2nd national lockdown rules

[Gordon Bennett]

Over the past week Covid rates dropped in the Liverpool City Region. Obviously this was first place that went into tier 3 on 14th October so maybe this suggests these measures do work. If folks adhere to the spirit of "stay at home" for 4 weeks I'd hope that large chunks of us will be allowed to come out of the stringent measures and go into a tier appropriate to the Covid levels at that point. Suppose it all boils down to how the great British public behaves in coming weeks.

[Chorley]

Over the past week Covid rates dropped in the Liverpool City Region. Obviously this was first place that went into tier 3 on 14th October so maybe this suggests these measures do work. If folks adhere to the spirit of "stay at home" for 4 weeks I'd hope that large chunks of us will be allowed to come out of the stringent measures and go into a tier appropriate to the Covid levels at that point. Suppose it all boils down to how the great British public behaves in coming weeks.

So we're basically fucked then? 

[JontyR]

I note that there is a line of thought which is about "what's different between this and all the other diseases which kill?"

Well the answer to that is this...none of the other diseases on their own have situations where the hospitals don't have the capacity to treat them and physicians have to make decisions about who gets treatment and who doesn't. Oh and in the full view of the media.

That was the potential situation in the Spring, it is now a potential situation again. People dying is bad enough, people dying in the UK on a trolley in a corridor without access to effective treatment whilst their families have to sit at home is the kind of thing which may not bring down a government, but may cost an election.

All the pushing over many years of governments of all colours towards improving hospital efficiency have lead to fewer beds and fewer staff but supposedly more effective procedures which includes pushing people back out as quickly as possible to allow for greater use of beds. The impact of this on care homes in the early stages of the pandemic may seem very clear now, but the systems set up don't have a new pandemic in mind when they are being planned. 


To say lockdown was not effective the first time is not true, the rates of infection fell massively.  If we had had an effective track and trace system in place it would have worked even better and we may have been in a position to avoid the latest glut of new cases.

My guess, and it is a guess, is that with the possible exception of a lightening of some mixing within houses at Christmas, that we will still have significant restrictions in place until at least the end of January.

What is not a guess, is that the message will need to be put out there that the further significant rise in cases and deaths that will be seen over the next fortnight is to be expected. The impacts of lockdown won't realistically be seen until the back end of November.

[scutty brown]

Over the past week Covid rates dropped in the Liverpool City Region. Obviously this was first place that went into tier 3 on 14th October so maybe this suggests these measures do work. If folks adhere to the spirit of "stay at home" for 4 weeks I'd hope that large chunks of us will be allowed to come out of the stringent measures and go into a tier appropriate to the Covid levels at that point. Suppose it all boils down to how the great British public behaves in coming weeks.

I dunno where you got that from, but it doesn't seem to tally with the daily reports we see.
What is certain is that the hospital bed situation is dire, with high dependancy wards full, and numerous non-covid wards having to close to new patients due to covid outbreaks

[scutty brown]

........... My guess, and it is a guess, is that with the possible exception of a lightening of some mixing within houses at Christmas, that we will still have significant restrictions in place until at least the end of January. ...........

Realistically I'd say this is going to be with us until the weather starts improving at the end of April
Then hope we get a  vaccine, otherwise we'll have to do it all again October next year

[sadolddeejay]

Not the same as the first lockdown as all schools and university’s remain open. All factories and building sites he wants open as well. This virus must only spread socially. Poor Supermarket staff got to keep working for low pay and you don’t hear them complaining unlike teachers who are permanently winging how unsafe it is when they’re in a much safer position than the check out person.

Infant school teachers are definitely NOT in a safer position than supermarket staff. Getting early years children to socially distance from each other is impossible, and teachers want there to be a nice class atmosphere, without over the top discipline, so take a soft approach. Many of the kids can't wipe their own arses or wash their hands properly, which means it's down to the teachers. And when little Aidan or Sian falls over, is crying and needs comforting, most teachers are not going to just stand there and let them get on with it, but are risking their health by giving them a little hug. I am aware of many teachers having had to isolate after testing positive. Schools are a hotbed of infection.

[chrishornx]

I dunno where you got that from, but it doesn't seem to tally with the daily reports we see.
What is certain is that the hospital bed situation is dire, with high dependancy wards full, and numerous non-covid wards having to close to new patients due to covid outbreaks

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[Hobbit]

My post wasn't directed at you specifically. If it had been I would have quoted your post so wind your neck in.

Fine. It seemed like an unfounded comment anyway.

[Adoniron]

Fine. It seemed like an unfounded comment anyway.

Its not unfounded. There are plenty of people on twitter who claim to be concerned about mental health but are just using it as an argument against public health restrictions. They didn't care about mental health or suicides caused by the recession or austerity.

[sir wanksalot]

Schools are a hotbed of infection.

I agree. Infections started to rise again in early September. Could be a coincidence, maybe not.

[Digby232]

All those mums sitting around at Costa after dropping kids off at school also not helped. In my town their outside the coffee shops in big groups smoking with no social distancing. Blame the schools or the parents who got fuck all to do all day now as kids gone so can all go out till time to pick them up! The ones I know can’t work or would lose their benefits which are more than a little job would pay even if could get one.

[petermisc]

Where was it reported? 

I heard it on Radio 4, may have been More or Less.  They were reporting that while rates had increased in girls, they had decreased more in boys, so the total had dropped.  While there were a significant number suffering depression and anxiety due to Coronovirus, this had been more than offset by the reduction in those suffering due to bullying and other such factors they were no longer subject to during lockdown.

[mh]

parlours to be shut and travel for a punt in a stranger's house a legal problem

If someone travels to work in your house that's still OK. But sex outside of a "stable relationship" is probably not allowed. Perhaps just domination/BDSM in your own home is OK as long as there's no penetration? Perhaps a TV journo can ask for clarification for us at the next press conference?
 

[Hobbit]

I heard it on Radio 4, may have been More or Less.  They were reporting that while rates had increased in girls, they had decreased more in boys, so the total had dropped.  While there were a significant number suffering depression and anxiety due to Coronovirus, this had been more than offset by the reduction in those suffering due to bullying and other such factors they were no longer subject to during lockdown.

If this is based on the previous lockdown then kids were not at school and therefore were not being bullied, unless they were being bullied online.

The media nowadays have very poor journalists that write anything to keep their jobs rather than actually writing something factual and based on research and evidence.

I wouldn't believe everything you read or see on TV.

[maxxblue]

I heard it on Radio 4, may have been More or Less.  They were reporting that while rates had increased in girls, they had decreased more in boys, so the total had dropped.  While there were a significant number suffering depression and anxiety due to Coronovirus, this had been more than offset by the reduction in those suffering due to bullying and other such factors they were no longer subject to during lockdown.

I think you are mistaken. For example:

"Nationally, in England, the model predicts that up to 10 million people (almost 20% of the population) will need either new or additional mental health support as a direct consequence of the crisis. 1.5 million of those will be children and young people under 18."

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[Horizontal pleasures]

If someone travels to work in your house that's still OK. But sex outside of a "stable relationship" is probably not allowed.
 

I suppose a 'stable relationship' means Christmas, away in a manger and all that?

[lostandfound]

I suppose a 'stable relationship' means Christmas, away in a manger and all that?

Or having your way in a minger?

Errm ... 

[Horizontal pleasures]

Or having your way in a minger?

Errm ... 

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[daviemac]

This shouldn't need to be posted but it seems some just can't help themselves, either that or they are just too thick to understand the the Prime Minister is a political figure and labour are a political party.


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[Hobbit]

Does anyone know for sure if hotels are open during this lockdown and what checks they may be doing?
I called up a hotel to ask and they said that hotels are open for people that are travelling for work purposes and that you just need to bring a letter for evidence.

So, the question is, do they verify that by contacting your workplace, or do they just accept the letter without any verification? Or is it much more complex?

It seems It is different this time around where the previous lockdown they were only open for key workers.

[mh]

I called up a hotel to ask and they said that hotels are open for people that are travelling for work purposes and that you just need to bring a letter for evidence.

So, the question is, do they verify that by contacting your workplace, or do they just accept the letter without any verification? Or is it much more complex?

Hotels may be covering their arses with such an answer - after all you could be a journo calling! If they accept a booking without "a letter" and you turn up without one they can hardly insist on it and I don't believe they would turn you away if you declare you're there on business. It is just that the business you are doing is a cash transaction for services rendered in the room...

[JontyR]

Like so many of these matters of seeking compliance are really ineffective. If anyone wants to make an error in their phone number when track and tracing, or claim self employment when travelling to a hotel can.


Not condoning the behaviour, but do any of the extra methods actually achieve what they want to? Those who want to be compliant will anyway, those who don't won't. The Plod are so over stretched they aren't going to check.

[Hobbit]

Hotels may be covering their arses with such an answer - after all you could be a journo calling! If they accept a booking without "a letter" and you turn up without one they can hardly insist on it and I don't believe they would turn you away if you declare you're there on business. It is just that the business you are doing is a cash transaction for services rendered in the room...

No, they knew I wasn't a journalist as they recognised me from previous, so I don't think they were making it up. My only concern was whether they would actually contact your workplace to verify as that would not be good.

[ulstersubbie]

If they accept a booking without "a letter" and you turn up without one they can hardly insist on it and I don't believe they would turn you away if you declare you're there on business

The problem would be a jobsworth receptionist, no mate you don't have a letter, you ain't staying the night!

[mh]

My only concern was whether they would actually contact your workplace to verify as that would not be good.

Just give them your punting phone number as being the current office contact number since everyone is working from home and make sure it is on silent...

[Horizontal pleasures]

Surely it the lady you are visiting who is working ... ?

[Marmalade]

Does anyone know for sure if hotels are open during this lockdown and what checks they may be doing?
I called up a hotel to ask and they said that hotels are open for people that are travelling for work purposes and that you just need to bring a letter for evidence.

I saw one travel company offering "work from home" holdays in St Lucia, Basically get on a flight quickly and they will help to arrange facilities for you to work-from-home there. Nice. Quite expensive though.

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[Marmalade]

Most recent report I could find was from 2017, about £70 for p4p in British money. Sounds so nice, I'm almost tempted. "Prostitution illegal. Buying sex legal. Prostitution is illegal but tolerated. Prostitution laws rarely enforced."

BA offering direct flights from London in November for under £500 return.
You need a negative test result before boarding.
Travel from Scotland is unfortunately more complicated  – flight changes and big price hike.

But, fuck me, does it look nice or what??!

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[Hobbit]

I saw one travel company offering "work from home" holdays in St Lucia, Basically get on a flight quickly and they will help to arrange facilities for you to work-from-home there. Nice. Quite expensive though.

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Very interesting. Thanks. I guess that answers my question.

[JamesKW]

Does anyone believe it will be only 4 weeks?

Book your small turkeys now, and free the big birds

The indication at the moment in the City is that it wont be like the first lockdown,from mid March to July there was pretty much no one here,it didnt really take off until early September.Then the Govt. advised wfh again,however alot ignored this advice and yesterday was the busiest I have seen it for a long time.I get the gist that alot are bored with wfh and alot will continue to work over the lockdown period.

[myothernameis]

It looks like Scotland might about to be heading in to a full lockdown, so they can make use of the furlough scheme

[JamesKW]

I also see no logic virus wise in wanting kids and uni students to continue to attend, they might not get the virus themselves but might well pass it on to their family. and Teachers like my sons partner have to risk it. I know Boris etc don't want kids and students to lose out on their education but I think this is a flawed idea.

An educated population is more important than ever,the quality of education on line is pretty poor at the moment(from what I hear from members of my family at university),also students wfh are easily distracted from education and also distract their parents wfh.Personally I dont think the young should have to lose out for the old.

[petermisc]

An educated population is more important than ever,the quality of education on line is pretty poor at the moment(from what I hear from members of my family at university),also students wfh are easily distracted from education and also distract their parents wfh.Personally I dont think the young should have to lose out for the old.

Losing a year or so's education isn't going to harm anyone.  When I was young, most people got two years less education than now anyway (school leaving age was 14 back then).

[houseboot]

Losing a year or so's education isn't going to harm anyone.  When I was young, most people got two years less education than now anyway (school leaving age was 14 back then).

Now we understand   

You have proved your point   

We need to keep the young in school       

[Prophet 999]

So the updated lockdown guidelines now adapt to say massage parlours and close contact services are prohibited in establishments but now also not permitted in others people's homes.....

They know the rub of the green

[threechilliman]

Losing a year or so's education isn't going to harm anyone.  When I was young, most people got two years less education than now anyway (school leaving age was 14 back then).

I thought keeping kids in school was extremely important as whatever they lose now, they carry forward forever. But considering my friends and acquaintances, there isn't much correlation between academic ability and how well they've done for themselves. There's a much stronger link between character and achievement.....

[mh]

Losing a year or so's education isn't going to harm anyone.

I read this week that one study since schools returned determined that children in one age group were 20 months behind where they were predicted to have been. In other words it wasn't so much as pressing "pause" with them out of school, but rewind...

I can see why that would be, but also I'd have thought that it would take the full 20 months to catch up. But it could definitely be a lot longer than the time they actually missed in school.

[mr.bluesky]

Surely this should this be posted in the general discussion section not the west midlands as it applies nationally 

[JontyR]

There was a very good case for linking a lockdown to half term.
But there was a further very good case for not having half term at all. The impact on delivery of education (particularly in early years) by holidays is significant. If there was an education system being designed today it wouldn't have the structure of anything like we actually have.

There's a further case to say that we should there be a further extension to lockdown it should link in with schools christmas closing. But the chances of that happening (the linking not the lockdown) are very slim as the populists voices are getting stronger.

[Adoniron]

The schools will be closed soon anyway due to the number of staff who have tested positive or are self-isolating. 14 primary schools in my area are closed due to staff shortages.

[unclepokey]

I seem to be lucky as a driver for a charity taking folk to hospitals and surgeries for their appointments. It's a reasonable excuse to be out and about. (But I'm taking my pistol thermometer with me - not for the patient you understand)

[Donnie69]

I'm wondering how easy it will be to get a hotel for a punt?

I could easily produce a fake business letter.

The other option would be for a regular prossie to come to my house. She even offered to do some cleaning.

[houseboot]

Surely this should this be posted in the general discussion section not the west midlands as it applies nationally 

   now moved

[myothernameis]

The schools will be closed soon anyway due to the number of staff who have tested positive or are self-isolating. 14 primary schools in my area are closed due to staff shortages.

Really surprised schools, colleges and university are being allowed to stay open, surely there just at risk as everyone else

It looks like school kids are just as likely to get ill with covid-19, as a report from the usa, a 13 yr old died after contracting covid-19

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[funfungoodguy]

 The official wording is;
"2. Meeting others safely
In general, you must not meet people socially. However, you can exercise or meet in a public, outdoors space with people you live with, your support bubble (or as part of a childcare bubble), or with one other person. You should minimise time spent outside your home. When around other people, stay 2 metres apart from anyone not in your household - meaning the people you live with - or your support bubble. Where this is not possible, stay 1 metre apart with extra precautions (e.g. wearing a face covering).
You must not meet socially indoors with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble.
A support bubble is where a household with one adult joins with another household. Households in that support bubble can still visit each other, stay overnight in each other’s households, and visit outdoor public places together.
[Guidelines for outdoor meeting not shown here as presumably irrelevant other than maybe Dogging but two metres apart not much fun]
4. Businesses and venues
Businesses and venues which must close
To reduce social contact, the Government has ordered certain businesses and venues to close or restrict how they provide goods and services. These include:
Personal care facilities such as hair, beauty, tanning and nail salons. Tattoo parlours, spas, massage parlours, body and skin piercing services must also close. It is also prohibited to provide these services in other peoples’ homes"
--
So that appears to have made working as or visiting a sex worker illegal after the cut-off date of 5th November, presumably leaving both provider and client at risk of prosecution.
- You can't see a friend indoors (as she is not likely to be in your support bubble), nor can she visit you for the same reason.
- Massage parlours must close - so presumably running one even alone or going to one, is a breach of that rule, if you go to one you are at a forbidden establishment.
- Providing the services of a massage parlour at someone else's home is forbidden, so the sex worker cannot do an outcall.
Although not actually stating 'Prostitution'  I suspect the general public are meant to read that for 'Massage Parlour'.
So that would appear to have made providing and using prostitution illegal.

[welshpunter17]

Wales is out of Lockdown on Monday so I'm hoping for a good choice of ladies coming this side of the Bridge

[lostandfound]

I thought keeping kids in school was extremely important as whatever they lose now, they carry forward forever. But considering my friends and acquaintances, there isn't much correlation between academic ability achievement and how well they've done for themselves. There's a much stronger link between character and achievement .....

OTOH maybe there's a link between character and academic achievement. At least worth considering as a hypothesis.

[daviemac]

Surely this should this be posted in the general discussion section not the west midlands as it applies nationally 

No. it belongs here in the already running 2nd lockdown rules thread.   

[Marmalade]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me the schools and unis thing is another example of British people’s determination not to adapt. They protest that things aren’t as they’ve always been and then protest and complain instead of adapting to change.

Most kids have a computer these days Uni students almost certainly do. Many people working from home log on and log off for work periods. Teaching timetables could be organised similarly, and include sessions of tutored home exercise. It isn’t that big of a thing to work out.

Instead there’s this hangdog attitude of ‘no-one has told us’, ‘we’ve not been told’, ‘they haven’t said we can do that’. It seems pretty pathetic tbh.

[RedKettle]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me the schools and unis thing is another example of British people’s determination not to adapt. They protest that things aren’t as they’ve always been and then protest and complain instead of adapting to change.

Most kids have a computer these days Uni students almost certainly do. Many people working from home log on and log off for work periods. Teaching timetables could be organised similarly, and include sessions of tutored home exercise. It isn’t that big of a thing to work out.

Instead there’s this hangdog attitude of ‘no-one has told us’, ‘we’ve not been told’, ‘they haven’t said we can do that’. It seems pretty pathetic tbh.

Surprisingly many youngsters do not have access to a laptop, they tend to do everything on a smartphone which is not really suitable for school work. Many family laptops were being used by parents working at home. I know some schools let kids take home school computers to help.