The New Doctor Who

[DouglasReynholm]

It's simple, that if the character being portrayed is a white man (which if you recall is how I started this by offering my view that the best Doctor was William Hartnell) then the best actor to play him will be a white male.  Likewise the woke Shakespeare productions with black Henrys and female Hamlets or whatever are rejected by the vast majority as ridiculous.  Same goes for the next James Bond; he's a white male, simple, just as if they were portraying Muhammad Ali it would necessarily be a black male for the job.  End of really. 

That kind of common sense will get you in trouble nowadays.   And somehow I don't think there'll be any "colour blind" casting where white people get to play Cassius Clay.

[JontyR]

That kind of common sense will get you in trouble nowadays.   And somehow I don't think there'll be any "colour blind" casting where white people get to play Cassius Clay.

The issue of race though is pretty integral to a lot of Ali's story though. The fact he returned from the Rome Olympic's and still was not allowed to eat in certain places bacause the colour of his skin. His comment about the Vietcong would also not really work.

I'm struggling to see where a black actor has played the role that is categorically white. Willing to hear of examples though. There was Anne Boleyn, but Boleyn's race wasn't intergral to her story.

[Jomoore]

That kind of common sense will get you in trouble nowadays.   And somehow I don't think there'll be any "colour blind" casting where white people get to play Cassius Clay.

You're right.  In fact I have a woke, self-flagellating, white-loathing "progressive" on my tail as we speak.  They preach tolerance but can't tolerate any form of opposing views

[JontyR]

You're right.  In fact I have a woke, self-flagellating, white-loathing "progressive" on my tail as we speak.  They preach tolerance but can't tolerate any form of opposing views

I pity you.

[Jomoore]

I pity you.

I enjoy your pity.  Pity on 

[JontyR]

I enjoy your pity.  Pity on 

I pity you.

[Gordon Bennett]

Hidden Image/Members Only

[chrishornx]

The issue of race though is pretty integral to a lot of Ali's story though. The fact he returned from the Rome Olympic's and still was not allowed to eat in certain places bacause the colour of his skin. His comment about the Vietcong would also not really work.

I'm struggling to see where a black actor has played the role that is categorically white. Willing to hear of examples though. There was Anne Boleyn, but Boleyn's race wasn't intergral to her story.

all depends on what you mean by 'categorically'

Morgan Freeman played Red in Shawshank, Halle Berry played Catwoman, Whitney Houston played the Fairy Godmother etc.

[JontyR]

all depends on what you mean by 'categorically'

Morgan Freeman played Red in Shawshank, Halle Berry played Catwoman, Whitney Houston played the Fairy Godmother etc.

Thank you.

Well the arguments put forward revolved around Margaret Thatcher and Muhammad Ali. These are figures who were filmed and photographed many times. There is little doubt as to their racial origin. Even now I am struggling to come up with a word that fits better than categorically...I'm sure there is one.

I'm guessing Catwoman's image orignally appeared in Comic Book form so there will be an image; but there is precedence for a black actor playing the role in Eartha Kitt.

Fairy Godmother from folk tales initially? So i'm guessing they would be the colour of whatever the folk telling the tales were and reflective of their societies of the time! And you can imagine that there are variations on the themes across the globe.

I've never read Shawshank was the race of the character of particular import in the source material?

You see to me, it actually isn't that important who plays what role. As stated it will be about the writing, the directing, the performance (and possibly budget) as to whether it will be plausible or not. I don't watch Doctor Who but I hope the actor is successful in the role, because the show brings a lot of joy to a lot of people. There seem to be some folks that will be delighted and wanting it to fail, which I think is a really sad and petty thing.

[The0neAnd0nly]

I've never read Shawshank was the race of the character of particular import in the source material?

It's been a while since I've read it but he is definitely described as a white Irish male in the books.

Although I thoroughly enjoyed Morgan Freeman in the movie I'm not sure why creatively he was cast in the role (maybe because of his voice for the narration or for representation?)

There is a joke in the movie when Andy Dufrense says "Why do they call you Red?"
And he replies jokingly "Maybe because I'm Irish" going back to the books. It just because his name is Ellis Redding - Red.

***

I mentioned this in the movies thread where the recent TV adaptation of The Stand - male characters were changed into female and white characters black. In one case a white Okhlahoman male into a female native American.

There was seemingly no reason for these changes or that it changed the story in anyway it was just so more groups were represented.

[PepeMAGA]

all depends on what you mean by 'categorically'

Morgan Freeman played Red in Shawshank, Halle Berry played Catwoman, Whitney Houston played the Fairy Godmother etc.

Also Idris Elba in the Dark Tower, the attempt to recruit him for Bond too.
Anne Boleyn was undoubtedly white, this is clear from paintings and her lineage. Changing her to African decent completely changes the story and what would been her lifestyle at the time, how society viewed her etc

[ChristianTheDolphin]

I really find some of the points on this thread amusing. There is no attack on white people and whitness, corporations being "woke" is only a facade. It simply boils down to money, as it always does. Franchises like Doctor Who and James Bond have been targetting white people (Specifically heterosexual white men) since that has been the majority as well as the people with more money. Times are changing, demographics are shifting and as a result these franchises realise that they have to appeal to other demographics than heterosexual white men in order to make more money.
Hilarious to imagine that these people in board meetings are worrying about the social, racial and political issues of the world. They only care about the money and would ditch the whole "woke" act as soon as it seizes to be profitable.

[stampjones]

Also Idris Elba in the Dark Tower, the attempt to recruit him for Bond too.
Anne Boleyn was undoubtedly white, this is clear from paintings and her lineage. Changing her to African decent completely changes the story and what would been her lifestyle at the time, how society viewed her etc

Hmm yes and Im sure you’re also complaining about all the white people who blacked up over the years and straight people playing gay people or trans people or whatever else. Im sure you were also on here complaining like shit when daniel craig, someone with blond hair was picked to play james bond, a man who was clearly described as dark haired. Or that time he played a Jew or a Swede. Oh you werent? No surprise I guess!

[Ali Katt]

I really find some of the points on this thread amusing. There is no attack on white people and whitness, corporations being "woke" is only a facade. It simply boils down to money, as it always does. Franchises like Doctor Who and James Bond have been targetting white people (Specifically heterosexual white men) since that has been the majority as well as the people with more money. Times are changing, demographics are shifting and as a result these franchises realise that they have to appeal to other demographics than heterosexual white men in order to make more money.
Hilarious to imagine that these people in board meetings are worrying about the social, racial and political issues of the world. They only care about the money and would ditch the whole "woke" act as soon as it seizes to be profitable.

Look what happened when they had female Dr Who. The ratings went down.

[King Nuts]

They only care about the money and would ditch the whole "woke" act as soon as it seizes to be profitable.

I wish that were true. In my line of work, I'm surrounded by the wokerati and I honestly see their wokeness as them merely trying to be virtuous.

Look at the way TV ads have gone, as well as tv comedy and drama. Advertising no longer has the massive budgets it used to have. Viewing figures for most non-streaming tv drama have sunk like a stone. TV comedy ceased to be funny some time ago. Classic series like Yes, Minister and a hundred others wouldn't get made any more. I bet even films like the Lord of the Rings series wouldn't get made these days, as it's obviously 'reinforcing classic stereotypes'.

There's no law requiring films and tv to be woke. Those behind it have just taken it upon themselves to be so. And if it were not for the massive financial boost from the likes of Netflix, Apple TV+ and the other streamers, we'd see a bit more financial realism.

[Ali Katt]

I wish that were true. In my line of work, I'm surrounded by the wokerati and I honestly see their wokeness as them merely trying to be virtuous.

Look at the way TV ads have gone, as well as tv comedy and drama. Advertising no longer has the massive budgets it used to have. Viewing figures for most non-streaming tv drama have sunk like a stone. TV comedy ceased to be funny some time ago. Classic series like Yes, Minister and a hundred others wouldn't get made any more. I bet even films like the Lord of the Rings series wouldn't get made these days, as it's obviously 'reinforcing classic stereotypes'.

There's no law requiring films and tv to be woke. Those behind it have just taken it upon themselves to be so. And if it were not for the massive financial boost from the likes of Netflix, Apple TV+ and the other streamers, we'd see a bit more financial realism.

Andrew Lawrence talked about woke comedians. He said the idea isn't to tell jokes or be funny, but to have people clap in smug agreement; albeit it phrased much more eloquently.

[spiralnotebook]

If it’s a black actor they could rename the programme Doctor Wad.

Get Samuel L Jackson in, what a doc he’d make!

[King Nuts]

Andrew Lawrence talked about woke comedians. He said the idea isn't to tell jokes or be funny, but to have people clap in smug agreement; albeit it phrased much more eloquently.

That's a good point. A major part of wokery after all is the unshakeable belief that the moral high ground is theirs, and looking down on the peasants and C2s is all part of the deal.

Until they start turning in on each other, of course. That's when it gets really amusing.

[JontyR]

I bet even films like the Lord of the Rings series wouldn't get made these days, as it's obviously 'reinforcing classic stereotypes'.

I'll take your bet. I'll even give you odds.

And they rebooted Yes Minister a decade ago. And it was panned. Because the writing, the direction and the performance were not a patch on the original.

[hendrix]

Very funny that a fictional programme about a time travelling alien creature casts a black man/woman/whatever who cares, boils so much piss 😂 😂

[RedKettle]

Very funny that a fictional programme about a time travelling alien creature casts a black man/woman/whatever who cares, boils so much piss 😂 😂

Yes I thought it was funny, it is an alien who rejuvenates FFS!

Yes generally I suspect TV and film casting is probably at the moment heavier on people of colour, gays etc then society - but it is making up for being almost pure white and straight forever. It will adjust back to about right and hopefully it stops becoming an issue that anyone talks about.

[Ali Katt]

Very funny that a fictional programme about a time travelling alien creature casts a black man/woman/whatever who cares, boils so much piss 😂 😂

As I've said it's kid's TV, let's not pretend it ever was some great masterpiece of sci-fi. It might be iconic, but its legacy is totally fabricated by the BBC much like The Office. Clearly evident when you look at the rehashed plots of the new one and deliberate attempts to make it look camp and kitschy for bantz. It's shite.

[Ali Katt]

Yes I thought it was funny, it is an alien who rejuvenates FFS!

Yes generally I suspect TV and film casting is probably at the moment heavier on people of colour, gays etc then society - but it is making up for being almost pure white and straight forever. It will adjust back to about right and hopefully it stops becoming an issue that anyone talks about.

I think a lot of millennials, Gen X and Gen Z have collective amnesia. Not being ageist. I can remember enjoying The Desmond's in the 90s a positive portrayal of black communities and very funny in places and The Buddha of Suburbia a superb comedy drama with a gay Indian teenager. That was over 30 years ago.

I think people are pissed off more with the box ticking. Why does nearly every drama need a gay character, a feminist subtext and even a racism subplot. A racist cop in something like Life On Mars works because of the time period and it was well written and funny, but if it adds nothing to the plot why put it in to appear woke?

[Ali Katt]

I'll take your bet. I'll even give you odds.

And they rebooted Yes Minister a decade ago. And it was panned. Because the writing, the direction and the performance were not a patch on the original.

Yes Minister became the Thick Of It. Only reason it really isn't talked about that much now despite winning loads of awards is because of Chris Langham.

[RedKettle]

I think people are pissed off more with the box ticking. Why does nearly every drama need a gay character, a feminist subtext and even a racism subplot. A racist cop in something like Life On Mars works because of the time period and it was well written and funny, but if it adds nothing to the plot why put it in to appear woke?

I agree it has got silly. But I see it as that and groan or laugh at it. I don’t see any reason to get angry or wind myself or others up about it.  As I said before it will soon correct back and we will be in a better place.

[Ali Katt]

I agree it has got silly. But I see it as that and groan or laugh at it. I don’t see any reason to get angry or wind myself or others up about it.  As I said before it will soon correct back and we will be in a better place.

I think ultimately the consumer will make the choice and a lot of TV which is a critical favourite is a commercial flop. Even a megahit like Killing Eve ended quickly compared to something like Taggart. Ironically one of the most popular sitcoms of the last 20 years, The Inbetweeners could easily be dubbed sexist, but it's bloody funny in places. Where as a lot of woke comedy like Frankie Boyle's new world order doesn't get anywhere near the same amount of fans.

[King Nuts]

I think people are pissed off more with the box ticking. Why does nearly every drama need a gay character, a feminist subtext and even a racism subplot. A racist cop in something like Life On Mars works because of the time period and it was well written and funny, but if it adds nothing to the plot why put it in to appear woke?

We know why. There's no law or regulation that says they have to do this. It's all about showing the correct credentials.

Thus the Woke become the UberWoke, and you end up with the slurry of nonsense that infests every single tv drama and comedy these days.

And viewers ARE switching off. Main channel TV drama is lucky to get 3 or 4 million viewers these days, and the viewing figures are fudged by including catch-up estimates. Meanwhile, the likes of BBC3 frequently only reach a hundred thousand or so. Yes, I know there's vastly more choice these days, but even so.

Go back not that far, and the likes of Corrie, Two Ronnies etc would easily hit 25+ million. And the population was that much smaller then, too.

[JontyR]

Go back not that far, and the likes of Corrie, Two Ronnies etc would easily hit 25+ million. And the population was that much smaller then, too.

And there were only 3 channels prior to 1982. They weren't even on all day. Or even all daylight hours. And only a handful of radio stations. And media was static and not mobile.

And prior to telly the cinemas were all full, and there were loads of them.

And prior to that the music halls and theatres were all full. And there were loads of them.

Why did they lose patronage? Because they gave women the vote?

There's also a generational difference, telly was the most dominant media and cultural outlet when I was growing up. Not for the kids of today. Same goes for print media. Most folks had at least one paper delivered per day. And a whole clutch on a Sunday. They didn't lose their position because they became woke. They became less competitive as folks had much more choice.

[Ali Katt]

Now there's about 300 channels on Freeview and people say there's nothing worth watching. Loads of people say Netflix is shit apart from the exclusives. Prime Video people have said the same. Mubi I joined recently and it's definitely my thing, but would be a turn off for 75% of the UK I can imagine.