Holocaust Memorial day

[sir wanksalot]

Perhaps Stalin hadn't read Mein Kampf, and in particular what Hitler had to say about Bolshevism and the need for Germany to expand its homeland.

I'm not entirely sure if you're being facetious but I will take your post at face value.

Stalin and his entourage would have known Mein Kampf inside out. The Communist machine would have had a roladex with index cards detailing everything about Hitler including the colour of his underpants.

the Nazi-Soviet pact was a pragmatic treaty. It gave Stalin assurances that Hitler would respect Stalin's sphere of influence in a number of countries whilst the treaty bought Hitler time to consolidate his strength in Europe without fear of a Soviet attack..

Anyway, we are both guilty of going off topic. The Holocaust does not = World War Two

[DastardlyDick]

Auschwitz without a doubt.

It's more practical to see as it's a popular day trip from Krakow.

Auschwitz is actually a "2 site camp". The other site is called Birkenau. Auschwitz has many of the exhibits that will turn your blood cold whilst Birkenau will floor you with the sheer scale of the place.

Agree, Auschwitz is the one to visit - there's very little left of Bergen-Belsen, as the British Army had to incinerate most of the huts using flame throwers to try and prevent diseases spreading. The Auschwitz Camp, with the infamous "Arbeit macht Frei" gate was a former Polish Army Cavalry Barracks, which the Nazis first used for Political Prisoners, so was a true Concentration Camp it has a small Gas Chamber and Crematorium which you can visit. Birkenau started as a Work Camp, where people capable of working were worked until they could no longer do so, then killed in the Gas Chambers and disposed of in the adjacent Crematoria - it later became a Death Camp, where people went straight from the Train to the Gas Chamber's - these were blown up by the Nazis as they retreated from the Red Army, but there are some of the huts still standing, as well as the railway entrance, as seen in Schindler's List.
Auschwitz was actually the centre of a huge complex of Concentration/Death/Work Camps - Monowitz was just one - many of which were owned by various German Companies, such as Siemens etc who needed cheap Labour - no, not  free, they had to pay the SS for each forced worker.
There's also Mittlebau - Dora near Nordhausen in the German province of Thuringia where V2 rockets were made in Underground Factories where the conditions were even worse than Auschwitz, more forced workers were killed there than the V2s did when used in anger!

[sir wanksalot]

Agree, Auschwitz is the one to visit - there's very little left of Bergen-Belsen, as the British Army had to incinerate most of the huts using flame throwers to try and prevent diseases spreading. The Auschwitz Camp, with the infamous "Arbeit macht Frei" gate was a former Polish Army Cavalry Barracks, which the Nazis first used for Political Prisoners, so was a true Concentration Camp it has a small Gas Chamber and Crematorium which you can visit. Birkenau started as a Work Camp, where people capable of working were worked until they could no longer do so, then killed in the Gas Chambers and disposed of in the adjacent Crematoria - it later became a Death Camp, where people went straight from the Train to the Gas Chamber's - these were blown up by the Nazis as they retreated from the Red Army, but there are some of the huts still standing, as well as the railway entrance, as seen in Schindler's List.
Auschwitz was actually the centre of a huge complex of Concentration/Death/Work Camps - Monowitz was just one - many of which were owned by various German Companies, such as Siemens etc who needed cheap Labour - no, not  free, they had to pay the SS for each forced worker.
There's also Mittlebau - Dora near Nordhausen in the German province of Thuringia where V2 rockets were made in Underground Factories where the conditions were even worse than Auschwitz, more forced workers were killed there than the V2s did when used in anger!

Yes. I always found it infuriating that cancel culture seems to resolve about black rights yet many of the corporations we know today and have their tentacles in every aspect of our lives have blood on their hands from the Holocaust and WW2

[lostandfound]

Hitler was vehemently anti- communist as was Churchill and Hitler was convinced that he could come to an accomodation with Churchill (I didnt say he was rational!) Also a conquered Russia would provide raw materials (inc labour and soldiers) and "room for expansion" that the UK couldn't. Most of the UKs raw materials came from the Commonwealth who would almost certainly not surrender even if the UK did. The Hitler/Stalin pact included Russian supply of some of those materials but Hitler wanted more - and very nearly got them all 

Its a sobering thought that probably 70% of the worlds atomic research in the 1930s was going on in Germany They were so far ahead of everybody else - until they lost their Jewish scientists.

German atomic research was still going on ( if not for Kirk Douglas in The Heroes of Telemark we would have been in trouble ) although Heavy water is more for reactors than bombs

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I guess it makes a nice documentary / article in the Daily Mail, but the Nazi nuclear programme was nowhere near making a bomb.

Yes, fission was discovered in Germany in 1938, but before the Frisch-Peierls memorandum (UK, 1940) nuclear power was only imagined for power generation.

Everyone involved in the UK, and then US, assumed the Germans would be thinking along the same lines, but in reality they weren't.

A Russian physicist guessed the US was developing the bomb because all the eminent physicists over there disappeared from view, but the Germans never twigged.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Going back to the "what if we;d lost the Battle of britian we'd all be speaking German" etc.

Remember my dad who was in the RAF during said battle and our other rellies, they all said that if we had lost Air supremacy then the Navy would see off any Jerry invasion, convinced of that they were!...

[timsussex]

I guess it makes a nice documentary / article in the Daily Mail, but the Nazi nuclear programme was nowhere near making a bomb.

Yes, fission was discovered in Germany in 1938, but before the Frisch-Peierls memorandum (UK, 1940) nuclear power was only imagined for power generation.

Everyone involved in the UK, and then US, assumed the Germans would be thinking along the same lines, but in reality they weren't.

A Russian physicist guessed the US was developing the bomb because all the eminent physicists over there disappeared from view, but the Germans never twigged.

As  I noted the Germans were more interested in fission producing energy (hence the reference to The Heroes of Telemark and heavy water which is used as a moderator in reactors)
However that was after several distinguished Jewish scientists left the country, and a V2 loaded with radioactive isotopes or even just high level waste would still have made central London uninhabitable for many years

[lostandfound]

As  I noted the Germans were more interested in fission producing energy (hence the reference to The Heroes of Telemark and heavy water which is used as a moderator in reactors)
However that was after several distinguished Jewish scientists left the country, and a V2 loaded with radioactive isotopes or even just high level waste would still have made central London uninhabitable for many years

Not by the Germans in WW2 it wasn't!

Just as with the bomb, the only place in the world that had any reactor tech was the US, which was also the only place in the world able to produce fissionable material in any quantity.

[timsussex]

Not by the Germans in WW2 it wasn't!

...

so why did many brave men died to prevent the occupied Norwegian factory produced Heavy water reach Germany and why did the Germans want it ?  for Hitlers Bath ?

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[timsussex]

Yes, fission was discovered in Germany in 1938, but before the Frisch-Peierls memorandum (UK, 1940) nuclear power was only imagined for power generation.

Incorrect

The Einstein–Szilard letter was a letter written by Leo Szilard and signed by Albert Einstein on August 2, 1939, (note the date) that was sent to President of the United States Franklin D. Roosevelt. Written by Szilard in consultation with fellow Hungarian physicists Edward Teller and Eugene Wigner, the letter warned that Germany might develop atomic bombs and suggested that the United States should start its own nuclear program.

[TallnHung]

If we had developed the atomic bomb earlier, would the same justification have been used to drop it on Germany?

It was originally planned to be dropped on Germany. There were even very early plans to use a Lancaster to do so as until the B29 was developed only the Lancaster had the lift capacity for it. In fact the USA spent more on the B29 programme than they did the Manhattan Project.

Had the bomb not been heavily delayed Germany would have been a target. Only the delays and surrender of Germany stopped that. Makes you think.

[Blackpool Rock]

As  I noted the Germans were more interested in fission producing energy (hence the reference to The Heroes of Telemark and heavy water which is used as a moderator in reactors)
However that was after several distinguished Jewish scientists left the country, and a V2 loaded with radioactive isotopes or even just high level waste would still have made central London uninhabitable for many years

Some would say London is uninhabitable anyway 

[lostandfound]

Incorrect

The Einstein–Szilard letter was a letter written by Leo Szilard and signed by Albert Einstein on August 2, 1939, (note the date) that was sent to President of the United States Franklin D. Roosevelt. Written by Szilard in consultation with fellow Hungarian physicists Edward Teller and Eugene Wigner, the letter warned that Germany might develop atomic bombs and suggested that the United States should start its own nuclear program.

Dismissed as unlikely.

Noone imagined it as feasible until the Brits and their community of expat scientists. Though yes, Frisch and Peierls had been working on it for some time and it was their boss at Birmingham Uni, Marcus Oliphant, who asked them to write their memorandum.

Of course history was immediately rewritten as being all down to the Yanks, as will no doubt be demonstrated again in the upcoming film "Oppenheimer".

[TallnHung]

Of course history was immediately rewritten as being all down to the Yanks, as will no doubt be demonstrated again in the upcoming film "Oppenheimer".

Except the director, writers and the lead are all Brits.
But hey don't let that stop you deciding how inaccurate it is before you've seen it

[lostandfound]

Except the director, writers and the lead are all Brits.
But hey don't let that stop you deciding how inaccurate it is before you've seen it

 

Adapted from American Prometheus, a Pulitzer prize winning autobiography of Oppenheimer by two Americans.

I haven't read it, but looking at the toc I see Niels Bohr gets a mention!

Let's revisit after the film is released in July. 

[JontyR]

If its anything like the play that the RSC did then it focusses an awful lot more on his domestic situation rather than science and war.

[timsussex]

I was born in 1950 and my father and almost all of workmates had taken part in the war. As a child I was surprised by the difference in those that fought in the two theatres. Those that fought the Germans disliked them but the smaller number that had fought in the Far East vehemently hated the Japanese to a man.

Despite the horrors of Auschwitz there was still a separation in their minds between the Nazis and the "ordinary" Germans and they still held a grudging respect for the German soldier. I still remember one guy who had been a FEPOW and I have never met anyone with such a hatred about anything the way he hated everything Japanese.

There would have been many many more questions about using the bomb on Germany not least because many Americans had German roots while all the Japanese Americans had been interned in camps after Pearl Harbour

[DastardlyDick]

It was originally planned to be dropped on Germany. There were even very early plans to use a Lancaster to do so as until the B29 was developed only the Lancaster had the lift capacity for it. In fact the USA spent more on the B29 programme than they did the Manhattan Project.

Had the bomb not been heavily delayed Germany would have been a target. Only the delays and surrender of Germany stopped that. Makes you think.

On that, there were plans drawn up for RAF Lancasters to drop the Atom Bomb on Japan as well it got as far as forming a squadron, who's aircraft were plain black with no markings. The devices wouldn't fit in the B29's bomb bay due to the wing spar, they had to be converted - our contribution was the bomb releases developed for the Tallboy and Grand Slam Bombs, the American ones weren't up to the job of holding the weight safely. Had the RAF had to drop the bombs, it's unlikely they would have survived, the Lanc's couldn't outrun the shock wave like B29.

[petermisc]

Stalin and his entourage would have known Mein Kampf inside out. The Communist machine would have had a roladex with index cards detailing everything about Hitler including the colour of his underpants.

the Nazi-Soviet pact was a pragmatic treaty. It gave Stalin assurances that Hitler would respect Stalin's sphere of influence in a number of countries whilst the treaty bought Hitler time to consolidate his strength in Europe without fear of a Soviet attack..

Anyway, we are both guilty of going off topic. The Holocaust does not = World War Two

The inhabitants of the Russian steppes were as much a victim of the Holocaust as the Jews, as the German forces cleared them out ready for the German settlers.

If Stalin knew Mein Kampf inside out, as you claim, then why did he rely on his pact with Hitler?  It needs only a cursory reading of Mein Kampf to see that it was only a matter of time before Hitler would tear the pact up.  Mein Kampf makes it abundantly clear that Hitler regarded the Bolsheviks in the same light as Jews, and that any treaty made with a Bolshevik not worth anything.  And that the only way Germany could prosper was not just by taking back it's old territories, but by massively increasing its homeland, and the only realistic direction to expand was to the east, into Russia.  All in Mein Kampf.

Soviet intelligence would probably have known about Mein Kampf.  Whether they would have dared contradict Stalin's assesment of a deal with Hitler is another matter.

[JontyR]

The inhabitants of the Russian steppes were as much a victim of the Holocaust as the Jews, as the German forces cleared them out ready for the German settlers.

If Stalin knew Mein Kampf inside out, as you claim, then why did he rely on his pact with Hitler?  It needs only a cursory reading of Mein Kampf to see that it was only a matter of time before Hitler would tear the pact up.  Mein Kampf makes it abundantly clear that Hitler regarded the Bolsheviks in the same light as Jews, and that any treaty made with a Bolshevik not worth anything.  And that the only way Germany could prosper was not just by taking back it's old territories, but by massively increasing its homeland, and the only realistic direction to expand was to the east, into Russia.  All in Mein Kampf.

Soviet intelligence would probably have known about Mein Kampf.  Whether they would have dared contradict Stalin's assesment of a deal with Hitler is another matter.

There is a real danger that we consider that the USSR of 1939 was the same industrial and technological behemoth that became the international bogey man of the cold war era.

Russia was in a poor state going into the first world war. They then had a terrible war which lead to the Revolutions of 1917. Then there was an extended period of civil war. The fact the Bolsheviks survived at all is quite remarkable.

Although Germany lost the first world war the war never actually happened inside its borders and so whilst there were terrible econimic and social problems throughout the 20's the infrastrucutre was much stronger there than in nations to the east.

[sir wanksalot]

The inhabitants of the Russian steppes were as much a victim of the Holocaust as the Jews, as the German forces cleared them out ready for the German settlers.

If Stalin knew Mein Kampf inside out, as you claim, then why did he rely on his pact with Hitler?  It needs only a cursory reading of Mein Kampf to see that it was only a matter of time before Hitler would tear the pact up.  Mein Kampf makes it abundantly clear that Hitler regarded the Bolsheviks in the same light as Jews, and that any treaty made with a Bolshevik not worth anything.  And that the only way Germany could prosper was not just by taking back it's old territories, but by massively increasing its homeland, and the only realistic direction to expand was to the east, into Russia.  All in Mein Kampf.

Soviet intelligence would probably have known about Mein Kampf.  Whether they would have dared contradict Stalin's assesment of a deal with Hitler is another matter.

Hindsight is 20/20 they say.

I didn't say Stalin read Mein Kampf. If you're suggesting that Stalin had a copy of the book and read it with his feet up by the fireplace then that's NOT what I was saying. I said Stalin and/or his entourage i.e. the Communist machine.

The Communists were experts at gathering the smallest details of those they observed and their dossiers were frighteningly detailed. I find it very hard to believe they weren't aware of Hitler's idealogy.

Do you genuinely think that Stalin and the Soviets would undertake such a massive strategic, political and military step and NOT bother to read about the idealogy of Hitler from a book that was very widely available?  We're getting into silly little arguments here as neither you or I can prove it but you accept that Soviet intelligence would have knowledge of the book.

To answer your other question-why did Stalin agree to a pact with Hitler? For purely selfish reasons. Hitler afforded Stalin any gains he made in the East.

[petermisc]

I didn't say Stalin read Mein Kampf. If you're suggesting that Stalin had a copy of the book and read it with his feet up by the fireplace then that's NOT what I was saying. I said Stalin and/or his entourage i.e. the Communist machine.

Not quite what you said:

Stalin and his entourage would have known Mein Kampf inside out.

But putting that aside, it is obvious from Mein Kampf that Hitler intended to expand the German homeland into the Russian steppes, and would no more honour any treaty with a Bolshevik than he would one with a Jew.  If, as you say, Stalin and/or his entourage was well aware of all that, why did they trust Hitler to honour the pact?  As you say, Russia had patently failed to prepare for the invasion.

[petermisc]

Thinking over Hitler's intentions, prompted another "what if" thought. Remember that Hitler didn't declare war on France and Britain, it was us that declared war on Germany, when it invaded Poland. What would have happened if we had backed down again, like we had on previous occasions?

Hitler would likely have continued his expansion to the east.  I doubt that we would have bothered much when he invaded Russia - the Bolsheviks were hardly natural allies.  And without allied support for Russia, Moscow would probably have fallen.

But the big question is, if Britain and France hadn't declared war on Germany, would he ever have invaded France?  He certainly never intended to take on Britain, and held hopes of reaching some kind of accomodation long after we had declared war.  As others have pointed out, his strategy was to only fight on one front at a time, so once France had declared war, he had to deal with that thorn in the side, before continuing his expansion eastwards.  And he pretty much gave up on the invasion of France once he had got the Atlantic half, that we could have used as a landing stage.  The taking of the low countries was a consequence of the war with France and the need to protect the Atlantic coast against British invasion.

A sad part of the Holocaust was that those Jews who had managed to flee Germany to the low countries and France, were trapped again once Germany invaded those countries.  Hitler was initially happy for the Jews to flee Germany - as long as the German homeland was free of Jews.  Only once there was nowhere for them to flee to, did some other means of dealing with them become necessary.

Would the Holocaust have happened if we hadn't declared war on Germany?  It is an uncomfortable thought.

[timsussex]

Most of your points are good but the ultimate answer is yes it would still have happened
Most of the camps were in Eastern Europe - partly for work factories safer from allied bombings but also because that was where most of the Jews came from. 380,000 in the Warsaw Ghetto alone - virtually every major city had a Jewish quarter which became a Ghetto eg Krakov 25% of the town were Jewish
Similarly there were a lot of Russian Jews - who didnt exactly thrive under Stalin - but would have been added to the count  under Hitler

yes initially Hitler was happy for German Jews to flee but later he realised he needed slave labour - but had no use for the weak or young - hence the poem I started this off with

So yes some western European Jews would have been saved but the Holocaust would still have happened and possibly even more deaths
 

[DastardlyDick]

"The Communists were experts at gathering the smallest details of those they observed and their dossiers were frighteningly detailed."

So much so, that Heydrich, the Head of the SD, based his intelligence network on it - nobody in Nazi Germany dared say anything against the Nazi's - their network went down as far as a Street which had a "blockwart" for that specific purpose, and anyone could anonymously "denounce" someone to the Gestapo.

[Ybadman]

It is easily forgotten that it wasnt just Jews that were targeted and the Catholic church stayed silent

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

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and he really should have added another few verses about the Gays, the "Mentally Deficient" and all the other "subhumans" - according to Nazi ideology

Jews & to a lesser extent Roma were exclusively sent to the extermination camps in Poland: Treblinka, Sobibor & Chelmno.

It’s a common mistake people make. The average trade unionist or homosexual sent to a concentration camp within Germany served a fixed sentence & was released.

Persecuted? Yes but there is a significant difference between that and the systematic murder of Jewish men, women & children.

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[JontyR]

It’s a common mistake people make. The average trade unionist or homosexual sent to a concentration camp within Germany served a fixed sentence & was released.

Persecuted? Yes but there is a significant difference between that and the systematic murder of Jewish men, women & children.

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Alternatively from Holocaust Memorial Day Trust External Link/Members Only

"An estimated 10-15,000 men who were accused of homosexuality were deported to concentration camps. Most died in the camps, often from exhaustion. Many were castrated and some subjected to gruesome medical experiments. Collective murder actions were undertaken against gay detainees, exterminating hundreds at a time."

The scale of the horror is beyond my imagination. The rationale behind it so alien that it is beyond any tiwsted or bastardised logic. In such circumstance why would anyone seek to diminish the impact of one group to try as if it somehow diminishes the impact on another.