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Author Topic: Any thoughts on the A Level Exam results fiasco?  (Read 1857 times)

Offline lostandfound

Talking to a teacher yesterday and she was baffled why they didn't sit the exams. They've had all summer to sit them and empty schools to use. In normal times they sit them sat well apart to prevent cheating (ie socially distanced) so it wouldn't have actually been much different.

Yes - I was thinking the same thing this morning listening to people banging on about the fall out from reversing the decision to use the algorithm. The reversal seems to be causing almost as much angst!

Offline winkywanky

Well everyone (most, anyway) got what they wanted: their teacher's anticipated grades, which are virtually always higher than how exam results actually turn out.

So while they feel vindicated, in reality there's been massive grade inflation which hurts all pupils...apart from those at posh schools of course. Oh, hold on a minute... :rolleyes:

Offline winkywanky

I don't really know if a better/fairer algorithm could have been worked out, but it did seem that Williamson made pretty good provision for appeals to be made  :unknown:.

It was always going to be a crock of shit though, there'll always be thousands saying it's not fair on me!!!

Offline mh

Talking to a teacher yesterday and she was baffled why they didn't sit the exams. They've had all summer to sit them and empty schools to use. In normal times they sit them sat well apart to prevent cheating (ie socially distanced) so it wouldn't have actually been much different.
Saw this fairly simple and straightforward FT news clip about how the algorithm worked.....

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A good explanation. A brilliant student at the "wrong" school simply couldn't get a top grade, smaller schools (mostly private) weren't moderated down at all, rounding stupidity (in order to fit the curve) potentially meant a U grade for a student even if they were otherwise 1 mark off a B! This algorithm was doomed to fail, arguably any algorithm was doomed to fail. It was the failure to realise this that is the scandal, not the intentions at the outset.

I'm not sure they could have sat exams. Yes students would be distanced in the exam, but otherwise were just being put in the mixing pot at a time when things were not "relaxed" at all.

Offline Adoniron

As well as being asked to grade the kids the teachers were also asked to rank them from top to bottom in the class. This meant that if in the previous year someone at the school got an F the bottom ranked kid had to get an F even if the teacher had estimated them say a B or a C. Some were even given a U. FFS if you turn up for the exam and write your name on the paper you won't get a U. It was a crazy system and was doomed to failure from the start.

Online timsussex

As well as being asked to grade the kids the teachers were also asked to rank them from top to bottom in the class. This meant that if in the previous year someone at the school got an F the bottom ranked kid had to get an F even if the teacher had estimated them say a B or a C. Some were even given a U. FFS if you turn up for the exam and write your name on the paper you won't get a U. It was a crazy system and was doomed to failure from the start.

Agreed

But why not use ALL the information that we have ?

Every school has a record of their predicted grades for last year - and of course the actual ones. So we know which teachers tend to overestimate grades

Online LLPunting

I watched the video by the FT commentator in anticipation of a considered and insightful assessment of what happened and was disappointed.  He produced an "Internet" vlog with the same sensational commenting as has come from many other outlets and individuals who do not appear to have read the government report (I linked earlier) or sought to understand what actually was done.
Having now read much of the report it is clear that the people trying to do the predictions were highly cognisant of the issues with predicting for small and large centres (no presumption of them being private or state school but acknowledging that larger centres may well be colleges facilitating retakes).  They appear to have used more than one year's historic data for each centre that had history so the summary that last year's U forced a U this year doesn't appear to hold up in general.
Reading the summary at the start it is clear how over-inflated the teacher predictions were when compared to their historic performance (actuals vs predictions in previous years)
Compare the results from the much maligned and abandoned algorithm which were generous and above trend from actuals in previous years to the many times more inflated situation now in play because the teacher predictions have been applied across the board.

I would love to see a proper analysis by trained statisticians and modellers to understand what really went wrong, because the report would suggest that all the right motives were in play to maintain standards whilst actually doing the 2020 cohort a favour because of the unique circumstances regardless of whether they actually deserved the boost in fairness to all the past and future students who actually sat exams for these grades.

Offline mh

I would love to see a proper analysis by trained statisticians and modellers to understand what really went wrong, because the report would suggest that all the right motives were in play to maintain standards whilst actually doing the 2020 cohort a favour because of the unique circumstances regardless of whether they actually deserved the boost in fairness to all the past and future students who actually sat exams for these grades.

I don't have the references to hand but the Royal Statistical Society offered help to Ofqual months ago. The NDAs Ofqual demanded they sign were draconian so they proposed alternative NDA terms but Ofqual never replied.

Today the new "line" is that government agreed the "Model" and Ofqual came up with the "Algorithm". Quite frankly I don't see that any algorithm could be created that would meet the demands of a "model" whose overriding aim was to guard against grade inflation.

A model and algorithm that uses statistics and historical trends is by nature something that works overall but will have issues with specific cases. When those specifics are not truly random, fringe, small effects but have life long implications for the people affected by it, it is not fit for purpose.

Offline Chorley

I think this has the potential to fuck the Tories over with this demographic in much the same way tuition fees did for the Lib Dens.

Online LLPunting

I don't have the references to hand but the Royal Statistical Society offered help to Ofqual months ago. The NDAs Ofqual demanded they sign were draconian so they proposed alternative NDA terms but Ofqual never replied.

Today the new "line" is that government agreed the "Model" and Ofqual came up with the "Algorithm". Quite frankly I don't see that any algorithm could be created that would meet the demands of a "model" whose overriding aim was to guard against grade inflation.

A model and algorithm that uses statistics and historical trends is by nature something that works overall but will have issues with specific cases. When those specifics are not truly random, fringe, small effects but have life long implications for the people affected by it, it is not fit for purpose.


An algorithm is perfectly achievable, far more complicated ones are in use in many industries and opinion polling.
Specific cases are dealt with by the appeals process, sadly because the appeals process is now circumvented by public whining and collective rabid hysteria, the political pressure on the ordinary people administering the process becomes intolerable.
The "lifelong implications" is a clear example of a hysterical response, if the candidate truly feels hard done by the appeals process they can retake and defer a year, which at the age of 18 is hardly significant at all compared to the loss of employment for months or years for a mature worker with all the responsibilities accruing to their age and life choices.

The university drop-out rate is far higher than it was so there are plenty in the system incapable of sustaining the intellectual effort to obtain a degree of their choosing.
Other student drop-out because the expense becomes too much either because of recent unforeseen events or because they genuinely didn't consider and plan properly for it beforehand.

There is nothing wrong with returning to education later in life, it may be difficult but then with the wisdom of age one should be able to determine if it really is achievable under the circumstances and how necessary it is to fulfil oneself and realise goals.

The whole mentality about driving children past GCSEs and into Uni is a flawed ideology that breeds entitled individuals who either demand more than they're actually worth or are resentful of their failures.  The insistence that having a degree was a necessity for fulfilment is a ridiculous thing to champion.
A well crafted education policy that properly acknowledged the genetics and nurturing of intelligence, motivation and talent would have made vocational training and apprenticeships/internships/work experience just as accessible and available.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 01:20:44 pm by LLPunting »

Offline puntingpumping1920

My little brother got a "B/ Grade 6" in his maths GCSE

He told me he wouldn't have been able to achieve that grade if took the exams
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 02:29:37 pm by puntingpumping1920 »
Banned reason: Mr £500k go and buy some fucking manners
Banned by: Iloveoral

Offline mh

because the appeals process is now circumvented by public whining and collective rabid hysteria, the political pressure on the ordinary people administering the process becomes intolerable.

I'm not naive, I know teacher grades are optimistic - that's clear from the overall performance. I'm no fan of grade inflation either. I have to recruit and sometimes there's value in exam grades - you don't want to see everyone with As and Bs.

But to think that an algorithm one of whose clear aims is to fit current pupils to a curve within their own school from previous years and not have serious anomalies is misguided.

Yes, this is mainly about universities and they are not for everyone and should not be for everyone. The appeals approach might have worked had results been issued early to students and held back from Universities until they had been received by students and appeals had at least started. But to give them to universities when they were half baked has caused the problem. Apprenticeships have also been screwed over because of this. In some cases deferring a year will be easy but for many in the current economic climate it isn't a genuine option.

Offline Adoniron

My little brother got a "B/ Grade 6" in his maths GCSE

He told me he wouldn't have been able to achieve that grade if took the exams

How does he look? Is he intimately familiar with the marking system?

Online LLPunting

I'm not naive, I know teacher grades are optimistic - that's clear from the overall performance. I'm no fan of grade inflation either. I have to recruit and sometimes there's value in exam grades - you don't want to see everyone with As and Bs.

But to think that an algorithm one of whose clear aims is to fit current pupils to a curve within their own school from previous years and not have serious anomalies is misguided.

Yes, this is mainly about universities and they are not for everyone and should not be for everyone. The appeals approach might have worked had results been issued early to students and held back from Universities until they had been received by students and appeals had at least started. But to give them to universities when they were half baked has caused the problem. Apprenticeships have also been screwed over because of this. In some cases deferring a year will be easy but for many in the current economic climate it isn't a genuine option.

Statistical distributions are proven by actual performance.  Exceptions can be made for significant changes in the population profile so if a school suddenly starts taking brighter pupils then that can be allowed for.  The models are further validated by tracking student performance through their years of education so a dumb ass is spotted and likely won't be credited unduly with an A*, that was both in the sampling and also more importantly meant to be part of the teachers' responsibilities when they ranked the students in their classes.  One could argue how granular those rankings were BUT ultimately the teachers were responsible for providing the best assessment for each child as individuals and in relation to their class peers.

The curve SHAPE is being fitted NOT the numbers because that is what populations generally do.  Outliers occur but not usually in batches of hundreds or thousands from a single or small set of groups.  Such aberrations would be investigated for the virtuous or nefarious reasons they arose.  Individual exceptions are dealt with by the appeals process.

The algorithm was used to generate predictions for previous years to see how it matched their actuals and apparently satisfied the stakeholders that it was not mistreating the candidates or institutions.

Read the report, you're probably better at the stats than me so perhaps can spot where they went wrong, it appears to me that something seriously went wrong in translating all the caution and intent in the methodology  reported into the algorithm that wasn't subsequently surfaced in testing, perhaps they didn't do enough edge case analysis.

In the current economic climate the kids are the least vulnerable as they are unlikely to have well-paid jobs that they could lose, they are prime candidates for poorly paid jobs that are available, their financial obligations are minimal.  Sure there will be sadly plenty who are in distressing circumstances and unsafe households but they are meant to be protected by other existent (if ineffective) services.  It is not up to the education system to ensure their safety in that respect.

The universities knew about the situation at the same time as the students and their teaching establishments, they've had all this time to consider how they might accommodate the chaos of over-graded candidates, too many offers actually being achieved and how to handle clearing.  Lots of so called professionals washing their hands of responsibility because it's easier to chuck in the faces of politicians.  There is no doubt that politics is being played by parties that are not meant to be doing so and that is a disgrace because it has made things worse for the students.
Appeals, retakes and clearing have worked to a greater or lesser extent for decades.  The fact that students now are clamouring for admission despite the prospect of 15-20k bills for each of the next 3+ years speaks more to entitlement than sound thinking.  In this day of youth entrepreneurs, climate and social activism etc, they had the "excuse" of holding off on studies and trying to work or volunteer or travel or start their own business when it least mattered to the rest of their life choices.

Offline mh

Read the report, you're probably better at the stats than me so perhaps can spot where they went wrong, it appears to me that something seriously went wrong in translating all the caution and intent in the methodology  reported into the algorithm that wasn't subsequently surfaced in testing, perhaps they didn't do enough edge case analysis.

I'm an enthusiastic amateur on stats, not a professional. Have studied in the past but never worked in the field (but have used my knowledge to advantage at work for sure).

Something did go badly wrong here and not just one way. Now there are the horror stories about crazy high grades being awarded at GCSE (why they still went with the higher algorithm grades beggars belief - there was no necessity for that in the GCSE results that had yet to be handed out).

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Quote
Perplexed heads said some pupils were given higher grades than they could possibly have achieved had they actually sat the paper. Students entered for foundation-tier papers were awarded a 6 by the algorithm, when the maximum possible grade was 5.

Elsewhere there were reports that a pupil in West Yorkshire who was forecast a grade of level 1 in a subject had been upgraded to an 8 after the Ofqual moderating process. At the same school, 12 students studying a subject were awarded results that were four grades higher than the CAGs.

And then the ludicrous:
Quote
For one school the Ofqual algorithm proved to be a generous marker: after regularly having native speakers among those taking French GCSE, it didn’t have any this year. However, this year’s pupils saw their awards upgraded by up to four places because of the school’s previous excellent track record in the subject.
:dash:

Offline Londonpunter30

A bit OT for this thread, but does anyone know how the grading works.  Looking at GCSE results see,s they are now 9-1 with 9 top or the old A**.  What was a C is now a 5.

Are A levels  / college entry still based on C and above ?  If a 5 is just over half is that all you need to get into A levels ?  Is the A grade 90% and above in my day, now split into three groups or does A* mean you can get an A with a lower mark ?

Offline Adoniron

I'm an enthusiastic amateur on stats, not a professional. Have studied in the past but never worked in the field (but have used my knowledge to advantage at work for sure).

Something did go badly wrong here and not just one way. Now there are the horror stories about crazy high grades being awarded at GCSE (why they still went with the higher algorithm grades beggars belief - there was no necessity for that in the GCSE results that had yet to be handed out).

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And then the ludicrous: :dash:

Works both ways. There was also the case of the native Spanish speaking student who didnt get an A* in Spanish because nobody at his school ever had before.

Offline GingerNuts

Works both ways. There was also the case of the native Spanish speaking student who didnt get an A* in Spanish because nobody at his school ever had before.

I'm sure there are plenty of native English speakers who didn't get an A* in English.

Offline Adoniron

I'm sure there are plenty of native English speakers who didn't get an A* in English.

True but that is different to English born examiners claiming to know more about Spanish than a native Spaniard.

Offline mh

I'm sure there are plenty of native English speakers who didn't get an A* in English.

You'd hope that is true since in any country an externally examined qualification in the subject of that country's own language is hardly going to be an equivalent syllabus to that of learning a foreign language.