Erosion of the Degree qualifications' worth in the "real" world

[Payyourwaymate]

Found an interesting article about how degrees have lost value over the years in terms of learning and utility.

May be an interesting read for some.

External Link/Members Only

It's a long read though.

[sgc]

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

 Yes they certainly are: "Education Secretary Gavin Williamson is to scrap a commitment to get 50% of England's young people into university, which was reached for the first time last year."

Source: External Link/Members Only


Too many people now have meaningless degrees.

"Last week the Universities Minister Michelle Donelan attacked England's universities for "dumbing down" and "recruiting too many young people on to courses that do nothing to improve their life chances"
"He highlighted figures suggesting a third of graduates end up in non-graduate jobs, despite often paying fees of £9,250 per year."

[lostandfound]

I haven't read the article but I believe the Tories instituted the policy of getting all young people into further education in the early 90s as it kept the unemployment figures down. Not their finest hour. I would put it up there with the fuel tax accelerator, which they also invented.

Others might say the poll tax was worse than the fuel tax accelerator, and point to every successive govt continuing to try to get more young people into further education as evidence of it being a "successful" idea.

[sparkus]

If I was of that age I seriously wouldn't bother going to university now, for two reasons. 

One, the 'student experience' isn't there anymore, campuses are now generally woke central, alcohol is shunned, half the student body are foreigners who just want to study hard, you can shag students on dating apps anyway rather than attempt shit chat up lines on some honey down the student union etc.

Two, it's all a mountain of debt.

If you're so intent in having a couple of letters after your name you can get degrees online easy enough now.  In many cases you can get your employer to support you and there's degree apprenticeships as well (my nephew is looking into).

The ruling classes will always want their brats to matriculate through Oxbridge but for the rest of us I seriously wouldn't bother.

[cheshiremark]

So many of todays degrees are worthless. A friends daughter has a degree in computer game art, she works at Home Bargains stacking shelves and has done for 7 years since she left Uni. Another is doing a masters in Animation yet cannot see any job vacancies for animators as its very much a closed shop. Uni has filled their heads with all sorts, told them they can start their own business as animators yet cant even get them work experience at animation studios. Some of these uni kids struggle to run a bath let alone start  a  business from scratch with no industry knowledge or experience. The universities really do fill their heads with potentially unobtainable ambition.....

[Adoniron]

When I was at university only 10% of 18 year olds went. Now its over 45% many of them doing subjects which aren't worthy of a degree.

[rickyponting]

When i left school Uni was for those with elite exam grades and the wealthy  so i had no hope,today pretty much anyone can go,which in a way its good as there are some working class kids who go on to have good careers but as you say ,a lot get useless degrees that have no real world importance.

[timsussex]

When I was at university only 10% of 18 year olds went. Now its over 45% many of them doing subjects which aren't worthy of a degree.

Less than 5% of my age group and if you look at  Tyneside (born 1950) probably less than that.  I was the only child in my infant school class of 35 to go to UNi so that is less than 3%

I do think that Uni and colleges have a lot to answer for, my local college will turn out 50 hairdressers this year and 80 with travel and tourism 'qualifications'  There might be 10 jobs for those 130 in the area

[sub_marine]

To me the purpose of a uni is not to prepare students for work, that should be kept for the colleges to do, and uni should be to prepare young people to for research.  Sounds boring, but 50 years ago thats what they did best.  I went to uni 20 years ago, right at the end of the full grants, my 2 brothers went as well, first members of the family to ever stay on at school, never mind go to uni, grandparents were very proud.  I've never had a job where information I learned at uni was any use to me, although some of the jobs required me to have a degree.  But I think of it more that at least having a degree means I am capable of learning nonsense no matter how boring it is.  I have been able to get better paid jobs on average than my fellow time served mates, but basically used the knowledge gained as a young teenager. 

I'm in a catch 22 now though, my industry has rapidally shrunk, meaning too many people, not enough jobs.  Way too many brown nosers for me to get a look in.  But I'm also too old to get into a big firm as a graduate and work towards chartership status and go professional.  Not worked for over a year now, but with savings dwindling I'll have to make a move soon

[paper7]

All a 'Degree' will ever do is prove that you can retain and regurgitate facts under exam conditions. If you have a chance to go to one and 'get on' in live - then take it with both hands. I know somebody who is an absolute whizz at applied physics but cannot cross a road safely. a phrase comes to mind, "All intelligence, no common-sense."

[smiths]

I have experience of my son moving away to do his degree for 3 years then a 1 year Masters degree. He left with over £50k debts but has now got a very good job which he wouldn't of got without the 3 year degree.

Basically when fees came in the government of the time said the max fees would only be charged by the top Unis, absolute bollocks, most climbed on the gravy train. And it really is a gravy train, my son was actually at Uni for about 6 months out of the 12 per year, they loved students being at home studying as it saved them loads of money, from that aspect it was a fucking con. And I did go and see his principle about this and other matters, a right stuck up prick who lived in a fantasy world.

Its right students pay but they should get VFM in my view and push these Unis to pull their fingers out. My son no longer has any student debt as I paid it off. He is looking to move in with his girlfriend who is a Teacher after this virus hopefully settles down.

So in the real world my son now works in his degree was essential to have but I agree with some on this thread about too many taking worthless or nearly worthless degrees. He chose one that he knew would lead to a very good high paid job over time.

[snaitram99]

I have experience of my son moving away to do his degree for 3 years then a 1 year Masters degree. He left with over £50k debts but has now got a very good job which he wouldn't of got without the 3 year degree.

I hope he learned not to write "would of"!

[lostandfound]

I disagree with your dim view of education, but on a lighter note -

All a 'Degree' will ever do is prove that you can retain and regurgitate facts under exam conditions. If you have a chance to go to one and 'get on' in live - then take it with both hands. I know somebody who is an absolute whizz at applied physics but cannot cross a road safely. a phrase comes to mind, "All intelligence, no common-sense."

His fellow applied physics whizzes working on self driving vehicles will solve that problem for him. 

[j_181]

All a 'Degree' will ever do is prove that you can retain and regurgitate facts under exam conditions.

This really isn't true. Memorising facts makes up a small part of exams, and exams are only part of assessment. In my field, the major contributor to the final degree classification is a research thesis, researched and written over the course of the whole final year.

If you have a chance to go to one and 'get on' in live - then take it with both hands. I know somebody who is an absolute whizz at applied physics but cannot cross a road safely. a phrase comes to mind, "All intelligence, no common-sense."

Well, as long they are an applied physicist and not a road safety engineer I think all is good not really sure what your point is

[j_181]

So many of todays degrees are worthless. A friends daughter has a degree in computer game art, she works at Home Bargains stacking shelves and has done for 7 years since she left Uni. Another is doing a masters in Animation yet cannot see any job vacancies for animators as its very much a closed shop. Uni has filled their heads with all sorts, told them they can start their own business as animators yet cant even get them work experience at animation studios. Some of these uni kids struggle to run a bath let alone start  a  business from scratch with no industry knowledge or experience. The universities really do fill their heads with potentially unobtainable ambition.....

This is of course a result of the insistence by government (and Blair's Labour were almost as guilty of it as the current lot) that universities should be run as businesses according to free-market principles, in the interest of "efficiency", and the strong-arming of them into playing by cutting central funding.

Universities will then run whatever courses they think they can convince students to pay for, and that will give the best return, regardless of whether or not the country needs those graduates, and they will provide the minimum teaching they can get away with, to minimise costs.

I'm not really sure what most people want from our universities. Most seem to like the idea of fee-taking and free-market principles, but then complain about "worthless" degrees when universities do run according to these principles. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Either you have robust central funding to produce the graduates that the country needs (however that need is defined), or you run them on free-market principles, which is cheaper for the taxpayer, but comes with the caveat that they will recruit as many students as possible, offer any degree that they think they can get students to pay for, and the quality of teaching will be as low as they can get away with.

[smiths]

Would of.

[Corus Boy]

In this area I have a deal of experience in both giving and taking.

I personally feel the key is to how the courses are delivered.

A student used to go the University to, "Read History."

The key is the word 'read.'

You would be given a reading list at the start of the semester and it was your job to work through the reading list looking for the important and relevant infomation.  This would be backed up by tutorials to ensure that you were ontrack with your thoughts and learning and exams that required you to write essays about the subject, not to recount a string of facts but to demonstrate your understanding.

Now most student attend lectures where they are given the basic digest that they learn and regurgitate.  Students expect to be told each little piece of leaning that they need with many never opening a text book to get the 'broad brush' of the topic.

Statements that I have heard spoken;

"But Sir, we were never taught that!"

Answer. "No, you were expected to have discovered that for yourself."

And from the other side.

"I'm not interested in what you think, what experience and knowledge do you have to make such a statement?"

Thereby destroying all personal evaluation of the subject gained fom digesting the reading list.  Also anothe nail in the coffin of Common Sense.

I evaluated that the University wanted to put bums on seats and turn out a year of clones who could answer and exam parrot fashion.

Of course this approach does make the job of the Lecturer easier both at delivery and the marking of exam papers.

[sparkus]

I remember a few years back a woman got herself a fully validated respected MBA simply but doing lots of MOOC courses online, at a fraction of the price of a full MBA programme.

MOOCs have come a long way since then so it's probably a) easier now and b) better taught.

[DrGFreeman]

I thought the govt since blairs time had persisted with the target of 50% going to university in the name of social mobility
seems daft to me - spending huge sums on useless degrees
the debt our travel_and_tourism graduates accrue will never be repaid to the student loan company - only 30% of the debt on their books is
the govt is saddled with the cost ultimately which adds to the countries deficit

better solution would be more apprenticeships - but the govt will have to subsidise them
or to re-introduce grammar schools which genuinely did aid social mobility

[lostandfound]

Can't remember a time when it was not being said that more apprenticeships are needed, and more emphasis on valuing vocational training as Germany has done for so long. But in the UK, it seems nothing effective ever arises out of that, on a large scale.

[Adoniron]

Can't remember a time when it was not being said that more apprenticeships are needed, and more emphasis on valuing vocational training as Germany has done for so long. But in the UK, it seems nothing effective ever arises out of that, on a large scale.

British businesses aren't interested in training young people like they used to under the old apprenticeship system. Those that do take on young people expect them to be making money for the business from day one. Others let their competitors train them up and then poach them. Totally different to Germany where businesses train their staff properly and in turn the staff stay with them for longer.

[ProtocolDroid]

British businesses aren't interested in training young people like they used to under the old apprenticeship system. Those that do take on young people expect them to be making money for the business from day one. Others let their competitors train them up and then poach them. Totally different to Germany where businesses train their staff properly and in turn the staff stay with them for longer.

There is that, plus the industry sector in this country is far smaller than in Germany. It contributes only just over 20% to GDP, whereas in Germany it's over 30% (source External Link/Members Only). If the UK were to emulate Germany, we would therefore need to increase the contribution rate of industry by a whopping 50%. The UK economy is first and foremost services-based.

Just to be clear: these are not political statements, but simple facts, supported by the evidence I've linked to. 

[j_181]

I evaluated that the University wanted to put bums on seats and turn out a year of clones who could answer and exam parrot fashion.

Of course this approach does make the job of the Lecturer easier both at delivery and the marking of exam papers.

Well yes. The government has told universities "Pay your own way or go bust. Not our problem". I do not want to get into a political discussion here (it is not allowed), but suffice it to say that the current state of the higher education system is a direct result of that political choice.

[Adoniron]

There is that, plus the industry sector in this country is far smaller than in Germany. It contributes only just over 20% to GDP, whereas in Germany it's over 30% (source External Link/Members Only). If the UK were to emulate Germany, we would therefore need to increase the contribution rate of industry by a whopping 50%. The UK economy is first and foremost services-based.

Just to be clear: these are not political statements, but simple facts, supported by the evidence I've linked to.

You're absolutely right, although it is a result of a decision made in the 1980s to shift from manufacturing to services. And that was a political decision.

[lostandfound]

We were a bit shit at manufacturing. Not engineering in which the UK remained world class - which is not to suggest we were top of the pile - just up there with other folks.

Might be good at manufacturing too if we allow ourselves another chance.

[sub_marine]

We were a bit shit at manufacturing. Not engineering in which the UK remained world class - which is not to suggest we were top of the pile - just up there with other folks.

Might be good at manufacturing too if we allow ourselves another chance.

Just look at Lotus cars, doing research for car related research into things that will be used in the future, and all the main big manafacturers pay a whack for a share of that research, yet they can't make cars themselves for a profit

[hullad]

I had a good education private school till I was eleven when I failed my 11 plus and was sent to the local secondary school. The shame of it for my mother, but I did well there and was lining up for university, enginering. Me well I was into planes and wanted to join the RAF, my family was a military one mainly army and thanks to my Gran who forced my parents into letting me. Wonderful times as an armourer, loved it and was on a career path for life, then I developed psoriasis, end of career. 

Not a lot of call for making/ fixing weapons in civvy st I found, could not go to Saudi Arabia because of the disease. So I had an interest in all things historical and took an Archeology degree at Durham university. Got married whilst there, the 80s where hard to be a round. We had kids on the way and money was tight, to tight and no way was I begging for money from out parents. I got a part time job, it was different and was soon full time and left the Archeology behind it just did not pay enough. Stayed for over thirty years brought up a family, bought houses and I feel happy at what I have done, no regrets.

My son's had the chances, my eldest is not good at schooling bit but he is practical, university was never for him. I sorted him out a job at a local firm as an apprentice he now owns and runs the firm employing 30 people. My other son went to uni did a degree and joined a large retail group he is now an area manager and is doing nicely.

Uni can and does work, it should based on ability with less academic people being streamed into apprenticeships as was the case years ago. As we retire the skill set is dropping. We have a severe skills shortage now and it going to get worse, penny pinching on training is going to hit us hard in the next twenty years.

[paper7]

Uni can and does work, it should based on ability with less academic people being streamed into apprenticeships as was the case years ago. As we retire the skill set is dropping. We have a severe skills shortage now and it going to get worse, penny pinching on training is going to hit us hard in the next twenty years.

Thoroughly agree, no point putting square pegs into round holes.

[willie loman]

Thoroughly agree, no point putting square pegs into round holes.

interesting posts, but one advantage of uni is learning to live with other people etc, managing a budget, lot of ex military homeless and ex merchant navy, seldom come across ex uni types on the streets, or even in social housing etc

[wombat42]

I worked with a bunch of graduate computer programmers who were incredibly immature for example spending a lot of time making animal noises. Uni dows not necessarily make ppl any more rounded. More real world experience outside the uni campus is probably more rounding. Incidentally the human brain does not properly mature until the age of 25. An example of maturity is the ability to delay gratification (and to stop making silly animal noises at work).

[Digby232]

I know a few mid 50’s who have gone to uni! They lost their job and going to uni meant they got all the grants , which was far more than unemployment benefits and being unlikely to find a highly paid job when graduate will never pay the loans back. Great idea if you got the qualifications and get accepted..

[wombat42]

I know a few mid 50’s who have gone to uni! They lost their job and going to uni meant they got all the grants , which was far more than unemployment benefits and being unlikely to find a highly paid job when graduate will never pay the loans back. Great idea if you got the qualifications and get accepted..

U dont get grants these day. U pay tuition and maintenance fees.

[Digby232]

You only pay if you earn enough and vast majority won’t or if they do only pay back a very small amount . Then you retire. Some grants are available for poorer students or very bright can win grants still! Depends on the uni

[snaitram99]

You only pay if you earn enough and vast majority won’t or if they do only pay back a very small amount . Then you retire. Some grants are available for poorer students or very bright can win grants still! Depends on the uni

Once you hit the minimum salary for repayment, which is not particularly high, you pay 9% or something like that, which adds quite a lot to marginal rate of income tax and NI combined.