Author Topic: Nurse Lucy Letby Guilty  (Read 33401 times)

Offline jackdaw

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I actually think there is at least a small chance it’s an unsafe conviction.

I base that on an article in Telegraph (electronic form) by a journalist who watched all the trial. They wrote that they only became convinced of Letby’s guilt during the 14 day cross examination when Letby could not explain how the babies died if they were not murderered.

The thought occurred “Its not her responsibility to explain that, the prosecution needs to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt she murdered them”.


Another worrying aspect of the trial was the number of witnesses granted anonymity.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 12:11:09 pm by jackdaw »
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Online RandomGuy99

And there you've hit the nail on the head - if they've gone to management and said "this is damaging my career" and making what appeared to be false/malicious allegations based on circumstantial evidence, I'm not surprised they were told to go away.
Let's not forget it's taken a team of Detectives a long time to gather sufficient evidence to get this mad/evil woman charged and convicted, and they didn't have a hospital to run at the same time. We're all voicing opinions with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, but not a luxury these people had available to them.
From the little I've seen about this tragic case, Letby was quite clever in that she spaced her killings out over a period of time, rather than go on one crazed spree, and the number of deaths that must occur naturally in a PBU would have covered a lot of them.
They didn't go to management saying "this is hurting my career".

They went to management saying "this nurse is harming and killing babies"

Management didn't believe them. Admittedly it is a pretty unbelievable accusation to make, but 7 hospital consultants don't make such accusations without serious evidence.

They felt scared for their careers because management threatened to report them to the GMC if they continued with their accusations.  Basically they were gagged. Shut up or you lose your career.  Personally, I would have raised my concerns directly with the police, but that is easy for me to say. 

She wasn't that clever. She killed two brothers in one week. That week she went out for meals with friends.  How could anyone do that?  Having a patient die has an impact on medical staff having 2 die in one week must be awful.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 12:13:59 pm by RandomGuy99 »

Online RedKettle

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And there you've hit the nail on the head - if they've gone to management and said "this is damaging my career" and making what appeared to be false/malicious allegations based on circumstantial evidence, I'm not surprised they were told to go away.
Let's not forget it's taken a team of Detectives a long time to gather sufficient evidence to get this mad/evil woman charged and convicted, and they didn't have a hospital to run at the same time. We're all voicing opinions with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, which is a wonderful thing, but not a luxury these people had available to them.
From the little I've seen about this tragic case, Letby was quite clever in that she spaced her killings out over a period of time, rather than go on one crazed spree, and the number of deaths that must occur naturally in a PBU would have covered a lot of them.

Spaced out the killings!!  They lost 3 in June alone when the normal number of deaths in a year was 3!

Offline catweazle

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Having a patient die has an impact on medical staff having 2 die in one week must be awful.

This ^^. My ex was an ambulance  paramedic,  and so dealt with death on almost a daily basis,  including some horrible events, like a man who had had both legs severed at the knee in a gang-related machete attack.

However, only one death  haunted her  when she attended a house fire, and carried  a 7 year old girl who has been wearing a nylon nightdress when the fire took hold. The little girl, in absolute  agony, died in her arms before they even got to the ambulance.

Online RandomGuy99

Spaced out the killings!!  They lost 3 in June alone when the normal number of deaths in a year was 3!
Had the hospital reported the deaths correctly the hospital would have been identified as having problems and action would have been taken by NHS regulators. I'm assuming the hospital's management were responsible for reporting the number of deaths to the national NHS system. It appears that the hospital itself was covering up the number of baby deaths it was experiencing. Clearly the hospital thought it could identify the cause of the increased number of deaths itself, but it ignored the consultants who had identified a possible cause of the deaths. Presumably when Lucy was reassigned to an admin role the number of deaths in the department massively reduced. That in itself should have been an indicator that she was in some way (lack of training, deliberate action, etc.) responsible for the deaths.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 03:08:06 pm by RandomGuy99 »

Offline puntingking

I heared Lucy close friends think she is innocent.  If her friends think she is innocent then I reckon her family think she innocent too.

Lucy was working everytime there was an unexplained baby death which equals that it is her that is the killer. I accept that close friends and family may not like to see her in what she is but the fact is the fact.

Offline puntingking

Exactly, apparently she came from a normal loving family background.  You mean to tell me that Hitler wasn't born evil  :unknown: Blaming a person's background is often used as a scapegoat.  You make your own choices in life.

If there is a small proportion of people born evil then it would make it a medical problem and not a criminal problem. 

I don't believe Hitler was born evil. I did hear that he had a troubled childhood.  Let's not sidetrack and make it about Hitler. 

The importance in punishing abusers severely is crucial as I still do believe a abused person is more likely to become the abuser.

I did admit there will always be exemption to the rule and while I don't believe in death penalty I do believe these people should never see the light of day again. 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 05:30:57 pm by puntingking »

Offline mr.bluesky

I heared Lucy close friends think she is innocent.  If her friends think she is innocent then I reckon her family think she innocent too.

Lucy was working everytime there was an unexplained baby death which equals that it is her that is the killer. I accept that close friends and family may not like to see her in what she is but the fact is the fact.

13 times she was working when there were baby deaths, a bit much to be just a coincidence.  Let's be honest she fooled a lot of people for many years . Look how long it took to uncover the truth about the likes of Jimmy Saville, he was even Knighted for fucks sake. You can't always take people at face value.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 05:32:11 pm by mr.bluesky »

Offline puntingking

I wonder if the news of Lucy is going to damage trust in our health care system  :unknown:

I hope not.

Offline mr.bluesky

If there is a small proportion of people born evil then it would make it a medical problem and not a criminal problem. 

I don't believe Hitler was born evil. I did hear that he had a troubled childhood. 


Aah, that must make it acceptable then.
Try telling that to the millions of Jews he had exterminated at concentration camps , Hitler wasn't an evil bloke you've got to take into account he had a troubled childhood " ffs. It must have been down to
a medical condition. History is full of people who were simply born evil. Remember Doctor Harold Shipman who killed all those pensioners ? What would be his excuse, another problem upbringing ?
If its a medical condition how do you spot it and treat it to stop somebody turning into a serial killer  :unknown:
« Last Edit: August 20, 2023, 05:55:54 pm by mr.bluesky »

Online RandomGuy99

I heared Lucy close friends think she is innocent.  If her friends think she is innocent then I reckon her family think she innocent too.

Lucy was working everytime there was an unexplained baby death which equals that it is her that is the killer. I accept that close friends and family may not like to see her in what she is but the fact is the fact.
She has one close friend who says she won't believe Lucy is guilty until Lucy tells her herself.

Online RandomGuy99

If there is a small proportion of people born evil then it would make it a medical problem and not a criminal problem. 

I don't believe Hitler was born evil. I did hear that he had a troubled childhood.  Let's not sidetrack and make it about Hitler. 

The importance in punishing abusers severely is crucial as I still do believe a abused person is more likely to become the abuser.

I did admit there will always be exemption to the rule and while I don't believe in death penalty I do believe these people should never see the light of day again.
Hitler is a Trump type character. He seeks to influence the weak minded and plays to their concerns all so they vote for him and he can feed his ego and continue his lies. He seeks a cult type status and he can do no wrong in his supporters' eyes. Trump is one dangerous person.  The same with Putin. I don't think Hitler was born evil. I think he had a bad childhood, which caused his personality to develop in a certain way. He then found weak minded followers and convinced enough of the public to support him.

Offline mr.bluesky

I think Trump is just delusional who believes he can do no wrong.  :unknown:

Offline Blackpool Rock

Aah, that must make it acceptable then.
Try telling that to the millions of Jews he had exterminated at concentration camps , Hitler wasn't an evil bloke you've got to take into account he had a troubled childhood " ffs. It must have been down to
a medical condition. History is full of people who were simply born evil. Remember Doctor Harold Shipman who killed all those pensioners ? What would be his excuse, another problem upbringing ?
If its a medical condition how do you spot it and treat it to stop somebody turning into a serial killer  :unknown:
Depends how "Evil" is defined, I agree what he did or got others to do were indeed evil acts however i've seen programs which suggest that Hitler himself had some forms of mental illness

As you say, saying someone had a hard childhood in itself doesn't automatically lead to them doing bad things. plenty of people had / have hard childhoods but go on to be decent people however they are more likely to do bad things to others than someone who had a good upbringing.

In truth I think it's always a varying degree of Nature Vs Nurture and you do see examples where 3 kids are all brought up the same, 2 do well in life and the 3rd is a total piece of scum yet had the same opportunities as the other 2.

I remember seeing a WW2 program about psychiatrists who studied the Nazi leaders after the end of the war, one of them Douglas Kelley was shocked that in his assessment he had to conclude that the likes of Hitlers henchmen weren't actually mad or evil but ordinary sane people who had ended up doing despicable things to further their own ends
Kelley ended up committing suicide as a result according to his family as he simply couldn't come to terms with how a normal person could sink as low to do the things that they had done
I've always said that the nice societal norms we enjoy in the good times are merely a thin veneer, scratch it and there is something nasty waiting just under the surface  :thumbsdown:

From the link -
The psychiatrist had developed his own pet project — a search for psychological traits common to the prisoners that would allow Kelley to describe a “Nazi personality.” Kelley found something much different from what he had hoped, although he built an extremely close relationship with Göring. Kelley’s inability to identify the expected qualities of a Nazi mind rattled him, as did Göring’s suicide in October 1946. By that time, Kelley had changed his professional focus from psychiatry to criminology, and he began a long spiral downward through alcoholism, marital strife, workaholism, and fierce inner rage. He committed suicide on New Year’s Day 1958 by swallowing cyanide, the same poison Göring had used to end his life.

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Offline jackdaw

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I wonder if the news of Lucy is going to damage trust in our health care system  :unknown:

I hope not.

Blimey, anybody not worried about state of NHS long before this case must be a wondrous optimist.
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Offline puntingking

Aah, that must make it acceptable then.
Try telling that to the millions of Jews he had exterminated at concentration camps , Hitler wasn't an evil bloke you've got to take into account he had a troubled childhood " ffs. It must have been down to
a medical condition. History is full of people who were simply born evil. Remember Doctor Harold Shipman who killed all those pensioners ? What would be his excuse, another problem upbringing ?
If its a medical condition how do you spot it and treat it to stop somebody turning into a serial killer  :unknown:

I don't think it's a medical condition.

My comment was - IF YOU WERE BORN EVIL THEN IT WOULD BE MEDICAL and as I don't believe anyone is born evil than I don't believe its medical. 

It's peoples bad and violent upbringing that often can lead to this serial killer behaviour at the extremes.


The only way to stop more abuse is to treat those that abused with life sentences. 
I also include animals as thar often leads to abusing humans.
So if someone abused an animal then life sentences for them too.


Offline puntingking

Blimey, anybody not worried about state of NHS long before this case must be a wondrous optimist.

People was worried about the state of our health care systems for other reasons.

 

I pretty much sure new mothers will be nervous while in hospital.  If I had my baby in hospital right now I'd be nervous. 

Remember London terrorist attack where extremist set bombs on the tfl. People was scared to go into London.


Offline mills_and_bhuna

Hitler is a Trump type character. He seeks to influence the weak minded and plays to their concerns all so they vote for him and he can feed his ego and continue his lies. He seeks a cult type status and he can do no wrong in his supporters' eyes. Trump is one dangerous person.  The same with Putin. I don't think Hitler was born evil. I think he had a bad childhood, which caused his personality to develop in a certain way. He then found weak minded followers and convinced enough of the public to support him.
To call this comment rubbish would be a compliment.
Trump, Hitler and Putin bad.
Clinton, Biden and Churchill good.
You make the rest of Ukraine cult on there sound like History professors.

Online RandomGuy99

According to the Sunday Times one of the consultants actually said "you are harbouring a murderer" in one of the meetings with the hospital's management. Lucy was moved from night shift to day shift and the deaths started occurring during the day shift.

The response from the hospital was to offer to sponsor her to get a Masters and get a placement at Alder Hey Childrens hospital in Liverpool.

It seems that some of Lucy's actions may have been ways of getting attention from the married doctor she fancied and may have been having an affair with.

Offline willie loman

Hitler is a Trump type character. He seeks to influence the weak minded and plays to their concerns all so they vote for him and he can feed his ego and continue his lies. He seeks a cult type status and he can do no wrong in his supporters' eyes. Trump is one dangerous person.  The same with Putin. I don't think Hitler was born evil. I think he had a bad childhood, which caused his personality to develop in a certain way. He then found weak minded followers and convinced enough of the public to support him.

i think you mistyped your first sentence, but  the historical figure trump resembles is mussolini.

Offline DastardlyDick

According to the Sunday Times one of the consultants actually said "you are harbouring a murderer" in one of the meetings with the hospital's management. Lucy was moved from night shift to day shift and the deaths started occurring during the day shift.

The response from the hospital was to offer to sponsor her to get a Masters and get a placement at Alder Hey Childrens hospital in Liverpool.

It seems that some of Lucy's actions may have been ways of getting attention from the married doctor she fancied and may have been having an affair with.
Apparently, she was offered this move to another hospital and some Consultants forced to apologize as part of a grievance process, which may go some way to explaining why these Consultants were not believed when they tried to blow the whistle on her murderous activities.
What surprises me is that foul play was not suspected when post mortems were conducted, or weren't they?

Offline Blackpool Rock

Just pulled my post as it appears we are drifting into politics  :unknown:

Offline PepeMAGA

There's also a suggestion that she may have been having an affair with a married doctor who gave evidence behind a screen.

BBC News - What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court
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Interesting, maybe she was jealous of healthy babies?

Online RandomGuy99

Apparently, she was offered this move to another hospital and some Consultants forced to apologize as part of a grievance process, which may go some way to explaining why these Consultants were not believed when they tried to blow the whistle on her murderous activities.
What surprises me is that foul play was not suspected when post mortems were conducted, or weren't they?
The concerns were raised by the consultants and it was these accusations that caused Lucy to raise a formal grievance which led to the grievance process and the consultants were then forced into signing an apology letter under threat that they would be reported to the GMC if they didnt.

The post mortems were performed as they know what caused the injuries and death of each baby.

Offline PepeMAGA

To call this comment rubbish would be a compliment.
Trump, Hitler and Putin bad.
Clinton, Biden and Churchill good.
You make the rest of Ukraine cult on there sound like History professors.
+1
Any suggestion that Hitler is like Trump or even Putin is ridiculous.

Offline Iloveoral

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Stick the political comments in off topic please
Let’s leave it there thanks :drinks:

Offline billybob69


Hospital Consultants are not above bullying or making malicious allegations to get rid of someone they don't like, for whatever reason - maybe these 7 had "form" for that?
I've worked in the Public Sector, and the level of  back stabbing and general nastiness that goes on is huge.

Having also worked in the NHS, I also suspect that is part why the Consultants weren't taken seriously. A true 'boy that cried Wolf' type scenerio.

In the NHS and there is always lots of people who are constantly moaning about this, that and the other. And Consultants are the kings of moaning. They like to moan A LOT. They particularly like to bitch about other people (whilst turning a blind eye to those poor performing in their own profession). It is frequent spitting the dummy out with many of them. So Senior Managers spend a lot of time 'filtering' information that comes from Consultants.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 07:26:24 am by billybob69 »

Offline catweazle

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Once again, we have a convicted murderer who refuses to return to court for sentencing and victim impact statements.   The sooner the new law is enacted, the better.

Offline Blackpool Rock

Just been on the news that recommendations made 20 years ago after Harold Shipman regarding independent investigation of these sort of deaths have only just been implemented  :dash:
If they had been in place some of these murders should have been stopped as the previous ones would have flagged there was something suspicious about them and a pattern etc

Must make it even harder for the grieving families  :thumbsdown:

Offline jaydefo24

What no one mentions: what’s her motive? Why would she do this,?

Online RandomGuy99

What no one mentions: what’s her motive? Why would she do this,?
She hasn't revealed that yet.

Seems to be attention seeking and maybe she got off on seeing the damage she had done to families as she looked at families facebook accounts

Online Squire Haggard

What no one mentions: what’s her motive? Why would she do this,?

IMO, the clues are in her scribblings, ''I'll never marry and have children'' is one of them. I think that she resented her reflection in the mirror, and wanted to spread her misery around.

Offline puntingking

What time her sentencing today?

I would like to watch it live (if possible)

Offline DastardlyDick

What no one mentions: what’s her motive? Why would she do this,?
My personal opinion is that she's seriously mentally ill - I just cannot think that someone is going to get up and think "I'm going to kill someone today"!

Online RandomGuy99

What time her sentencing today?

I would like to watch it live (if possible)
Victim statements are being read this morning.

Sentencing is this afternoon.

Lucy Letby has declined to be present in the court.  Apparently she has been brought to the court building but is staying in the cells.

Further developments from the case:

From the BBC:

"In the last few moments, NHS England has confirmed the woman who was director of nursing at the Countess of Chester Hospital when Lucy Letby carried out her crimes has been suspended.

Alison Kelly had been accused of failing to act when doctors raised concerns. Letby’s trial heard how warnings about the nurse’s behaviour were ignored by Alison Kelly and other senior managers.

She is currently director of nursing at Northern Care Alliance​.

An NHS England spokesperson confirmed: "In light of information that has emerged during the trial of Lucy Letby, and the announcement of the independent inquiry, the Northern Care Alliance has suspended Alison Kelly.” "

Online Squire Haggard

Judge has gone for a break/dump. He'll be back at 12.30pm to sentence her.

Its a pity that they cant play the victim statements and sentencing on a loop for 12 hours at high volume outside her cell door.  :)
 

Offline DastardlyDick

Once again, we have a convicted murderer who refuses to return to court for sentencing and victim impact statements.   The sooner the new law is enacted, the better.
I don't see the point of passing a Law to compel a convicted person (regardless of the crime comitted) to be present for sentencing. All that's going to happen is that they'll kick off and resist requiring Police or Prison Officers to risk injury forcing them into the dock. It would also be very unpleasant for Victims and/or their families to witness, which I'm sure they don't need after the trauma they've already been through.
Possibly confine them to a cell where the proceedings (especially the Impact Statements) can be relayed through a speaker system with no ear plugs allowed?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 01:33:14 pm by DastardlyDick »

Online RandomGuy99

I don't see the point of passing a Law to compel a convicted person (regardless of the crime comitted) to be present for sentencing. All that's going to happen is that they'll kick off and resist requiring Police or Prison Officers to risk injury forcing them into the dock. It would also be very unpleasant for Victims and/or their families to witness, which I'm sure they don't need after the trauma they've already been through.
Possibly confine them to a cell where the proceedings (especially the Impact Statements) can be relayed through a speaker system with no ear plugs allowed?
I think it's only right that they sit there and see and hear the damage they have done to people. Some criminals may actually get a kick out of it.  She wouldn't kick off about it.  It would be something she could replay in her mind for the rest of her life.

Sadly, I think she might commit suicide in prison.

The whole situation got out of control and she should have been stopped much much earlier. Himdsight is a wonderful thing and I guess no medical professional expects other medical professionals to be actively trying to harm patients.  This will need to feed into training courses, so the next generation is better positioned. Perhaps there needs to be more checking done as part of the application process for doctors and nurses?

Online scutty brown

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Offline myothernameis

Sadly, I think she might commit suicide in prison.

The question now is, what jail do they send her to, and more likely she will be kept apart from other prisoners.  So the question, of what prison to send her to, which one provides her with the most protection from other prisoners

In real terms, she should be put into the open population, and she has to defend for her self.

Offline DastardlyDick

she got a whole life tariff

Good, but not surprising. She deserves nothing less.

Offline Jonestown

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What surprises me is that foul play was not suspected when post mortems were conducted, or weren't they?

No, I understood that they were recorded as natural deaths at the time, hence there is no forensic evidence against her.

Offline DastardlyDick

The question now is, what jail do they send her to, and more likely she will be kept apart from other prisoners.  So the question, of what prison to send her to, which one provides her with the most protection from other prisoners

In real terms, she should be put into the open population, and she has to defend for her self.


Well there aren't many women's prisons (15) - the nearest is probably Styal, which is a "Closed Category" jail.
She'll undoubtedly be in the segregation wing for her own safety. Prisoners who commit crimes against children are the absolute scum of the earth to other inmates, and there is a lot of truth in the saying that "the female is deadlier than the male".
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 02:16:37 pm by DastardlyDick »

Offline jackdaw

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One of her old nursing supervisors has been suspended from her new senior nursing post “in light of evidence emerging in the trial”.

Most admit as I get older and grouchier do wish more senior managers were held accountable when the soft brown stuff impacts the rapidly revolving machine.

Bear in mind several managers at her hospital get paid more than Prime Minister..and if they aren’t crucial in maintaining medical standards I don’t see what justifies that sort of pay.
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Offline Jonestown

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she got a whole life tariff

She’ll spend it on a secure ward I’d imagine rather than in a jail cell.

Online RandomGuy99

The question now is, what jail do they send her to, and more likely she will be kept apart from other prisoners.  So the question, of what prison to send her to, which one provides her with the most protection from other prisoners

In real terms, she should be put into the open population, and she has to defend for her self.
I don't think putting in the open population is the right thing. She clearly has a mental health condition and needs to be put in a prison that meets her needs.

Online daviemac

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The question now is, what jail do they send her to, and more likely she will be kept apart from other prisoners.  So the question, of what prison to send her to, which one provides her with the most protection from other prisoners

In real terms, she should be put into the open population, and she has to defend for her self.
Rumour has it Low Newton in Co, Durham is a possibility. It's a Closed prison for female adults and young offenders.

Online scutty brown

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Rumour has it Low Newton in Co, Durham is a possibility. It's a Closed prison for female adults and young offenders.

You may be right, but it wouldn't surprise me if at least initially she was held in Rampton.
She may not be a psychiatric case, but the enhanced security there would make it easier to keep her safe from the other inmates.
As an example, Ashworth Hospital holds a small number of non-medical high-secure prisoners for the same reason. No, I won't name them

Offline mr.bluesky

I think it's only right that they sit there and see and hear the damage they have done to people. Some criminals may actually get a kick out of it.  She wouldn't kick off about it.  It would be something she could replay in her mind for the rest of her life.

Sadly, I think she might commit suicide in prison.



I can't imagine there will be many who will shed a tear
for her if she does. Replace the word "sadly " with "hopefully"
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 03:34:53 pm by mr.bluesky »

Offline PumpDump

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I wonder if she had private lawyers or paid for by the state? I can tell you that a state defence is not fit for purpose, those bastards do the minimal amount of work and will not even pick up the phone when you call.
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