A Covid-19 vaccine at last!

[winkywanky]

Can you link to the evidence for that please. Or to be more precise point out the evidence in my medical records that suggests that would be the case or that the vaccine does not interact in a negative way with the other medication I take.   

Contraindications will have been already taken note of with the new vaccines, for example they're already saying pregnant women shouldn't take them, and also those who are severely immuno-compromised, for example those on (some types of?) Chemotherapy, or those with certain diseases. A vaccine gives your immune system a workout, if your immune system is fucked for whatever reason then it may not be a good idea.

If you were particularly worried about your own personal scenario, I would check with your GP davie, he knows all the potions you're on.

[GingerNuts]

you are wrong there - under the emergency powers that were introduced back at the begining of covid undertaking were put in to the legislation that would let them do for- sorry compulsory innoculations if required.

Here are a couple of links explaining the legislation does not allow compulsory vaccination.

External Link/Members Only

External Link/Members Only

When you come back I'll apologise if you have a link to legislation no one else seems to know about. Failing that I'll expect an apology from you for posting nonsense as fact.

[Blackpool Rock]

I don't understand what you're saying, it sounds like you're confused about the fact that some of the vaccines (including the Pfizer one) require a second jab a few wks after the first, like a 'booster'.

You certainly wouldn't take your first jab as a Pfizer for example, and then your booster as the Astra Zeneca. They're completely different vaccines and work in completely different ways 

Current thinking is that the immunity you get from a vaccine should last quite a few months or even over a year. When it's deemed necessary to be vaccinated again you might be given a different one second time around. But you would never 'mix' them.

Mmmm just wondering how long the vaccine roll out will take to get the entire population done, 6 months, 9 months, a full year 
If immunity only covers someone for say 6 months then they won't be able to keep up and we will forevermore be in a state of perpetual vaccination 

[Marmalade]

Those links don't say that compulsory vaccination is actively being considered or the UK has legislation in place allowing it as is claimed.

A) He said he won’t rule it out.
B) The Danish model shows the sort of legal device that could conceivably be used here though exceedingly unlikely. You’d show that a person was a public danger requiring quarantine. It’s a bit far fetched. A person could refuse but the government could place restrictions on that person’s freedom for the public good. The difficulty would be framing such a law.

Here’s one test case, not U.K. but works on similar principles of individual rights to refuse treatment enshrined in law.

Public health can trump individual rights

Any restriction of that right, any intrusion into the individual’s bodily integrity, would require explicit statutory authorisation. Such legislation would have to be interpreted very strictly and, wherever possible, consistently with the Bill of Rights Act.

There are examples of how this would work in practice. A recent decision from the Supreme Court of New Zealand addressed whether the fluoridation of water as a public health measure was a violation of the right to refuse medical treatment.

The court found it was. But – and it’s an important but – the court decided some public health measures could override the right to refuse medical treatment where these measures are clearly justified.

Clear justification would mean there must be a reasonable objective to compulsory vaccination that justifies the limits placed on the right to refuse medical treatment.

Such limits must be no more than are reasonably necessary to achieve the desired public health outcome, and they must be proportionate to the importance of mandatory vaccination.

[Marmalade]

You will note that I didn’t say it was provided under current legislation, merely that it is theoretically possible.

[Jonestown]

........ that the vaccine does not interact in a negative way with the other medication I take.   

MRHA have apparently noted in their emergency approval of the Pfizer vaccine:-

No interaction or contraindication studies have been performed. In the absence of compatibility studies, this medicinal product must not be mixed with other medicinal products.

[Steelworker]

Can you link to the evidence for that please. Or to be more precise point out the evidence in my medical records that suggests that would be the case or that the vaccine does not interact in a negative way with the other medication I take.   

Death rates per age group versus adverse effects in 43,000 in the trial.

Second question. Of course I can’t. I was generalising and being somewhat lighthearted that I’d be helping the other doc.

[daviemac]

Contraindications will have been already taken note of with the new vaccines, for example they're already saying pregnant women shouldn't take them, and also those who are severely immuno-compromised, for example those on (some types of?) Chemotherapy, or those with certain diseases. A vaccine gives your immune system a workout, if your immune system is fucked for whatever reason then it may not be a good idea.

If you were particularly worried about your own personal scenario, I would check with your GP davie, he knows all the potions you're on.

I was questioning Steelworker's assumption that in my case, "the risk of bad COVID result aged over 50 massively outweighs risk of taking vaccine". However I have everything in hand with regard to whether or not I have the vaccine, though I have to say it is highly unlikely I will.

[GingerNuts]

A) He said he won’t rule it out.
B) The Danish model shows the sort of legal device that could conceivably be used here though exceedingly unlikely. You’d show that a person was a public danger requiring quarantine. It’s a bit far fetched. A person could refuse but the government could place restrictions on that person’s freedom for the public good. The difficulty would be framing such a law.

Here’s one test case, not U.K. but works on similar principles of individual rights to refuse treatment enshrined in law.

A) Of course he's not going to rule it out. Compulsory vaccination could possibly be required but that's a far stretch from what's been put forward by some members.

B) The UK already has legislation for people infected with coronavirus to be medically examined, placed in isolation and have their movements restricted. All things could, in theory, be legislated for.

You will note that I didn’t say it was provided under current legislation, merely that it is theoretically possible.

In theory it could be done but that's a different matter as I was replying to someone saying it has already been done.

[Jimmyredcab]

If immunity only covers someone for say 6 months then they won't be able to keep up and we will forevermore be in a state of perpetual vaccination 

No one knows how long immunity will last, how can they at this stage. ?????

The alternative is a lifetime of social distancing and muzzles, I will take my chances and have the vaccine, if others refuse to be vaccinated I also respect that but they may find that life gets increasingly difficult.

[Jimmyredcab]

A) Of course he's not going to rule it out. Compulsory vaccination could possibly be required but that's a far stretch from what's been put forward by some members.

It’s simply not going to happen, the people will only be pushed so far, we would see civil disobedience on a scale never seen before, the 2011 London riots would seem like a day at the seaside.

[Steelworker]

I was questioning Steelworker's assumption that in my case, "the risk of bad COVID result aged over 50 massively outweighs risk of taking vaccine". However I have everything in hand with regard to whether or not I have the vaccine, though I have to say it is highly unlikely I will.

You obviously are very clear in your views on the relative risks for your particular age/condition from the virus versus any associated risk to your situation from this vaccine or other vaccine technology which seems to also be considerable. Best of luck. 

[GingerNuts]

It’s simply not going to happen, the people will only be pushed so far, we would see civil disobedience on a scale never seen before, the 2011 London riots would seem like a day at the seaside.

I'm not saying it's going to happen but it is a theoretical possibility for those who want to clutch at that straw.

[winkywanky]

Mmmm just wondering how long the vaccine roll out will take to get the entire population done, 6 months, 9 months, a full year 
If immunity only covers someone for say 6 months then they won't be able to keep up and we will forevermore be in a state of perpetual vaccination 

From what I've picked up from the usual channels, many in the scientific and health communities seem to think that eventually Covid will be a bit like the Flu, you'll have an annual jab (updated each year to deal with mutations) and the illness will be relatively mild as the ongoing herd immunity strangles the nastiness out of the virus but by bit.

In ten years' time perhaps we'll all be laughing about Covid, wondering what all the fuss was about! 

I think they're saying probably late Summer/early Autumn before we've all had access to a vaccine?

[winkywanky]

MRHA have apparently noted in their emergency approval of the Pfizer vaccine:-

No interaction or contraindication studies have been performed. In the absence of compatibility studies, this medicinal product must not be mixed with other medicinal products.

Really? Worded exactly like that?

I reckon only about 20% of the UK population doesn't take tablets for at least something, that doesn't sound right  .

[Jimmyredcab]

In ten years' time perhaps we'll all be laughing about Covid, wondering what all the fuss was about! 

I think they're saying probably late Summer/early Autumn before we've all had access to a vaccine?

I may not be around in ten years time. 

I fully expect to receive the vaccine before Easter, hopefully we’ll before Easter.

[winkywanky]

I may not be around in ten years time. 

I fully expect to receive the vaccine before Easter, hopefully we’ll before Easter.

Depends on how old you are Jimmy  . I shall probably be around the same time I think.

[winkywanky]

MRHA have apparently noted in their emergency approval of the Pfizer vaccine:-

No interaction or contraindication studies have been performed. In the absence of compatibility studies, this medicinal product must not be mixed with other medicinal products.

I found this: External Link/Members Only

After a quick scan, all I could find was that you shouldn't mix with other vaccines and that you shouldn't mix vaccines for first and second doses. That all sounds reasonable (when the different vaccines work in different ways).

And the usual stuff about the immunosuppressed, pregnant women (I don't know how normal that is for say, a flu vaccine?) and people on anti-coagulants who may presumably carry on bleeding after an intramuscular injection (that'll be nothing to do with the vaccine, that's to do with being jabbed in the muscle with a rich blood supply with a needle).

There seems to be no broad statement about not mixing with other medicinal products. Could you provide a link Jonestown?

[Chooser]

And no doubt the cheapest! At the moment, this is the Oxford one but they are struggling to get their data cockup sorted out for the approval bods! 

[WASA38]

Hoping to get my first one before Christmas. My local hospital is on the list of initial recipients and I am an octagenarian outpatient - so qualify. But am on numerous meds so am trusting that this will be no impediment.

Can't come soon enough. Hoping I'll still be up to it after nearly a year's absinence !

[Marmalade]

In theory it could be done but that's a different matter as I was replying to someone saying it has already been done.

No, you were being an argumentative toss.
I was simply contributing some legal clarification on what-if possibilities.

[Jonestown]

I found this: External Link/Members Only

After a quick scan, all I could find was that you shouldn't mix with other vaccines and that you shouldn't mix vaccines for first and second doses. That all sounds reasonable (when the different vaccines work in different ways).

And the usual stuff about the immunosuppressed, pregnant women (I don't know how normal that is for say, a flu vaccine?) and people on anti-coagulants who may presumably carry on bleeding after an intramuscular injection (that'll be nothing to do with the vaccine, that's to do with being jabbed in the muscle with a rich blood supply with a needle).

There seems to be no broad statement about not mixing with other medicinal products. Could you provide a link Jonestown?

That document would seem to be the source of the article I was referring to, in particular :-

4.5 Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction
No interaction studies have been performed.
Concomitant administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines has not been studied (see section 5.1).
Do not mix COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines/products in the same syringe.

and

6.2 Incompatibilities
In the absence of compatibility studies, this medicinal product must not be mixed with other medicinal products.

Which in the article had been taken to mean that you should not take the vaccine whilst taking other medicines, but perhaps it does only mean that you should not mix with other medicinal products in the same syringe. Professional interpretation would seem to be needed.

[Doc Holliday]

That document would seem to be the source of the article I was referring to, in particular :-

4.5 Interaction with other medicinal products and other forms of interaction
No interaction studies have been performed.
Concomitant administration of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines has not been studied (see section 5.1).
Do not mix COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 with other vaccines/products in the same syringe.

and

6.2 Incompatibilities
In the absence of compatibility studies, this medicinal product must not be mixed with other medicinal products.

Which in the article had been taken to mean that you should not take the vaccine whilst taking other medicines, but perhaps it does only mean that you should not mix with other medicinal products in the same syringe. Professional interpretation would seem to be needed.

Drug compatibility refers to mixing of drugs with each other before or whilst being administered  ... most commonly via IV infusion. It refers to possible physical/chemical reactions or incompatibilities between the two when mixed together. This is not to be confused with drug interactions, where two drugs may have adverse pharmacological actions once administered. Given that this is a pre-dosed vaccine given by IM injection there will be no need at this stage to carry out compatibility studies.

[Doc Holliday]

I was questioning Steelworker's assumption that in my case, "the risk of bad COVID result aged over 50 massively outweighs risk of taking vaccine". However I have everything in hand with regard to whether or not I have the vaccine, though I have to say it is highly unlikely I will.

Davie mine was a light hearted comment (which quick witted WW as always understood and latched onto). Steelworker's was also a light hearted follow up to mine, but he is right in general terms about risk.

However as you always seem to take it seriously, if not personally, I will now be serious also. You are quite right that we do not know your individual circumstances or have access to your medical records, but you have posted many times that you are in a high risk group. You have also posted that you keep being asked each year to have the flu vaccine but refuse by choice .. which is fine.

Given those two factors and in combination with age I would expect your GP to advise you to have the Covid vaccine, which you have indicated you will likely decline. That is your personal choice which I respect. 

[Doc Holliday]

Anyway, have a look at the top five countries and why they’re there and see what do you think...

External Link/Members Only

Interesting read thanks 

Further comment would indeed become political. The UK public enquiry when it comes will be a very thick tome!

[Doc Holliday]

That document would seem to be the source of the article I was referring to,

May I ask what the article was?

[Jimmyredcab]

Interesting read thanks 

Further comment would indeed become political. The UK public enquiry when it comes will be a very thick tome!

We love an enquiry in this country, more millions poured down the drain, I can already tell you the outcome, they will say "lessons will be learned". 

[GingerNuts]

No, you were being an argumentative toss.
I was simply contributing some legal clarification on what-if possibilities.

Good morning to you too.

[Jonestown]

May I ask what the article was?

You may:-

External Link/Members Only

[chrishornx]

Good morning to you too.

Morning Ginger

[MajorPayne]

The UK gov assumes the risk in place of Pfizer.

External Link/Members Only

Covid-19 vaccine not on this list.

[GingerNuts]

External Link/Members Only

Covid-19 vaccine not on this list.

It's to be added. Presumably an amendment to the legislation is required.

External Link/Members Only

[Doc Holliday]

You may:-

External Link/Members Only

Thanks. Clearly that is one 72 year old blogger who won't be having the vaccine when France approves it 

[winkywanky]

Drug compatibility refers to mixing of drugs with each other before or whilst being administered  ... most commonly via IV infusion. It refers to possible physical/chemical reactions or incompatibilities between the two when mixed together. This is not to be confused with drug interactions, where two drugs may have adverse pharmacological actions once administered. Given that this is a pre-dosed vaccine given by IM injection there will be no need at this stage to carry out compatibility studies.

Thanks for that clarification Doc.

This of course, is how internet rumours start and gain traction amongst the deniers. Before you know it millions of people are worried that the ointment for their piles will interact with the Covid vaccine and make their arses fall out, obviously an issue of some concern for the oldies  .

[winkywanky]

Davie mine was a light hearted comment (which quick witted WW as always understood and latched onto).

I wouldn't call myself quick-witted, I just always assume you're taking the piss? 

[winkywanky]

We love an enquiry in this country, more millions poured down the drain, I can already tell you the outcome, they will say "lessons will be learned". 

They'll also say: We are committed to...   

[Blackpool Rock]

Thanks for that clarification Doc.

This of course, is how internet rumours start and gain traction amongst the deniers. Before you know it millions of people are worried that the ointment for their piles will interact with the Covid vaccine and make their arses fall out, obviously an issue of some concern for the oldies  .

Thinking back over 30 years to when I persuaded an ex GF to go on the pill (It was the responsible thing for me to do to make sure she didn't get pregnant  ), anyway before taking it she decided to start reading all the massive leaflet that came in the box and got onto the case studies.
Well fuck me after reading all that shit about how in theory XYZ could happen as it was linked in some way to 1 person in a Million I then had all on to get her to take it as if you took it all at face value one pill was sure to kill you 
I believe there was also a proposal about 30-35 years ago to include a huge list of case studies and contraindications in things as simple as Paracetamol tablets but again if you read the blurb you'd never take one.

Sometimes you can give people too much information 

[Blackpool Rock]

We love an enquiry in this country, more millions poured down the drain, I can already tell you the outcome, they will say "lessons will be learned". 

Which is best though a public enquiry when something has been fucked up or tell people to put up and shut up while sweeping it under the carpet like China or NK etc would 

[winkywanky]

Thinking back over 30 years to when I persuaded an ex GF to go on the pill (It was the responsible thing for me to do to make sure she didn't get pregnant  ), anyway before taking it she decided to start reading all the massive leaflet that came in the box and got onto the case studies.
Well fuck me after reading all that shit about how in theory XYZ could happen as it was linked in some way to 1 person in a Million I then had all on to get her to take it as if you took it all at face value one pill was sure to kill you 
I believe there was also a proposal about 30-35 years ago to include a huge list of case studies and contraindications in things as simple as Paracetamol tablets but again if you read the blurb you'd never take one.

Sometimes you can give people too much information 

99% arse-covering. But yes, the very sensitive are often perturbed.

[Doc Holliday]

This of course, is how internet rumours start and gain traction amongst the deniers. Before you know it millions of people are worried that the ointment for their piles will interact with the Covid vaccine and make their arses fall out, obviously an issue of some concern for the oldies  .

Joking apart this is the next stage of the regulators role. The MHRA runs a yellow card scheme for the reporting of any side effects as any medicine/vaccine is rolled out in greater numbers and indeed year on year.

Having just checked they have actually already set up a special section for Covid within the overall scheme External Link/Members Only

Anyone can report, but Healthcare professionals have a duty of care to report any incidents of concern. This will in time enable better data gathering of incidences of known side effects as well as picking up any new ones.

[myothernameis]

This could be a wee bit worrying for anyone who has recently recovered from covid-19, and was covered on the bbc news

A Gp from Edinburgh, Dr Amy Small, recently caught covid-19 back in Apr, who was raising the issues longcovid symptoms

The Gp talked about the anti-bodies, and after she was tested, it has shown she dosnt have any anti-bodies for covid-19.  So the vaccine becomes more relevant to protect everyone, even the ones who have had covid-19

I suppose this might mean, after 6 months and you have recovered from covid-19, you no longer have anti-bodies to protect your self from further re-infection of covid-19, so how long will the vaccine last, and give you  protection

[winkywanky]

Joking apart this is the next stage of the regulators role. The MHRA runs a yellow card scheme for the reporting of any side effects as any medicine/vaccine is rolled out in greater numbers and indeed year on year.

Having just checked they have actually already set up a special section for Covid within the overall scheme External Link/Members Only

Anyone can report, but Healthcare professionals have a duty of care to report any incidents of concern. This will in time enable better data gathering of incidences of known side effects as well as picking up any new ones.

 

[Marmalade]

A bit more on 'mix' (not exactly mixing, just having two or more different ones, mix-and-match) ...
External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

A bit more on 'mix' (not exactly mixing, just having two or more different ones, mix-and-match) ...
External Link/Members Only

Blimey, that really surprises me. But then again I'm not a doctor! 

I'd have thought an individual vaccine wouldn't be able to do its thing properly unless it had its second jab? But mixing two vaccines which work in completely different ways, as first and second jabs?

First thing I thought was perhaps this is driven by logistics and supplies, especially with the Pfizer jab being such a pain to store and transport. But apparently not?

Kate Bingham, who chairs the vaccine task force, said: "It's an established process.

"It's not being done because of supplies."

[winkywanky]

I was a little shocked to see this morning, the first person to receive the vaccine left hospital down a narrow corridor crowded with applauding health staff, all cheering and whooping, on BOTH sides. Must have been about 30 people. All with masks on of course, but we all know the risks of crowded places and noisy people. Really bloody surprised at that 

Of course the woman won't have any protection for about another month, 2nd jab in three weeks and then about a week for protection to be complete.

Wouldn't it be quite tragic if she were to catch Covid in the meantime?

[daviemac]

I was a little shocked to see this morning, the first person to receive the vaccine left hospital down a narrow corridor crowded with applauding health staff, all cheering and whooping, on BOTH sides. Must have been about 30 people. All with masks on of course, but we all know the risks of crowded places and noisy people. Really bloody surprised at that 

Of course the woman won't have any protection for about another month, 2nd jab in three weeks and then about a week for protection to be complete.

Wouldn't it be quite tragic if she were to catch Covid in the meantime?

You think that's bad, yesterday they sent a camera crew to interview the couple who were going to be the first in the NE to be vaccinated, so much for them avoiding unnecessary contact with others prior to them actually being vaccinated.

As an aside, there's a free 4 month supply of a daily vitamin D supplement available from January for those that qualify. 

[Jimmyredcab]

Of course the woman won't have any protection for about another month, 2nd jab in three weeks and then about a week for protection to be complete.

Wouldn't it be quite tragic if she were to catch Covid in the meantime?

Not for the anti-vaxxers, they are already wishing her dead on Facebook, there are some truly sick people out there.

[winkywanky]

Sadly true  .

[The Film Director]

Not for the anti-vaxxers, they are already wishing her dead on Facebook, there are some truly sick people out there.

If I may, CUNTS.

[Hobbit]

If I may, CUNTS.

No, they're worse than CUNTS. They're selfish, sick CUNTS.