chat around throwing numbers and percentages around, thinking that is an answer. That's usually what people do when they are unable to answer a direct question, they fudge around the edges, hoping that their convoluted answer will be enough to both make you think that they know what they're talking about, and it's your own lack of understanding.

I have a very good understanding of how finances work in the real world, I was able to clearly lay out the calculations, using "real world" numbers based on your information - showing that for every £10k you borrow on your 0% credit card will earn you just £268.58 over three years - a figure you haven't disputed. You then went on to say, you do it for cash flow and not to earn interest.

So why don't you show us in clear and simple terms this cash flow that you're benefitting from, i.e. give us the actual real world numbers.

If you can't do that, in clear and simple terms, then it clearly and simply doesn't exist

Agreed Sir,

Ive a few private pensions the largest I took ( foolishly as was worried about reeves )  25 per cent out and now I am unable to pay in and get the tax benift of the 25% on the remaining sum however the other pensions will allow me to pay in Earned income up to 60K ( I wish ) but not allowed any interest or rental income in that (wishing again)  I do have a few Isa accounts and a Vanguard  ac and small premium  bonds Ok here is the point

NONE OF THESE ALLOW PAYMENT BY CREDIT CARD   

Using a CC to pay for most of the finace stuff is just not acceped my mortage will only take bank transfer so the only things I personally have used CC for have been Insurance Rent Supplies and Car payment.
Im not saying its not possible to take the cash out of a CC but last time I looked interest is charged from day one on this . So short of loading a card with debt then opening another to get low interest on the balance transfer however this transfer often applies to purchases only not cash advances  I am scepitical about buying any investment on CC ...But then Ill admit Ive not used The online broker houses they may well allow these transation but the chargre for doing so is probaly hidien in their service charge on the account.

I ve seen people run up massive CC debt doing up houses hoping that when its done if they sell they clear the card what usally happens is they are trapped in a fixed term mortage which they want to increase to clear the card debt of high intrest when youve loaded up 50k with 25 odd percent charge with a min imum monthly payment .. things start to become wobbley and what on paper look a clever juggle of cards wheez becomes a chain . Sorry it just being in rental refits of small landlord properties I see a lot of dreamers and have not been paid by a few too as when your CC credit runs out and work needs to be done stuff hits fan 

[GreyDave]

If I was prime minister - I would go to the Philippines and lease a large area of land for 100 years deal - set up a retirement village - and encourage people over time to move there. That is the easy way to free up (as oppose to build) 150,000 homes here. You offer men (and women) free accom, good food, and a pension so they can afford the LBFM in the sun for a fraction of the cost here. It would be heaven. And win-win for the 2 countries as would reduce pressure on our NHS as well. We would train up a large number of their people for working there but also here. At the same time would set up community kitchens to replace food banks. Offering simple vegetarian food for all (I'm a meat eater but cost wise would work better if no meat). Then I would create a city of the future here in honour of Queen Elizabeth. Work on making Secondary Education the best in the world as much as possible. And if you come here illegally - that is a crime - and treat it as such (within the ECHR rules which we largely set up to protect out people). Would make a great economic boost to the country for all.

You don't need a lot to retire to the Philippines - a lot of people there live on £10 a day or so - language is much easier to learn (they use our Alphabet) - hot sunny weather - cold cheap beer - friendly women! So living on your state pension is ok as it will go up same as it does here as have agreement.

   Sir this is the best advice on here ...there might well be a Prime ministers job here, youd get my vote

[Moby Dick]

@Moby Dick

Simple question.

If it were necessary, are you able to pay off all of your credit card debt from your current resources you have in cash deposits or cash equivalent (e.g. instantly withdrawn funds such as stocks or ETF's)?

Yes.

My premium bonds and cash ISAs easily cover my credit card debt.
If it was my money inflation would be a concern.  Even so due to the 36 months before I need to payback (or transfer) I am putting more into S&S ISAs. I wish I did more of that 12months ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing! I will be ready should the market drop significantly.

[PilotMan]

Yes.

My premium bonds and cash ISAs easily cover my credit card debt.
If it was my money inflation would be a concern.  Even so due to the 36 months before I need to payback (or transfer) I am putting more into S&S ISAs. I wish I did more of that 12months ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing! I will be ready should the market drop significantly.

Ok, so you have the equivalent in cash of what you have taken on credit card loans. Instead of using a credit card loan, you could use the money you have already.

However, you don’t want to do that because you will lose the interest / benefit you are making from where that money is invested.

I’m now going to explain it in simple terms, that even you can understand.

We’ll call the money you have invested already POT A

Instead of using your POT A money, you borrow money really cheap on a 0% credit card balance transfer for 36 months. It’s not completely free as I already explained this and showed the calculations of the net gain in reply #730. We’ll call the money you get from the credit cards POT B.

In a nutshell therefore the net gain is the difference between POT A and POT B

You say the money in POT A is invested tax free in an ISA, so the net gain increases from my previous calculation in #730, meaning that now the net gain for every £10K invested over 36 months is £731.00. But, because you are limited to a maximum of £20,000 cash in an ISA every year, the maximum possible gain over three years for having £60K of credit card debt is £2,193.

Here’s the bit that you don’t seem to understand.

Whether you put the credit card money into the stock market, pay your weekly shopping bill, sacrifice some salary, spend it at the casino, put it into stocks and shares. Lose it all, win big, put it into an ISA, it’s all completely irrelevant.

If you have the cash already, the only gain you are making is the difference between POT A and POT B. Because you could easily already do all of these things you say you are doing using your existing money.

All the other figures you’re quoting is just smoke and mirrors, pie in the sky.

[Darren101]

Wiki:
S&P 500 stands for Standard & Poor's 500 Index. It is a stock market index that tracks the performance of 500 of the largest publicly traded companies in the United States, representing approximately 80% of the total U.S. market capitalization

The FTSE 100 stands for the Financial Times Stock Exchange 100 Index. It is an index of the 100 most highly capitalized, or "blue-chip," companies listed on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) and is often referred to informally as the "Footsie"

I have the vanguard FTSE “all world” VWRP : so exposed to both FTSE100 and S&P 500 (albeit not equally).


But there are other / more specific (riskier?) FTSE options:

Hidden Image/Members Only

Hidden Image/Members Only

   I'd never thought to look up what they acronyms stood for. The all world FTSE sounds interesting.   

The S&P 500 does include Tech as they are big players in the US but if you just want Tech then it's the Nasdaq you want

Ah, of course! NASDAQ, not S&P being all tech. Thanks.  Not that I need to focus on just tech, just whatever will perform well over time with balanced risk.

[Moby Dick]

Here’s the bit that you don’t seem to understand.

Whether you put the credit card money into the stock market, pay your weekly shopping bill, sacrifice some salary, spend it at the casino, put it into stocks and shares. Lose it all, win big, put it into an ISA, it’s all completely irrelevant.

If you have the cash already, the only gain you are making is the difference between POT A and POT B. Because you could easily already do all of these things you say you are doing using your existing money.

All the other figures you’re quoting is just smoke and mirrors, pie in the sky.

I understand perfectly thank you.
I don’t have a problem with it. It’s you that are having difficulties.

I don’t know why I bother, but one last attempt.

This allows me to do more! 
I now have 2 pots!
Credit Card Stoozing allows me to invest more into my pension or S&S ISAs.!I wouldn’t do this with out first having a buffer. It’s a safety net.

I mentioned this some time ago:

There is no pain, no gains to lose unless you have to sell your stocks / cash in.
Thats why you have a buffer, at least 3 months, preferably 2 years short term “available” money. Get this cushion first before investing in the stock markets and you will have nothing to worry about.

Overall the Dow is up 20% and FTSE up 34% over the last 12 months. It’s been a great year for my investments.

I disagree with most / if not all of the other bollocks you have posted above, especially your continued reference to your incorrect calculation in reply #730.

You say the money in POT A is invested tax free in an ISA, so the net gain increases from my previous calculation in #730, meaning that now the net gain for every £10K invested over 36 months is £731.00. But, because you are limited to a maximum of £20,000 cash in an ISA every year, the maximum possible gain over three years for having £60K of credit card debt is £2,193

I disagree for the same reasons previously explained.
£60k saved at an average 4.5% would give £2700 a year x 3 years is over £8600 due to compound interest not £2193 !!
You need to get a new calculator! Try this

External Link/Members Only

Also I am not limited to £60k, or 3x£20k annual isa limits. (I have savings from previous tax years, and other options paying more than 4.5% interest)

I mentioned numerous times that I don’t really care how much interest I make from my “buffer”. Those details don’t matter. I would do it even if it made nothing because the buffer allows me to invest my money elsewhere knowing I still have a safety net. I wouldn’t be able to put as much as I do into my pension without the cash flow / buffer my credit card “stoozing” provides.

Maybe this helps: if I had to stop working tomorrow, say I CBA anymore and told my boss to fuck off, or any other reasons, I could do so and take the next 3 years off. I could spend the readily available money I have accrued from credit cards and live without any drop in net income. When the money runs out or I need to pay off the credit cards I can simply draw down a portion of my pension tax free to pay them off.
Yes I could do that now (or when I am 55) but a further 3 years compounded growth on my assets that I can leave in my pension is a significant reason to do it.

It allows me to do what I want to do now, rather than later.
Not smoke and mirrors or pie in the sky!

[diver ted]

Moby Dick and PilotMan or
PilotMan and Moby Dick

You are both great assets to the UKP and to this thread however it feels like you're stuck in a bit of a loop with the 'stoozing' carousel matters.

In jest I was going to proffer
External Link/Members Only
We offer impartial, professional and accredited mediation services that help you resolve disputes, rebuild trust, and find common ground, with a success rate of over 95%

Though with both of you financially canny enough to resolve your differences without any expenditure - how about you agree to disagree on this issue and please both resume giving valuable advice on other matters (both financial and punting)?

Uberrima fides (utmost good faith)
DT

[Moby Dick]

Moby Dick and PilotMan or
PilotMan and Moby Dick

You are both great assets to the UKP and to this thread however it feels like you're stuck in a bit of a loop with the 'stoozing' carousel matters.

In jest I was going to proffer
External Link/Members Only
We offer impartial, professional and accredited mediation services that help you resolve disputes, rebuild trust, and find common ground, with a success rate of over 95%

Though with both of you financially canny enough to resolve your differences without any expenditure - how about you agree to disagree on this issue and please both resume giving valuable advice on other matters (both financial and punting)?

Uberrima fides (utmost good faith)
DT

 

[PilotMan]

I understand perfectly thank you.
I don’t have a problem with it. It’s you that are having difficulties.

I don’t know why I bother, but one last attempt.

Oh please keep going, I'm enjoying making a mockery of your calculations 

[PilotMan]

@Mobydick

You are so far entrenched in your position that you can't see the wood for the trees, as they say.

The outcome of all the things you do is great, I understand what and where and why you're putting the money where you do. That makes perfect sense.

If doing all this shuffling makes you money, that's great. If psychologically that feels better to you, great. I'm all for people feeling good about what they're doing. If it makes you feel like you have a buffer great. If the only reason you do it is because you feel you have a buffer, that's great. I get that you’re getting emotional about it, but money has no emotion of itself.  Money doesn't care about your feelings, it's a means to an end. Money is completely inert (inflation aside), until used.


Basic economics

Output / Return

When you put £1 in to any of your schemes (be it investment or cashflow, pension, stock market etc), no matter where it comes from that £1 always has the same power, it will get the same return.
 It doesn't matter whether you used money from a credit card, you borrowed from a friend, you took it from under the mattress, you got it from an inheritance, Bob down the pub lent it to you or it came from your wages.
E.g. Bob down the pub is a good friend and he really likes you, so he lets you have £60k and says just give me £60k back in three years, it's a favour.
No matter where you invest the £60k, it will still get the same return as £60k from any other source.


The source is completely and totally irrelevant to the return on the investment, the investment result is always the same - because £1 invested is always £1, no matter where it comes from


Input

So, if £1 invested is £1, and it gives the same result, no matter where it comes from. The only difference is the cost of where it comes from – that’s called the input cost.
That's why you use the credit card, because the input cost of using your credit card works out cheaper than input cost of taking it out of your investments (i.e. using existing well invested money) - that makes sense, I get it.

Gain

How it makes you feel emotionally is one thing, but what I'm showing you is the gain. And the only gain is the difference between the input cost and the output return.

It's basic economics.

In your case you are using your using your credit card (input cost) to invest, which gives a slight gain over using your other input sources (e.g. cash you already have). You deduct that input cost from the return, and that’s the gain.

There are no other gains anywhere, they don't exist.

It's really that simple.

[PilotMan]

I disagree with most / if not all of the other bollocks you have posted above, especially your continued reference to your incorrect calculation in reply #730.

I disagree for the same reasons previously explained.
£60k saved at an average 4.5% would give £2700 a year x 3 years is over £8600 due to compound interest not £2193 !!

This claim of £8,600 is what I mean when I say Smoke and Mirrors and Pie in the Sky.

You just focus on headline gross return that the using the money from a credit card is giving you – here’s the reality.

My previous figures were based on 3.5%, but I’ll do it based on 4.5%

•   You fail to take in to account the monthly repayments you have to make to service the loan which is £60,000 divided by 36 months - £1,666.66 per month starting from the end of month 1 – you’re not earning interest on the whole £60k for three years – at the end of the three years you’re not earning any interest, because you would have had to repay the credit card each month.

•   You will pay 40% tax on the interest, you already said you’re a higher rate tax payer.

Real World Calculations

•   After three years of borrowing £60k on a credit card at, putting that in to a deposit account at 4.5% APR, taking in to account repaying the credit card every month at £1,666.66 and annual tax deductions of 40%.

•   The net return is £3,358.07 not £8,600

Here's how the figures look in the final year of three years doing this "stoozing".




Hidden Image/Members Only

[Squire Haggard]

I was doing a lot of this free balance transfer credit card thingy over twenty years ago. They did not have any monthly repayments or interest charges at all. You had to make sure that you transferred to another card or paid it off at the end of the ''loan'' period.  Some now charge a fee, but I never paid one then.

[Moby Dick]

Thank you Pilotman

Love the spreadsheet thingymajig. Is that just for me? I am guessing you aren’t really a pilot?
I can see some fundamental mistakes but I CBA to correct them now. Maybe next week.
I’ve got a busy weekend planned with my Credit Card. The more I spend the more I save 

[Moby Dick]

I was doing a lot of this free balance transfer credit card thingy over twenty years ago. They did not have any monthly repayments or interest charges at all. You had to make sure that you transferred to another card or paid it off at the end of the ''loan'' period.  Some now charge a fee, but I never paid one then.

Yes I’ve been doing it for 20years or more and still at it.
Some do try and charge a one off upfront fee but over the period it  generally equates to less than 1% APR.
I remember years ago when they first introduced the fee I phoned them up, it was always by phone in those days, and said I didn’t want to pay the fee. His response “so you just want free money?”  I said “yes please, it’s what I am used to, and my other card provider don’t have fees”. “Ok” was his response.
Purchase cards don’t have fees. I can spend £2k a month on these especially if busy at work “entertaining”. and doing high mileage. All gets reimbursed to me (not the bank/credit card) within the month. Helps cash flow,

[PilotMan]

I was doing a lot of this free balance transfer credit card thingy over twenty years ago. They did not have any monthly repayments or interest charges at all. You had to make sure that you transferred to another card or paid it off at the end of the ''loan'' period.  Some now charge a fee, but I never paid one then.

@Moby Dick

Show me one that allows you to do that now - i.e. you can take the whole balance and pay nothing for 36 months?

[PilotMan]

Thank you Pilotman


I can see some fundamental mistakes but I CBA to correct them now. Maybe next week.

I'd love to see that.

I did make an omission, I forgot to add any upfront fee that the card company charges.

But I'll let you go first 

[Squire Haggard]

Here's some cards.......

@PM  It sounds too good to be true but you really can kick the can down the road for years, for free.

I gave up on this long ago probably because most/all were starting to ask for an upfront  fee. Reading this thread has made me think about starting to do it again, as many cards are again free of upfront fees. I assume that its all done via websites now rather than the old steam driven days of by phone.

External Link/Members Only

[PilotMan]

Here's some cards.......

@PM  It sounds too good to be true but you really can kick the can down the road for years, for free.

I gave up on this long ago probably because most/all were starting to ask for an upfront  fee. Reading this thread has made me think about starting to do it again, as many cards are again free of upfront fees. I assume that its all done via websites now rather than the old steam driven days of by phone.

External Link/Members Only

Thanks Squire

These are the sources of information that I've been using and how I've done my calculations. My calculations are based on those source figures and in the way Moby Dick says he is using the card and "investing" it for 36 months.

Important points to note:

You must repay a minimum amount each month. None of them allow you to make a balance transfer and make NO monthly repayments on the new debt.

The longer the 0% interest period, the higher the transfer fee - all 36 month deals have fees of a minimum of 3%.



Hidden Image/Members Only

Hidden Image/Members Only

[PilotMan]

@Moby Dick

Question for you?

The % Balance Transfers work on the basis that you already have a credit card debt that you are going to transfer. The card company will do the transfer clearing your existing card balance. They don't deposit cash in to your account.

EG;

Card A - has a debt of £10k - that's -£10,000

You transfer the balance to card B - a new 0% card.

Card B now has a balance of -£10,000

Now you've used up the 0% introductory rate to pay off another card, so how are you funding ISA's or any other investment?

[Darren101]

MD said he was using 0% on Purchases cards.  Those are no upfront fees, but you do need to pay monthly, which is just the minimum payment.  If he did also use 0% transfer, there’s the upfront fee (never seen a free one myself). If he used this, it just means he wouldn’t need to pay the lump sum right away so he’d just pay the minimum and still have more money to play with.


Does anyone here use IG Trading? I opened one last month because they were doing a deposit match up to £200.  I can’t quite get the hang of this app/site compared to T212 which is piss easy to use.  I’ve managed to buy a very small amount of Natwest and S&P after a lot of fiddling but the rest is still cash… just can’t seem to get the orders placed.

[Massagemanmr]

MD said he was using 0% on Purchases cards.  Those are no upfront fees, but you do need to pay monthly, which is just the minimum payment.  If he did also use 0% transfer, there’s the upfront fee (never seen a free one myself). If he used this, it just means he wouldn’t need to pay the lump sum right away so he’d just pay the minimum and still have more money to play with.


Does anyone here use IG Trading? I opened one last month because they were doing a deposit match up to £200.  I can’t quite get the hang of this app/site compared to T212 which is piss easy to use.  I’ve managed to buy a very small amount of Natwest and S&P after a lot of fiddling but the rest is still cash… just can’t seem to get the orders placed.

i used to use IG spread betting and i hated the interface but they had good selection of markets, so was thinking to try 212 , what do you think of them?

[Darren101]

T212 seems to be everyone’s go to currently.  Very easy to use.  Only thing is their fees might be higher than IG’s for each trade possibly.  That aside, they also provide a debit card for day to day spending and pay cashback.  All balances pay interest.

I have a small S&S ISA pot with them and just general stocks/ETFs. Never done the spread bet thing.

[RandomGuy99]

The Rich List

BBC News - Rich List: Beckhams become billionaires as Oasis appear for first time - BBC News
External Link/Members Only

The organisers of Glastonbury made the list with £400M.

Oasis with £375M

[Rick2468]

The Rich List

BBC News - Rich List: Beckhams become billionaires as Oasis appear for first time - BBC News
External Link/Members Only

The organisers of Glastonbury made the list with £400M.

Oasis with £375M

I was surprised to see the Glastonbury organisers on the list. I thought they made a big point that they gave all their profits away to charity and I remember seeing a quote from Michael Eavis saying they kept no reserves (just found the quote, it is from 2010: External Link/Members Only). I don't begrudge them for it, they put on an amazing show without corporate sponsors being rammed down their throat. It does make me wonder if the rich list is largely made up though.

[Munter84]

This is probably a good way to bankrupt myself but with all the stock market volatility recently I've been tempted to do a bit of day trading.

Anyone have any tips, particularly for suitable low-fee platforms?

[RandomGuy99]

I was surprised to see the Glastonbury organisers on the list. I thought they made a big point that they gave all their profits away to charity and I remember seeing a quote from Michael Eavis saying they kept no reserves (just found the quote, it is from 2010: External Link/Members Only). I don't begrudge them for it, they put on an amazing show without corporate sponsors being rammed down their throat. It does make me wonder if the rich list is largely made up though.

They do own a fair amount of land and do farming too.

Rishi Sunak and his Mrs worth £563M.

[Rick2468]

They do own a fair amount of land and do farming too.

Rishi Sunak and his Mrs worth £563M.

Ah I did think that after I posted. I think they get about £60M to £80M a year from ticket sales, if they were ever to sell the brand they would make a lot of money.

The Glastonbury site is a working farm whilst the festival isn't on. I've been a few times and neighbouring farmers get priority on the roads that cut through the site. So you can be on your way to watch a band and the security make you wait whilst some farmer on their tractor drives past. They never look happy to see us festival goers!

[Squire Haggard]

Does anyone here use IG Trading? I opened one last month because they were doing a deposit match up to £200.  I can’t quite get the hang of this app/site compared to T212 which is piss easy to use.  I’ve managed to buy a very small amount of Natwest and S&P after a lot of fiddling but the rest is still cash… just can’t seem to get the orders placed.

I've had an IG account for about 10 years, and have no problems using it.
I use it online, not with apps.

[Moby Dick]

@Pilotman
Question for you:
Have you ever had a credit card?

[PilotMan]

@Pilotman
Question for you:
Have you ever had a credit card?

Yes, I have one now.

[Moby Dick]

Yes, I have one now.

Well done 
And since having one have you learnt the difference between purchasing, balance transfers, and money transfers?

[PilotMan]

Well done 
And since having one have you learnt the difference between purchasing, balance transfers, and money transfers?

We're on a roll today 

[Blackpool Rock]

Guys can we not come to some common ground here 

My take on it is that is is possible to obtain money / credit on transfer deals etc which can then be saved / invested wherever to obtain an overall slightly better return than you're paying for any transfer fee etc
I did it myself for about 10 -12 years up until the financial crisis around 2008 when deals either dried up or were harder to come by, it also became less lucrative as I believe this was around the same time that many transfer fees were introduced at which point I simply paid the balance off as for me personally doing it small scale it simply wasn't worth the effort (YMMV)

So it is possible to make a bit of money juggling money around however for most people like myself the agro factor / time isn't worth it 
Additionally i'd say that when I was doing it to begin with I was basically broke so doing it just to get by whereas now I don't have any money worries so my incentive is far far less to make a few quid

[PilotMan]

Stoozing works, you can make some money doing it.

The top line figures that MB is quoting, aren't grounded in reality, because they don't take in to account the cost deductions such as the monthly repayments and taxation on the interest.

There's plenty of Youtube videos and articles covering it - here's an article from Which. External Link/Members Only 

The article from Which broadly concurs with my calculations. The best return they came up with for £6k used on a card (in various formats) is £359 - that doesn't take in to account taxation. And also note deposit account interest rates have come down since the article was revised on 4th October 2025.

If MB can show us some actual flowing figures with details to show how he gets to his figures, not hyperbole, that would be great. If not he needs to stop making the claims he's making.

[Blackpool Rock]

PM - I was just trying to calm things down a bit as this has been going round in circles and will continue to do so in a yes it is / no it isn't style discussion which at the end of the day nobody wins 

In the meantime it just clogs the thread up