The Politics Thread

[RandomGuy99]

Are you feeling ok ?
This & mines 
You & @Punting2022 should get a room
He can mine your channel

We need lasers! big lasers

It does seem like the world has gone mad. We didn't have these problems back in the 1980s. Why is that? I blame social media and the ease of people being able to find traffickers willing to help people cross to the UK.

Nobody seems to have the balls to stand up and say "no, this isn't allowed.  Try to enter the UK illegal and we'll just return you immediately"

[scutty brown]

Killer whales and dolphins fitted with lasers would do it.
And a few trained narwhals would soon puncture those rubber boats

[DastardlyDick]

Killer whales and dolphins fitted with lasers would do it.
And a few trained narwhals would soon puncture those rubber boats

The US Navy tried training Dolphins to attach limpet mines - afaik, there are no mine laying dolphins currently, so it obviously didn't go well.

[Punting2022]

The US Navy tried training Dolphins to attach limpet mines - afaik, there are no mine laying dolphins currently, so it obviously didn't go well.

i also read the evil islamic regime in iran are using dolphins

[DastardlyDick]

i also read the evil islamic regime in iran are using dolphins

The US did train some dolphins (and Sealions) to detect mines and recover lost equipment - their Sonar is way ahead of anything man made. Allegedly, the Soviets had something similar, but they sold them to Iran.

[Thephoenix]

Having a little peep at the politics thread and thought I'd mistakenly clicked on the joke thread.

However, it's easy to mock some of the ridiculous and unworkable suggestions put forward by politicians and punter folk, but no-one seems to be able to come up with a better deterrent than using offshore processing centres

Yes it's controversial,  costly, and has many critics, but the critics' seem unable to offer better alternatives.
Perhaps they're happy with the current situation and believe deterrents aren't required

The process is already in use by other countries such as Denmark, Italy, Australia and U.S. in various forms.

As tensions rise in areas where large numbers of illegal immigrants are being housed, the problem will get worse and the situation seems intractable.
Nothing seems to deter those intent on crossing the channel and The French authorities appear uninterested.

Is it time to follow the lead of other countries and re-examine this idea?

[Blackpool Rock]

if you want to stop the majority of these boats using animals then there's a safe way to do it, basically you train pigs by feeding them from small boats and then deposit a group of feral pigs onto the beaches in France

Every time they then see a small boat they'll make a beeline for it, now see how many people will go within 50 metres of that boat 

 External Link/Members Only

[Jerboa]

It was mooted by Priti Patel - the RN said no and cited International Law. Unless s/he fancies jail time in The Hague, no Navy Officer will carry out an order to stop small boats with a Naval vessel. The French might have something to say about RM Commando's  landing on their beaches too, and they have a bigger Navy.
This is Reform rallying round the Dear Leader trying to distract from the Investigations he, his deputy, and his party are facing.

The order won't be to push back the boats, it will be to intercept them in French waters, bring the migrants onboard and deliver them back to the French beaches.

[RandomGuy99]

The order won't be to push back the boats, it will be to intercept them in French waters, bring the migrants onboard and deliver them back to the French beaches.

So the Royal Navy entering french waters?

Isn't that how wars start?

[Vice Admiral]

Something new every day...

Hands up those who have ever heard of Ceuta before?  Or Melilla, the other Spanish enclave in North Africa?

Meanwhile, this may be a foretaste of things to come.  For it is widely predicted that climate change may force many millions northwards from the expanding Sahara, with (Google AI says) conflict and localised loss of livelihoods a contributory factor.

And Europe will be these people's favoured ultimate destination.

Happy days.  By comparison, the small boats crossing the Channel will come to look like a drop in the ocean...

William Hague, wise and well-informed as ever, develops this theme in a deeply depressing opinion piece in today’s Times, under the headline, “Ceuta is a warning the West cannot ignore”.

Here is an extract:
_______________

While birth rates are falling across the world, they are still at their highest in parts of the Sahel.  [That’s the dry zone between the Sahara Desert and the southern savannas, including Mauritania, Mali, and Niger; and parts of Senegal, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, Chad, Cameroon, and Sudan.]

In Chad and Niger, the latest UN projections indicate a doubling of the population in the next 25 years alone. Across the region there are expected to be 250 million additional people by 2050. The median age in Sahel countries will be 23, compared with Europe’s 46, and their average density will be 144 people per square kilometre to Europe’s 32.

This would be a massive economic and development challenge in the best of circumstances, but unfortunately these countries face probably the worst combination of circumstances on the entire planet. Their climate is warming faster than the global average. Added to forest clearances and the exhaustion of marginal land, this is bringing an expanding desert and conflict between herders and farmers. Some nations — Mali in particular — have endured long civil wars. On the edge of the region, Sudan remains mired in the world’s bloodiest conflict.

Soon there will be hundreds of millions of young people, badly governed, with a desert expanding and their opportunities diminishing. And one day they will start moving, in numbers never seen before and which no fortress Europe or fortress Britain can keep out.
_______________

That's the future.  It's not far away.  And it's absolutely terrifying.

[Jerboa]

So the Royal Navy entering french waters?

Isn't that how wars start?

That's what Farage said at their press conference yesterday, if they are in French waters, by maritime law, returning the migrants back to France is wholly in line with maritime law.
Do you think France will declare war? 

[Jerboa]

William Hague, wise and well-informed as ever, develops this theme in a deeply depressing opinion piece in today’s Times, under the headline, “Ceuta is a warning the West cannot ignore”.

Here is an extract:
_______________

While birth rates are falling across the world, they are still at their highest in parts of the Sahel.  [That’s the dry zone between the Sahara Desert and the southern savannas, including Mauritania, Mali, and Niger; and parts of Senegal, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, Chad, Cameroon, and Sudan.]

In Chad and Niger, the latest UN projections indicate a doubling of the population in the next 25 years alone. Across the region there are expected to be 250 million additional people by 2050. The median age in Sahel countries will be 23, compared with Europe’s 46, and their average density will be 144 people per square kilometre to Europe’s 32.

This would be a massive economic and development challenge in the best of circumstances, but unfortunately these countries face probably the worst combination of circumstances on the entire planet. Their climate is warming faster than the global average. Added to forest clearances and the exhaustion of marginal land, this is bringing an expanding desert and conflict between herders and farmers. Some nations — Mali in particular — have endured long civil wars. On the edge of the region, Sudan remains mired in the world’s bloodiest conflict.

Soon there will be hundreds of millions of young people, badly governed, with a desert expanding and their opportunities diminishing. And one day they will start moving, in numbers never seen before and which no fortress Europe or fortress Britain can keep out.
_______________

That's the future.  It's not far away.  And it's absolutely terrifying.

What no one seems to be talking about, is with the closure of the straights of Hormuz and sanctioning of Russia, fertiliser is not getting to Africa, millions may starve.

[scutty brown]

What no one seems to be talking about, is with the closure of the straights of Hormuz and sanctioning of Russia, fertiliser is not getting to Africa, millions may starve.

A bigger issue is that since Russia restarted re-attacking shipping at Ukrainian ports a couple of weeks ago no grain has shipped from Russia or Ukraine, nor has any ammonia or ammonium nitrate. The two blockades will  cause starvation in Africa and the middle east and Asia.
The cure for this is in Russia's control - they just need to stop fighting

[RedKettle]

Long term economy and healthcare is better not letting them in.

Although immigration increases economic growth and healthcare relies on workers from abroad.  (Although that is really legal migration and you are talking about the 30k of illegal immigration that is tiny, if any, impact on economy of UK.)

[RedKettle]

However, it's easy to mock some of the ridiculous and unworkable suggestions put forward by politicians and punter folk, but no-one seems to be able to come up with a better deterrent than using offshore processing centres

Except that the policy of the current government (and that of the end of the last Tory one) is working and reducing numbers - amazes me that all you people up in arms about illegal immigration have a total blind spot to the good news story.  Why is that?  Do you need a group to hate to help drive a political agenda?  Where have we seen that before???

[Jerboa]

A bigger issue is that since Russia restarted re-attacking shipping at Ukrainian ports a couple of weeks ago no grain has shipped from Russia or Ukraine, nor has any ammonia or ammonium nitrate. The two blockades will  cause starvation in Africa and the middle east and Asia.
The cure for this is in Russia's control - they just need to stop fighting

Russia until recently did not make a full blockade on Odessa, maybe you are unaware but Ukraine started droning vessels in the sea of azov, so Ukraine experienced the FAFO factor. Now most commercial shipping companies refused to go to Odessa. The only ships that do are shipping weapons. Shipping is continuing out of Russian Black sea ports.

[RandomGuy99]

That's what Farage said at their press conference yesterday, if they are in French waters, by maritime law, returning the migrants back to France is wholly in line with maritime law.
Do you think France will declare war? 

Well it has been a while and it would be a walkover for them right now

[mills_and_bhuna]

A bigger issue is that since Russia restarted re-attacking shipping at Ukrainian ports a couple of weeks ago no grain has shipped from Russia or Ukraine, nor has any ammonia or ammonium nitrate. The two blockades will  cause starvation in Africa and the middle east and Asia.
The cure for this is in Russia's control - they just need to stop fighting

The cure for this is for the US to stop funding the fighting.
And for the EU leaders to implement policies in their own interests(the people not the politicians), instead of US corporate interests.

[mills_and_bhuna]

William Hague, wise and well-informed as ever, develops this theme in a deeply depressing opinion piece in today’s Times, under the headline, “Ceuta is a warning the West cannot ignore”.

Here is an extract:
_______________

While birth rates are falling across the world, they are still at their highest in parts of the Sahel.  [That’s the dry zone between the Sahara Desert and the southern savannas, including Mauritania, Mali, and Niger; and parts of Senegal, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, Chad, Cameroon, and Sudan.]

In Chad and Niger, the latest UN projections indicate a doubling of the population in the next 25 years alone. Across the region there are expected to be 250 million additional people by 2050. The median age in Sahel countries will be 23, compared with Europe’s 46, and their average density will be 144 people per square kilometre to Europe’s 32.

This would be a massive economic and development challenge in the best of circumstances, but unfortunately these countries face probably the worst combination of circumstances on the entire planet. Their climate is warming faster than the global average. Added to forest clearances and the exhaustion of marginal land, this is bringing an expanding desert and conflict between herders and farmers. Some nations — Mali in particular — have endured long civil wars. On the edge of the region, Sudan remains mired in the world’s bloodiest conflict.

Soon there will be hundreds of millions of young people, badly governed, with a desert expanding and their opportunities diminishing. And one day they will start moving, in numbers never seen before and which no fortress Europe or fortress Britain can keep out.
_______________

That's the future.  It's not far away.  And it's absolutely terrifying.

But not so well informed that he hasn't been reading between the lines on recent US, Israeli and Moroccan statements and actions regarding Spain and their enclaves.

[mills_and_bhuna]

i also read the evil islamic regime in iran are using dolphins

Just amazing what stuff they print n the Beano nowadays 

[bigden40]

Although immigration increases economic growth and healthcare relies on workers from abroad.  (Although that is really legal migration and you are talking about the 30k of illegal immigration that is tiny, if any, impact on economy of UK.)

That’s barely half the story.

High volume immigration of uneducated and unskilled migrants has increased nominal GDP whilst leaving GDP per capita and real wages depressed.  So there may have been growth but the British people have not benefitted for it.  This is the macro story of the last 20-25 years.

Illegal immigration is higher than 30k, that doesn’t even cover the small boat arrivals which are about 45k, visa overstayers exceedsthat (50-100,000/year).  Reasonable estimates put the total undocumented population of the UK to be 800k+, this is not a “tiny impact”.

The waters are muddied further (on purpose i believe to obfuscate the headline numbers) by excluding many people who enter illegally who are “legalised” through the asylum process.

Yes, some sectors like healthcare are heavily dependent on migrant labour and I’m all for importing skills we actively need.  But the majority of people entering our country, legally or illegally, are not in that category. 

[webpunter]

The two blockades will  cause starvation in Africa

Africa population growth is the highest in the world twice the birth rate of other countries [just under 4 babies per mother c.f. just over 2 worldwide]
The continent is struggling to feed the 1.6 bn population as is [projected to grow to 2.5bn by 2050]
This will lead to more migration towards Europe & the UK  , wonderful
The blockades will help thin them out a bit

[Jerboa]

The cure for this is for the US to stop funding the fighting.
And for the EU leaders to implement policies in their own interests(the people not the politicians), instead of US corporate interests.

But then the military industrial complex will lose their gravy train.

[Thephoenix]

The order won't be to push back the boats, it will be to intercept them in French waters, bring the migrants onboard and deliver them back to the French beaches.

What are you on chum? 

[Jerboa]

What are you on chum? 

I'm just explaining what was stated, what are you on?

[Thephoenix]

Except that the policy of the current government (and that of the end of the last Tory one) is working and reducing numbers - amazes me that all you people up in arms about illegal immigration have a total blind spot to the good news story.  Why is that?  Do you need a group to hate to help drive a political agenda?  Where have we seen that before???

The reduction in numbers may only be temporary and is probably the result of many other factors than current government policies.
It's good news. Let's hope it continues.

I find your second point particularly offensive as I guess many others would.
Likening the many folk who are concerned about the seemingly uncontrolled numbers of illegal immigrants to Nazis is outrageous and not what I would expect from you.

As your comments were a direct response to my post I find that particularly galling.
You have no idea what my politics are, but I can assure you they're a long way from what you're insinuating.

[DastardlyDick]

The order won't be to push back the boats, it will be to intercept them in French waters, bring the migrants onboard and deliver them back to the French beaches.

Which would still be Illegal - the Royal Navy cannot go into another Country's Territorial Waters, which start 12 miles from that Country's coast. The French Navy has around 180 active ships - the Royal Navy has 60. Also, the minute they picked anybody up, they'd be on UK Territory and our responsibility.

[RedKettle]

The reduction in numbers may only be temporary and is probably the result of many other factors than current government policies.
It's good news. Let's hope it continues.

I find your second point particularly offensive as I guess many others would.
Likening the many folk who are concerned about the seemingly uncontrolled numbers of illegal immigrants to Nazis is outrageous and not what I would expect from you.

As your comments were a direct response to my post I find that particularly galling.
You have no idea what my politics are, but I can assure you they're a long way from what you're insinuating.

It needs to be said. Populist parties around the world including Reform and Maga are using the same playbook as in the 20s and 30s. That is not just me saying it but many serious historians of the period. The parallels are chilling. Key to that was to create a group to blame for everything and be the focus of hatred.  I am not saying you personally are part of that but many are being led down that path.

[Punting2022]

So i have read Great White sharks are seen in the English CHANNEL. So forget mines. we have a natural defence against the dinghys.

[DastardlyDick]

It needs to be said. Populist parties around the world including Reform and Maga are using the same playbook as in the 20s and 30s. That is not just me saying it but many serious historians of the period. The parallels are chilling. Key to that was to create a group to blame for everything and be the focus of hatred.  I am not saying you personally are part of that but many are being led down that path.

Well said 

[nwluvit]

Everybody should go and see the Wall of Terror in Berlin. Documents the rise of the Nazis from the very beginning. It's very sobering and frightening-many similarities with today.

[Blackpool Rock]

It needs to be said. Populist parties around the world including Reform and Maga are using the same playbook as in the 20s and 30s. That is not just me saying it but many serious historians of the period. The parallels are chilling. Key to that was to create a group to blame for everything and be the focus of hatred.  I am not saying you personally are part of that but many are being led down that path.

Yep i've said the same myself about them using the same playbook, why do they do it, well because it works and most people in this day and age don't remember the shit that happened back then.
Even when reminded most people will think that that was then and it couldn't happen now but IMO democracy is a fairly thin veneer and once you start scratching the surface....................

[RandomGuy99]

We should ask Elon to fix the boats issue.

[RedKettle]

That’s barely half the story.

High volume immigration of uneducated and unskilled migrants has increased nominal GDP whilst leaving GDP per capita and real wages depressed.  So there may have been growth but the British people have not benefitted for it.  This is the macro story of the last 20-25 years.

Illegal immigration is higher than 30k, that doesn’t even cover the small boat arrivals which are about 45k, visa overstayers exceedsthat (50-100,000/year).  Reasonable estimates put the total undocumented population of the UK to be 800k+, this is not a “tiny impact”.

The waters are muddied further (on purpose i believe to obfuscate the headline numbers) by excluding many people who enter illegally who are “legalised” through the asylum process.

Yes, some sectors like healthcare are heavily dependent on migrant labour and I’m all for importing skills we actively need.  But the majority of people entering our country, legally or illegally, are not in that category.

With respect of course my post was only part of the story it was a two line reply to a 1 line post by an idiot.  This is a very complex issue but I was simply trying to illustrate that there is more to it than the reform style mantra. Like most developed economies we require immigrants to improve our economy and deal with an aging population.

We have to get a grip on illegal migration but I do worry that it is such a high priority that everything else gets drowned out. Frankly the greatest threat to our economy and social cohesion is AI. (It is also the greatest opportunity!)

[Jerboa]

Which would still be Illegal - the Royal Navy cannot go into another Country's Territorial Waters, which start 12 miles from that Country's coast. The French Navy has around 180 active ships - the Royal Navy has 60. Also, the minute they picked anybody up, they'd be on UK Territory and our responsibility.

At this point illegal migration is a national security threat, we pay France millions, for them to do next to nothing. It would be preferable if France supported the operation, but if they don't that's not a reason to not do it. Do you really think a state of war would occur if Britain did that?

[bigden40]

With respect of course my post was only part of the story it was a two line reply to a 1 line post by an idiot.  This is a very complex issue but I was simply trying to illustrate that there is more to it than the reform style mantra. Like most developed economies we require immigrants to improve our economy and deal with an aging population.

We have to get a grip on illegal migration but I do worry that it is such a high priority that everything else gets drowned out. Frankly the greatest threat to our economy and social cohesion is AI. (It is also the greatest opportunity!)

Fair enough

[bigden40]

It needs to be said. Populist parties around the world including Reform and Maga are using the same playbook as in the 20s and 30s. That is not just me saying it but many serious historians of the period. The parallels are chilling. Key to that was to create a group to blame for everything and be the focus of hatred.  I am not saying you personally are part of that but many are being led down that path.

Nah.  That’s a lazy and ahistorical smear. Treating Reform or MAGA voters as 1930s fascists because they object to mass immigration, elite failure, or identity politics is pure projection - the actual authoritarian playbook of the interwar years involved paramilitaries, one-party states, and the destruction of liberal institutions, not winning elections and arguing about borders.

The chilling parallel is the eagerness to apply labels to anyone who won’t accept progressive orthodoxy.

[Punting2022]

We all know who the supect is here.
External Link/Members Only
LONDON HAS FALLEN .

[bigden40]

We all know who the supect is here.
External Link/Members Only
LONDON HAS FALLEN .

Yes we do.  It was a white woman. You must be devastated.

It appears that the 47-year old woman stabbed 4 men with scissors and was having a mental health incident. 

[mh]

However, it's easy to mock some of the ridiculous and unworkable suggestions put forward by politicians and punter folk, but no-one seems to be able to come up with a better deterrent than using offshore processing centres

Yes it's controversial,  costly, and has many critics, but the critics' seem unable to offer better alternatives.
Perhaps they're happy with the current situation and believe deterrents aren't required

The process is already in use by other countries such as Denmark, Italy, Australia and U.S. in various forms.

There is a world of difference between having an off shore processing system and something like the Tory Rwanda scheme which was not that. The Rwanda scheme was paying a country to take refugees trying to enter the UK, never to come back here even if their asylum claim would have been valid. In the end they only sent 3 people who decided to take the money to go and then promptly disappeared. Look at the details of those other country's schemes carefully.

[RedKettle]

Nah.  That’s a lazy and ahistorical smear. Treating Reform or MAGA voters as 1930s fascists because they object to mass immigration, elite failure, or identity politics is pure projection - the actual authoritarian playbook of the interwar years involved paramilitaries, one-party states, and the destruction of liberal institutions, not winning elections and arguing about borders.

The chilling parallel is the eagerness to apply labels to anyone who won’t accept progressive orthodoxy.

It was lazy as I kept to just the immigration point that was being discussed. There are plenty of other aspects around for example the manipulation of legal systems, discrediting media, attacking electoral systems etc etc. Open your mind and do some research and you will find many interesting articles. Not saying you should agree but at least listen to the case.

Oh and ICE is pretty close to a paramilitary organisation as it is no longer accountable to US law.

[bigden40]

It was lazy as I kept to just the immigration point that was being discussed. There are plenty of other aspects around for example the manipulation of legal systems, discrediting media, attacking electoral systems etc etc. Open your mind and do some research and you will find many interesting articles. Not saying you should agree but at least listen to the case.

Oh and ICE is pretty close to a paramilitary organisation as it is no longer accountable to US law.

I’m listening, and still unconvinced. The parallels are contrived. 

Criticising courts, media or election processes is routine political combat on both sides, not a unique 1930s ‘playbook.’ Treating ordinary conservative or populist positions as inherently fascistic remains the overstatement.

As for ICE: it is a federal law-enforcement agency created by statute, funded by Congress, subject to judicial review, internal affairs, the DHS Inspector General and ongoing litigation. Calling it a paramilitary ‘no longer accountable to US law’ is hyperbolic rhetoric, not an accurate description. Even critics who dislike its current tactics or reduced oversight still litigate against it in federal courts precisely because the law still applies.

[DastardlyDick]

These articles summarises Hitler's  modus operandi
External Link/Members Only
External Link/Members Only

[WARSZAWA16]

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Punting2022]

Yes we do.  It was a white woman. You must be devastated.

It appears that the 47-year old woman stabbed 4 men with scissors and was having a mental health incident.

Hope she gets the right help

[Blackpool Rock]

Badenoch seems to have made a major error of judgement letting this convicted Neo Nazi stand for election as a Tory candidate, is she really that short of options 

Most people would agree with the theory of giving people 2nd chances but then again public office does seem like it's a bit too far 

External Link/Members Only

[bigden40]

Badenoch seems to have made a major error of judgement letting this convicted Neo Nazi stand for election as a Tory candidate, is she really that short of options 

Most people would agree with the theory of giving people 2nd chances but then again public office does seem like it's a bit too far 

External Link/Members Only

Does seem like an unforced error.

[Thephoenix]

I’m listening, and still unconvinced. The parallels are contrived. 
Treating ordinary conservative or populist positions as inherently fascistic remains the overstatement

....and that remains an understatement.

[Squire Haggard]

If I leave my house I lock my doors because I dont want unknown people coming into my house. If that makes me far right or a Nazi then so be it.

[RedKettle]

I’m listening, and still unconvinced. The parallels are contrived. 

Criticising courts, media or election processes is routine political combat on both sides, not a unique 1930s ‘playbook.’ Treating ordinary conservative or populist positions as inherently fascistic remains the overstatement.

As for ICE: it is a federal law-enforcement agency created by statute, funded by Congress, subject to judicial review, internal affairs, the DHS Inspector General and ongoing litigation. Calling it a paramilitary ‘no longer accountable to US law’ is hyperbolic rhetoric, not an accurate description. Even critics who dislike its current tactics or reduced oversight still litigate against it in federal courts precisely because the law still applies.

The FBI told that they can no longer investigate ICE!?