The Politics Thread

[Massagemanmr]

At PMQ's the whole uniparty backed the usual we must learn lessons and not create division on Henry Nowak. No politicians or commentators I've seen have been divisive. People want a constructive conversation about two tier policing and the scourge of CRT and DEI in many of the states institutions. The hypocrisy of Two Tier Starmer, and others who after the death of career criminal George Floyd in America in 2020, I never heard any condemnation of the violence back then.

it's always the same we must not create division .....

Then they arrest (white Christan male) RAF war veterans who say no more genocide , label them as jew haters and anti semetic for criticism of Israel etc

[Massagemanmr]

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Professor John Mearshimer Chicago university political scientist weekly podcast

1. What's the latest on Iran nuclear ambitions

2. Is trump getting sick of being vetoed by Israel

3. What's the next steps in the middle eastern wars

[Vice Admiral]

Would you call the riots last night whipped up by fascists, including Tommy Robinson are knee jerk 
Robinson, Farage and other extreme right wing protagonists are weaponising the killing of Henry Nowak to build up a fascist street fighting force 

Yes, I would.

Google AI defines a knee-jerk reaction as, "In everyday language, this idiom is often used in a slightly critical or negative way to describe rushed decisions or impulsive judgments. It suggests that someone acted purely on emotion or habit rather than logic."

That fits, surely? 

[DastardlyDick]

As a front line responder they are more likely to be a younger junior PC than a long in the tooth time server looking at imminent retirement...

Most coppers are always thinking about their future prospects - I know a former Chief Inspector who left the plod to work for Amazon.

[finn5555]

Yes, I would.

Google AI defines a knee-jerk reaction as, "In everyday language, this idiom is often used in a slightly critical or negative way to describe rushed decisions or impulsive judgments. It suggests that someone acted purely on emotion or habit rather than logic."

That fits, surely?

Well if AI says that it must be right 

[Vice Admiral]

Well if AI says that it must be right 

So what do you think a "knee-jerk reaction" is?  I'm genuinely puzzled!

[mills_and_bhuna]

The “far right” has unfortunately become a catch all term for anyone that disagrees with an approved set of views.

I guess I must be far-right then.
Who knew?

[Jerboa]

I guess I must be far-right then.
Who knew?

We're All Far Right Now External Link/Members Only

[mills_and_bhuna]

. Typical Russian propaganda - magnify the trivial into a false problem.

[finn5555]

So what do you think a "knee-jerk reaction" is?  I'm genuinely puzzled!

I am not disagreeing with you and would concur its a quick reaction that does not allow you time to consider something carefully.

But what Timmy and his cohorts do is use it as an excuse for violence and to attack anyone in authority or not white 

[Jerboa]

I am not disagreeing with you and would concur its a quick reaction that does not allow you time to consider something carefully.

But what Timmy and his cohorts do is use it as an excuse for violence and to attack anyone in authority or not white 

Any evidence of Tommy or others orchestrating the violence, or is there any evidence of them attacking brown folk? Nope pulled it out of your butt. 

[TallnHung]

If Farage and Yaxley Lennon gave a shit they'd be up in arms against every sort of stabbing and Paedo ring.

But, and it's a big but, they are only interested if the perpetrators are not white. That says all I need to know about them. 

I don't give a fuck if they have an opinion, valid or not.  If you align yourself with rioters rather than those who'd rather see the police officers involved be dealt with using the full force of the law (they were wrong, simple as that) and the stupid laws they have no choice but to uphold then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[finn5555]

This is also a symptom of decades of western media, society and politics blaming black , brown and Muslim being held to one standard and others to another

That is very true.

This dynamic will not change overnight and will take a lot of tolerance from all sides.

But there is a near fascist groundswell that has been brewing for years. this is fueled by Reform’s radicalism. Farage’s speeches and press conferences are a classic example, with huge promises, such as to “deport hundreds of thousands of people”, the product of surging confidence as much as scaremongering about immigrants.

Add to this right wing racists like Robinson and its plain to see why we have a constant volatile situation that is highly unstable and erupts into violence, chaos, and conflict.

This only causes division in what should be a diverse, multi-faith society albeit based on UK laws of course.

and yes all fueled by the media, and misinformation across social media.

Sad times.

[Massagemanmr]

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Which country do you think is getting all the patriots first and will continue to? a clue they're in middle east 

[Massagemanmr]

Any evidence of Tommy or others orchestrating the violence, or is there any evidence of them attacking brown folk? Nope pulled it out of your butt. 

Imagine the newspapers if this was a black, brown or muslim group ?

[Punting2022]

Imagine the newspapers if this was a black, brown or muslim group ?

Well the muslim groups cause issue in london nearly every week for palestine. What can protesting about palestine do when this is england.

[RandomGuy99]

Which country do you think is getting all the patriots first and will continue to? a clue they're in middle east 

The US.

[bigden40]

Starmer whining about politicisation of the case External Link/Members Only really lacks credibility. 

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[DastardlyDick]

Well the muslim groups cause issue in london nearly every week for palestine. What can protesting about palestine do when this is england.

The worst they do is cause a bit of a Traffic jam. TRs lot usually end up leaving a sea of beer cans and urine behind them at best - there is a reason for the TSG being deployed for their events, although, to be fair, they managed to behave last time.

[Punting2022]

The worst they do is cause a bit of a Traffic jam. TRs lot usually end up leaving a sea of beer cans and urine behind them at best - there is a reason for the TSG being deployed for their events, although, to be fair, they managed to behave last time.

They damaged a raf plane. They do the same that tr does. Tr does marches. Palestine do marches.
Only reason tr ones get violent is because police two tier starmer treats them diff.
Full riot gear for tr. For palestine they take selfies and also do the blm knee

[DastardlyDick]

They damaged a raf plane. They do the same that tr does. Tr does marches. Palestine do marches.
Only reason tr ones get violent is because police two tier starmer treats them diff.
Full riot gear for tr. For palestine they take selfies and also do the blm knee

I believe the culprits for that a currently in one of HM 3 bar hotels. TR, on the other hand, get''s a load of pissed up football hooligans - telling them to stay on the route agreed to is not winding them up.

[Massagemanmr]

The US.

have another go I'll give you some clues

1. They are starving over 2 million people and call it self defence

2. They've killed over 100k people in last 3 years

3. They actively pay off , bribe politicians from your country to act against your national interest

[Massagemanmr]

Well the muslim groups cause issue in london nearly every week for palestine. What can protesting about palestine do when this is england.

it's not as bad as the Israeli groups , they

1. Protect peadophile politicians

2. Pay off politicians to act against your country national interest costing your country billions

3. Have killed over 100k people in the last 3 years and call it self defence

We'll wait for the lame excuses 🤣
- only democracy in Middle east
- you hate Jews
- most moral army in the world
- insert other lame excuse

[Blackpool Rock]

so the far-right activist racist Tommy Robinson was among speakers who addressed the crowd outside Southampton central police station at the 'Justice for Henry Nowak' protest.

Then watched on as his patriots thugs attacked the police and people think he does good for the UK 

The leader of the far-right party Reform UK, Nigel Farage, said people should respond with "pure cold rage" to Nowak's treatment by police, calling it evidence of a "two-tier culture." so he also encouraged the pack of animals into violence 

If only we were able to look back in history to find some sort of parallel where people spoke to the poor working class and galvanised support using fear and division............

[DastardlyDick]

If only we were able to look back in history to find some sort of parallel where people spoke to the poor working class and galvanised support using fear and division............

That narrows it down to 2 options.

[Massagemanmr]

Russia and China are the BIG winners from the Iran war and continue to use Israel to deplete western resources

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[bigden40]

That is very true.

This dynamic will not change overnight and will take a lot of tolerance from all sides.

But there is a near fascist groundswell that has been brewing for years. this is fueled by Reform’s radicalism. Farage’s speeches and press conferences are a classic example, with huge promises, such as to “deport hundreds of thousands of people”, the product of surging confidence as much as scaremongering about immigrants.

Add to this right wing racists like Robinson and its plain to see why we have a constant volatile situation that is highly unstable and erupts into violence, chaos, and conflict.

This only causes division in what should be a diverse, multi-faith society albeit based on UK laws of course.

and yes all fueled by the media, and misinformation across social media.

Sad times.

In my humble opinion this is horse shit. 

It is the left that is largely responsible for sowing division in this country (and the west more broadly) not some fantasy “far right” bogeyman.

Just look at the Nowak incident.  Starmer has run with the familiar left wing playbook: condemn the reaction, manage the optics and hope the public stop noticing what caused the outrage in the first place.  Never mind that the outrage is completely justified, and that the policing of this incident was completely outrageous.

Public confidence in policing is collapsing, trust in institutions is evaporating and many people rightly suspect that ideology has replaced common sense.  This has nothing to do with the far right, or the media blaming brown people for things. It has everything to do with the actual actions and (lack of) performance of our institutions.  And that has everything to do with the advancement of of so called “progressive” ideas in this institutions. 

[DastardlyDick]

I think we can all agree that the way Henry  Nowak was treated was absolutely appalling. I've already mentioned the short comings, so I won't repeat them.
I believe one Officer has resigned, although Hampshire Police say it wasn't over this, and the others are on non public duties, which is good.
If all these politicians and media types want a proper investigation done, the best thing they can do is shut the f**k up and respect the wishes of his Family.
RIP Henry

[Jerboa]

Starmer whining about politicisation of the case External Link/Members Only really lacks credibility. 

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The word hypocrisy is not strong enough word. But it wasn't just those two clowns who took the knee in 2020 for a criminal and drug addict from America.

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[Jerboa]

I think we can all agree that the way Henry  Nowak was treated was absolutely appalling. I've already mentioned the short comings, so I won't repeat them.
I believe one Officer has resigned, although Hampshire Police say it wasn't over this, and the others are on non public duties, which is good.
If all these politicians and media types want a proper investigation done, the best thing they can do is shut the f**k up and respect the wishes of his Family.
RIP Henry

They need to shut their mouths for the sake of diversity and community cohesion right? 

[bigden40]

If only we were able to look back in history to find some sort of parallel where people spoke to the poor working class and galvanised support using fear and division............

I agree.

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[Jerboa]

Ukraine reburies Andriy Melnyk Nazi WW2 collaborator with full state honours

Zelensky is a disgrace, he has doubled down on promoting the extreme Ukrainian nationalist cause in his country, since 2014 the country has slowly revised history to make evil genocidal fascists to be national heroes.
Zelensky's own grandfather was a hero of the Soviet Union, who fought in the war, and family members were murdered by these nationalist scum, they must be turning in their graves!
Who was Andriy Melnyk? He was the leader of the OUN-M, this organisation collaberated with Nazi Germany, were employed as auxiliary policemen, who were responsible in slaughtering Jews, Poles and Russians, and much more.

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[mills_and_bhuna]

Ukraine reburies Andriy Melnyk Nazi WW2 collaborator with full state honours

Zelensky is a disgrace, he has doubled down on promoting the extreme Ukrainian nationalist cause in his country, since 2014 the country has slowly revised history to make evil genocidal fascists to be national heroes.
Zelensky's own grandfather was a hero of the Soviet Union, who fought in the war, and family members were murdered by these nationalist scum, they must be turning in their graves!
Who was Andriy Melnyk? He was the leader of the OUN-M, this organisation collaberated with Nazi Germany, were employed as auxiliary policemen, who were responsible in slaughtering Jews, Poles and Russians, and much more.

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It kind of reminds me of the Canadian parliament giving the Waffen SS guy a standing ovation and the media  going along with it.

[mills_and_bhuna]

I agree.

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Yeah. These guys should have just  shut up and accepted that autocrats and industrialists  have the right to exploit the masses.
Why couldn't they be good guys like Queen Victoria, Leopold II , Kaiser Bill and the Tsars.

[RedKettle]

Ukraine reburies Andriy Melnyk Nazi WW2 collaborator with full state honours

Zelensky is a disgrace, he has doubled down on promoting the extreme Ukrainian nationalist cause in his country, since 2014 the country has slowly revised history to make evil genocidal fascists to be national heroes.
Zelensky's own grandfather was a hero of the Soviet Union, who fought in the war, and family members were murdered by these nationalist scum, they must be turning in their graves!
Who was Andriy Melnyk? He was the leader of the OUN-M, this organisation collaberated with Nazi Germany, were employed as auxiliary policemen, who were responsible in slaughtering Jews, Poles and Russians, and much more.

External Link/Members Only
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History is rarely simple especially in that region. As well as a nazi collaboration for the Poles he was an anti Russian hero for the Ukrainians. But I am guessing you are only interested in the parts of the story that fit your agenda.

[Jerboa]

History is rarely simple especially in that region. As well as a nazi collaboration for the Poles he was an anti Russian hero for the Ukrainians. But I am guessing you are only interested in the parts of the story that fit your agenda.

His organisation went around nailing Polish kids to trees, and mass executing Jews, spare me the history is complicated BS. The Ukrainian regime is whitewashing Ukrainian history to make the nation legitimate. The majority of Ukrainians don't support these extremists from the past or the extremists of today, they just can't speak out.

Dr Marta Havryshko is a Scholar of Holocaust Studies & Ukrainian Nationalism, she is from western Ukraine where most of the Ukrainian nationalist extremism is based External Link/Members Only

[DastardlyDick]

They need to shut their mouths for the sake of diversity and community cohesion right? 

No, just Henry's family, as they asked.

[finn5555]

History is rarely simple especially in that region. As well as a nazi collaboration for the Poles he was an anti Russian hero for the Ukrainians. But I am guessing you are only interested in the parts of the story that fit your agenda.

Of course he is as Jerboa is pro Russia, just a pity he doesn't move there and save us all the pain of his rhetoric 

He would love it there 

[Jerboa]

No, just Henry's family, as they asked.

Try watching the fathers speech again, he doesn't want division, what does that term mean? It is used by politicians and the state, to stop any fair debate about the situation. The vast majority of British people, who are angry about what happened to Henry, are not targeting the Sikh community, and making them responsible for the actins of one murderous scumbag. The anger is at the police nationally and the politicians who implemented the DEI & CRT garbage into policing. Politicians like Starmer are the ones using the Nowak family as a human shield, you can't be angry and want change, as you'r being divisive, fuck him the hypocrite who took a knee in 2020 for a foreign criminal and drug addict.

[scutty brown]

It's worth reading the wiki entry External Link/Members Only)

Melnyk was obviously trying to play a balancing act between the Russians and the Germans.
The Russians had contrived a campaign of starvation against the Ukrainians during much of the 1930's (the Holodomor) resulting in deaths numbering 3-4 million. His primary mission would have been to create a resistance to the Russians - if that involved using the Germans then so be it. It would have been impossible for him to not work with the Germans - that would have resulted in extermination from both sides.
As it was, he sailed close enough to the wind to end up in a German concentration camp.
You can't just look at history from a modern perspective where things seem good or bad, black or white. He was fighting for the survival of his people, trying to prevent them going to the ovens by colluding with the Germans. Should he have refused? How many more millions would have died if he had?

[scutty brown]

Dr Marta Havryshko is a Scholar of Holocaust Studies & Ukrainian Nationalism, she is from western Ukraine where most of the Ukrainian nationalist extremism is based

Where most of the anti-Russian sentiment is based because historically fewer Ukrainians were killed there by the Russians, while the Eastern Ukraine was more subject to extermination and translocation campaigns clearing the farmland for a wave of Russian speaking immigrants.
So you end up with Ukrainians in the west, transplanted russian speaking carpet-baggers in the east
You can regard it as analogous to British efforts in Northern Ireland to clear out the catholics through murder starvation and transportation, followed by settlement by Scottish more amenable to English rule.
So where do your sympathies lie in Northern Ireland?

[bigden40]

Yeah. These guys should have just  shut up and accepted that autocrats and industrialists  have the right to exploit the masses.
Why couldn't they be good guys like Queen Victoria, Leopold II , Kaiser Bill and the Tsars.

Enjoy your logical fallacy 

[Jerboa]

It's worth reading the wiki entry External Link/Members Only)

Melnyk was obviously trying to play a balancing act between the Russians and the Germans.
The Russians had contrived a campaign of starvation against the Ukrainians during much of the 1930's (the Holodomor) resulting in deaths numbering 3-4 million. His primary mission would have been to create a resistance to the Russians - if that involved using the Germans then so be it. It would have been impossible for him to not work with the Germans - that would have resulted in extermination from both sides.
As it was, he sailed close enough to the wind to end up in a German concentration camp.
You can't just look at history from a modern perspective where things seem good or bad, black or white. He was fighting for the survival of his people, trying to prevent them going to the ovens by colluding with the Germans. Should he have refused? How many more millions would have died if he had?

the Holodomor didn't target Ukrainians, this is a modern revision of history, the communists were about equality for starving the people.

[bigden40]

Try watching the fathers speech again, he doesn't want division, what does that term mean? It is used by politicians and the state, to stop any fair debate about the situation. The vast majority of British people, who are angry about what happened to Henry, are not targeting the Sikh community, and making them responsible for the actins of one murderous scumbag. The anger is at the police nationally and the politicians who implemented the DEI & CRT garbage into policing. Politicians like Starmer are the ones using the Nowak family as a human shield, you can't be angry and want change, as you'r being divisive, fuck him the hypocrite who took a knee in 2020 for a foreign criminal and drug addict.

Broadly agree with the underlying point. 

Politicians are following the playbook, blame the people angry with the thing for noticing the thing for it is they who are being divisive. 

You are right, the anger here is primarily aimed at the police and the politicians not the Sikh community.  They are deflecting because a) that’s what they do and b) they don’t have a counter argument. 

[scutty brown]

the Holodomor didn't target Ukrainians, this is a modern revision of history, the communists were about equality for starving the people.

Four million dead wasn't targeted? Bollocks. Stalin didn't trust the Ukrainian speaking population and wanted rid of them. It's not as if the holodomor was his only mistreatment of them. Massive forced migrations into central Asia, systemic eradication of the Ukrainian Cossacks, replacement of the cleared populations by Jews displaced from Russia....all part of his massive slaughter policies

[Jerboa]

Four million dead wasn't targeted? Bollocks. Stalin didn't trust the Ukrainian speaking population and wanted rid of them. It's not as if the holodomor was his only mistreatment of them. Massive forced migrations into central Asia, systemic eradication of the Ukrainian Cossacks, replacement of the cleared populations by Jews displaced from Russia....all part of his massive slaughter policies

It wasn't just Ukrainians who were starved, Russians and other ethnicities also perished. The construction of the Ukrainian SSR was a Bolshevik priority. The majority of what is known as Ukraine today were lines drawn on a map by Lenin. They actually Ukrainianised Russian regions, like Kharkov and the Donbass that never were Ukrainian, why? So there was division and it would be easier to control.

[Jerboa]

Broadly agree with the underlying point. 

Politicians are following the playbook, blame the people angry with the thing for noticing the thing for it is they who are being divisive. 

You are right, the anger here is primarily aimed at the police and the politicians not the Sikh community.  They are deflecting because a) that’s what they do and b) they don’t have a counter argument.

Yes, I'm not a fan of Farage, but on him calling the two tier policing out, I have to commend him. And we know he is right over the target, with the amount of flak he caught in the commons, and in the media, they were more offended by Farage's speech, than that a poor lad was murdered in the street, and the police ignored his cries for help. 

[bigden40]

Yes, I'm not a fan of Farage, but on him calling the two tier policing out, I have to commend him. And we know he is right over the target, with the amount of flak he caught in the commons, and in the media, they were more offended by Farage's speech, than that a poor lad was murdered in the street, and the police ignored his cries for help. 

I don’t think Farage's tone was right at all …. but there’s too much of the media and politicians virtue signalling about Farage's words instead of addressing the issue.

[WARSZAWA16]

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