Any thoughts on the A Level Exam results fiasco?

[winkywanky]

Seems an almost impossible situation to me  .

If you just go on teachers' recommendations then they obviously want the best for the little darlings in their class. In many cases they'll tend to suggest a higher grade than a realistic one. It'll also reflect well on them personally, and it'll also be tied up with their school's Ofsted rating (although hopefully they'd be set aside for this year, as being pretty well meaningless).

But clearly, if you suddenly get tens of thousands more pupils getting higher grades than usual, then you discredit all results for that year. The grades become almost meaningless  . And then everyone loses. It will cause confusion for Employers and Universities, being suddenly snowed under with all the A-Grade geniuses coming out of nowhere.

Overall, you can suggest a system where you end up with roughly the same bulk results as last year, based on school and area etc. That's fair...overall.Kids don't suddenly get cleverer in one particular school year. If that's what you do then some kids will inevitably lose out, but the obvious corollary of that is that some kids will win. So long as you put in an appeals process to deal with big losers (which has happened I think) then unfair losses will be ameliorated to a large extent.

But we seem to have been dragged into the usual snowflakey shit with a load of whingeing and handwringing, and accusations of doing down poorer areas, and somewhat inevitably, BAME has been brought to the fore once again  .

I'm finding it hard to make much sense of it all, I don't have kids of that age.

Any thoughts?

[lostandfound]

It's just all fucked up because of Covid and as a result there is probably no right answer to the problem. It will just have to play out.

If I was a young person currently on the sharp end of not getting into Uni as a result of this process I might well have a burning sense of injustice, and would be supported by my parents as a matter of course. Puts the school in a difficult position too.

Worcester College, Oxford's decision to make all thier offered places unconditional seems a good solution to me.

[Animalbeast]

Seems an almost impossible situation to me  .

If you just go on teachers' recommendations then they obviously want the best for the little darlings in their class. In many cases they'll tend to suggest a higher grade than a realistic one. It'll also reflect well on them personally, and it'll also be tied up with their school's Ofsted rating (although hopefully they'd be set aside for this year, as being pretty well meaningless).

But clearly, if you suddenly get tens of thousands more pupils getting higher grades than usual, then you discredit all results for that year. The grades become almost meaningless  . And then everyone loses. It will cause confusion for Employers and Universities, being suddenly snowed under with all the A-Grade geniuses coming out of nowhere.

Overall, you can suggest a system where you end up with roughly the same bulk results as last year, based on school and area etc. That's fair...overall.Kids don't suddenly get cleverer in one particular school year. If that's what you do then some kids will inevitably lose out, but the obvious corollary of that is that some kids will win. So long as you put in an appeals process to deal with big losers (which has happened I think) then unfair losses will be ameliorated to a large extent.

But we seem to have been dragged into the usual snowflakey shit with a load of whingeing and handwringing, and accusations of doing down poorer areas, and somewhat inevitably, BAME has been brought to the fore once again  .

I'm finding it hard to make much sense of it all, I don't have kids of that age.

Any thoughts?

I think some people said private schools like Eton etc didn’t have any grades downgraded. Not sure if that’s true or a myth, or if true what’s the reason maybe smaller classes means they didn’t use the algorithm. But as a headline it does look very elitist

[martini2429]

If a Uni or College offered someone a place then they should give them that place no matter what results they got in this farce, that way they then have the next few years to prove they were worthy (as they all claim they are), if they fail then Uni's and College's can lay the blame at the Governments door

 

[Chorley]

It's probably just me being unduly harsh, but every young person they've interviewed has come across as the worst type of self entitled, whiny snowflake, so I've found it difficult to have any sympathy to be honest? 

[Corus Boy]

There was never going to be a good, or fair outcome as there are too many variables involved not to mention vested interests.

Teachers and schools:

Their performance is judged on results, so they will wanted the best results they can defend.

Learners:

They study and learn in different ways.

Some find exams a breeze as they learn facts and simply regurgitate them.  Life is a series of exams, large ones and simple day to day tasks.

Some study a broad brush of information, decide what is important, precis the relevant into an important and accurate report.

Some pay little attention to mock exams and focus their energies on the final exams.

Some do little work and Copy and Paste their coursework from the Internet.

None can claim that their grades from a flawed assessment process will be representative.

However no Government or Educational Body has faced dealing with a Pandemic and I like to believe that they did what they thought was best, and as there is no perfect, faultless answer, this is what they/we have to live with.

[timsussex]

the only thing we have learnt is NOT to trust teachers

Nearly 40% over estimation - is that dishonesty  or incompetence ?

The fact is that the exam boards fiddle with the grade boundaries every year so this year is no different
Scrap these guys and just have a simple system so that the top 10% get an A next 10% get a B etc
 

[Adoniron]

This year is so exceptional, the kids are in this position through no fault of their own  and its unfair to destroy their future on the basis of an obviously flawed algorithm. The way forward is for the universities to honour the offers of everyone who got close to what was needed. Every year my old uni writes to me asking for money to help disadvantaged and underprivileged students. Well now it should step up and do something positive to help them.

[Doc Holliday]

Every year huge numbers of students fail to get their predicted grades. I gather from listening to a report on the radio the other day that the predicted grades at A level (upon which you are offered a university place) only match the actual exam results in around 15% of cases (from memory) A relatively small proportion achieve a higher than predicted grade but the majority get a lesser grade.

What does that tell us?

[tesla]

If the children (kids are baby goats) do not like the result they have been given they have the opportunity to take a proper exam later this year, seem to be the only answer which will get a result that is fair.

[timsussex]

Every year huge numbers of students fail to get their predicted grades. I gather from listening to a report on the radio the other day that the predicted grades at A level (upon which you are offered a university place) only match the actual exam results in around 15% of cases (from memory) A relatively small proportion achieve a higher than predicted grade but the majority get a lesser grade.

What does that tell us?

1) its easier to cockup an exam than to to excel
2) there are lots of bad influences on performance (bad nights sleep, cold, headache etc)but no good ones
3) teachers are human and not very good at grading people they know

[Adoniron]

In a year when the government has paid millions to literally sit on their arses for 6 months and bailed out mult-million pound businesses, why can't it just give these intelligent, hard working young people the benefit of the doubt?

[Ali Katt]

If a Uni or College offered someone a place then they should give them that place no matter what results they got in this farce, that way they then have the next few years to prove they were worthy (as they all claim they are), if they fail then Uni's and College's can lay the blame at the Governments door

 

Places like Oxford have a formal interview and as far as I know require extra curricular activities like sport or if someone was a choir boy to get in.

Universities like the shit ones that keep offering worthless degrees need closing in my opinion.

[winkywanky]

In a year when the government has paid millions to literally sit on their arses for 6 months and bailed out mult-million pound businesses, why can't it just give these intelligent, hard working young people the benefit of the doubt?

I would agree with that all day long.

I really feel for young kids/adults, a few of them have been twats but most have been good with Lockdown. It's a truly horrible time to be that age and Locked Down.

However, the sad truth is (I think) that if the proposed grades were just given out of kindheartedness and understanding, undoubtedly those grades would be cheapened    .

[Squire Haggard]

In a year when the government has paid millions to literally sit on their arses for 6 months and bailed out mult-million pound businesses, why can't it just give these intelligent, hard working young people the benefit of the doubt?

When I was marking coursework, I marked it to match the grade that I felt it should get. If there was doubt, I suppose that I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
It often matched the exam component mark. The final results were mostly much as expected, with few surprises. There was always an appeal to be made if the results were not as good as expected. There were never any appeals made if the results were higher than expected. 

As for this year, I see no harm in predicting what the teachers think they should get, and where there is doubt, give them the benefit of that. With the absence of real exams, I really dont see what else could have been done. Its better that they are a bit higher than usual, rather than playing whack a mole with moderation.

[ulstersubbie]

Universities like the shit ones that keep offering worthless degrees need closing in my opinion.

Totally agree, most of them were former polytechnics.

[j_181]

the only thing we have learnt is NOT to trust teachers

Nearly 40% over estimation - is that dishonesty  or incompetence ?

When we choose to pay teachers a pittance, but give them bonuses linked to student performance, not really sure what anyone expected to happen.

[j_181]

Places like Oxford have a formal interview and as far as I know require extra curricular activities like sport or if someone was a choir boy to get in.

Universities like the shit ones that keep offering worthless degrees need closing in my opinion.

Which degrees are worthless? You can't demand that universities are run on market principles and then whinge when they run degree programmes that are profitable but you don't think are worthy.

[Ali Katt]

Which degrees are worthless? You can't demand that universities are run on market principles and then whinge when they run degree programmes that are profitable but you don't think are worthy.

Gender Studies, possibly Media Studies and Journalism, Women's Studies\Feminist Studies, American Studies, General Studies, possibly business studies, Contemporary Studies, Postmodernism, critical theory modules at college.

[conrod]

The accuracy of the algorithm used is the problem. It has varied between 30% to 70%.  Nobody in their right mind would consider that acceptable.

[Ali Katt]

When we choose to pay teachers a pittance, but give them bonuses linked to student performance, not really sure what anyone expected to happen.

They get massive holidays. Who wouldn't want 8 weeks paid holiday? Uni teachers can earn as much as a junior doctor for teaching social sciences, it doesn't seem fair to me.

Student performance is tricky to grade. If a teacher has to manage the problem class which could consist of school bullies, thick kids and disruptive students they are going to get paid for doing a harder job than if someone gets the Grade A students who want to learn. I'm not sure how it is decided and obviously experience will come under it, but when I was at school who taught who seemed a bit like the staff drew straws in the staff room.

[Adoniron]

Gender Studies, possibly Media Studies and Journalism, Women's Studies\Feminist Studies, American Studies, General Studies, possibly business studies, Contemporary Studies, Postmodernism, critical theory modules at college.

Business studies? Seriously? You dont consider that relevant or useful? Lots of employers do

[Ali Katt]

Business studies? Seriously? You dont consider that relevant or useful? Lots of employers do

I said possibly. And for the most part not compared to say Accounting, Advanced Mathematics or economics. And I'm referring to a general business studies degree, not something specific, but related like tourism or HR.

[winkywanky]

when I was at school who taught who seemed a bit like the staff drew straws in the staff room.

...you don't seem to have come out of it too badly...

[LLPunting]

Gender Studies, possibly Media Studies and Journalism, Women's Studies\Feminist Studies, American Studies, General Studies, possibly business studies, Contemporary Studies, Postmodernism, critical theory modules at college.

Plenty of worthy components in those subjects.  Perhaps you're trolling in a curmudgeonly way?   Given you're a graduate of old you can't possibly be doing it out of ignorance or lack of acuity.

[Waterhouse]

Re:  Topic: Any thoughts on the A Level Exam results fiasco?

Couldn’t give a fuck to be honest... far too  much going that warrants concern other than some scrote rug-rat's GCSE score.  It's not binding or costing anything, and fairly easy to re-do/re-take, especially given the current mitigating circumstances.

I say this a dad who’s son is about to commence his second year at Uni - a Uni who are taking the piss and liberties with fees (full fee still applicable) and still delivering course content on-line in a hugely sub-par manner/fashion. 

A lot of Uni's are doing this for a wide amount of courses and still charging top dollar for the privilege. Taking the piss IMO. Most of these kids have signed rental contracts for accommodation in the same town as the Uni's they’re studying at and having to pay the rent for places they’re not even staying/living at. Better that they had signed up to OU instead.

School academia doesn’t command a fee; University participation does, and not just tuition fees.  Both the Goverment and University boards are screwing it up and taking the piss.

[LLPunting]

I said possibly. And for the most part not compared to say Accounting, Advanced Mathematics or economics. And I'm referring to a general business studies degree, not something specific, but related like tourism or HR.

Interesting you should choose 3 of the subjects most responsible for the parlous inequity across the populations of the World economies and the heinous abuse of power in the developed and developing countries.

[LLPunting]

I would agree with that all day long.

I really feel for young kids/adults, a few of them have been twats but most have been good with Lockdown. It's a truly horrible time to be that age and Locked Down.

However, the sad truth is (I think) that if the proposed grades were just given out of kindheartedness and understanding, undoubtedly those grades would be cheapened    .

Given that everyone has been suffering because of the lockdowns and older others living under greater stress and risk I would rather the kids showed some character and just dealt with it.  None of them are likely people with substantial responsibilities, debts and careers that have been made worse or ended because of the furloughs, lost business and layoffs.  Missing out on a year at the start of an unproven path when many if not most have no inclination to be anything worthy or worthwhile is hardly a life crisis. Some were likely to be taking a gap anyway, others would have been those who would've had to be taking retakes anyway. 

Appeals where gross errors of markdown have been committed were always available and understood so the media tossing up the edge cases like the whole cohort have been undone is a disgusting exaggeration. 

[Waterhouse]

Given that everyone has been suffering because of the lockdowns and older others living under greater stress and risk I would rather the kids showed some character and just dealt with it.  None of them are likely people with substantial responsibilities, debts and careers that have been made worse or ended because of the furloughs, lost business and layoffs.  Missing out on a year at the start of an unproven path when many if not most have no inclination to be anything worthy or worthwhile is hardly a life crisis. Some were likely to be taking a gap anyway, others would have been those who would've had to be taking retakes anyway. 

Appeals where gross errors of markdown have been committed were always available and understood so the media tossing up the edge cases like the whole cohort have been undone is a disgusting exaggeration.

Far more eloquent than I put it.

[timsussex]

Its not just Universities; this year our local college will turn out nearly 300 students with qualifications in hairdressing, travel and tourism and sports science.

how many jobs in our local area will require those skills ?

The problem is that pupils are encouraged to take course they will enjoy rather than those that are useful. Of course students that enjoy their course are likely to better (and the less academic are certainly more likely to stick with it) but now that Woolworths has closed who will employ them?

[Waterhouse]

Its not just Universities; this year our local college will turn out nearly 300 students with qualifications in hairdressing, travel and tourism and sports science.

how many jobs in our local area will require those skills ?

The problem is that pupils are encouraged to take course they will enjoy rather than those that are useful. Of course students that enjoy their course are likely to better (and the less academic are certainly more likely to stick with it) but now that Woolworths has closed who will employ them?

MacDonalds...

If they happen to have any vacancies locally and at the time.

[Adoniron]

Given that everyone has been suffering because of the lockdowns and older others living under greater stress and risk I would rather the kids showed some character and just dealt with it.  None of them are likely people with substantial responsibilities, debts and careers that have been made worse or ended because of the furloughs, lost business and layoffs.  Missing out on a year at the start of an unproven path when many if not most have no inclination to be anything worthy or worthwhile is hardly a life crisis. Some were likely to be taking a gap anyway, others would have been those who would've had to be taking retakes anyway. 

Appeals where gross errors of markdown have been committed were always available and understood so the media tossing up the edge cases like the whole cohort have been undone is a disgusting exaggeration.

Nothing about this situation is the fault of the students. For years they have been told work hard, study hard, your grades are important, you get out what you put in, if you do well you can go to uni then get a well paid job and have a successful career. However they have been deprived of tuition for months leading up to their exams and then deprived of the chance to take their exams. Instead they are graded on the basis of what other students did in past years.

I have no skin in this game, my kids have already graduated. If they had taken their A Levels this year I would be livid. The way this has been handled is completely unfair.
Everything about 2020 has been unprecedented and these young people should be treated as an exception.

If a few of them get into uni and aren't up to it they will soon get found out, but give them the chance.

[LLPunting]

Nothing about this situation is the fault of the students. For years they have been told work hard, study hard, your grades are important, you get out what you put in, if you do well you can go to uni then get a well paid job and have a successful career. However they have been deprived of tuition for months leading up to their exams and then deprived of the chance to take their exams. Instead they are graded on the basis of what other students did in past years.

I have no skin in this game, my kids have already graduated. If they had taken their A Levels this year I would be livid. The way this has been handled is completely unfair.
Everything about 2020 has been unprecedented and these young people should be treated as an exception.

If a few of them get into uni and aren't up to it they will soon get found out, but give them the chance.

They had months off but most if not all had distanced learning support, all had the opportunity to show some self-motivation and study for themselves or remotely amongst themselves regardless of whether they were going to definitely sit exams or not. 

There have been a number of edge cases reported just as would have happened every year.
Here are the past 3 years:
External Link/Members Only
External Link/Members Only
External Link/Members Only

And a little more commentary:
External Link/Members Only

Completely unfair!?  The vast majority of A level students got good grades and 76+% have gone on to their first choice places of study before appeals are lodged despite the fiasco.

EVERY year students are subjected to normalisation,  EVERY year they are subjected to evaluation by their teachers and predictions are made (with whatever equanimity or bias motivates the teachers and their leaders) so this year they didn't have to go through the stress of sitting the most challenging aspect of their school careers to date.  If they wig out because they got grades partly driven by predictions based on the evaluations by those most familiar with their intellects and characters and quite likely given the benefit of the doubt that they'd not bottle it under exam pressure then how the Hell do they think they're going to cope with the next few years of increasing levels of academic pressure which are going to set them back perhaps £15-20k per year.

The teachers are up in arms BUT they countenanced the approach when they gave their predictions before lockdown because not only were they asked to predict grades but they were also asked to rank their kids.  It is this latter estimation that has caused the chaos as it has been used to drive the downgrades to avoid grade inflation.

The algo might be unfair and unjust at the edges but so far the damage done isn't looking disproportionate to previous years.  Meanwhile this will be another year of over 50% progressing to HE.

[Ali Katt]

Plenty of worthy components in those subjects.  Perhaps you're trolling in a curmudgeonly way?   Given you're a graduate of old you can't possibly be doing it out of ignorance or lack of acuity.

Worthy components in women's studies or American studies? Come on. Everyone knows they  are there to massage unemployment statistics for those studying them.

[Digby232]

All students should just take the exam in the autumn !!

[Corus Boy]

All students should just take the exam in the autumn !!

And then they can claim that the results are not fair because they did not receive the correct tuition? 

Which of course they will not have.

Then there will be a need to adjust grades to reflect this.

Next standards will be lowered to account for the loss of lessons.

Then their next year of education will be flawed because of lack of learning in certain areas.

There is no easy answer, in fact no answer.

Personally I would have investigated the practicality of just 'resetting' the year for everyone and in September all learners start the lost year in its entirity.

[Adoniron]

All students should just take the exam in the autumn !!

In which case they go to uni in 2021 not this year.

[Xtro]

It's probably just me being unduly harsh, but every young person they've interviewed has come across as the worst type of self entitled, whiny snowflake, so I've found it difficult to have any sympathy to be honest? 

Give it 10 years and half of 'em will be on UKP arguing the toss.

Gender Studies, possibly Media Studies and Journalism, Women's Studies\Feminist Studies, American Studies, General Studies, possibly business studies, Contemporary Studies, Postmodernism, critical theory modules at college.

All the qualifications to be a member here!   

A few have master's degrees in ALL of the above.   

[Digby232]

If as the teachers are saying they worked tirelessly on online tuition they should have had adequate teaching to take the exam. The gov promised computers and internet for families that didn’t have it. You saying the gov didn’t provide all they promised😂😂

[Adoniron]

In which case they go to uni in 2021 not this year.

That affects this year's intake (fewer students than the unis budgeted for)  and next year's (far more students trying to get in than usual).

[j_181]

Gender Studies, possibly Media Studies and Journalism, Women's Studies\Feminist Studies, American Studies, General Studies, possibly business studies, Contemporary Studies, Postmodernism, critical theory modules at college.

These degrees exist because students want them, and because universities have been forced by successive governments to operate on market principles. You can't have it both ways.

In any case, the suggestion that there is nothing of value in any of these disciplines is rather short-sighted, but I suspect you know that and are just saying it to get a reaction.

[Scotpunter]

Nothing about this situation is the fault of the students. For years they have been told work hard, study hard, your grades are important, you get out what you put in, if you do well you can go to uni then get a well paid job and have a successful career. However they have been deprived of tuition for months leading up to their exams and then deprived of the chance to take their exams. Instead they are graded on the basis of what other students did in past years.

I have no skin in this game, my kids have already graduated. If they had taken their A Levels this year I would be livid. The way this has been handled is completely unfair.
Everything about 2020 has been unprecedented and these young people should be treated as an exception.

If a few of them get into uni and aren't up to it they will soon get found out, but give them the chance.

I think that is flawed thinking. At the time the UK went into lockdown, Most students taking exams would be only a week or two from beginning study leave. The only thing they actually missed out on were the exams themselves.

It does seem a strange system where mock exams are marked by the teachers in house. My suggestion for the future would be to swap the papers anonymously with a school of similar size. That way you have a completely unbiased view.

[Adoniron]

I think that is flawed thinking. At the time the UK went into lockdown, Most students taking exams would be only a week or two from beginning study leave. The only thing they actually missed out on were the exams themselves.

It does seem a strange system where mock exams are marked by the teachers in house. My suggestion for the future would be to swap the papers anonymously with a school of similar size. That way you have a completely unbiased view.

Lockdown started in March, study leave would have started in May, about 6 weeks later.

Of course if the coursework/continuous assessment element hadn't been abolished a few years ago we wouldn't be in this mess now.

[timsussex]

here's a radical suggestion

We know that some teachers are more generous on estimated grades so rather than randomly grading down why not use last years estimated grades for each school and the actual grades to work out a factor to apply to this years estimated grades ?

and make every school publish their estimated grades and actual grades every year

[LLPunting]

here's a radical suggestion

We know that some teachers are more generous on estimated grades so rather than randomly grading down why not use last years estimated grades for each school and the actual grades to work out a factor to apply to this years estimated grades ?

and make every school publish their estimated grades and actual grades every year

That's what the algo was attempting to do, at least in part.  Hence all the complaint about different students year to year means different independent performance.
What they should do is attribute the predictions to the teachers and adjust according to their year-on-year predictions and actuals from previous years.  Teacher pay should have a performance based component driven by their own improving performance as they move from school to school as well as their pupils' improvements over the year they've been taught as well as spotting and facilitating SEN action for those kids in difficulty.

[timsussex]

That's what the algo was attempting to do, at least in part.  Hence all the complaint about different students year to year means different independent performance.
What they should do is attribute the predictions to the teachers and adjust according to their year-on-year predictions and actuals from prevuious years.  Teacher pay should have a performance based component driven by their own improving performance as they move from school to school as well as their pupils' improvements over the year they've been taught as well as spotting and facilitating SEN action for those kids in difficulty.

As  I understand it the algorithm takes into account the schools previous years results but not the previous  accuracy of the teachers predictions. Yet this is information that every school has - and any sensible school would look at that data each year to see if it could be improved

[Scotpunter]

Lockdown started in March, study leave would have started in May, about 6 weeks later.

Of course if the coursework/continuous assessment element hadn't been abolished a few years ago we wouldn't be in this mess now.

I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the Country. Up here study leave normally starts around mid April.

I do feel also that continuous assessment doesn't give a fair example of what the child has learnt. It is relatively easy to study a subject for 3 months and then give the answers on it. That just means you have a reasonable memory for the shorter term. Asking those same questions 9 months later means the child has retained the information and will hopefully be able to go back to it eg 10 years from now.

[Adoniron]

I don't know what the situation is in other parts of the Country. Up here study leave normally starts around mid April.

I do feel also that continuous assessment doesn't give a fair example of what the child has learnt. It is relatively easy to study a subject for 3 months and then give the answers on it. That just means you have a reasonable memory for the shorter term. Asking those same questions 9 months later means the child has retained the information and will hopefully be able to go back to it eg 10 years from now.

You've never heard of cramming for exams then? Exams are just a test of your ability to recall a lsrge amount of information for a short period of time.

[Corus Boy]

You've never heard of cramming for exams then? Exams are just a test of your ability to recall a lsrge amount of information for a short period of time.

Sounds a lot like life?

[lostandfound]

Beginning to sound like both Gav and OFQUAL are for the chop, and OFSTED not looking too clever either.