Holocaust Memorial day

[timsussex]

today
and a reason to post a Clive James poem written when he saw a pile of childrens shoes at a Holocaust exhibition

I live in the shadow of a hill
A hill of little shoes
I love but I shiver with a chill
A chill I never lose
I live, I love, but where are they?
Where are their lives, their loves? All blown away
And every little shoe is a foot that never grew
Another day

If you could find a pair and put them on the floor
Make a mark in the air like the marks beside your door
When you were growing
You’d see how tall they were

And the buckles and the laces they could do up on their own
Or almost could
With their tongue-tips barely showing
Tell you how small they were

And then you’d think of little faces looking fearfully alone
And how they stood
In their bare feet being tall for the last time
Just to be good
And that was all they were

They were like you in the same year but you grew up
They were barely even here before they suddenly weren’t there
And while you got dressed for bed they did the same but they were led
Into another room instead
And they were all blown away into thin air

​I live in the shadow of a hill
A hill of little shoes
I love but I shiver with a chill
A chill I never lose
And I caught that cold when I was chosen to grow old
In the shadow of a hill of little shoes

[mikecee]

How do you follow that?

[Stevelondon]

I think like most folk.

The sheer incomprehensible evil behind it all.
Words have always failed me when it comes to the holocaust.

Pretty much like when you see someone on tv or internet who denies it all. It’s something made up.

I’d put them in striped pyjamas and……..

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I note that Schindlers list has been on TV a few times lately, one of the best films ever made!

Any yet genocide still happens:((

[timsussex]

How do you follow that?

you can't - just make sure that everyone (esp the youth of today) remembers

[catweazle]

I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau last year. A truly horrifying and deeply disturbing  place.  The descriptions  given by the guide  so matter-of-factly were dreadful. The casual sadism and totally uncaring treatment of millions was beyond comprehension.

[Ghost89]

A deeply upsetting moment in world history. They don’t cover it enough in school. I’ve seen footage time and time again in various documentaries about WW2 and it never fails to upset me.

[Thephoenix]

Many and sharp the num'rous ills

   Inwoven with our frame!

More pointed still we make ourselves

   Regret, remorse, and shame!

And man whose heav'n-erected face

   The smiles of love adorn, --

Man's inhumanity to man

   Makes countless thousands mourn!

R. Burns 1784

[mr.bluesky]

Just finished reading the book SAS rogue heroes ( which was recently made into a TV series on BBC1) after they had finished in North Africa they were deployed in Italy then part of the forward advanced party that entered Germany towards the end of the war. In one particular chapter it describes how they entered Belsen concentration camp and the horror they saw first hand. Scenes that would probably mentality scar them for life.

[DastardlyDick]

Yes, I've seen the footage of the British Army having to bulldoze piles of corpses into mass graves at Bergen - Belsen. A truly macabre sight, and use flame throwers to incinerate the huts, all to try and prevent the spread of typhus etc.
I've also been to Auschwitz - the memory of which will stay with me for life - how any sane, normal person can sit down and actually come up with the various unspeakable methods used there and In other places is beyond me.

[MrBamboo]

Just finished reading the book SAS rogue heroes ( which was recently made into a TV series on BBC1) after they had finished in North Africa they were deployed in Italy then part of the forward advanced party that entered Germany towards the end of the war. In one particular chapter it describes how they entered Belsen concentration camp and the horror they saw first hand. Scenes that would probably mentality scar them for life.

The Kindly Ones by Jonathan Littel is a very good book, a difficult read in places but well worth it.

[mr.bluesky]

Yes, I've seen the footage of the British Army having to bulldoze piles of corpses into mass graves at Bergen - Belsen. A truly macabre sight, and use flame throwers to incinerate the huts, all to try and prevent the spread of typhus etc.
I've also been to Auschwitz - the memory of which will stay with me for life - how any sane, normal person can sit down and actually come up with the various unspeakable methods used there and In other places is beyond me.

I remember watching "The World at War" documentary series and one particular episode about this. Images that stay in your mind forever. Even the theme tune  to that program is haunting. What a ground breaking documentary series this was, never been anything like it since that shows the horror of war

[Blackpool Rock]

Yes, I've seen the footage of the British Army having to bulldoze piles of corpses into mass graves at Bergen - Belsen. A truly macabre sight, and use flame throwers to incinerate the huts, all to try and prevent the spread of typhus etc.
I've also been to Auschwitz - the memory of which will stay with me for life - how any sane, normal person can sit down and actually come up with the various unspeakable methods used there and In other places is beyond me.

I think most of us have seen that type of footage and it's horrific, for the soldiers who liberated these camps after having been shot at and seeing the other horrors of war this must still have been truly shocking.

I've seen various documentaries over the years and apparently they moved to the gas chambers as it was effectively the "most acceptable method" for those having to actually do the killing.
Prior to that they had driven people around in the back of a sealed van where the exhaust gas entered the back and killed people but that wasn't killing people quick enough.
They had also had soldiers kill people by firing squad but they objected to this as even they recognised it was fundamentally wrong.

Far harder to kill someone face to face on a daily basis compared to locking people in a room where you can't actually see them any more and drop a couple of gas cylinders in, the fact you can't see them make it far less personal

Either way it's barbaric but that's the way the mindset and "Group think" went over a period of a couple of decades, we've seen other genocides happen around the world since then so for all the cries of this mustn't happen again it does if the right or wrong circumstances allow it to fester and grow 

I've also seen footage of Himmler visiting a concentration camp with the modern day commentator saying how even he appeared to find it hard to stomach, he may have helped design it but seeing it 1st hand is another thing altogether

Holocaust memorial day is still important and relevant so that we don't forget how easily these things can happen when evil minds and forces are allowed to go unchallenged by the majority
I've said it before but society is just a thin veneer, scratch it and below the surface there are a whole load of problems
   

[DastardlyDick]

I think most of us have seen that type of footage and it's horrific, for the soldiers who liberated these camps after having been shot at and seeing the other horrors of war this must still have been truly shocking.

I've seen various documentaries over the years and apparently they moved to the gas chambers as it was effectively the "most acceptable method" for those having to actually do the killing.
Prior to that they had driven people around in the back of a sealed van where the exhaust gas entered the back and killed people but that wasn't killing people quick enough.
They had also had soldiers kill people by firing squad but they objected to this as even they recognised it was fundamentally wrong.

Far harder to kill someone face to face on a daily basis compared to locking people in a room where you can't actually see them any more and drop a couple of gas cylinders in, the fact you can't see them make it far less personal

Either way it's barbaric but that's the way the mindset and "Group think" went over a period of a couple of decades, we've seen other genocides happen around the world since then so for all the cries of this mustn't happen again it does if the right or wrong circumstances allow it to fester and grow 

I've also seen footage of Himmler visiting a concentration camp with the modern day commentator saying how even he appeared to find it hard to stomach, he may have helped design it but seeing it 1st hand is another thing altogether

Holocaust memorial day is still important and relevant so that we don't forget how easily these things can happen when evil minds and forces are allowed to go unchallenged by the majority
I've said it before but society is just a thin veneer, scratch it and below the surface there are a whole load of problems
   

Apparently, the killing by Carbon Monoxide came about accidentally when a high up member of the AS almost killed himself by driving home drunk and falling asleep in his car with the engine running.
Himmler nearly passed out when he visited an "execution" site when they were still shooting people and some brain matter splashed on his uniform. The shooting was stopped after even the Nazis realised it was having psychological effects on those doing it, a form of PTSD.

[sir wanksalot]

My father was in Bergen Belsen. My mother's first husband was in Auschwitz and several more.

One thing that has struck me is how we can sometimes judge people by the actions they take during wartime. What is considered immoral and wrong now takes on a completely new meaning when you are faced with  doing something you vehemently disagree with compared to saving the life of your family.

A story was told to me of a villager who was questioned by the Germans. The Germans knew that there was a Jew hiding in the village and the villager who was questioned also knew the location of the Jew, however, he refused to disclose the location.

The Germans shot him and his family.

Other then the Nazi atrocities, there were no absolutes in those days.

[Liverpool]

The Kindly Ones by Jonathan Littell is a very good book, a difficult read in places but well worth it.

I second this. A great book that just deals (fictionalised, but based on fact) with just the matter-of-factness of evil on an industrial scale.

(Jonathan's dad, Robert, is a far better author. His cold war fiction is excellent)

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I think that we can suppose that Paul Tibbets the commander of the enola Gay who dropped the Hiroshima bomb albeit his actions caused the deaths of some 80,000 rightaway, then some further thousands never expressed any regret as the cause for that was just!

[myothernameis]

I think that we can suppose that Paul Tibbets the commander of the enola Gay who dropped the Hiroshima bomb albeit his actions caused the deaths of some 80,000 rightaway, then some further thousands never expressed any regret as the cause for that was just!

OMD - Enlola Gay, love this song, and tells us what went on

External Link/Members Only

[sir wanksalot]

I think that we can suppose that Paul Tibbets the commander of the enola Gay who dropped the Hiroshima bomb albeit his actions caused the deaths of some 80,000 rightaway, then some further thousands never expressed any regret as the cause for that was just!

It's debatable that the Hiroshima bomb could be considered to be part of what is termed "the Holocaust". Maybe if you're Japanese perhaps. That could be another debate entirely.

[David1970]

It's debatable that the Hiroshima bomb could be considered to be part of what is termed "the Holocaust". Maybe if you're Japanese perhaps. That could be another debate entirely.

The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was totally justified, it saved many lives, not just allied and Japanese military lives but Japanese civilians. On top of this, the bombs saved Chinese civilians, allied prisoners, so called comfort women ( organised mass rape) and many others under the brutal Japanese control, from more mass murder and ill treatment by the Japanese.

External Link/Members Only

To try and claim the dropping of the 2 bombs was part of the Holocaust, is very disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust.

[mr.bluesky]

It's debatable that the Hiroshima bomb could be considered to be part of what is termed "the Holocaust". Maybe if you're Japanese perhaps. That could be another debate entirely.

Yeah , an entirely different subject.  As David1970 points out although a terrible weapon to have to use it did make Japan surrender and bring an early end to the war. Who knows how long they would continue to fight for if the atomic bombs had not been used. The Japanese were  proud people and would have continued to fight to the last man.

[petermisc]

Yeah , an entirely different subject.  As David1970 points out although a terrible weapon to have to use it did make Japan surrender and bring an early end to the war. Who knows how long they would continue to fight for if the atomic bombs had not been used. The Japanese were  proud people and would have continued to fight to the last man.

If we had developed the atomic bomb earlier, would the same justification have been used to drop it on Germany?

[timsussex]

The dropping of the bombs is not in any way similar to the Holocaust but the Japanese atrocities certainly were - 19 million civilians died in China alone

However the US were always going to drop both A bombs - They were of entirely different construction and having spent millions developing them they wanted to use them for real. FDR gave permission for both at the beginning - he didnt specifically approve the second one. They wanted to try them both out and had set aside suitable test cities which they had refrained from heavy bombing and sent special squads in after the surrender to compare the destruction.

The Japanese knew that their age old enemies the Chinese were thrashing them in China and would soon have Russian support to invade Japan and if they had then Japan would still be a province of China today. Just as the Germans wanted to surrender to the Americans rather than the Russians the Japanese needed to surrender to USA. 

Having said that my father worked with an ex Jap POW and he would have happily A bombed every single square inch of Japan. Similarly Admiral Halsey, after Pearl Harbour proclaimed that after the war the only place that Japanese would be spoken would be in Hell

[petermisc]

There have been a couple of very educational documentaries about the Holocaust recently.

The important thing to remember is that it didn't come out of blue sky.  It was the end result of a decade or more of propaganda that steadily and remorselessly vilified and dehumanised the Jews, to the point where the majority of the population were happy to go along with their extermination.  And that propaganda wasn't limited to just Germany and the Nazis.

[timsussex]

It is easily forgotten that it wasnt just Jews that were targeted and the Catholic church stayed silent

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

External Link/Members Only

and he really should have added another few verses about the Gays, the "Mentally Deficient" and all the other "subhumans" - according to Nazi ideology

[sir wanksalot]

The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was totally justified, it saved many lives, not just allied and Japanese military lives but Japanese civilians. On top of this, the bombs saved Chinese civilians, allied prisoners, so called comfort women ( organised mass rape) and many others under the brutal Japanese control, from more mass murder and ill treatment by the Japanese.

External Link/Members Only

To try and claim the dropping of the 2 bombs was part of the Holocaust, is very disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust.

Guys. I wasn't claiming Hiroshima was part of the Holocaust. Two other members had mentioned Hiroshima which, in my mind, isn't even relevant to this thread.

I was over politely trying to correct them but apologies if I gave the wrong impression.

[chrishornx]

My father was in Bergen Belsen. My mother's first husband was in Auschwitz and several more.

One thing that has struck me is how we can sometimes judge people by the actions they take during wartime. What is considered immoral and wrong now takes on a completely new meaning when you are faced with  doing something you vehemently disagree with compared to saving the life of your family.

A story was told to me of a villager who was questioned by the Germans. The Germans knew that there was a Jew hiding in the village and the villager who was questioned also knew the location of the Jew, however, he refused to disclose the location.

The Germans shot him and his family.

Other then the Nazi atrocities, there were no absolutes in those days.

if visiting one of those two place which would you suggest, Auschwitz or Belsen?

[sir wanksalot]

if visiting one of those two place which would you suggest, Auschwitz or Belsen?

Auschwitz without a doubt.

It's more practical to see as it's a popular day trip from Krakow.

Auschwitz is actually a "2 site camp". The other site is called Birkenau. Auschwitz has many of the exhibits that will turn your blood cold whilst Birkenau will floor you with the sheer scale of the place.

[chrishornx]

cheers Sir

[Watts.E.Dunn]

One of my young relatives went to Auschwiz on a school trip, she said that on the way home hardely anyone spoke to anyone else, it's as if they had been very traumatised by what they had exeperenced..

[catweazle]

Auschwitz without a doubt.

It's more practical to see as it's a popular day trip from Krakow.

Auschwitz is actually a "2 site camp". The other site is called Birkenau. Auschwitz has many of the exhibits that will turn your blood cold whilst Birkenau will floor you with the sheer scale of the place.

If you go to Auschwitz-Birkenau ( and you should) do take a full day trip. Some agencies offer a half day visit which isn't enough time.

As said,  the exhibitions in the Auschwitz  camp will chill your blood, while Birkenau is beyond imagination in its scale.

[lostandfound]

The dropping of the 2 atomic bombs was totally justified, it saved many lives, not just allied and Japanese military lives but Japanese civilians. On top of this, the bombs saved Chinese civilians, allied prisoners, so called comfort women ( organised mass rape) and many others under the brutal Japanese control, from more mass murder and ill treatment by the Japanese.

External Link/Members Only

To try and claim the dropping of the 2 bombs was part of the Holocaust, is very disrespectful to the victims of the Holocaust.

There is a little circularity ...

Two refugee German Jews who found refuge at Birmingham university came up with the idea of the atomic bomb - Otto Frisch and Rudolph Peierls.

We Brits did not have the resources to follow through so we suggested to the Americans that they take it on.

Frisch and Peierls made a fundamental error in their calculations - a hundred times more nuclear material was needed for a bomb, and it was almost impossible to make any of it with the tech available at the time. But those Yanks - there was no stopping them once they set their minds to it.

And all made possible by that other German Jew, Einstein.

[timsussex]

yes if Hitler hadnt killed/driven out the Jewish scientists then he may well have had an A Bomb. Couple that with the V2 and he would have been undefeatable. He certainly wouldn't have hesitated in using it

Almost makes you believe in a God 

[sir wanksalot]

yes if Hitler hadnt killed/driven out the Jewish scientists then he may well have had an A Bomb. Couple that with the V2 and he would have been undefeatable. He certainly wouldn't have hesitated in using it

Almost makes you believe in a God 

It's all hypotheticals but I think if he would have attacked Britain earlier and not attacked the Soviet Union at all then we'd all be speaking German. I don't think he'd have needed an A Bomb

[timsussex]

It's all hypotheticals but I think if he would have attacked Britain earlier and not attacked the Soviet Union at all then we'd all be speaking German. I don't think he'd have needed an A Bomb

Hitler was vehemently anti- communist as was Churchill and Hitler was convinced that he could come to an accomodation with Churchill (I didnt say he was rational!) Also a conquered Russia would provide raw materials (inc labour and soldiers) and "room for expansion" that the UK couldn't. Most of the UKs raw materials came from the Commonwealth who would almost certainly not surrender even if the UK did. The Hitler/Stalin pact included Russian supply of some of those materials but Hitler wanted more - and very nearly got them all 

Its a sobering thought that probably 70% of the worlds atomic research in the 1930s was going on in Germany They were so far ahead of everybody else - until they lost their Jewish scientists.

German atomic research was still going on ( if not for Kirk Douglas in The Heroes of Telemark we would have been in trouble ) although Heavy water is more for reactors than bombs

External Link/Members Only

[Watts.E.Dunn]

OK so if Hitler managed to invade the UK and might have had a bomb, it makes me wonder what the Yanks might have done to defend olde england if they could deliver them to Germany?..

[timsussex]

OK so if Hitler managed to invade the UK and might have had a bomb, it makes me wonder what the Yanks might have done to defend olde england if they could deliver them to Germany?..

Ok lets play what if
 Hitler has a bomb - and no-ne else has - and no conscious. He wipes out London Manchester Birmingham Moscow and a couple of other Russian cities and the UK and Russian governments at the same time. He rules all of Europe and Asia and has virtually unlimited resources. He then stays quiet for a year and develops a multi stage V2 and threaten NY Washington etc What does the US do ? If you are President of USA without an effective weapon against the Nazis - no plane capable of bombing Germany from USA and Hitler threatens to A bomb USA and leave NY etc glowing ruins like London?

 How do you fight a maniac with the ultimate weapon and the ability to drop it anywhere ? Especially given their large population with German ancestry? and thats even without a Japanese agreement .
Forget Pearl Harbour just give the Japs 3 nukes to drop on San Diego, LA and San Francisco

It really doesnt bear thinking about because I only see one outcome

[sir wanksalot]

OK so if Hitler managed to invade the UK and might have had a bomb, it makes me wonder what the Yanks might have done to defend olde england if they could deliver them to Germany?..

The Yanks were very flaky on defending England prior to Pearl Harbour. Up until that time it wasn't "their war".

[WASA38]

The Yanks were very flaky on defending England prior to Pearl Harbour. Up until that time it wasn't "their war".

Even then they didn't declare war on Germany. It was Adolf who did us a great favour by declaring war on them. They otherwise might well have still confined their response to Japan. You might be tempted to ask, with friends like that, who needs enemies ?

[mr.bluesky]

The Yanks were very flaky on defending England prior to Pearl Harbour. Up until that time it wasn't "their war".

Just like the First Word War, America didn't enter it until 1917 and only because the high toll on American Merchant ships sunk by the Germans. Until the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941 the Americans were reluctant get involved in another European conflict

[petermisc]

It's all hypotheticals but I think if he would have attacked Britain earlier and not attacked the Soviet Union at all then we'd all be speaking German. I don't think he'd have needed an A Bomb

He couldn't have attacked Britain until he had consolidated his hold on France.  And he was always going to attack the Soviet Union, as he needed the room to expand the German homeland.  However, his big mistake was to stop the bombing of the RAF airfields, just when the RAF was a wafer from being overwhelmed.  If he hadn't done that, then we would all be speaking German.  By turning to bombing of London and other cities, he gave the RAF the opportunity to regroup. 

But then history turns on so many slim margins.  If America hadn't had a president who was prepared to support Britain and bend the rules in order to provide us with arms, contrary popular opinion in the USA, then we would likely be speaking German.  If Halifax hadn't stood aside to allow Churchill to become PM, etc.
 

[Blackpool Rock]

He couldn't have attacked Britain until he had consolidated his hold on France.  And he was always going to attack the Soviet Union, as he needed the room to expand the German homeland.  However, his big mistake was to stop the bombing of the RAF airfields, just when the RAF was a wafer from being overwhelmed.  If he hadn't done that, then we would all be speaking German.  By turning to bombing of London and other cities, he gave the RAF the opportunity to regroup. 

But then history turns on so many slim margins.  If America hadn't had a president who was prepared to support Britain and bend the rules in order to provide us with arms, contrary popular opinion in the USA, then we would likely be speaking German.  If Halifax hadn't stood aside to allow Churchill to become PM, etc.

I'm not disagreeing that it was a big mistake however as you say so many decisions and fine margins.

From what i've seen on TV over the last decade it strikes me that Hitler should have actually won the war given his position of strength at the start and the fact that we were so far behind and needed to catch up.
Hitler seemed to constantly play a good hand badly and contradicted his Generals, he also loved the big grand ideas however they had so many big projects on the go which were all competing for the same resources that hardly any of them actually got finished, if they had had a more focussed strategy then we'd have been fucked
He also constantly meddled and fucked things up such as designs for new aircraft, the Stuka dive bomber had been very successful but Hitler then had an obsession that every aircraft should be a dive bomber so designs were changed half way through the project, end result the new aircraft wasn't much good for the intended purpose and also not much good as a dive bomber, TFFT 

[mr.bluesky]

He couldn't have attacked Britain until he had consolidated his hold on France.  And he was always going to attack the Soviet Union, as he needed the room to expand the German homeland.  However, his big mistake was to stop the bombing of the RAF airfields, just when the RAF was a wafer from being overwhelmed.  If he hadn't done that, then we would all be speaking German.  By turning to bombing of London and other cities, he gave the RAF the opportunity to regroup. 

But then history turns on so many slim margins.  If America hadn't had a president who was prepared to support Britain and bend the rules in order to provide us with arms, contrary popular opinion in the USA, then we would likely be speaking German.  If Halifax hadn't stood aside to allow Churchill to become PM, etc.

He couldn't attack Britain until he had control of the air. That's why the battle of Britain was such a vital victory and the development of Radar was crucial to the RAF as they had more warning of when the German Luftwaffe was going to attack

[mr.bluesky]

I'm not disagreeing that it was a big mistake however as you say so many decisions and fine margins.

From what i've seen on TV over the last decade it strikes me that Hitler should have actually won the war given his position of strength at the start and the fact that we were so far behind and needed to catch up.
Hitler seemed to constantly play a good hand badly and contradicted his Generals, he also loved the big grand ideas however they had so many big projects on the go which were all competing for the same resources that hardly any of them actually got finished, if they had had a more focussed strategy then we'd have been fucked
He also constantly meddled and fucked things up such as designs for new aircraft, the Stuka dive bomber had been very successful but Hitler then had an obsession that every aircraft should be a dive bomber so designs were changed half way through the project, end result the new aircraft wasn't much good for the intended purpose and also not much good as a dive bomber, TFFT 

The problem for Hitler was he was fighting a war on too many fronts,  Fighting on the Russian front in winter took a heavy toll on his army. The Russians were used to fighting in the cold.

[Blackpool Rock]

The problem for Hitler was he was fighting a war on too many fronts,  Fighting on the Russian front in winter took a heavy toll on his army. The Russians were used to fighting in the cold.

Exactly but he should have finished us off 1st before turning on Russia, he even wrote about only fighting on 1 front in Mein Kampf then ignored his own advice 

[petermisc]

He couldn't attack Britain until he had control of the air. That's why the battle of Britain was such a vital victory

Agreed.  And as I noted previously, we only won the Battle of Britain because at the critical moment Hitler decided to redirect the Luftwaffe's fire away from the RAF airfields onto the cities.

[Shearer1955]

The sadness is that as time goes by the horrors of the past disappear from any conscious memory and we now have holocaust deniers who are becoming more prevalent ... that is really frightening ... freedom of speech comes at a price!!

[petermisc]

The problem for Hitler was he was fighting a war on too many fronts,  Fighting on the Russian front in winter took a heavy toll on his army. The Russians were used to fighting in the cold.

He only took on the Russians once he had given up on invading Britain, so he was only fighting on one front.  At that time, with America sitting on its hands, Britain was pretty much a busted flush, little more than a thorn in the side with no realistic chance of breaching his Atlantic wall.  It is understandable that he would turn his attention to more important things - the Russian oil and other resources.

If Japan hadn't decided to attack Pearl Harbour, then as others have previously noted, it is unlikely that the USA would have entered the war.  Without the Americans, we would not have had the resources needed to invade France, nor would we have been able to keep Russia supplied.  Without allied support, Russia would probably have fallen (they only just held the Germans outside Moscow).  Sooner or later, either we would have come to an armistice, or Hitler would have turned his forces back on the thorn in his side.

[sir wanksalot]

He couldn't have attacked Britain until he had consolidated his hold on France.  And he was always going to attack the Soviet Union, as he needed the room to expand the German homeland.  However, his big mistake was to stop the bombing of the RAF airfields, just when the RAF was a wafer from being overwhelmed.  If he hadn't done that, then we would all be speaking German.  By turning to bombing of London and other cities, he gave the RAF the opportunity to regroup. 

But then history turns on so many slim margins.  If America hadn't had a president who was prepared to support Britain and bend the rules in order to provide us with arms, contrary popular opinion in the USA, then we would likely be speaking German.  If Halifax hadn't stood aside to allow Churchill to become PM, etc.

Fair points although I disagree that he was always going to attack the Soviet Union. If it was that obvious then the Soviets would have been prepared.

[petermisc]

Fair points although I disagree that he was always going to attack the Soviet Union. If it was that obvious then the Soviets would have been prepared.

Perhaps Stalin hadn't read Mein Kampf, and in particular what Hitler had to say about Bolshevism and the need for Germany to expand its homeland.