Electric Cars

[Gordon Bennett]

Anyone actually got one? Any regrets or buyer's remorse or is it everything you hoped for?

I like the look of the new Honda one but don't think I'm quite ready to take the plunge.

If anyone is worried about compromising their anonymity, just tell us about your mate's one

[notcalledchris]

Some of them look tempting.  I'm put off buying one at the moment by the knowledge that if I keep my diesel going for another five years by that time electric cars will be cheaper and with longer ranges.  But if everyone thought like me that would happen.

[Blackpool Rock]

Anyone actually got one? Any regrets or buyer's remorse or is it everything you hoped for?

I like the look of the new Honda one but don't think I'm quite ready to take the plunge.

If anyone is worried about compromising their anonymity, just tell us about your mate's one

What the Honda e

Looks quite quirky, a bit like the old Civic from the 80's



Hidden Image/Members Only

[Kev40ish]

There are obviously tax benefits being offered for electric cars if you use the salary sacrifice scheme.

I am not sure this is enough to persuade people to move over to them though

[Blackpool Rock]

Some of them look tempting.  I'm put off buying one at the moment by the knowledge that if I keep my diesel going for another five years by that time electric cars will be cheaper and with longer ranges.  But if everyone thought like me that would happen.

I'm the same, my current car is actually quite old now but a Jap Diesel so bullet proof, i'm hoping it will go another 10 or 15 years before something goes terminal and I have to scrap it.

Electric is OK for town and shopping but if you need to drive over 200 miles then who the fuck wants to stop and recharge adding god knows how long to the journey, only a matter of time until there aren't enough charging points in service stations and you queue for 2 hours to get charged so that you can drive another 2 hours and recharge etc.

Just looked and that new Honda e does 0-60 in 8.3 seconds which is quite impressive but only has a maximum range of up to 137 miles which is crap.
If you realistically get 100 miles then assuming you're fully charged when setting off then to drive say 350 miles you need to charge another 3 times on the way (possibly 4 times depending on range anxiety and where the next charging point is) and again when you get there 
31 minutes minimum charge time plus the time to exit the motorway and rejoin etc and your adding an extra 2-3 hours onto a normal 5 hour journey.

For the timebeing i'm out until they can do 400 miles on a charge

[Gordon Bennett]

I was bedazzled by Honda's wing "mirrors" I think (they're actually rear facing cameras!).... these sensible posts have helped me recover my composure and accept that £30K for nice mirrors is a hard one to justify.
I think 200 mile range is good enough for me, some models are now doing that but I don't like their mirrors. I was quite taken with a little Smart FourTwo electric but they only do 80 miles which is ridiculous! Those tiny Smart cars were initially designed and developed to be electric cars but the battery technology didn't keep pace with their planning so they ended up bunging a combustion engine in the boot instead. Given it was meant to be electric it's bizarre how today it's virtually unsellable as an E-car with such a poxy range compared to every other model out there.

[threechilliman]

For the timebeing i'm out until they can do 400 miles on a charge

Same here. That 400+ miles has to ne a realistic range as well, not the manufacturers figure which tend to be fantasy.

[Strawberry]

I know a few hybrid owners who are happy enough to buy again, but no pure electric owners yet.

[threechilliman]

I know a few hybrid owners who are happy enough to buy again, but no pure electric owners yet.

A hybrid I would consider as my commute would be covered by the battery.

[lostandfound]

A hybrid I would consider as my commute would be covered by the battery.

IMO that's exactly the appeal of them. Can still do the long trips on the petrol / diesel engine.

[Blackpool Rock]

And sod having to wait 30 minutes to recharge 3 or 4 times in a service station on a long trip, I did suggest to someone a couple of years ago that it would be a great idea to have a standard battery size or possible a few different sizes which were interchangeable between all cars where you drive in and do a battery exchange for a fully charged one 

Of course that would mean the manufacturers actually agreeing with each other on what size / spec they would be and then designing cars so they could be taken out and replaced easily so it's not going to happen a bit like VHS Vs Betamax and DVD Vs Bluray etc etc
Then of course Tesla would do their own thing anyway 

[lostandfound]

Well at the moment the batteries are very expensive and so keeping spares on standby would tie up a lot of capital. Also they're in short supply, not enough of them being made.

Interchangeable batteries have been tried but, as you say, in a free market difficult to implement. China has said it is going to enforce standard sizing to allow interchangeability. As an autocratic regime maybe they will succeed.

Lots of ongoing projects in this area. One idea is to use liquid batteries and for electric filling stations to have charged electrolyte store in tanks. You pull up in your car and the discharged liquid electrolyte is emptied out from your battery and replaced with freshly charged.

[Blackpool Rock]

A hybrid I would consider as my commute would be covered by the battery.

Yeah hybrid is a good compromise but due to be banned in 2035 (only 15 years time) along with the sale of new petrol and diesel only models.

Boris & co need to get their fucking skates on planning the infrastructure to cope with everything, last time I heard our energy network simply couldn't cope with the extra electricity demand required if everyone converted to electric cars.
I believe they have also taken away certain incentives for green energy like people having solar panels etc however reports have suggested that this is the way to go in the future ie have lots of small things such as solar panels on houses all contributing a small amount to the grid rather than build massive new power stations which take years to come on stream.

Still i'm sure it's all in hand just like the forward planning of PPE and testing for CV19 

[Blackpool Rock]

Well at the moment the batteries are very expensive and so keeping spares on standby would tie up a lot of capital. Also they're in short supply, not enough of them being made.

Interchangeable batteries have been tried but, as you say, in a free market difficult to implement. China has said it is going to enforce standard sizing to allow interchangeability. As an autocratic regime maybe they will succeed.

Lots of ongoing projects in this area. One idea is to use liquid batteries and for electric filling stations to have charged electrolyte store in tanks. You pull up in your car and the discharged liquid electrolyte is emptied out from your battery and replaced with freshly charged.

Yeah there are a lot of issues but logically things will get better once the free market forces take over.
I did say to someone that the current issues with all electric cars are basically the same as when petrol cars first appeared and you had to go to a chemist to buy fuel 
Over time businessmen cottoned on to the fact they could make money by storing and selling petrol so filling stations popped up and expanded with the road network.
Previously people didn't think they could ever get past either walking or using a horse and cart 

[cunningman]

Interchangeable batteries have been tried but, as you say, in a free market difficult to implement. China has said it is going to enforce standard sizing to allow interchangeability. As an autocratic regime maybe they will succeed.

Notwithstanding your comment on electrolyte, I think this would also require that the batteries are owned centrally.  Currently, if you wear your battery down, its on you.  Yo'be pissed if you take a battery in that's good for 400 miles and it was swapped for one that has degraded to 300.

I do understand that degradation in Prius cabs wasn't as bad as expected, albeit hybrids.

External Link/Members Only

[lostandfound]

Notwithstanding your comment on electrolyte, I think this would also require that the batteries are owned centrally.  Currently, if you wear your battery down, its on you.  Yo'be pissed if you take a battery in that's good for 400 miles and it was swapped for one that has degraded to 300.

I do understand that degradation in Prius cabs wasn't as bad as expected, albeit hybrids.

External Link/Members Only

A good point. Though I guess there might be schemes whereby your main financial interest is in the car, without the battery. PCP etc already popular so maybe it could work though that kind of scheme?

Renault tried for interchangeable batteries, and they also sell cars on this model, whereby you have the option to only own the car, and rent / lease the battery.

PS Looks like Renault have stopped doing this - maybe just stopped in the UK. I do remember reading a lot of criticism of the idea of not owning the battery. External Link/Members Only

[lostandfound]

Just seen a Polestar 2 for the first time, parked up nearby.

Hidden Image/Members Only

Looked ace with metallic paint and performance pack, but £53K OTR in that spec.

[cunningman]

Renault tried for interchangeable batteries, and they also sell cars on this model, whereby you have the option to only own the car, and rent / lease the battery.

I never understood the rationale for that - the lease was by time, not by usage (whether miles done or recharge cycles).

The vehicle has a simple drivetrain and should be a good candidate for someone who wants cheap local motoring and doesn't do mega miles, so you'd expect low wear and to hold the vehicle until it fell to bits.  But that pattern was penalised.

[lostandfound]

I never understood the rationale for that - the lease was by time, not by usage (whether miles done or recharge cycles).

The vehicle has a simple drivetrain and should be a good candidate for someone who wants cheap local motoring and doesn't do mega miles, so you'd expect low wear and to hold the vehicle until it fell to bits.  But that pattern was penalised.

That does seem unfair, as all the car lease deals I've seen go up pro rata with mileage.   

[magpie252]

There are obviously tax benefits being offered for electric cars if you use the salary sacrifice scheme.

I am not sure this is enough to persuade people to move over to them though

The benefits of electric are huge when you start at total cost of ownership:-

0% BIK company car tax this year (rising to 1% next year & 2% the year after)
(The average Co2 value for vehicles last yer was 120 g/km - which incurs 27% BIK for a petrol vehicle, 31% for a non RDE2 compliant diesel)

100% discount on the London congestion zone (and other zones are coming to a city near you soon)

£0 road tax

260 mile range = ~£10 electricity cost

Reduced servicing costs - no oily moving parts to maintain

For businesses, 100% 1st year write off of the purchase price against your corporation tax

[lostandfound]

Couple of interesting items on EVs -

Tesla "battery day" happened yesterday. Interesting but all jam tomorrow, which is why the TSLA share price dipped afterwards. Presentation is on Youtube and many media reports.

Presently Tesla uses batteries from Panasonic, LG, and CATL (the last because EVs made in China have to use Chines made batteries).

They plan to supplement their external battery supply by developing mass scale battery production in house and in doing so innovate by streamlining manufacture and making the battery a structural component of the car, and gain efficiency by scaling their battery cells up from 21 * 70mm, to 46 * 80 mm with a novel internal structure intended to ease manufacture and boost efficiency.

Lots of difficulties to overcome in attempting to bring these batteries to mass production, but Elon was optimistic.

Secondly an oil company published a global survey of motorists. The British motorists surveyed expected a 276 mile range, recharging to take no longer than refuelling an ICE car, a price of £22.5 K, and for EVs to be a mainstream choice by 2033.

External Link/Members Only

Closest to that spec is a Kia e-niro which is currently £37k (before £3K grant). But a "quick charge" to 80% capacity would give a 240 mile range, and that takes 54 minutes. So quite a gap between what the consumer wants and what is available. Battery prices have been plateauing in the last few years, and the battery is the most expensive component of an EV.

On the basis of this survey purchase price and recharge time appear to be obstacles to EV adoption.

[DastardlyDick]

Weren't Tea!a experimenting with battery changing stations where you drove up and robots unscrew the discharged battery, slide it away for charging, and attaching a fully charged one? They claimed it could be done faster than filling a petrol car -I think there's a video on you tube.
Slightly off tooic, we had a few of the BMW electric scooters at work last year and boy did they shift - I found myself doing 80 in a 50 on a few occasions!!

[lostandfound]

Weren't Tea!a experimenting with battery changing stations where you drove up and robots unscrew the discharged battery, slide it away for charging, and attaching a fully charged one? They claimed it could be done faster than filling a petrol car -I think there's a video on you tube.
Slightly off tooic, we had a few of the BMW electric scooters at work last year and boy did they shift - I found myself doing 80 in a 50 on a few occasions!!

According to Google they took out a patent on a robotic device that could do a 15 minute swap.

External Link/Members Only

However, according to yesterday's presentation, their strategic direction is to make the batteries part of the structure of the car, in which case I cannot see how it will be possible to swap them out like that.

Here is a slide from yesterday, showing the proposed structural battery idea, beneath an image of the current battery arrangement.

Hidden Image/Members Only

[cunningman]

However, according to yesterday's presentation, their strategic direction is to make the batteries part of the structure of the car, in which case I cannot see how it will be possible to swap them out like that.

Indeed.  It seems a retrograde step, unless you can swap out a whole structural subframe with embedded batteries, and then reuse them in grid-scale or home storage.  Where's Gordon Murray when we need him?  Oh yes, having fun with fans!

[Gordon Bennett]

Trouble with battery technology is China has cornered the world market in mining rare earth minerals, including the stuff that goes in batteries. The rare earth stuff is pretty evenly distributed around the world so other countries could get their arses in gear and dig their own minerals up and thus be less dependent on the Chinese supply, but it's a mucky polluting enterprise that compromises their green ecological targets. Something will have to give, particularly if Trump and Xi continue their trade spat.

[sub_marine]

I personally do about 3 trips a year that are more than 100 miles each way, so might need to plan a cafe break for human recharge while the car also charges.  I also go mountain biking every 2-3 weeks and park up in quite a lot of remote forest carparks and random laybys on back roads, these can be 75miles each way, so would need big enough room for a bike in the boot plus enough charge so that even in a frosty winter day I could get there and back.  Wouldn't mind something like a renault kangoo van as it's just for muddy biking gear, but they would need to double the current range.  Wireless charging is already available in a few car parks, you can bet that shopping centres will be the first to install loads of chargers to attract people who are flush with cash to their businesses.

Both my neighbours currently have an EV and ICE car each, I'm interested but probably as a 3rd car.  I'll stick with my Audi RS6 with milltek exhaust system for now, can't beat a V8 earthquake every morning with the cold startup roar

[lostandfound]

I personally do about 3 trips a year that are more than 100 miles each way, so might need to plan a cafe break for human recharge while the car also charges.  I also go mountain biking every 2-3 weeks and park up in quite a lot of remote forest carparks and random laybys on back roads, these can be 75miles each way, so would need big enough room for a bike in the boot plus enough charge so that even in a frosty winter day I could get there and back.  Wouldn't mind something like a renault kangoo van as it's just for muddy biking gear, but they would need to double the current range.  Wireless charging is already available in a few car parks, you can bet that shopping centres will be the first to install loads of chargers to attract people who are flush with cash to their businesses.

Both my neighbours currently have an EV and ICE car each, I'm interested but probably as a 3rd car.  I'll stick with my Audi RS6 with milltek exhaust system for now, can't beat a V8 earthquake every morning with the cold startup roar

Your neighbours must love you. 

One of mine had an E60 M5 - the one with a V10 engine. I thought there was a car with a broken exhaust until I saw him setting off one day and heard the awful racket it made.

[Gordon Bennett]

Stumbled across an interesting 60min documentary about the development of the Jaguar I-Pace on Amazon Prime. It also covers the wider history and development  of electric cars that is fascinating. A good watch indeed.

External Link/Members Only

[Kev40ish]

Just ordered a Tesla. I just need a car to get me about I think it’s better value than my Audi I won’t have to pay any BIK which is currently £4000 per year on my Audi.
Running costs should be cheaper although not sure how much per mile I can claim back yet..
As I do drive into the congestion zone it will save me money there too.

Just thought I’d try it whilst tax concessions are an advantage to see how I get on.

[LLPunting]

Indeed.  It seems a retrograde step, unless you can swap out a whole structural subframe with embedded batteries, and then reuse them in grid-scale or home storage.  Where's Gordon Murray when we need him?  Oh yes, having fun with fans!

The batteries will still be in a contiguous serviceable/removable block, covered in other more expansive articles.  The pictured illustration shoes the arrangement to support this.

[lostandfound]

The batteries will still be in a contiguous serviceable/removable block, covered in other more expansive articles.  The pictured illustration shoes the arrangement to support this.

I'd be interested in reading those articles if you have links please?

My impression from the B Day pressie was that they'd only be coming out of the vehicle for repurposing / recycling at the end of the vehicle's life.

As I suggested on another thread, economies of scale appear to be over for Li batteries, and the cost is remaining stubbornly high. This is a radical development to address that, although one that has been talked about for some years with historical parallels in the aircraft (wing fuel tanks) and motoring industries (monocoque chassis). Shame in a way, because the skateboard architecture allows a revival in coachbuilding and we could see all kinds of low volume vehicles coachbuilt on skateboards, though so far only TSLA has come out and said they are going to implement this approach. Hate to fan the fanboys ardour but it could put TSLA years ahead on battery cost.

[Chorley]

I saw one of these yesterday



Hidden Image/Members Only

I initially thought it was a Panamera, but then it realised it was the new Taycan all electric from Porsche. It's a big old thing and looks quite striking. I think the starting price is north of 80K, so that's me out. 

[tintin100]

Just ordered a Tesla. I just need a car to get me about I think it’s better value than my Audi I won’t have to pay any BIK which is currently £4000 per year on my Audi.
Running costs should be cheaper although not sure how much per mile I can claim back yet..
As I do drive into the congestion zone it will save me money there too.

Just thought I’d try it whilst tax concessions are an advantage to see how I get on.

Same here, I can't see myself buying another A6, I will probably get the model 3, the only problem I have is the charging port connection to my consumer unit.

[sub_marine]

Same here, I can't see myself buying another A6, I will probably get the model 3, the only problem I have is the charging port connection to my consumer unit.

Government used to give grants upon the purchase of a new 100% electric car of £1k towards the 32A wiring required for a home charger, one of my colleages was a sparky by trade and helped his mate on his days off to wire these up as it was money for old rope.  Maybe Boris has done a U-turn on it now it's too popular

[magpie252]

Government used to give grants upon the purchase of a new 100% electric car of £1k towards the 32A wiring required for a home charger, one of my colleages was a sparky by trade and helped his mate on his days off to wire these up as it was money for old rope.  Maybe Boris has done a U-turn on it now it's too popular

A grant of £3,000 is still available on new vehicles up to £50K purchase price, £500 grant for installing a home charger

[Spacecowb0y]

I personally do about 3 trips a year that are more than 100 miles each way, so might need to plan a cafe break for human recharge while the car also charges.  I also go mountain biking every 2-3 weeks and park up in quite a lot of remote forest carparks and random laybys on back roads, these can be 75miles each way, so would need big enough room for a bike in the boot plus enough charge so that even in a frosty winter day I could get there and back.  Wouldn't mind something like a renault kangoo van as it's just for muddy biking gear, but they would need to double the current range.  Wireless charging is already available in a few car parks, you can bet that shopping centres will be the first to install loads of chargers to attract people who are flush with cash to their businesses.

Both my neighbours currently have an EV and ICE car each, I'm interested but probably as a 3rd car.  I'll stick with my Audi RS6 with milltek exhaust system for now, can't beat a V8 earthquake every morning with the cold startup roar

Now you talking. My V8 M3 shakes the house. Wife says the earth moved,but not in a good way!

[Blackpool Rock]

Now you talking. My V8 M3 shakes the house. Wife says the earth moved,but not in a good way!

How old's that M3 
Just looking online for the spec and the new ones are showing as an inline straight 6 turbo

0-60 in 4.1 seconds but with a limited 155Mph, 3 litre with 473 HP or the M3 Competition 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and 180Mph, power increased to 503 HP
Just shy of £75K but BMW being BMW you can probably add a shit load of money to that as everything will be a chargeable optional extra

[sub_marine]

Now you talking. My V8 M3 shakes the house. Wife says the earth moved,but not in a good way!

Especially if its a milltek when there are no middle boxes and no flaps on the back boxes, and in winter audi has designed it to rev to 2k for the first 30 seconds to build some heat, hillarious in multi storey car parks when lesser cars get scared and the alarms starts going off

[Gordon Bennett]

Oi!! You dirty smelly greasey petrol-head boy racers are doing doughnuts all over this lovely environmentally friendly thread. Desist at once or I'll post a picture of Greta Thunberg.

[lostandfound]

You have to allow the neanderthals to howl at the moon [no offence intended lads]. We'll all be swanning around in robotised milk floats soon enough.

[computergeek]

The cattleprod-up-the-arse with electric cars is that only you posh fuckers with driveways and garages can recharge overnight using your own leccy.

Us poor bastards with flats/terraced houses/whatever who have to park on the road won't be allowed to string extension leads across the pavement on the one day a month we can actually park outside our own house. We're fucked until they sort either the nearly-instant battery swap, electrolyte filling station, or until practically every lamp post and parking bay has a charging station. 

I can't tell you in advance exactly where I'm parking tomorrow night, other than somewhere near my house, and right now there's no charging point within at least a mile where I can leave the car to charge overnight. 
Also, fuck walking back that far, that's why I own a car!

[Jonestown]

You have to allow the neanderthals to howl at the moon [no offence intended lads]. We'll all be swanning around in robotised milk floats soon enough.

Or shuffling around in a Citroen Ami

External Link/Members Only

[sub_marine]

Oi!! You dirty smelly greasey petrol-head boy racers are doing doughnuts all over this lovely environmentally friendly thread. Desist at once or I'll post a picture of Greta Thunberg.

As top gear showed, its all about how you drive, not what you drive.  External Link/Members Only

I found this out myself as well, I drove twice between Aberdeen and Fort William in the same month, firstly in an 98 Peugeot 06 GTi, which had a pretty crude but powerful for its size engine, that took 2h54 and 42mpg

Next time I borrowed a 2013 fiesta 1.2, lot more modern car, engine designed for economy, thought I would save on fuel.  The trip took basically the same time, 2h56, but only managed 32mpg

My wifes petrol A1, she can only average about 45mpg, but I can get 65mpg by driving smarter

[chrishornx]

Oi!! You dirty smelly greasey petrol-head boy racers are doing doughnuts all over this lovely environmentally friendly thread. Desist at once or I'll post a picture of Greta Thunberg.

think you need to post that photo Gordon

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Anybody realise that the UK almost ran out of Leccy yesterday, cos the freeaking windmills almost stopped owing to a  lack of wind?.

They had to fire up the old remaing coal sets and Oil stations to keep the power on!.

What will it be like whern we all have lectrick motahs!?.

External Link/Members Only

[lostandfound]

Anybody realise that the UK almost ran out of Leccy yesterday, cos the freeaking windmills almost stopped owing to a  lack of wind?.

They had to fire up the old remaing coal sets and Oil stations to keep the power on!.

What will it be like whern we all have lectrick motahs!?.

External Link/Members Only

We'll all be paying £20 a month for unlimited electricity just as we do now for unlimited data.

External Link/Members Only

[Blackpool Rock]

Anybody realise that the UK almost ran out of Leccy yesterday, cos the freeaking windmills almost stopped owing to a  lack of wind?.

They had to fire up the old remaing coal sets and Oil stations to keep the power on!.

What will it be like whern we all have lectrick motahs!?.

External Link/Members Only

Sorry but i'm calling bullshit on that, take a look at the live data link and it also shows energy production over set time frames such as the past day which indicates 3.3% of energy came from coal, fossil fuel use is higher than normal but that's mainly down to gas, can't actually see oil mentioned 

I'm pretty sure it's not possible to suddenly "Fire up" an old coal generating plant in the same way these things take an age to run down to begin with, as I understand it many of they have been converted to burn biomass such as wood chips and other waste from forestry sources etc

Wind isn't and has never been billed as a total solution to energy but it is part of an overall diverse structure

External Link/Members Only

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Sorry but i'm calling bullshit on that, take a look at the live data link and it also shows energy production over set time frames such as the past day which indicates 3.3% of energy came from coal, fossil fuel use is higher than normal but that's mainly down to gas, can't actually see oil mentioned 

I'm pretty sure it's not possible to suddenly "Fire up" an old coal generating plant in the same way these things take an age to run down to begin with, as I understand it many of they have been converted to burn biomass such as wood chips and other waste from forestry sources etc

Wind isn't and has never been billed as a total solution to energy but it is part of an overall diverse structure

External Link/Members Only

Yes they do take some time to come online but they were up for all the capacity they could get, even asking as they sometimes big consumers to reduce damand ir order to stop cuts.

Wind is billed by some as to total answer to all our power problmes espically carbon generation and levels even that muppet BoJo thinks that renewables will power us all! What is needed is investment in small scale modular Nuclear.....

I belive that old Trump has done that with a firm called nuscale.


Wind, shes gotta be female as shes so so fickle
External Link/Members Only

[sub_marine]

Once everybody has electric cars and home batterys like the tesla home battery setup, the electric companies can charge your batteries for you when energy is abundent then suck some back when demand is high.  By doing that the electricity providers can play both sides of the supply demand cost curve, thereby taking electricity off of the grid when it is very cheap or even negative, and then supplying the grid when prices are high.

Tesla will be offering a special tarriff to owners of electric cars and home storage batteries, not sure how much of a £/unit saving you will get, but your batteries will be getting cycled a bit more than from just your own usage

[Prophet 999]

Anyone actually got one? Any regrets or buyer's remorse or is it everything you hoped for?

I like the look of the new Honda one but don't think I'm quite ready to take the plunge.

If anyone is worried about compromising their anonymity, just tell us about your mate's one

I got mine earlier this year. Always had big engine V6s before and I have never looked back

It's awesome.
Sure you need to plan your range and sure...the actual real world range is nothing Vs stated figures but.....

It's saving me £400 plus per month in fuel alone

It's instant quick and charging isn't that bad

I would never go back to conventional combustion engines or useless hybrids

And yes I do a LOT of mileage