Another trafficking story in today’s papers and on Ch4 now

[daviemac]

I know exactly what they do, minds must work differently up north lol, the point being some obviously find it acceptable and not just traffickers.

Apart from traffickers who else would find it acceptable to withhold someone's passport or even be in possession of someone's passport in order to withhold it.

You quoted WW who had made it obvious he thought it wrong to withhold someone's passport so I don't know where you get the idea either he or I think it's OK.   

[Barclay Spank]

I wouldn't call that 'middle ground', I would call that clear and criminal coercion?

No one has the right to withhold your passport. No one.

I agree, but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers. I'm not just talking about sex work, I'm talking about any kind of work.

[scutty brown]

I agree, but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers. I'm not just talking about sex work, I'm talking about any kind of work.

Not in this country - unless you're talking about a modern slavery situation

[winkywanky]

I agree, but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers. I'm not just talking about sex work, I'm talking about any kind of work.

When was this?

Where was this?

We don't do that here.

[lillythesavage]

I agree, but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers. I'm not just talking about sex work, I'm talking about any kind of work.

It certainly is not, copies yes for specific reasons, most haulage companies will do that with any driving license, you have a very skewed view of what is acceptable.

[Barclay Spank]

Just give it a rest mate, you are wrong in what you think because you don't understand the difference between what is classed as illegal and what the CPS would actually prosecute, there's a world of difference between the two.

Don't tell me to give it a rest, mate. The police do prosecute drivers and security guards that are paid by sex workers. Lezlie Davies wasn't managing the brothel, he was paid to take photographs and 'sometimes helped women with lifts'. That's not managing a brothel or even assisting in the management of a brothel, but he was advised by his lawyers to admit assisting in the management of the brothel because the consequences would have been worse for him if he didn't. He had no organizational role in the brothel but in the law that still counts as 'assisting in the management'.

If you are saying that drivers and security guards don't get convicted then you are contradicting the English Collective of Prostitutes and Laura Agustin who is an expert on trafficking as quoted in New Scientist. I believe what they say and not what you say.

[Barclay Spank]

When was this?

Where was this?

We don't do that here.

I am going to try to upload an extract from The Great Betrayal by Rod Liddle which shows how badly Polish workers were treated until recently.

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Barclay Spank]

so where was Viner's share? The girl also had to pay him, presumably through inflated building rent. Viner provided the properties

These sex workers paid ten pounds to Gomes every time she found a punter for them. Viner's share came out of that. All the rest of the money they kept for themselves.

If you are saying what they are really claiming then you are all wrong.
Just the number of trafficking prosecutions in Lancashire alone in the last few years is enough to show there is a serious problem.

Most of those trafficking prosecutions will not involve coercion. The Viner case didn't involve coercion.

[winkywanky]

I am going to try to upload an extract from The Great Betrayal by Rod Liddle which shows how badly Polish workers were treated until recently.

Hidden Image/Members Only

What I'm saying is that it's illegal to withhold someone's passport in this country.

[scutty brown]

I am going to try to upload an extract from The Great Betrayal by Rod Liddle which shows how badly Polish workers were treated until recently.

Hidden Image/Members Only

I don't understand your point: that is another form of illegal modern slavery. It is not normal behaviour

[scutty brown]

These sex workers paid ten pounds to Gomes every time she found a punter for them. Viner's share came out of that. All the rest of the money they kept for themselves.

No, Viner's share came out of the inflated fees the girls were charged for accommodation and website promotion.
That would have taken most of the earnings

Most of those trafficking prosecutions will not involve coercion. The Viner case didn't involve coercion.

The cases I referred to all involved coercion of one kind or another.
In Viner's case the women appear to have been brought to the UK on false promises of marriage / relationship then on arrival coerced into escorting

[scutty brown]

Don't tell me to give it a rest, mate. The police do prosecute drivers and security guards that are paid by sex workers. Lezlie Davies wasn't managing the brothel, he was paid to take photographs and 'sometimes helped women with lifts'. That's not managing a brothel or even assisting in the management of a brothel, but he was advised by his lawyers to admit assisting in the management of the brothel because the consequences would have been worse for him if he didn't. He had no organizational role in the brothel but in the law that still counts as 'assisting in the management'.

If you are saying that drivers and security guards don't get convicted then you are contradicting the English Collective of Prostitutes and Laura Agustin who is an expert on trafficking as quoted in New Scientist. I believe what they say and not what you say.

Davies was running the online profiles and receiving payment. That means he was assisting in the management.
If he was driving them around - then that's trafficking by the strict definition of the law. Enough to get him jail time.

[daviemac]

Don't tell me to give it a rest, mate. The police do prosecute drivers and security guards that are paid by sex workers. Lezlie Davies wasn't managing the brothel, he was paid to take photographs and 'sometimes helped women with lifts'. That's not managing a brothel or even assisting in the management of a brothel, but he was advised by his lawyers to admit assisting in the management of the brothel because the consequences would have been worse for him if he didn't. He had no organizational role in the brothel but in the law that still counts as 'assisting in the management'.

If you are saying that drivers and security guards don't get convicted then you are contradicting the English Collective of Prostitutes and Laura Agustin who is an expert on trafficking as quoted in New Scientist. I believe what they say and not what you say.

You are wrong yet again. He entered a guilty plea to the charge.

Lezlie Davies, 61, and 45-year-old Rosana Gomes admitted assisting in managing the brothel

External Link/Members Only

Honestly you just don't understand the difference in what is technically against the law and what they charge someone for.

I agree, but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers. I'm not just talking about sex work, I'm talking about any kind of work.

Can you provide some official evidence of this happening and I do mean official, not some bias opinion of someone on the internet. An employer cannot legally hold an employees passport without their express consent. They can however take a copy of it when checking their eligibility to work in the UK.

Listen to what people are telling you, you are wrong on so many levels.

BTW, it isn't what I say, it's what the law and the CPS say, they are the one's who decide to charge or not. In the majority of cases if people don't 'take the piss' they are left to get on with it. Step out of line and they use the law to shut them down.

[Barclay Spank]

No, Viner's share came out of the inflated fees the girls were charged for accommodation and website promotion.
That would have taken most of the earnings

You are indulging in pure speculation again.

The cases I referred to all involved coercion of one kind or another.
In Viner's case the women appear to have been brought to the UK on false promises of marriage / relationship then on arrival coerced into escorting

That's just not true at all.

[Barclay Spank]

I don't understand your point: that is another form of illegal modern slavery. It is not normal behaviour

I'm not saying it is 'normal behaviour' for employers. It happens though. Emily Kenton the expert on trafficking writes in her book about male migrant workers 'with their identity documents and other crucial life-lines like bank cards taken from them'. So it doesn't just happen to sex workers.

[scutty brown]

You are indulging in pure speculation again.
That's just not true at all.

It is true and I'm not speculating.
The only untruths are your attempts at disguising reality. People like you who refuse to accept the reality of foreign sex workers conditions in the UK, are part of the problem. As long as fools like you continue to deny the real level of exploitation we'll never get the problem fixed

[daviemac]

I'm not saying it is 'normal behaviour' for employers. It happens though. Emily Kenton the expert on trafficking writes in her book about male migrant workers 'with their identity documents and other crucial life-lines like bank cards taken from them'. So it doesn't just happen to sex workers.

Quick question for you as you claim to know so much about the law and legalities of prostitution, how many DLOs are there in you local area.   

[scutty brown]

I'm not saying it is 'normal behaviour' for employers. It happens though. Emily Kenton the expert on trafficking writes in her book about male migrant workers 'with their identity documents and other crucial life-lines like bank cards taken from them'. So it doesn't just happen to sex workers.

but you did imply it was normal behaviour

..., but it's important to realize that it was quite common for an employer to take the passports of migrant workers

[scutty brown]

I'm not saying it is 'normal behaviour' for employers. It happens though. Emily Kenton the expert on trafficking writes in her book about male migrant workers 'with their identity documents and other crucial life-lines like bank cards taken from them'. So it doesn't just happen to sex workers.

When I Google "Emily Kenton trafficking" I get no relevant hits, which suggests she's no expert on the matter.
Got any links to her writings?

[Barclay Spank]

You are wrong yet again. He entered a guilty plea to the charge.

I know he entered a guilty plea, that's what I said. The point is that it was not his business, he wasn't organizing it. He just took money to do different jobs for Viner. He would have been prosecuted just the same if he had done the same thing for independent sex workers.

Can you provide some official evidence of this happening and I do mean official, not some bias opinion of someone on the internet. An employer cannot legally hold an employees passport without their express consent. They can however take a copy of it when checking their eligibility to work in the UK.

Well, I've given an extract from Rod Little's book and I've quoted what the trafficking expert Emily Kenway has to say. Of course it is illegal for an employer to keep the passports of migrant workers but it happens - or it used to happen before we left the EU.

It's very odd that people here are quite happy to believe a Channel 4 documentary which is trying to be a Liam Neeson movie and a Daily Mail article that not only contains mistakes but also a spelling mistake (they couldn't even be bothered to proof check it) and yet when I quote Emily Kenway the trafficking expert somehow that's not 'official'. Emily Kenway was an advisor to the UK's first Anti-Slavery Commissioner.

[Barclay Spank]

When I Google "Emily Kenton trafficking" I get no relevant hits, which suggests she's no expert on the matter.
Got any links to her writings?

Who is Emily Kenton? It's KENWAY not KENTON. That's why you're not getting any relevant hits.

[scutty brown]

Who is Emily Kenton? It's KENWAY not KENTON. That's why you're not getting any relevant hits.

read what you posted you fucking idiot.

I'm not saying it is 'normal behaviour' for employers. It happens though. Emily Kenton the expert on trafficking writes in her book about male migrant workers 'with their identity documents and other crucial life-lines like bank cards taken from them'. So it doesn't just happen to sex workers.

[Barclay Spank]

People like you who refuse to accept the reality of foreign sex workers conditions in the UK, are part of the problem. As long as fools like you continue to deny the real level of exploitation we'll never get the problem fixed

I accept the reality of ALL foreign workers' conditions in the UK. There is exploitation in all forms of work for migrant workers. The problem will not be fixed by 'taking down' or 'taking out' people like Viner. The problem will be fixed when we decriminalize prostitution but criminalize employers who don't keep their employees safe. There is no need for sex workers to be robbed or raped. That didn't happen in the well-run brothels, many of which have been closed down by the same people who want to take out people like Viner. Nobody got robbed or raped in Sandra Hankin's brothels.

[daviemac]

I know he entered a guilty plea, that's what I said. The point is that it was not his business, he wasn't organizing it. He just took money to do different jobs for Viner. He would have been prosecuted just the same if he had done the same thing for independent sex workers.

That's what you just can't understand, he would not have been prosecuted had he done it for an independent escort. You can't grasp the concept of one thing being accepted and another not. 

As an example, in my area they don't tolerate parlours that double as brothels that are accepted in other parts of the country, they will accept escort agencies as long as they don't advertise or discuss services and generally keep a low profile, those that 'take the piss' get closed down and the owners prosecuted.

I asked how many DLOs there are in your area, do you not know?   It is quite important to the debate.

[scutty brown]

It's very odd that people here are quite happy to believe a Channel 4 documentary which is trying to be a Liam Neeson movie and a Daily Mail article that not only contains mistakes but also a spelling mistake (they couldn't even be bothered to proof check it) and yet when I quote Emily Kenway the trafficking expert somehow that's not 'official'. Emily Kenway was an advisor to the UK's first Anti-Slavery Commissioner.

One book from an alternative publishing company offering an anti-establishment theory does not make her an expert.

[scutty brown]

I accept the reality of ALL foreign workers' conditions in the UK. There is exploitation in all forms of work for migrant workers. The problem will not be fixed by 'taking down' or 'taking out' people like Viner. The problem will be fixed when we decriminalize prostitution but criminalize employers who don't keep their employees safe. There is no need for sex workers to be robbed or raped. That didn't happen in the well-run brothels, many of which have been closed down by the same people who want to take out people like Viner. Nobody got robbed or raped in Sandra Hankin's brothels.

But we're discussing sex work here, not Polish builders or Vietnamese dope farmers or nail bar workers. Sex workers are what we know. And the simple fact is that even if you decriminalised the running of brothels then the number of exploited / forced foreign sex workers in the UK would not reduce. As long as women  can be tricked into coming to the UK and then forced into sex work then they will be. Slaves are far cheaper to employ.
And just remember - none of those women used by Viner could legally work here, so couldn't be employed in Hankin's brothels.
In reality places like hers are a tiny part of the overall picture and statistically almost irrelevant. What matters - for instance in Manchester - are the hundreds of foreign girls on Vivastreet, the couple of hundred or more "hidden" chinese working in the Asian brothels and parlours. Nearly all of whom work under some kind of enforcement or control.

[Barclay Spank]

As an example, in my area they don't tolerate parlours that double as brothels that are accepted in other parts of the country, they will accept escort agencies as long as they don't advertise or discuss services and generally keep a low profile, those that 'take the piss' get closed down and the owners prosecuted.

That might be true in your area but there are other areas that crack down hard on prostitution.

I asked how many DLOs there are in your area, do you not know?   It is quite important to the debate.

There is one dedicated police liaison officer to support sex workers in Merseyside.

[Barclay Spank]

But we're discussing sex work here, not Polish builders or Vietnamese dope farmers or nail bar workers. Sex workers are what we know. And the simple fact is that even if you decriminalised the running of brothels then the number of exploited / forced foreign sex workers in the UK would not reduce. As long as women  can be tricked into coming to the UK and then forced into sex work then they will be. Slaves are far cheaper to employ.
And just remember - none of those women used by Viner could legally work here, so couldn't be employed in Hankin's brothels.
In reality places like hers are a tiny part of the overall picture and statistically almost irrelevant. What matters - for instance in Manchester - are the hundreds of foreign girls on Vivastreet, the couple of hundred or more "hidden" chinese working in the Asian brothels and parlours. Nearly all of whom work under some kind of enforcement or control.

Someone earlier on this page didn't believe that some employers keep the passports of migrant workers. He wrote "When was this? Where was this? We don't do that here." So I quoted from Rod Liddle and Emily Kenway to show that we do do that here. Part of Emily's argument is that we can't treat sex work as different from any other type of work. You won't solve the problem unless you solve the whole problem of migrant labour.

Sandra Hankin only worked with British women. That came out in her trial. Other brothels such as Cuddles in Birmingham worked with women who were not entitled to work or live in the UK. The women were not raped or robbed. They were safe. Cuddles operated for years, until the police decided to start shutting down brothels. No doubt legally they were entitled to do that. That was a big mistake, which led to many rapes and robberies.

I've been to see foreign girls on Vivastreet. In Liverpool, Chester and Blackpool. The one in Blackpool was typical of them, she had a room in a cheap hotel. She worked alone and was thus vulnerable. The second time I saw the one in Chester I could tell there was someone else in the flat, I heard her talking quietly to someone. That is illegal, even if the police in certain areas choose not to enforce the law.

[Barclay Spank]

One book from an alternative publishing company offering an anti-establishment theory does not make her an expert.

Emily writes about police raids on Soho walk ups (in 2013 and 2016), in Newquay in Cornwall and in Redbridge in London. The media stated 'police rescue 15 women from pop-up brothels during Redbridge raids'. Emily made Freedom of Information requests and found that none of these 15 women had been referred to the National Referral Mechanism (NRM). This means the women did not consider themselves victims of trafficking. What's more, no Duty to Notify submissions were made. This means that the police did not consider them possible victims of trafficking either. She gives more examples of this happening.

So who are you going to believe? The newspapers and what the police tell them? This is the official line, that when the police conduct raids they rescue women. She is showing you that the official belief, coming from the police and the Home Office, is false.

[daviemac]

That might be true in your area but there are other areas that crack down hard on prostitution.

The NE is one of the stricter area of the country, other areas allow agencies to advertise services, other areas allow 'massage parlours' that double as brothels, some areas tolerate street walkers, some walk-up brothels, none of which are allowed in the NE and that list is not exhaustive.

Yet again you are showing how little knowledge you have about the sex industry so please don't respond to me, you think what you want, there's nothing more I can say to convince you of the facts.
 

[scutty brown]

Someone earlier on this page didn't believe that some employers keep the passports of migrant workers. He wrote "When was this? Where was this? We don't do that here." So I quoted from Rod Liddle and Emily Kenway to show that we do do that here. Part of Emily's argument is that we can't treat sex work as different from any other type of work. You won't solve the problem unless you solve the whole problem of migrant labour.

Any employer caught treating employees that way will be off to jail. The police investigate just as many non-sex trafficking cases as sex ones. Check records of nailbars, car washes, dope farms raided

Sandra Hankin only worked with British women. That came out in her trial. Other brothels such as Cuddles in Birmingham worked with women who were not entitled to work or live in the UK. The women were not raped or robbed. They were safe. Cuddles operated for years, until the police decided to start shutting down brothels. No doubt legally they were entitled to do that. That was a big mistake, which led to many rapes and robberies.

If they weren't entitled to live or work here then WTF were they doing here? The businesses got busted for employing illegals.
If any other business employed illegals, they'd get raided

I've been to see foreign girls on Vivastreet. In Liverpool, Chester and Blackpool. The one in Blackpool was typical of them, she had a room in a cheap hotel. She worked alone and was thus vulnerable. The second time I saw the one in Chester I could tell there was someone else in the flat, I heard her talking quietly to someone. That is illegal, even if the police in certain areas choose not to enforce the law.

How many times do you have to bee told, a  second person in the flat was not illegal

[scutty brown]

There is one dedicated police liaison officer to support sex workers in Merseyside.

I'm not convinced that's true, but if it is, maybe its because the police and council, along with the NHS pay into and support the civilian outreach / support team for sex workers. Sex work in Liverpool is seen more as a social than criminal problem - possibly to the detriment of action against the criminal trafficking gangs. Liverpool has a poor record in disrupting the trafficking gangs compared to other neighbouring authorities

[daviemac]

I'm not convinced that's true, but if it is, maybe its because the police and council, along with the NHS pay into and support the civilian outreach / support team for sex workers. Sex work in Liverpool is seen more as a social than criminal problem - possibly to the detriment of action against the criminal trafficking gangs. Liverpool has a poor record in disrupting the trafficking gangs compared to other neighbouring authorities

From what I can gather it was part of the Red Umbrella scheme set up in conjunction with Changing Lives but only ran until March 2020, it received funding of £650,000 from the Home Office.

External Link/Members Only

In 2018 Northumbria Police had 34 DLOs, not sure how many they have now but I do know of 3 for definite.

[Barclay Spank]

Yet again you are showing how little knowledge you have about the sex industry so please don't respond to me, you think what you want, there's nothing more I can say to convince you of the facts.

You could try quoting from experts, as I have done. That is the normal way of conducting a discussion. I have quoted published authors Emily Kenway, Molly Smith, Juno Mac and Laura Agustin. I have also quoted academics Gretchen Soderlund and Shelley Cavalieri, investigative journalist Nick Davis and the English Collective of Prostitutes.

Why do you think that anyone is going to believe what you say when you have got nothing to back it up?

Your method of conducting a discussion is to accuse someone of knowing nothing about the subject. Which is laughable considering I have quoted all of the above experts. I know you have linked to a couple of official sites which give generalities that tell us nothing about what is going on in the real world.

[Barclay Spank]

Any employer caught treating employees that way will be off to jail. The police investigate just as many non-sex trafficking cases as sex ones. Check records of nailbars, car washes, dope farms raided

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that it's OK to take passports from sex workers because they take them from other workers. I'm saying some people do that to migrants, and many of them will be getting away with it.

If they weren't entitled to live or work here then WTF were they doing here? The businesses got busted for employing illegals.
If any other business employed illegals, they'd get raided

Sandys Superstars didn't employ illegals. Cuddles employed some. A factory that was raided where they found 6 out of 19 workers were illegals would not be closed down.

The police will raid brothels whether they suspect illegals are there or not. They will deport illegals of course but they shouldn't pretend that they are rescuing them. They will jail men like Viner of course but they shouldn't pretend that they are helping to stop women from being raped and robbed. Just the opposite, by closing down well-run brothels and stopping women from working together they are helping to create the conditions where women get raped and robbed.

There's a debate about what is the best way to respond to trafficking. For example, on Tuesday there was a Radio 4 documentary called A Long Way From Vietnam. The Vietnamese illegal migrants work on cannabis farms, nail bars and in the service industry. No mention of prostitution in the documentary except once when a police officer said profits from cannabis farms etc could be used to set up prostitution. That's why I find it difficult to believe what you said about in Manchester there are a couple of hundred or more hidden women in Asian brothels and parlours.

The Channel 4 documentary isn't helping this debate. The police are not winning the war against trafficking - however you define trafficking - just as they aren't winning the war against drugs. There needs to be a change of policy.

How many times do you have to bee told, a  second person in the flat was not illegal

That's what you keep saying. You have nothing to back up your assertion. Unlike me. I have quoted Laura Agustin and the English Collective of Prostitutes. It is illegal if that person is being paid or is getting any kind of reward, which could be living rent free or having a reduced rent. We haven't even touched on living off immoral earnings and money laundering. Who would be in a flat with a sex worker and their client if they weren't getting some kind of reward?

I also don't like the way you wrote "Awful lot of speculation and falsity over a working girl's day" when I said that most of the time they will be watching TV, looking at her smart phone or ironing. This web page shows that what I am saying is true.
External Link/Members Only
Then you speculated that I might be a pimp or a crook, or that what I have said is 'total fabrication'. You don't know how to conduct a discussion.

[daviemac]

You could try quoting from experts, as I have done. That is the normal way of conducting a discussion.

Yet again you are showing how little knowledge you have about the sex industry so please don't respond to me, you think what you want, there's nothing more I can say to convince you of the facts.

Just to add a note, whilst I may not quote 'experts' I do speak from information given to me 'straight from the horses mouth', escort safety meeting were regularly advertised on UKE with GAP / Changing lives and the police attending. I know the police make regular visits to escorts to check on their welfare, especially ones that have had problems with punters in the past, they even visit one's that work with others. There have been several instances of escorts being stalked or harassed by members on here and I have seen copies of communications with the police in order confirm it is actually the case before they are banned. 

[scutty brown]

You could try quoting from experts, as I have done. That is the normal way of conducting a discussion. I have quoted published authors Emily Kenway, Molly Smith, Juno Mac and Laura Agustin. I have also quoted academics Gretchen Soderlund and Shelley Cavalieri, investigative journalist Nick Davis and the English Collective of Prostitutes.

Why do you think that anyone is going to believe what you say when you have got nothing to back it up?

Your method of conducting a discussion is to accuse someone of knowing nothing about the subject. Which is laughable considering I have quoted all of the above experts. I know you have linked to a couple of official sites which give generalities that tell us nothing about what is going on in the real world.

Experts?
How does someone become an "expert" in a business that's mainly clandestine, partly illegal, predominantly controlled by overseas organised criminal gangs and operates furtively? The closest to "expert" that we have are some of the more experienced members of this forum, those with more exposure to the girls who work on the front line and the pimping gangs who manage them. People like Davie have more acquired knowledge about sex work than any ivory tower post-doctorate writing a thesis according to a predetermined political bias.
Collectively, the members here are the experts. Or at least some of them are.

[scutty brown]

That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that it's OK to take passports from sex workers because they take them from other workers. I'm saying some people do that to migrants, and many of them will be getting away with it.

Look its still not clear what point you're trying to make. Holding passports is clearly illegal under several pieces of legislation, including the Gangmaster regulations. Anyone caught doing it will get prosecuted

Sandys Superstars didn't employ illegals. Cuddles employed some. A factory that was raided where they found 6 out of 19 workers were illegals would not be closed down.

As a rule employers found employing illegals gets prosecuted. Prosecution may result in closure depending on the size of the fine and what other health & safety regulations were broken

The police will raid brothels whether they suspect illegals are there or not. They will deport illegals of course but they shouldn't pretend that they are rescuing them. They will jail men like Viner of course but they shouldn't pretend that they are helping to stop women from being raped and robbed. Just the opposite, by closing down well-run brothels and stopping women from working together they are helping to create the conditions where women get raped and

Police policy is defined regionally, but most forces are so short staffed that an established brothel will only get raided if some kind of illegal activity gets reported there.
In the Hankin case the money laundering got too big to ignore.
In the Viner case a lot of the information discovered was never revealed in the TV program. That may have been done to protect witnesses or sources, or it may have been done to protect the court case. Whatever, details of Viner's relationship with the women, how he tricked them into believing they were in relationships with them, then how once they were brought to the UK and redirected to sex work were all suppressed in the program.

There's a debate about what is the best way to respond to trafficking. For example, on Tuesday there was a Radio 4 documentary called A Long Way From Vietnam. The Vietnamese illegal migrants work on cannabis farms, nail bars and in the service industry. No mention of prostitution in the documentary except once when a police officer said profits from cannabis farms etc could be used to set up prostitution. That's why I find it difficult to believe what you said about in Manchester there are a couple of hundred or more hidden women in Asian brothels and parlours.

The Vietnamese cases are difficult. Many of the "children" on the dope farms prove to be men in their 20's and often, while here illegally, are here willingly in the hope of claiming asylum. Getting to the truth in each case is damned difficult and some mistakes will inevitably be made.
The couple of hundred hidden Asians is a fairly accurate estimate based on what we know of the Chinese operating methods

The Channel 4 documentary isn't helping this debate. The police are not winning the war against trafficking - however you define trafficking - just as they aren't winning the war against drugs. There needs to be a change of policy.
That's what you keep saying. You have nothing to back up your assertion. Unlike me. I have quoted Laura Agustin and the English Collective of Prostitutes. It is illegal if that person is being paid or is getting any kind of reward, which could be living rent free or having a reduced rent. We haven't even touched on living off immoral earnings and money laundering. Who would be in a flat with a sex worker and their client if they weren't getting some kind of reward?

Something we can partially agree on. The TV series seriously downplayed many aspects of the case.  As I said above,  many aspects including Viner's personal relationships with the women were suppressed.
To be truthful it was a very benign case. If a TV program had been made of some of the Romanian or Hungarian gangs jailed over the last few years then the details would have been eye opening
Trafficking for sexual exploitation is a serious problem in this country, and while you'll never eliminate it, you can suppress it. People with your denial mindset only serve to undermine the prevention work that is done

I also don't like the way you wrote "Awful lot of speculation and falsity over a working girl's day" when I said that most of the time they will be watching TV, looking at her smart phone or ironing. This web page shows that what I am saying is true.
External Link/Members Only
Then you speculated that I might be a pimp or a crook, or that what I have said is 'total fabrication'. You don't know how to conduct a discussion.

You don't like what I say or how I say it? Well that's just tough shit. I stand by every comment

[scutty brown]

Read the report of this trial, which is much more typical of Brazilians working in the UK
External Link/Members Only

[finn5555]

Read the report of this trial, which is much more typical of Brazilians working in the UK
External Link/Members Only

Happens all over the world sadly so nothing sensational here 

[LLPunting]

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Worth skimming and reading pertinent sections for a better impression of where victims may be coming from as a proportion of the type of SPs you're choosing.

Although 50% of reported victims are sex-trafficked this proportion may be inflated because sex-work is targeted by police moreso than forced labour or illegal labour activities and note the difficulty of finding alot of forced labour because of where it can take place.  That's not to belittle the risk of encountering a sex-trafficked sex-worker, punters should be very aware that the women they meet could be coerced, regardless of apparent nationality.

[Barclay Spank]

Experts?
How does someone become an "expert" in a business that's mainly clandestine, partly illegal, predominantly controlled by overseas organised criminal gangs and operates furtively? The closest to "expert" that we have are some of the more experienced members of this forum, those with more exposure to the girls who work on the front line and the pimping gangs who manage them. People like Davie have more acquired knowledge about sex work than any ivory tower post-doctorate writing a thesis according to a predetermined political bias.
Collectively, the members here are the experts. Or at least some of them are.

Juno Mac and Molly Smith are or have been sex workers. So I believe them. The academics who I have mentioned have documented how in America Evangelical Christians managed to get passed the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act (TVPA) after which the State Department put pressure on countries around the world to combat prostitution.

They call it combating trafficking but they want to stop all prostitution whether it is voluntary or not. This has caused havoc around the world. There have been brothel raids in poor countries like Cambodia where women were detained for long periods of time in appalling conditions. Some of the brothel raids have been conducted by the International Justice Mission which is an Evangelical organisation.

They put pressure on the Japanese government to refuse visas to tens of thousands of women from the Philippines who were working in the entertainment industry, the vast majority of them were not prostitutes.

In the UK we had the 2003 Sexual Offences Act which as in America redefines trafficking to include voluntary prostitution. So although none of the prostitutes in the documentary Taken were coerced it still gets called trafficking. From 2005 onwards and especially in the 2010s the police started closing down brothels in the UK in large numbers. This is the influence of American Evangelicals.

This is all worth knowing and something that members of this forum know nothing about and apparently don't want to know about. So if you just want to cheer on the British police taking on the evil traffickers in the documentary that's up to you but I write this in the expectation that there will be someone who will read this thread who will want to look at what's going on in the background.

[bedhedred]

Evangelicals are behind a lot of attempts to conflate trafficking, sex work and pornography.

Recently a trial against Backpage collapsed because the prosecution would not stop talking about trafficking even though the defendants were not on trial for trafficking.
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There are currently attempts to stop porn on twitter and there was a furore over OnlyFans recently. You can read more about how US evangelicals are trying to ban things...
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[petermisc]

In the UK we had the 2003 Sexual Offences Act which as in America redefines trafficking to include voluntary prostitution.

Voluntary prostitution is not trafficking.  It is still legal to work as a prostitute in the UK.

From 2005 onwards and especially in the 2010s the police started closing down brothels in the UK in large numbers. This is the influence of American Evangelicals.

I can well believe that American Evangelicals have influence over what happens in the US, but what evidence is there that they have any influence over day-to-day policing in the UK?

[scutty brown]

Juno Mac and Molly Smith are or have been sex workers. So I believe them. The academics who I have mentioned have documented how in America Evangelical Christians managed to get passed the Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act (TVPA) after which the State Department put pressure on countries around the world to combat prostitution.

Contrary to what you may think, being a sex worker does NOT make someone an expert in the trade. There is no connection or correlation between working in a parlour in your home country, and being trafficked around the world. They may be former sex workers, but the seem to know little about the skin  trade

They call it combating trafficking but they want to stop all prostitution whether it is voluntary or not. This has caused havoc around the world. There have been brothel raids in poor countries like Cambodia where women were detained for long periods of time in appalling conditions. Some of the brothel raids have been conducted by the International Justice Mission which is an Evangelical organisation.

Cambodia has a major problem with underage sex workers, forced prostitution, and women being exported under false pretences - especially to China. The conditions are often those of slavery. You seem to be looking for fault in the wrong direction.

They put pressure on the Japanese government to refuse visas to tens of thousands of women from the Philippines who were working in the entertainment industry, the vast majority of them were not prostitutes.

I don't accept your statement, as Filipino women in Japan have only one use in the "entertainment industry": as comfort women. And if they didn't know that getting on the 'plane, they soon found out on arrival.

In the UK we had the 2003 Sexual Offences Act which as in America redefines trafficking to include voluntary prostitution.

Untrue

So although none of the prostitutes in the documentary Taken were coerced it still gets called trafficking.

There was coercion, for some reason it wasn't reported. However there was enough evidence within the programme to show it was there

From 2005 onwards and especially in the 2010s the police started closing down brothels in the UK in large numbers. This is the influence of American Evangelicals.

Utter absolute nonsense

This is all worth knowing and something that members of this forum know nothing about and apparently don't want to know about. So if you just want to cheer on the British police taking on the evil traffickers in the documentary that's up to you but I write this in the expectation that there will be someone who will read this thread who will want to look at what's going on in the background.

You mean you hope there is someone who will support you in your delusional fantasies.
Members of this forum know nothing about what you have to say because it's all bogus bollox