Poppy appeal

[sir wanksalot]

Volunteers have been tailing off for a few years.

When did the Tower of London have that art display of cascading poppies? Was that 2018? That same year I got in touch with my local British Legion as I had noticed that in 2017 I couldn't find poppy sellers in the places I would normally see them.

I put some of the collection tins in a few different businesses and office receptions and collected quite a bit of cash for them. I also asked a local church if they would have a tin at the back but some bastard nicked the tin one afternoon from the back of church.

It went to show me that many of the volunteers are more used to standing at their local Asda waiting for people to come to them. I think the RBL could be a little bit more savvy in where they stand but, of course, it very much depends on getting the volunteers in.

[willie loman]

when you say 'countless' Willie how many do you think there are? Royal British Legion have 6 homes nationwide, who else runs them?

Other occupations do have specific care homes - the Freemasons do and Denville House runs for the theatrical profession.

Why shouldn't our servicemen have care homes specifically for them? - many of the occupants may have injuries from tours of duty, PTSD and there is a strong common bond that would help them in care home. There is nothing to stop others having exclusive homes if they want

And why would people donate to the British Legion to specifically help our brave  servicemen only to find funds  distributed to alll and sundry?

in scotland erskine house cater for ex servicemen, my uncle was accepted as he had done national service, in palestine, , i dont grasp why you are distorting my views, i am merely saying service men are probably looked after more than any other group of workers in this country, and i do buy a poppy, many veterans have hideous injuries and deserve every thing we can offer them, but i for one have my suspicions over the overuse of ptsd.

[chrishornx]

in scotland erskine house cater for ex servicemen, my uncle was accepted as he had done national service, in palestine, , i dont grasp why you are distorting my views, i am merely saying service men are probably looked after more than any other group of workers in this country, and i do buy a poppy, many veterans have hideous injuries and deserve every thing we can offer them, but i for one have my suspicions over the overuse of ptsd.

Sorry Willie not trying to distort anything

You claim there were countless care homes for servicemen and they, servicemen, are disproportionately looked after

I don't see 9 care homes for over 2,00,00 serving and ex servicemen as being in anyway 'countless' or  'disproportionate'

we can beg to differ but i wasn't distorting anything, just questioning your view 

the overuse of PTSD is something that concerns all of us but if any single group of people could perhaps be considered to  not be overusing the term it would be our brave service people

[petermisc]

I think the death of the High Street and traditional Saturday shopping are part of the problem.  A stall in the High Street or shopping centre would traditionally reach a significant percentage of the population.  Nowadays many do their weekly shop on a weekday evening, to leave the weekend free for other things.  The only time I have seen a poppy seller this year was when I went to my local Tesco on Saturday.

[mr.bluesky]

I think the death of the High Street and traditional Saturday shopping are part of the problem.  A stall in the High Street or shopping centre would traditionally reach a significant percentage of the population.  Nowadays many do their weekly shop on a weekday evening, to leave the weekend free for other things.  The only time I have seen a poppy seller this year was when I went to my local Tesco on Saturday.

Not only that but the amount of people who do on line shopping will have an effect.  People just don't have a reason to leave their house anymore to do their shopping

[willie loman]

Sorry Willie not trying to distort anything

You claim there were countless care homes for servicemen and they, servicemen, are disproportionately looked after

I don't see 9 care homes for over 2,00,00 serving and ex servicemen as being in anyway 'countless' or  'disproportionate'

we can beg to differ but i wasn't distorting anything, just questioning your view 

the overuse of PTSD is something that concerns all of us but if any single group of people could perhaps be considered to  not be overusing the term it would be our brave service people

The british legion are not the only care homes that assist ex service men, as i pointed out, up in scotland erskine house  care homes are for veterans, a few seconds on google should disabuse you of the idea that the british legion is the only provider of accommodation for veterans, there is no other profession with quite as much access to exclusive accommodation as the  ex military. Though ex priests tend to be looked after reasonably well.by the church.

[Blackpool Rock]

The british legion are not the only care homes that assist ex service men, as i pointed out, up in scotland erskine house  care homes are for veterans, a few seconds on google should disabuse you of the idea that the british legion is the only provider of accommodation for veterans, there is no other profession with quite as much access to exclusive accommodation as the  ex military. Though ex priests tend to be looked after reasonably well.by the church.

Yeah well I guess the prisons are full 

[chrishornx]

The british legion are not the only care homes that assist ex service men, as i pointed out, up in scotland erskine house  care homes are for veterans, a few seconds on google should disabuse you of the idea that the british legion is the only provider of accommodation for veterans, there is no other profession with quite as much access to exclusive accommodation as the  ex military. Though ex priests tend to be looked after reasonably well.by the church.

never suggested that the RBL was the only provide, my figure included Erskine

 Yes there are a few more like Jellico, Royal Star and Garter,, the Royal Chelsea Hospital not by any stretch of the imagination a 'disproportionate number'.

you will, again with a google search, probably find more freemason homes and as you mention ex church

[RadioKid]

It was and it still is, hence my failing to understand why, suddenly, it has lost its high profile on this day of the year.  There have been some interesting responses on the thread, and it has made me wonder whether some who would normally wear a poppy have been intimidated into not wearing one, or even buying one?  If so, we've got ourselves into a bad place as a nation.

Same reason I don't donate to food banks anymore.
External Link/Members Only
Jacob Reese Mogg tried to frame it as positive that there were so many food banks. That it was a Conservetive Victory.

I find it challenging to reconcile this symbolic and historic peace symbol with the ongoing hypocrisy of numerous wars and the global ignorance towards widespread suffering and loss of life. It seems paradoxical these Politicians wear Poppies but then ensure weapons and ammunition are sold to several ingoing conflicts. Like I said, personal choice.

[sir wanksalot]

Same reason I don't donate to food banks anymore.
External Link/Members Only
Jacob Reese Mogg tried to frame it as positive that there were so many food banks. That it was a Conservetive Victory.

I find it challenging to reconcile this symbolic and historic peace symbol with the ongoing hypocrisy of numerous wars and the global ignorance towards widespread suffering and loss of life. It seems paradoxical these Politicians wear Poppies but then ensure weapons and ammunition are sold to several ingoing conflicts. Like I said, personal choice.

There's a danger of over-thinking everything here.

You COULD wear a poppy in remembrance of those who gave their lives to give YOU the choice not to wear one.

[RedKettle]

Same reason I don't donate to food banks anymore.
External Link/Members Only
Jacob Reese Mogg tried to frame it as positive that there were so many food banks. That it was a Conservetive Victory.

I find it challenging to reconcile this symbolic and historic peace symbol with the ongoing hypocrisy of numerous wars and the global ignorance towards widespread suffering and loss of life. It seems paradoxical these Politicians wear Poppies but then ensure weapons and ammunition are sold to several ingoing conflicts. Like I said, personal choice.

I simply wear it out of respect.

Not wearing it would feel like giving in, something our service people tend not to do.

[Jomoore]

There's a danger of over-thinking everything here.

You COULD wear a poppy in remembrance of those who gave their lives to give YOU the choice not to wear one.

+1 

[hullad]

I am ex RAF and I was not on parade this morning I never have gone recently, I did go yesterday to my local cenotaph. The British Legion is without doubt a poor organisation in its operation and delivery of services. It is riddled with rank obsession in appointing people to its council, corporals need not apply. I remember a few years ago nearly every large town or city had a legion club, not anymore. A few years ago The legion HQ  came up with this great idea of getting all these independently owned and run clubs to sign them over to HQ. They duly did this and within a few years they where all closed down  abd sold off, the ones left are ex servicemen clubs not ever part of the Legion. Millions of pounds into the coffers and what for I ask, plenty of pay for the 'officers' of the legion. The number of ex-servicemen it serves drops year on year due to the falling roll of service men.When I joined in 1968 there where around 650,000 personel now its 152,00 so the numbers involved are less in the future.



I buy a poppy and wear it with pride, I still see my grandad with his first world war comrades en mass marching though the town. There generation fought in awful conditions in a bloody war that only laid the foundations of the second world war and more death, destruction. I joined the RAF wanting to serve my country and I was not involved in a war except the troubles in NI, but that's nor for here.

[Blackpool Rock]

I am ex RAF and I was not on parade this morning I never have gone recently, I did go yesterday to my local cenotaph. The British Legion is without doubt a poor organisation in its operation and delivery of services. It is riddled with rank obsession in appointing people to its council, corporals need not apply. I remember a few years ago nearly every large town or city had a legion club, not anymore. A few years ago The legion HQ  came up with this great idea of getting all these independently owned and run clubs to sign them over to HQ. They duly did this and within a few years they where all closed down  abd sold off, the ones left are ex servicemen clubs not ever part of the Legion. Millions of pounds into the coffers and what for I ask, plenty of pay for the 'officers' of the legion. The number of ex-servicemen it serves drops year on year due to the falling roll of service men.When I joined in 1968 there where around 650,000 personel now its 152,00 so the numbers involved are less in the future.



I buy a poppy and wear it with pride, I still see my grandad with his first world war comrades en mass marching though the town. There generation fought in awful conditions in a bloody war that only laid the foundations of the second world war and more death, destruction. I joined the RAF wanting to serve my country and I was not involved in a war except the troubles in NI, but that's nor for here.

I'm assuming you mean in your memory 

[mills_and_bhuna]

It's a long time since we were at war ...

It's certainly been a long time since we fought a defensive war to protect this country.

[Colston36]

If you reflect that it is over a century since the appeal began this is really not that surprising.

[hullad]

I'm assuming you mean in your memory 

Yes of course

It's a memory etched into my brain I do find it difficult to imagine all those men are long gone and that parades are getting smaller year on year.

In time it will become history like Trafalgar or Waterloo abd hopefully the reasons for war become also part of history

[Jomoore]

It's certainly been a long time since we fought a defensive war to protect this country.

The rationale for going into Iraq and Afghanistan was that it was to defend this country from the extremists there.  While I'm a loyal Brit, I didn't either understand or agree with that rationale.  We wasted our young soldiers' lives for nothing IMHO.
But to honour the bravery of those lost in those conflicts, we still need to display the poppy, particularly in the face of those who disrespect the memory of those patriots.

[Blackpool Rock]

Yes of course

It's a memory etched into my brain I do find it difficult to imagine all those men are long gone and that parades are getting smaller year on year.

In time it will become history like Trafalgar or Waterloo abd hopefully the reasons for war become also part of history

Unfortunately I think we are resigned to knock lumps out of each other for the foreseeable future in just the same way that we have been doing since the start of time 

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Unfortunately I think we are resigned to knock lumps out of each other for the foreseeable future in just the same way that we have been doing since the start of time 

Sad to say all too true:{{

[GreyDave]

[I buy a poppy and wear it with pride, I still see my grandad with his first world war comrades en mass marching though the town. There generation fought in awful conditions in a bloody war that only laid the foundations of the second world war and more death, destruction. I joined the RAF wanting to serve my country and I was not involved in a war except the troubles in NI, but that's nor for here.
[/quote]

Ive really mixed feelings as have many about the Poppy and all that surrounds it    for myself I feel that the Poppy represents, All those young people who were conscripted in to the 1st and 2nd WWs
Who were forced to do things they would never of done by the govenments of the time that many had not voted for as THEY NEVER HAD A VOTE...Some killed others and died in themselfs as a result and others where killed . ( An elderly realtive told me of the time he and his squad set an ambush up at night in the Jungle... at daylight they went to see who they had got ...Women and children old men.. he started to wellup as he the got angy about the poltics of it all As did another who was in a Bomber that destroyed most of Darmstat 22,000 civillians it was the practise run for Dresden`s firestorm  ... People talk of the lone Serb that shot FF that some how started this. The Serbs did not have any say in there country as it was part of an old Empire.
Just as the Irish rose up with even more anger eventualy forming the Republic when their young men were conscripted in to a war which was not defending the UK, but part of an allaiance pf contracts which those that wrote it never thought would be broken...( yes I know many Irishmen were vounters my distant familly members were.. they stayed here in London area after WW1)

Our govenments (REGARDLESS OF PARTY) MUST look after ex Service people after they have done its bidding ....This country has been the one to delare War on others .... The defence of this country?

Lest we forget ?.....The politicans that have caused these events for 100`s of years ...Those that join the services willingly deserve surport when things are difficult as a result of the choices of our govenments.  We need a defence, yes but a World enforcement of our systems belifes ?  Look after the people... The Poppy was to represent Flanders flowers that grew after the stripping of the land it was a sign of hope and renewal ....alas more than 100 years later and the help these ex servicemen require is still not there...Remember the fallen.... Remember HOW AND WHY TOO ...

 Sorry if a rant its far more than for or against

[Marmalade]

I don't think it is anti-war.

From the British Legion:

Our red poppy is a symbol of both Remembrance and hope for a peaceful future. Poppies are worn as a show of support for the Armed Forces community. The poppy is a well-known and well-established symbol, one that carries a wealth of history and meaning with it.

It goes back to WWI and our lads defending the nation and our way of life.

I don't want to suggest Israel is a country of angels, but if we put aside the fact that Poppy Day is about British forces, Israel is against terrorism. Their democratic way of life has common cause with ours.

To keep going on about ordinary Palestinians not being Hamas supporters has even less relevance than saying we shouldn't have bombed Germany in WWII as not all Germans were Nazi supporters. There's a well-defined moral difference between acts of terrorism and acts of war. If you wear a poppy with thoughts of dead people in the Middle East it should be in remembrance of the people brutally massacred and the IDF risking their lives to defend their country. Or just get with the program and remember it is a British symbol, remembering British soldiers, not to be assimilated as things so often are by any old 'rights' group.

[Marmalade]

You COULD wear a poppy in remembrance of those who gave their lives to give YOU the choice not to wear one.

[PumpDump]

I don't want to suggest Israel is a country of angels, but if we put aside the fact that Poppy Day is about British forces, Israel is against terrorism. Their democratic way of life has common cause with ours.

Oh come on. They commit terrorist atrocities on the Palestinian people again and again. Intentionally bombing hospitals for example.

[Marmalade]

Oh come on. They commit terrorist atrocities on the Palestinian people again and again. Intentionally bombing hospitals for example.

You don't seem to understand the definitions.

Look them up, would you?

[PumpDump]

You don't seem to understand the definitions.

Look them up, would you?

Terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism has been practiced by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and religious groups, by revolutionaries, and even by state institutions such as armies, intelligence services, and police. - External Link/Members Only


Sounds like it fits quite a lot of what Israel does.

[Marmalade]

Terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism has been practiced by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and religious groups, by revolutionaries, and even by state institutions such as armies, intelligence services, and police. - External Link/Members Only


Sounds like it fits quite a lot of what Israel does.

No it doesn't actually. It doesn't matter whether someone thinks it sounds like it does.

The attack on the 7th that started the war was an unprecedented attack by Hamas on civilians, specifically and deliberately targeting civilians to cause terror dragging them off and inflicting horrendous tortures before killing most of them.

Pushing Palestinians out of their homes is not very nice but it's not an act of terror.

Similarly, an act of war targetting militants, even if substantial numbers of civilians are killed as a secondary effect, is not terrorism and under international guidelines is within the rules of a just war. It is well-known that Hamas commanders have built their strongholds and command centres under civilian hospitals, that they use Palestinians as human shields to effect maximum sympathy, that they use Palestinian homes, even before the war, to lodge with civilians in an attempt to discourage targeted attacks. War is never very nice. The numbers killed on both sides, especially the heavily populated civilian side, is not very nice. But the options militarily for Israel are almost nonexistent. Hamas is formally committed to the destruction of Israel. It's in its charter. And in the motto, taken up as an unthinking chant by the peaceniks, "from the river to the sea" (which has just become an arrestable offense in Germany).

If Hamas (in effect, Palestine) put down its arms tomorrow, there would be peace.
If Israel put down its arms tomorrow, it would cease to exist.

But whether we agree with the Israeli actions or not, even if we think that Hamas are really nice people or that they are not really committed to the destruction of Israel, the definitions of "terrorism" and the "rules of war" are still factual definitions held internationally.

[sir wanksalot]

If Hamas (in effect, Palestine) put down its arms tomorrow, there would be peace.
If Israel put down its arms tomorrow, it would cease to exist.

Nailed it!

[GreyDave]

If Hamas (in effect, Palestine) put down its arms tomorrow, there would be peace.
If Israel put down its arms tomorrow, it would cease to exist.

Not quite sure these are words used by General Sherman but copied from a page of his quotes;

This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war.

Sherman was credited ( not sure if thats the word id use    with being the 1st Modern fighting General to take the fight to the Civilian population he flattened towns and Southern people previously Wars were fought on Battlefeilds and Civilians more or less kept afar if possible his veiw was the Civilians surported so they too were part of the problem...

Another quote from him;   War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over. 

[PumpDump]

If Hamas (in effect, Palestine) put down its arms tomorrow, there would be peace.
If Israel put down its arms tomorrow, it would cease to exist.

Feel like I'm talking to Mark Regev. We will have to agree to disagree on this one :-)

[FLYING BLUE]

Nailed it!

Plus 1
FB

[Blackpool Rock]

Edited, thought it was the politic thread

[Marmalade]

Edited, thought it was the politic thread

Fuck sake - thanks for the reminder. I feel it would have been very ease to slip in the mud there. I’m a lazy poster — don’t always bother noticing such things as much as I should when typing quick replies.

[Malvolio]

Volunteers have been tailing off for a few years.

When did the Tower of London have that art display of cascading poppies? Was that 2018? That same year I got in touch with my local British Legion as I had noticed that in 2017 I couldn't find poppy sellers in the places I would normally see them.

It was 2014 - done to commemorate every member of the British Armed Forces who died in WW1, with an identical number of poppies.

[RadioKid]

If Israel put down its arms tomorrow, it would cease to exist.

Funnily enough thats literally the "Vice Versa" of what Palestinian supporters say.

Last I checked, it was Israel bombing Iranian, Syrian and Lebanese regions. Not to mention the issue with the West Bank (Where Hamas doesn't exist). Furthermore, it also dismisses the fact that this conflict exists long before Hamas even existed.

Admittedly i don't care much for the debate arouns this perpetual cobflict... Truth be told, any barometer or criteria whereby the likes of Hamas is criticised - Israel fares far worse. It's a nightmare for any Christian, Muslim or Non-Jew to be anywhere in or near Israel.

[daviemac]

Political / off topic posts stopped after this post. -

Edited, thought it was the politic thread

Any reason for you to continue to post comments that would be only borderline acceptable in the dedicated political thread.   

[Blackpool Rock]

Political / off topic posts stopped after this post. - Any reason for you to continue to post comments that would be only borderline acceptable in the dedicated political thread.   

I'm assuming this is a question for Radiokid to answer after his last post rather than me 

[daviemac]

I'm assuming this is a question for Radiokid to answer after his last post rather than me 

Yes, I posted straight after his post so it was addressed to him, I quoted your post as the reference point of political posting stopping.

[RadioKid]

Political / off topic posts stopped after this post. - Any reason for you to continue to post comments that would be only borderline acceptable in the dedicated political thread.   

Apologies.

[Thephoenix]

I simply wear it out of respect.

I suppose it depends to a certain extent on age and how war has directly affected you.

The first time I remember seeing my father, I must have been 3 years old.
He was back from fighting with the Irish Guards in Operation Market Garden, and had lost a leg serving as a despatch rider.
My mother and I had been staying at my Aunt's house as ours had sustained damage from an incendiary bomb dropped on  nearby houses.

I was part of a large Liverpool family, and I also lost an uncle who's ship was torpedoed in an Atlantic convoy.

One of my younger cousins drowned as a child evacuee when the ship carrying them to Canada was torpedoed.

For myself I did national service in the Australian army which wasn't too pleasant, but nothing compared to the stories my age group heard from our elderly relatives and workmates when growing up postwar.

One of my greatest memories is being invited as a member of civilian emergency services to parade at The Cenataph in London on Remembrance Sunday.