Nurse Lucy Letby Guilty

[Thephoenix]

The 33 year old has been found guilty of 7 counts of murder and 6 charges of attempted murder after a trial lasting 9 months.
This makes her the most prolific child serial killer in modern times.

The crimes took place at Chester's main hospital.
Lucy Letby pleaded not guilty to all charges.

As well as occasional reports in the national press, the local newspapers have been reporting the case in detail.
The evidence seems mainly circumstantial but was substantial.

Even so, despite the jury being instructed to rely entirely on the evidence presented, it must have been hard to look at the innocent looking young woman in the dock, and imagine how this dedicated nurse could commit such crimes.

One jury member was discharged for personal reasons and the remaining eleven were eventually directed to reach a majority verdict.

Those of you who have done jury service will know it's far from perfect.

I hope they've got this one right.

[mr.bluesky]

What an evil bitch, hope she gets locked up and never released,  from the start of this case I thought she was guilty,  how could all these poor babies deaths be down to coincidence.  There must have been a lot of evidence to take her to trial 

[daviemac]

Saw it on the news, couldn't believe how long the consultants had been trying to get her investigated as she was the only single common denominator between the deaths. 

[RandomGuy99]

A very sad case. Those babies should have been safe and the hospital's management let them down.  I hope some of the ex-managers get charged with negligence and put in prison.

There's many things wrong with the NHS these days. Too much arse covering and unwillingness to investigate complaints and take real action.  I don't know how we fix it but it urgently needs fixing.

[mr.bluesky]

Just watching this on the news now, it's incredible how long this went on for and how she managed to get away with it for so long when there were concerns raised about her which were just dismissed out of hand and swept under the carpet by her managers.

[Thephoenix]

External Link/Members Only

Forgot to include a link.

[willie loman]

nine month trial? is there any other country in the world that has justice this slow? In France trials are quite short, 3 days, and courts will even sit till midnight, mind you you can wait on remand for years, in Scotland we have the 90 day rule, no trial , accused goes free.

[Blackpool Rock]

Just watching this on the news now, it's incredible how long this went on for and how she managed to get away with it for so long when there were concerns raised about her which were just dismissed out of hand and swept under the carpet by her managers.

Wasn't it the same with that Beverley Allitt where they didn't deal with it quick enough 

What ever happened to the old line that's always trotted out about how lessons will be learnt 

[Blackpool Rock]

A very sad case. Those babies should have been safe and the hospital's management let them down.  I hope some of the ex-managers get charged with negligence and put in prison.

There's many things wrong with the NHS these days. Too much arse covering and unwillingness to investigate complaints and take real action.  I don't know how we fix it but it urgently needs fixing.

That may still be the case to a large extent however I believe years ago any medical professional was almost made of Teflon and no action was basically ever taken regardless of how incompetent or negligent they had been

[FLYING BLUE]

That's really very sad reading.

In my heart, I always wanted to believe she was 100% innocent.
A very sad day indeed.
FB

[Thephoenix]

Special programme tonight.
BBC 1 N West, 8pm

[lostandfound]

For once I agree with Polly Toynbee

Faced with evil like Lucy Letby’s, we yearn for a rational explanation. Sometimes there is none.

It is right to hold an inquiry, but the hunt for ‘lessons to be learned’ and a system to blame can easily go too far.

Investigators and commentators should remember this: the Letby case is so shocking because such cases are so rare. There always are abominable aberrations in humanity, throwing up cases beyond our understanding: the Moors murderers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley killed five children, Fred and Rosemary West killed 12 girls and young women, Dennis Nilsen killed 12 young men and boys. The nurse Beverley Allitt killed four babies and attempted to murder more. The GP Harold Shipman was found guilty of murdering 15 women, with many more suspected. There’s a lesson in the response: it took a three-year inquiry for judge Dame Janet Smith to estimate he killed 250. Although he is the only British doctor ever convicted of killing patients, that “never again” instinct caused an array of new regulations to re-license and re-validate all doctors, yet they clearly failed to uncover such freakishness. Worse, it led to the cruel “Shipman effect”, in which doctors dare not prescribe enough morphine to dying patients lest data shows people dying sooner under their care. With every dose checked since then, there’s no knowing what extra suffering is caused to the dying due to that “something must be done” impulse.

That should act as a warning against overreaction to the one-off horror of the Letby case. All these infants were expected to recover, to live and thrive. Instead, their lives are unlived, their parents’ lives blighted. And yet there can never be a “never again” guarantee to defend against such freaks of nature: those around Letby found it impossible to suspect this popular and sociable nurse of such monstrous deeds.

IMO the objective reality is that Letby, Shipman, Allitt are extremely rare, and attempting to change things so that another such case would be prevented would do more harm than good.

[willie loman]

For once I agree with Polly Toynbee

IMO the objective reality is that Letby, Shipman, Allitt are extremely rare, and attempting to change things so that another such case would be prevented would do more harm than good.

is that actually true? medical murderers have been common in every country for years, the reality is that medical professions attract weirdoes, time some safeguarding was put in place.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

is that actually true? medical murderers have been common in every country for years, the reality is that medical professions attract weirdoes, time some safeguarding was put in place.

Well i've just had an expecnce of the NHS recnelty and all of them, yes the poor sods which had to clear up after me were excellent just faultless!

The good staff are as saddened and upset as anyone for her bringing their honourable profession into disrepute!

[willie loman]

Well i've just had an expecnce of the NHS recnelty and all of them, yes the poor sods which had to clear up after me were excellent just faultless!

The good staff are as saddened and upset as anyone for her bringing their honourable profession into disrepute!

if you read the papers in any give year , there are plenty of stories from across the world of murdering nurses etc, the fact that the majority of medical staff are fine , is actually utterly irrelevant.

[dynatron]

i also think the head people of the hospital that other consultants voiced there concerns to over this nurse should also be locked up-at least 4 consultants raised their concerns to hospital bosses-these bosses should also be tried for murder

[mr.bluesky]

She was charged on seven counts of murder but records show she was on duty the same time as thirteen baby deaths in total. The incompetent managers who kept sweeping these claims about her under the carpet should be sacked or if they have any consciounce about them they should resign but they probably won't. 

[Backstreetboy]

Regrettably the common denominator amongst so many of these cases is administrators scared to make a decision or rock the boat for fear of damaging their own careers and reputations.

Even as this news was coming out I had to interrupt the broadcast to take a call from a very well known Government agency making a personal apology to me for - as they put it - poor service that has messed me about for three years.

I wouldn't lie down or back down and eventually hey have admitted their error.

If people just did their jobs and not the job they think they have..............

[RandomGuy99]

The incompetent managers who kept sweeping these claims about her under the carpet should be sacked or if they have any consciounce about them they should resign but they probably won't.

Most of them have already left or retired.

I don't know how management can ignore the advice of 7 consultants. One consultant even said I don't want her in my department and the day she came back another baby died. At that point I'd have told her to fuck right off and not come back. The consultants even had to write a letter to her apologising for their accusations. You couldn't make it up.

[puntingking]

This is not the first time the NHS had a nurse who murdered its patients. 

The police wear body cameras. Maybe nurses should do the same. 

Or even better (as alot of patients would not like the cameras) nurses should always work in twos.

Organisations say they will learn lessons but they never do. This would be showing that they actively trying to prevent the next nurse who decides to kill their patients   

[RandomGuy99]

This is not the first time the NHS had a nurse who murdered its patients. 

The police wear body cameras. Maybe nurses should do the same. 

Or even better (as alot of patients would not like the cameras) nurses should always work in twos.

Organisations say they will learn lessons but they never do. This would be showing that they actively trying to prevent the next nurse who decides to kill their patients

It's not practical for nurses to always work in pairs and sadly even working in pairs doesn't eliminate the possibility of a pair of rogue nurses doing harm to patients. Perhaps it's just not possible to totally eliminate this risk. Bodycams could be worn but do these record video of patients emptying their bowels or patients' naked bodues when bandages are being changed. Patients wouldn't want that and you can't constantly pause the video when a nurse is involved in such a procedure.

The only thing that could be done is increasing the amount of CCTV and tracking of staff (swipe card access to areas, AI video tracking of staff, etc.). Staff won't want or like working under those conditions. Genuine mistakes will always happen and staff will feel constantly under scrutiny. Just like drivers of cars make genuine mistakes and accidents happen or you accidentally drive in a bus lane, speed, forget to wear you seatbelt or drive up a one way street. In the past you didn't get fined for these incident mistakes and drivers learned through their mistakes. Now drivers get fined for these mistakes. Drivers feel constantly under scrutiny. Nurses and other staff will feel constantly under even more pressure than they currently are. Every little mistake will be tracked, monitored and reported. Very few of us would be willing to do our jobs under such conditions.

[mr.bluesky]

This has been a very unfortunate isolated incident, let's not get paranoid about hospitals  being staffed by potential mass murderous and asking for everyone to wear body cameras,  it would all add extra costs to the NHS. Nurses do a difficult job as it is without putting more pressure on them. I bet the police force still has more bad coppers in it than the NHS hospitals has bad nurses or doctors . All it takes is one incident and then the lynch mobs gather with their pitch forks looking to string someone up. Hopefully when she is sentenced  she will locked away for good .

[RandomGuy99]

This has been a very unfortunate isolated incident, let's not get paranoid about hospitals  being staffed by potential mass murderous and asking for everyone to wear body cameras,  it would all add extra costs to the NHS. Nurses do a difficult job as it is without putting more pressure on them. I bet the police force still has more bad coppers in it than the NHS hospitals has bad nurses or doctors . All it takes is one incident and then the lynch mobs gather with their pitch forks looking to string someone up.

I think COVID has had an unexpected effect on the medical profession. They've mostly been working hands off and what I'm told by friends who are doctors is that many junior doctors and nurses who did their training during COVID have missed out on some of the more hands on and patient communication skills aspects of the job.  Hospitals are having to run catch up sessions for these stsff to get them up to the level they were supposed to be at before they graduated from their courses.

[Blackpool Rock]

Most of them have already left or retired.

I don't know how management can ignore the advice of 7 consultants. One consultant even said I don't want her in my department and the day she came back another baby died. At that point I'd have told her to fuck right off and not come back. The consultants even had to write a letter to her apologising for their accusations. You couldn't make it up.

Logically there could be grounds for some sort of action against the Management along the lines of Corporate Manslaughter etc 

[puntingking]

It's not practical for nurses to always work in pairs and sadly even working in pairs doesn't eliminate the possibility of a pair of rogue nurses doing harm to patients. Perhaps it's just not possible to totally eliminate this risk. Bodycams could be worn but do these record video of patients emptying their bowels or patients' naked bodues when bandages are being changed. Patients wouldn't want that and you can't constantly pause the video when a nurse is involved in such a procedure.

The only thing that could be done is increasing the amount of CCTV and tracking of staff (swipe card access to areas, AI video tracking of staff, etc.). Staff won't want or like working under those conditions. Genuine mistakes will always happen and staff will feel constantly under scrutiny. Just like drivers of cars make genuine mistakes and accidents happen or you accidentally drive in a bus lane, speed, forget to wear you seatbelt or drive up a one way street. In the past you didn't get fined for these incident mistakes and drivers learned through their mistakes. Now drivers get fined for these mistakes. Drivers feel constantly under scrutiny. Nurses and other staff will feel constantly under even more pressure than they currently are. Every little mistake will be tracked, monitored and reported. Very few of us would be willing to do our jobs under such conditions.

they need to do something and if they only did this then most people would welcome it.

[maxQ]

Logically there could be grounds for some sort of action against the Management along the lines of Corporate Manslaughter etc 

Seems a bit too much for me, the top management of any hospital are too far removed, to hold them responsible, it really isn't their fault

Yesterday I took a look at her wiki page to see if it had some more info, not really

External Link/Members Only

But if you read the other cases, you can see there are worse stories, where the authorities should have done more

She was arrested in 2018, why did the trial take so long ?

[RandomGuy99]

Seems a bit too much for me, the top management of any hospital are too far removed, to hold them responsible, it really isn't their fault

Yesterday I took a look at her wiki page to see if it had some more info, not really

External Link/Members Only

But if you read the other cases, you can see there are worse stories, where the authorities should have done more

She was arrested in 2018, why did the trial take so long ?

In this case the top management including Director of Nursing and the Chief Executive of the hospital were all aware of the concerns and basically told the consultants to shut up or they'd be reporter to the General Medical Council (GMC) which could have resulted in them being struck off as doctors. They were gagged. The nurse continued killing babies.

The management need to be in court and sent to prison for negligence.

BBC News - Lucy Letby: Hospital bosses were misled, former chair claims
External Link/Members Only

BBC News - Lucy Letby: Investigating the UK's most prolific child killer
External Link/Members Only

BBC News - Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby
External Link/Members Only

[timsussex]

Seems a bit too much for me, the top management of any hospital are too far removed, to hold them responsible, it really isn't their fault
.....

Really ?

External Link/Members Only

or The Times

The files that reveal how Lucy Letby was treated as a victim
When doctors warned that she might be a killer, hospital bosses took her side — offering to support her with a master’s degree and find her a role at a top children’s hospital

[Blackpool Rock]

Seems a bit too much for me, the top management of any hospital are too far removed, to hold them responsible, it really isn't their fault

Yesterday I took a look at her wiki page to see if it had some more info, not really

External Link/Members Only

But if you read the other cases, you can see there are worse stories, where the authorities should have done more

She was arrested in 2018, why did the trial take so long ?

Not if 7 consultants all flagged concerns and it can be shown that those concerns were shared with the top management directly

[PepeMAGA]

As she's not admitting to it, I guess we may never know the motivation. she seems normal, nothing to suggest she has psychopathic traits?

[RandomGuy99]

As she's not admitting to it, I guess we may never know the motivation. she seems normal, nothing to suggest she has psychopathic traits?

There's also a suggestion that she may have been having an affair with a married doctor who gave evidence behind a screen.

BBC News - What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court
External Link/Members Only

[maxQ]

Not if 7 consultants all flagged concerns and it can be shown that those concerns were shared with the top management directly

OK, didn't know that 7 consultants told the management there was a serious problem

Its a fucked up case, she's 100% psychopath, its just impossible to stop them IMO 

[timsussex]

while not suggesting we should feel sorry for her - she spent 14 days in the witness box for a total of over 60 hrs - not sure how I would hold up to that

[RandomGuy99]

while not suggesting we should feel sorry for her - she spent 14 days in the witness box for a total of over 60 hrs - not sure how I would hold up to that

If you read this you will see that the prosecution were getting close to breaking her in court but she chose to stop the proceedings.  She thought she could beat the prosecution's lawyer and came off the worse in each argument. It seems that she was well briefed and rehearsed in giving her version of events. She clearly has rationalised her actions. She must have some mental issues apparently there was a hint of God complex in her messages to colleagues.

BBC News - What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court
External Link/Members Only

No doubt the Sunday papers will be full of further revelations.

[timsussex]

I read that article and I'll stand by my comment that I wonder how we would cope with 60 hours of questioning by a top lawyer over 14 days and have everything we have ever written (including here  ) brought up in court

[RandomGuy99]

I read that article and I'll stand by my comment that I wonder how we would cope with 60 hours of questioning by a top lawyer over 14 days and have everything we have ever written (including here  ) brought up in court

We wouldn't. She did because she clearly spent a lot of time preparing for her testimony and her lawyers had taught her a few techniques to prevent further questioning.  A sane person wouldn't do the crimes she committed. Apparently she had a difficult birth herself and that is what led her to become a nurse. It is impossible to understand why she would commit such crimes.  Her motive may one day be revealed. Lawyers are professional debaters.  You're never going to win against them.

[myothernameis]

What an evil bitch, hope she gets locked up and never released,  from the start of this case I thought she was guilty,  how could all these poor babies deaths be down to coincidence.  There must have been a lot of evidence to take her to trial 

So she is guilty, but there need to be questions asked about her state of mind, and why these babies were killed.  So does she have some sort of mental illness, which might have contributed deaths

[mr.bluesky]

So she is guilty, but there need to be questions asked about her state of mind, and why these babies were killed.  So does she have some sort of mental illness, which might have contributed deaths

Maybe she was just born "evil" 

[puntingking]

Maybe she was just born "evil" 

I don't believe people are born evil.

I do believe that if a child is growing up with a lack of love then by adulthood they may not be able to give love out to others. You can't give out what you don't have yourself.

For instance, child abuse victims may turn into abusers when reach adulthood. 

I used to watch lots of serial killers documentary and most had really awful parents or was abused severely when they was a child.

The brain is a sponge when young. If somebody feeds it hate then they will absorb that and will past on hate. 
If someone feeds it love then they will past that on to others

There are always exemptions though.

[DastardlyDick]

offering to support her with a master’s degree and find her a role at a top children’s hospital

Thank God that one never happened!

[DastardlyDick]

they need to do something and if they only did this then most people would welcome it.

Unfortunately, no amount of Security, monitoring or whatever will ptevent someone who is determined/clever enough to carry out a crime whether it be through malice or mental health issues. It makes them easier to catch after the event, but that's about it.

[ulstersubbie]

I don't believe people are born evil.

I used to watch lots of serial killers documentary and most had really awful parents or was abused severely when they was a child.

Your first sentence is debatable. A number of serial killers/mass murderers came from normal homes where there was love and stability. Letby appears to be one of those people, what her parents must be going through one can only imagine.

[mr.bluesky]

Your first sentence is debatable. A number of serial killers/mass murderers came from normal homes where there was love and stability. Letby appears to be one of those people, what her parents must be going through one can only imagine.

Exactly, apparently she came from a normal loving family background.  You mean to tell me that Hitler wasn't born evil  Blaming a person's background is often used as a scapegoat.  You make your own choices in life.

[DastardlyDick]

In this case the top management including Director of Nursing and the Chief Executive of the hospital were all aware of the concerns and basically told the consultants to shut up or they'd be reporter to the General Medical Council (GMC) which could have resulted in them being struck off as doctors. They were gagged. The nurse continued killing babies.

Hospital Consultants are not above bullying or making malicious allegations to get rid of someone they don't like, for whatever reason - maybe these 7 had "form" for that?
I've worked in the Public Sector, and the level of  back stabbing and general nastiness that goes on is huge. I had one
gay supervisor who  could pretty much do what he liked because the minute any Investigation was started against him, he'd  just say that the victim or the investigator had made a homophobic comment - case dropped - he openly admitted that that was his MO - he's still in post, and looking for promotion, I'm told.

[daviemac]

Hospital Consultants are not above bullying or making malicious allegations to get rid of someone they don't like, for whatever reason - maybe these 7 had "form" for that?
I've worked in the Public Sector, and the level of  back stabbing and general nastiness that goes on is huge. I had one
gay supervisor who  could pretty much do what he liked because the minute any Investigation was started against him, he'd  just say that the victim or the investigator had made a homophobic comment - case dropped - he openly admitted that that was his MO - he's still in post, and looking for promotion, I'm told.

Are you really suggesting that 7 hospital consultants conspired to make false accusations against Lucy Letby, when the concerns they raised that she was the only single common denominator in all of the deaths have been proved to be justified?

[RandomGuy99]

Hospital Consultants are not above bullying or making malicious allegations to get rid of someone they don't like, for whatever reason - maybe these 7 had "form" for that?
I've worked in the Public Sector, and the level of  back stabbing and general nastiness that goes on is huge.

This wasn't allegations of turning up late.  This was multiple baby deaths. The evidence was there and was ignored. The consultants clearly felt scared of damaging their careers. You might ignore one consultant. You shouldn't ignore 7 consultants and presumably the other nurses also had suspicions. The woman clearly has some kind of mental health condition and action should have been taken much much earlier.  There are now suspicions that she may have killed at her previous hospital.  There is more to come on this case.

The whole NHS needs a huge shake up. Well really the whole of the UK needs a massive shake up.  We have children clearly being abused and then killed by their parents. All the agencies knew of the abuse and didn't protect the children.  I would rather action be taken early than no action be taken and people die. The whole culture seems to that nobody wants to rock the boat in case they are found to be wrong. Everyone covers their arse, ticks the boxes, gets paid and wants an easy life.  People are dying due to lack of action.  It is appalling.  They should stick some of them in prison as examples and if that requires new laws to be introduced then do that.

[DastardlyDick]

Are you really suggesting that 7 hospital consultants conspired to make false accusations against Lucy Letby, when the concerns they raised that she was the only single common denominator in all of the deaths have been proved to be justified?

No, not about her specifically, as a general thing. Is that the concern they raised? I haven't been following the case closely.

[RandomGuy99]

No, not about her specifically, as a general thing. Is that the concern they raised? I haven't been following the case closely.

BBC News - Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby
External Link/Members Only

[daviemac]

No, not about her specifically, as a general thing. Is that the concern they raised? I haven't been following the case closely.

Yes, that's exactly the concerns they raised, they were even made to write a letter of apology to her for any distress caused by the accusations. The outgoing head also told the new incoming one she should report the consultants to the GMC, the threat that had been hanging over them when they raised their concerns.

To dismiss their concerns out of hand is criminal, there should have been a full investigation to determine if there was any truth in it. If it was then found to be a malicious accusation action could have been taken against the doctors, but the nurse could have been stopped a lot sooner if they had been found to be true.

[DastardlyDick]

The consultants clearly felt scared of damaging their careers.

And there you've hit the nail on the head - if they've gone to management and said "this is damaging my career" and making what appeared to be false/malicious allegations based on circumstantial evidence, I'm not surprised they were told to go away.
Let's not forget it's taken a team of Detectives a long time to gather sufficient evidence to get this mad/evil woman charged and convicted, and they didn't have a hospital to run at the same time. We're all voicing opinions with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, but not a luxury these people had available to them.
From the little I've seen about this tragic case, Letby was quite clever in that she spaced her killings out over a period of time, rather than go on one crazed spree, and the number of deaths that must occur naturally in a PBU would have covered a lot of them.