Author Topic: Revealing your ethnicity on the phone  (Read 27701 times)

Offline peter purves

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Just a follow up with regard to the legal position.

I wrote to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and after exchanging a couple of mails the situation is actually much simpler than I had realised.

"Having read through your e-mail, you would not be able to argue this issue under the Equality Act 2010.
This would not fall under a sector within the Act because it’s an individual who is offering the service and not an organisation
"

I was however asked if this related to an Escort Agency where it may be applicable, but I have never seen an agency operate any discrimination?

Wow! Thanks for going the extra step.  :hi:

When you contacted the ECHR, did you suggest to them that this is a hypothetical situation where prostitution had all its taboos removed and has become like any other job???

I think the ECHR is suggesting with our current laws prostitution falls outside the remit of the Equality laws for individuals? As for Agencies I have a sneaking feeling they may be able to be prosecuted. Though I have not seen an Agency which advertises a colour/race bar, only individual WGs.  :unknown:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 01:56:37 pm by peter purves »
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Offline peter purves

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Wtf!!
it’s not classed as rape because the guys pay for it!! Are you mad? if you ever said that to me while I was saying NO because I felt uncomfortable, because you were hurting me, because your time was up, because I fucking said NO and I meant it, NO IS NO paid or not!!
Just because your paying it’s up to the girl just like it’s upto you to walk away if you don’t like her. Sorry but that really pissed me off reading.
If that’s what some of you think I’m really going to considerate giving up escorting .

Speaking of a working girl myself and about your ethnicity, the reason may be 80% of problems I’ve known over the 15 years in the industry has came from foreign guys.
Removing Condom is the at the top, then disrespect, making the girl feel like she is a worthless cheap slut is another, then the big one is Rape.
 I myself have been raped, a girl I know got gang raped by a group of Asian men, another lady I knew got attempted raped and he badly raped other girls, I had the pleasure of standing in court and getting the bastard 13 years, these are facts I know are true then Most of the warnings I get is about foreign guys.
Now before you go down my neck I’m not a Racist I give everyone the benefit of doubt but ive got thick skin, after what I went through I don’t know how I’m not but I know there is good and bad, My partner is Turkish and they have a bad reputation but he is nothing like the stereo type so I take everyone as I find them and give everyone a chance.
But why I commented on here is the Independant girls who have had bad experiences with foreign guys or hear all the bad stories they may be just looking out for their own safety and they have every right.
The ladies doing this job main priority is safety, it’s not because of colour it’s about it’s about being safe and respected and being able to do their job feeling comfortable and giving 100%.
I’m sorry but look at the statistics of rape and grooming as underage girls  in the Sex industry and civvy life and that will answer your question.
So if you do see it on a girls profile, respect it, it’s better than seeing her and she not giving u 100% because she doesn’t feel comfortable and she is scared.
It’s just like all the men saying on here they wouldn’t see rom girls, there is some good, but a lot of Romanian girls give them a bad name and the guys and myself included won’t go near no matter how good they look that’s just life and some people don’t want to chance it, some of you guys don’t want to waste your money, some of the girls don’t want to risk thier health and safety.
I’ve also known a few girls that don’t want to see black guys because of they are known for having humongous willys, just because a lady works she may be not able to handle a big willy, Ive had a few and I think oh shit when a black guy books in my mind im thinking can I handle it, I have had to give a guy his money back once because I couldn’t.
This is me speaking of a working girl so if your going to give me a agency pimp hating response, go onto the agency thread.
I’m talking as working girl.

Thanks for the response. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

We were speaking about a hypothetical situation viz. If prostitution became like any other job in this society, or at least acceptable, would the profession have to follow the Equality laws? So could a WG advertise that she will not meet say any Asians whether they are from the Indian sub-continent, Mauritius, Caribbean etc??

My position is if we follow the Equality Act 2010 that we have now. A WG would not be able to advertise she does not wishes to meet clients of Asian descent.

However, as WW and The Doc has argued well that sex is 'special'. So some provision(s) would have to be made in the Equality Act to enable her to do so. Neither WWW or the Doc (or even the article I put forward) proposes how this could be done. Perhaps one or both of my learned friends may choose to do so later

It is complicated because even within our current work situation there is this possibility below:

"This is called discrimination by perception.

Example

A massage therapist at a spa refuses to give you a massage because he thinks you’re transsexual. This is unlawful discrimination because of gender reassignment."


Source: External Link/Members Only


Hope this clarifies - and again it is hypotheticals we are dealing with here

All the best  :hi:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:21:43 pm by peter purves »
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Offline peter purves

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It’s just like all the men saying on here they wouldn’t see rom girls, there is some good, but a lot of Romanian girls give them a bad name and the guys and myself included won’t go near no matter how good they look that’s just life and some people don’t want to chance it, some of you guys don’t want to waste your money, some of the girls don’t want to risk thier health and safety...

This is me speaking of a working girl so if your going to give me a agency pimp hating response, go onto the agency thread.
I’m talking as working girl.


I had a careful re-read of your post again. Unless the above in bold is a typographical error and/or written in haste - it sounds very strange.  :unknown:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:36:51 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

Wow! Thanks for going the extra step.  :hi:

When you contacted the ECHR, did you suggest to them that this is a hypothetical situation where prostitution had all its taboos removed and has become like any other job???

I think the ECHR is suggesting with our current laws prostitution falls outside the remit of the Equality laws for individuals? As for Agencies I have a sneaking feeling they may be able to be prosecuted. Though I have not seen an Agency which advertises a colour/race bar, only individual WGs.  :unknown:


Why has this got anything to do with a 'hypothetical situation' or 'taboos'? Someone selling sex is as an individual endeavour is legal, and moreover, according to the reply Doc Holliday got from EHCR, that individual can apparently choose to see or not see exactly who they like, including the to the exclusion of certain races.

I don't think EHCR are going to give an answer based on hypotheticals, they're going to give an answer based on the facts of current law as it stands, they are a govt. body after all.

Selling sex can indeed be considered to be a job, a provider legitimately pays tax and NI on monies received for expressly providing that service.

When you say: "I think the ECHR is suggesting with our current laws prostitution falls outside the remit of the Equality laws for individuals" what are those equality laws for individuals?

Offline peter purves

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Why has this got anything to do with a 'hypothetical situation' or 'taboos'? Someone selling sex is as an individual endeavour is legal, and moreover, according to the reply Doc Holliday got from EHCR, that individual can apparently choose to see or not see exactly who they like, including the to the exclusion of certain races.

I don't think EHCR are going to give an answer based on hypotheticals, they're going to give an answer based on the facts of current law as it stands, they are a govt. body after all.

Selling sex can indeed be considered to be a job, a provider legitimately pays tax and NI on monies received for expressly providing that service.

When you say: "I think the ECHR is suggesting with our current laws prostitution falls outside the remit of the Equality laws for individuals" what are those equality laws for individuals?

Cheers!!

We are speaking of hypotheticals because under our currents laws a WG can advertise that she does not wish to see certain clients of a particular race unlike any other 'job' in the UK, without the fear of being prosecuted, as per the information told to us by the Doc via the ECHR.

Just to add I think you misrepresent or misunderstand what the ECHR is suggesting here in the email to the Doc. WGs can advertise race bans because they fall outside the remit and not because any provisions have been made for them to do so under the Equality Law

Hope this makes some sense
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:48:46 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

Cheers!!

We are speaking of hypotheticals because under our currents laws a WG can advertise that she does not wish to see certain clients of a particular race unlike any other 'job' in the UK, without the fear of being prosecuted, as per the information told to us by the Doc via the ECHR.

Hope this clarifies


OK, so now it's accepted that a WG can legally refuse to provide services based on a customer's race.

So what hypothetical situation would make that illegal?

Offline mace-window

Ahh but they do , just early in the morning when nobody can hear them screaming  :lol:

Well in private, anything goes  :lol:.

Offline peter purves

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OK, so now it's accepted that a WG can legally refuse to provide services based on a customer's race.

So what hypothetical situation would make that illegal?

No! Please have a look at my edit to my previous post.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 02:49:51 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

I'm actually quite interested in whether a brothel would be similarly legally entitled to deny service based on race. But of course a brothel is in any case, illegal in this country, so that's a non sequitur.

As for 'Agencies', I should imagine that the WGs are considered individual service providers who effectively use the services of the agency to advertise and to manage bookings for them?

Offline peter purves

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I'm actually quite interested in whether a brothel would be similarly legally entitled to deny service based on race. But of course a brothel is in any case, illegal in this country, so that's a non sequitur.

As for 'Agencies', I should imagine that the WGs are considered individual service providers who effectively use the services of the agency to advertise and to manage bookings for them?

I do not know if agencies fall outside the remit of the law or not tbh.

However, I think Agencies per se could be prosecuted if they advertise No Asians etc. What an individual WG tells an agency, and how an agency chooses to operate behind closed doors is a different matter altogether. I am not addressing that. I am just speaking how the law operates in the UK
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:00:29 pm by peter purves »
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Offline freeze44

If anyone else had said they'd written to the E&HR Commission I'd have said they were taking a urine sample, but not only did you do that, you also had it analysed.

I guess that puts this issue to bed once and for all  :hi:.

Kin hell WW...seriously come out from up his ass!!  :D


Offline Steely Dan

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I'm actually quite interested in whether a brothel would be similarly legally entitled to deny service based on race. But of course a brothel is in any case, illegal in this country, so that's a non sequitur.

As for 'Agencies', I should imagine that the WGs are considered individual service providers who effectively use the services of the agency to advertise and to manage bookings for them?
You are saying since a brothel is not legal, that other crimes don't matter.  I don't think this is true.  Like getting Al Capone on tax evasion (OK 1920s Chicago, but still) prosecutors sometimes go after other crimes.  Even in UK, running a brothel is illegal, but it is a separate crime not to pay tax.

Offline winkywanky

Cheers!!

We are speaking of hypotheticals because under our currents laws a WG can advertise that she does not wish to see certain clients of a particular race unlike any other 'job' in the UK, without the fear of being prosecuted, as per the information told to us by the Doc via the ECHR.

Just to add I think you misrepresent or misunderstand what the ECHR is suggesting here in the email to the Doc. WGs can advertise race bans because they fall outside the remit and not because any provisions have been made for them to do so under the Equality Law

Hope this makes some sense

According to the Doc's post the ECHR are saying that WGs are allowed to deny their service based on race because they are individuals, and not an organisation or company.

I think you probably know a lot more about the minutiae of UK race laws than I do, but would you agree with that assertion?





Offline winkywanky

You are saying since a brothel is not legal, that other crimes don't matter.  I don't think this is true.  Like getting Al Capone on tax evasion (OK 1920s Chicago, but still) prosecutors sometimes go after other crimes.  Even in UK, running a brothel is illegal, but it is a separate crime not to pay tax.


No I didn't say that.

Not applicable. It's different.

The Al Capone example doesn't apply here, the FBI knew he was guilty as fuck (of murders, racketeering and breaking the prohibition laws) but they only thing they could get him on was tax evasion, so they threw the book at him for that instead.

Offline winkywanky

Kin hell WW...seriously come out from up his ass!!  :D


Well who else had the insight and initiative to actually write to them?  :unknown:

Offline peter purves

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According to the Doc's post the ECHR are saying that WGs are allowed to deny their service based on race because they are individuals, and not an organisation or company.

I think you probably know a lot more about the minutiae of UK race laws than I do, but would you agree with that assertion?

Thanks that is gracious of you to think so but I do not know (remaining humble here)

Perhaps we may need the Doc's input before we come to a conclusion. However, I think the ECHR is saying to the Doc when the Equality Laws were drawn up, prostitution was not considered to be one of those professions the law applied to because it is not accepted by society.

One problem I could forsee is that although prostitution is not illegal. Before a court, a Judge would be arguing two wrongs (prostitution and race discrimination)to get some form of compensation for the defendant (if he could prove his case obviously). The law does not work that way.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:12:42 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

I do not know if agencies fall outside the remit of the law or not tbh.

However, I think Agencies per se could be prosecuted if they advertise No Asians etc. What an individual WG tells an agency, and how an agency chooses to operate behind closed doors is a different matter altogether. I am not addressing that. I am just speaking how the law operates in the UK


Yes, I think you're probably right about Agencies not being able to advertise a race (or other) bar, but then for the reasons I stated I think that the WG could turn away a guy at the door because she's effectively self-employed.

Presumably a WG would let the Agency know who she was prepared to see, that would be in her interest, the Agency's interest, and ultimately in the interest of the punter, because the worst thing in the world is to be turned away on the doorstep. And her letting the Agency know that, and the Agency making a note of that, wouldn't be illegal IMO.

Moreover, if a punter phoned an Agency asking which girls were available, presumably on the basis of all that, they'd be legally within their rights to say to the punter 'she doesn't see X,Y,Z' if asked.

Offline peter purves

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Yes, I think you're probably right about Agencies not being able to advertise a race (or other) bar, but then for the reasons I stated I think that the WG could turn away a guy at the door because she's effectively self-employed.

Presumably a WG would let the Agency know who she was prepared to see, that would be in her interest, the Agency's interest, and ultimately in the interest of the punter, because the worst thing in the world is to be turned away on the doorstep. And her letting the Agency know that, and the Agency making a note of that, wouldn't be illegal IMO.

Moreover, if a punter phoned an Agency asking which girls were available, presumably on the basis of all that, they'd be legally within their rights to say to the punter 'she doesn't see X,Y,Z' if asked.

You have open up a whole new can of worms. Is the WG 'agency' or 'worker', not self-employed this is a different issue? This complicates the process further because the Agency could argue she is not a 'worker' but an Agency staff and she chose not to see the client on the grounds of race, and therefore she should be prosecuted.

Hypothetical of course: The court will have to work out the definition of 'worker' and 'agency staff' and apply the law accordingly. This is well beyond my remit to start even guessing how things might unfold. However, I can say if the court thinks she is a worker of the agency then the agency will be prosecuted.

Finally, and it seems very difficult to convey but I will try. The way the law operates in the UK is that it aims to give equal access to services for ALL races. This is the goal.
A WG may have a fear of say Asian clients but to have fear of every single one of them becomes a different issue altogether. As long as any WG can provide a non-discriminatory reason then she will be allowed not to see Asian clients - in our hypothetical world.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:22:55 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

Thanks that is gracious of you to think so but I do not know (remaining humble here)

Perhaps we may need the Doc's input before we come to a conclusion. However, I think the ECHR is saying to the Doc when the Equality Laws were drawn up, prostitution was not considered to be one of those professions the law applied to because it is not accepted by society.

One problem I could forsee is that although prostitution is not illegal. Before a court, a Judge would be arguing two wrongs (prostitution and race discrimination)to get some form of compensation for the defendant (if he could prove his case obviously). The law does not work that way.


Putting it bluntly, I am White and very rarely subject to discrimination, you (as far as I know) are Black and are almost certainly subject to discrimination more than I am. I consider myself a pretty good citizen but with the best will in the world, you're gonna be (or should be) more clued up on this shit than I am!  ;)  :D


"Perhaps we may need the Doc's input before we come to a conclusion. However, I think the ECHR is saying to the Doc when the Equality Laws were drawn up, prostitution was not considered to be one of those professions the law applied to because it is not accepted by society."


...you're right, more input from the Doc would be welcome when he has a chance (or the inclination) but from what he says - and I think he quoted from his response from the EHCR - WGs do not fall under the legislation because they are individuals. That sounds simple enough to me? Nothing to do with prostitution per se.

Whether you think that ought to be the case is a different matter. As you know from what I've said previously, I think it ought to be a choice for the WG to make, I know you see it differently.
 

Offline peter purves

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Putting it bluntly, I am White and very rarely subject to discrimination, you (as far as I know) are Black and are almost certainly subject to discrimination more than I am. I consider myself a pretty good citizen but with the best will in the world, you're gonna be (or should be) more clued up on this shit than I am!  ;)  :D


"Perhaps we may need the Doc's input before we come to a conclusion. However, I think the ECHR is saying to the Doc when the Equality Laws were drawn up, prostitution was not considered to be one of those professions the law applied to because it is not accepted by society."


...you're right, more input from the Doc would be welcome when he has a chance (or the inclination) but from what he says - and I think he quoted from his response from the EHCR - WGs do not fall under the legislation because they are individuals. That sounds simple enough to me? Nothing to do with prostitution per se.

Whether you think that ought to be the case is a different matter. As you know from what I've said previously, I think it ought to be a choice for the WG to make, I know you see it differently.

Race has nothing to do with it because it is just a matter of having received the training. I know many White people who have received and understand how the Equality laws is meant to operate far more than I do. It does not operate in the common sense way most people think, whether Black, White, Asian, Jew etc.

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Offline winkywanky

You have open up a whole new can of worms. Is the WG 'agency' or 'worker', not self-employed this is a different issue? This complicates the process further because the Agency could argue she is not a 'worker' but an Agency staff and she chose not to see the client on the grounds of race, and therefore she should be prosecuted.

Hypothetical of course: The court will have to work out the definition of 'worker' and 'agency staff' and apply the law accordingly. This is well beyond my remit to start even guessing how things might unfold. However, I can say if the court thinks she is a worker of the agency then the agency will be prosecuted.

Finally, and it seems very difficult to convey but I will try. The way the law operates in the UK is that it aims to give equal access to services for ALL races. This is the goal.
A WG may have a fear of say Asian clients but to have fear of every single one of them becomes a different issue altogether. As long as any WG can provide a non-discriminatory reason then she will be allowed not to see Asian clients - in our hypothetical world.


She's definitely not staff, she doesn't have sick pay or holiday pay, and the Agency don't pay Employer's NI contributions. She doesn't work for the Agency.

I totally get what UK law tries to address in terms of equality (and quite right too). Of course we should all be treated the same.

But it seems that as an individual service provider (regardless of the service), they get to choose who they supply that service to.

That seems to be the law.

Offline winkywanky

Race has nothing to do with it because it is just a matter of having received the training. I know many White people who have received and understand how the Equality laws is meant to operate far more than I do. It does not operate in the common sense way most people think, whether Black, White, Asian, Jew etc.


Without telling you who I used to work for, it was a very big 'corporate-type' organisation and for the last few years I was there we would have the corporate videos to watch every year, telling us about health & safety, dealing with minors, equality, the whole bit. So yes, I have an appreciation. But my upbringing also tells me to treat everyone right, I am a do the right thing kind of guy, sometimes boringly so (as many her will attest to). Basic human decency is what I'm talking about, but these days we have to be told officially, and I can fully understand why.

I don't know all the ins and outs about race law, it just seems to me that this stuff would be more of an issue to people who have experienced discrimination, that's normal. And therefore that they would probably know more than myself.

So my appreciation of it is the common sense bit, not so much the legal bit.

This whole discussion is very interesting though, hopefully we're all learning something, I know I am!  :D

Offline peter purves

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She's definitely not staff, she doesn't have sick pay or holiday pay, and the Agency don't pay Employer's NI contributions. She doesn't work for the Agency.

I totally get what UK law tries to address in terms of equality (and quite right too). Of course we should all be treated the same.

But it seems that as an individual service provider (regardless of the service), they get to choose who they supply that service to.

That seems to be the law.

Cheers! I did not say 'staff'. The legal term is whether she is a 'worker' and the other is she 'agency?' This is one of the things the court will have to determine if they were going to prosecute race discrimination - in our hypotheticals

Agency workers – what you need to know

External Link/Members Only

And more importantly, as I was suggesting above

"Liability depends upon the relationship between the employer and the agency. Any acts of discrimination by the agency that are carried out with the express or implied authority of the employer will result in both entities being jointly liable".

External Link/Members Only

Though this was written before the Equality Act 2010 but the principles of law remains the same. It's the first thing I copied and pasted.



« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:50:08 pm by peter purves »
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Offline sunnyj

It’s just like all the men saying on here they wouldn’t see rom girls
Not all maybe some.

Offline peter purves

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Without telling you who I used to work for, it was a very big 'corporate-type' organisation and for the last few years I was there we would have the corporate videos to watch every year, telling us about health & safety, dealing with minors, equality, the whole bit. So yes, I have an appreciation. But my upbringing also tells me to treat everyone right, I am a do the right thing kind of guy, sometimes boringly so (as many her will attest to). Basic human decency is what I'm talking about, but these days we have to be told officially, and I can fully understand why.

I don't know all the ins and outs about race law, it just seems to me that this stuff would be more of an issue to people who have experienced discrimination, that's normal. And therefore that they would probably know more than myself.

So my appreciation of it is the common sense bit, not so much the legal bit.

This whole discussion is very interesting though, hopefully we're all learning something, I know I am!  :D

It is interesting indeed and it is good to know how the law operates IMHO

As for who gets into it. People like yourself who have a strong sense of justice whether White, Blacks etc. Or it can be by chance you get chosen to be a Shop Steward Rep and then you find yourself on all sorts of Employment Law training. Or it can be as you suggested that one has been discriminated against which then  forces one to become more cognizant regarding these matters.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:57:33 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky

Cheers! I did not say 'staff'. The legal term is whether she is a 'worker' and the other is she 'agency?' This is one of the things the court will have to determine if they were going to prosecute of race discrimination - in our hypotheticals

Agency workers – what you need to know

External Link/Members Only

And more importantly, as I was suggesting above

"Liability depends upon the relationship between the employer and the agency. Any acts of discrimination by the agency that are carried out with the express or implied authority of the employer will result in both entities being jointly liable".

External Link/Members Only

Though this was written before the Equality Act 2010 but the principles of law remains the same. It's the first thing I copied and pasted.


OK, so how many 'Agency WGs' have contracts with Agencies?

I'd say absolutely none.

Following your link:

You’re an agency worker if all the following things apply to you:

    there’s a contract between you and an agency

    you’re temporarily supplied to an employer by the agency

    when you’re working on a job your work is controlled by the employer

    you’re not self-employed



None of those apply to an 'Agency WG' IMO.

And referring to your second link, none of that applies to a WG either. That's all to do with employers using agencies to supply them with workers.

The WG does not work for the Agency, none of this applies.

Offline peter purves

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OK, so how many 'Agency WGs' have contracts with Agencies?

I'd say absolutely none.

Following your link:

You’re an agency worker if all the following things apply to you:

    there’s a contract between you and an agency

    you’re temporarily supplied to an employer by the agency

    when you’re working on a job your work is controlled by the employer

    you’re not self-employed



None of those apply to an 'Agency WG' IMO.

And referring to your second link, none of that applies to a WG either. That's all to do with employers using agencies to supply them with workers.

The WG does not work for the Agency, none of this applies.

Please remember we are speaking hypothetically and not how things are currently. Though sometimes I will admit the conversation does move from the hypothetical to the current

If prostitution became like other jobs, there would have to be a written contract between the agencies and the WGs.

As I said it becomes very complicated - in this hypothetical scenario - because is she now an employee, agency staff or self-employed??

If the court deems an employee then the agency is responsible, if she is agency staff, or considered to be self-employed, then the WG will be liable in our hypothetical.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:14:01 pm by peter purves »
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Offline millbush


Without telling you who I used to work for, it was a very big 'corporate-type' organisation
So my appreciation of it is the common sense bit, not so much the legal bit.



Really?
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Offline freeze44

Please remember we are speaking hypothetically and not how things are currently. Though sometimes I will admit the conversation does move from the hypothetical to the current

If prostitution became like other jobs, there would have to be a written contract between the agencies and the WGs.

As I said it becomes very complicated - in this hypothetical scenario - because is she now an employee, agency staff or self-employed??

If the court deems an employee then the agency is responsible, if she is agency staff, or considered to be self-employed, then the WG will be liable in our hypothetical.

Well put. And you don't need a written contract for a contract to be accepted in law, for example a verbal agreement.

Offline Payyourwaymate

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Thanks for the response. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

We were speaking about a hypothetical situation viz. If prostitution became like any other job in this society, or at least acceptable, would the profession have to follow the Equality laws? So could a WG advertise that she will not meet say any Asians whether they are from the Indian sub-continent, Mauritius, Caribbean etc??

My position is if we follow the Equality Act 2010 that we have now. A WG would not be able to advertise she does not wishes to meet clients of Asian descent.

However, as WW and The Doc has argued well that sex is 'special'. So some provision(s) would have to be made in the Equality Act to enable her to do so. Neither WWW or the Doc (or even the article I put forward) proposes how this could be done. Perhaps one or both of my learned friends may choose to do so later

It is complicated because even within our current work situation there is this possibility below:

"This is called discrimination by perception.

Example

A massage therapist at a spa refuses to give you a massage because he thinks you’re transsexual. This is unlawful discrimination because of gender reassignment."


Source: External Link/Members Only


Hope this clarifies - and again it is hypotheticals we are dealing with here

All the best  :hi:

You are too kind PP. That was a very well measured response to that random emotional outburst of text. I would not have even responded to that wall of text.

Offline peter purves

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Hope this might be of some help

Employment Rights

External Link/Members Only

There are 3 main types of employment status under the law:

employee
worker
self-employed
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Offline peter purves

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You are too kind PP. That was a very well measured response to that random emotional outburst of text. I would not have even responded to that wall of text.

Cheers! I try  :P

The one paragraph that I highlighted makes the commentator sound male  :unknown:
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Offline winkywanky

Please remember we are speaking hypothetically and not how things are currently. Though sometimes I will admit the conversation does move from the hypothetical to the current

If prostitution became like other jobs, there would have to be a written contract between the agencies and the WGs.

As I said it becomes very complicated - in this hypothetical scenario - because is she now an employee, agency staff or self-employed??

If the court deems an employee then the agency is responsible, if she is agency staff, or considered to be self-employed, then the WG will be liable in our hypothetical.


There must be other situations where a similar informal worker-agency relationship exists. So there doesn't always have to be a written contract where employment law becomes involved It's not just about prostitution.

A WG on an Agency's 'books' isn't employed by them, therefore neither are bound by employment law in the relationship between them.


Offline peter purves

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Well put. And you don't need a written contract for a contract to be accepted in law, for example a verbal agreement.

Thank you for pointing this out because you are right - and it is very important to the discussion.
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Online Doc Holliday

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WTF?

This has nothing to do with hypotheticals. I wrote that I had been refused sexual services on a number of occasions on grounds of my ethnicity. This had been verbal (by phone) and written. I was then asked for more detail.
 
Is this through an escort service or just services offered by individuals?
What organisation is it called?
When were the last time you were refused a service?
Have you raised any complaints?
What outcome are you looking for?

I replied saying it was individuals advertising on Adultwork. I waffled about the outcome and mentioned sexual offences etc. Irrelevant it seems as the reply was short and sweet as my previous post.

"Having read through your e-mail, you would not be able to argue this issue under the Equality Act 2010.
This would not fall under a sector within the Act because it’s an individual who is offering the service and not an organisation
"

This has nothing to do with Prostitution per se, the Act simply does not apply to individuals.

The EHRC is only an advisory body and any specific case has to be pursued via independent legal services and I was advised I could seek further advice should I wish to do so.

You can argue till the cows come home about what constitutes an organisation, but the advice appears to be that those prostitutes advertising on Adultwork were deemed to be Individuals and therefore I could not argue the issue under the Act.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:30:38 pm by Doc Holliday »

Offline peter purves

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There must be other situations where a similar informal worker-agency relationship exists. So there doesn't always have to be a written contract where employment law becomes involved It's not just about prostitution.

A WG on an Agency's 'books' isn't employed by them, therefore neither are bound by employment law in the relationship between them.

Again - it is hypotheticals. Currently WGs are not employed by Agencies.

Hypothetical: However, if prostitution became like any other job, the court would have to work out what is the relationship between the WG and an escort agency ie the contract and from there proceed to see who might be liable for discrimination? This is how a court case would unfold using our current Equality Law BUT hypothetically speaking of course.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:32:32 pm by peter purves »
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Offline peter purves

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You can argue till the cows come home about what constitutes an organisation, but the advice appears to be that those prostitutes advertising on Adultwork were deemed to be Individuals and therefore I could not argue the issue under the Act.

Whether you realise it or not you are giving support to what I said a WG can do whatever she likes with regard to race because those laws do not apply to her because she falls outside the pale of society with regard to the Equality Law.

Furthermore, I would add that you may have misunderstood the ECHR, because if we follow things through to their logical conclusion no sole trader can be liable for discrimantion in the UK because they are not an organisation, when obviously this is not the case
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:36:58 pm by peter purves »
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Online Doc Holliday

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Whether you realise it or not you are giving support to what I said a WG can do whatever she likes with regard to race because those laws do not apply to her because she falls outside the pale of society with regard to the Equality Law

No she falls outside the Equality Act not because she is a prostitute, but because she is operating as an individual.

Offline peter purves

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No she falls outside the Equality Act not because she is a prostitute, but because she is operating as an individual.

No! Please see my edit
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Offline winkywanky

Again - it is hypotheticals. Currently WGs are not employed by Agencies.

Hypothetical: However, if prostitution became like any other job, the court would have to work out what is the relationship between the WG and an escort agency ie the contract and from there proceed to see who might be liable for discrimination? This is how a court case would unfold using our current Equality Law BUT hypothetically speaking of course.


I think you need to lobby your MP for a change in the law, or get a Human Rights lawyer to take up your case. And yes, they would do this anonymously.

You're using 'hypothetical' merely to argue for what you want, not what is.

As the law stands you can't have what you want. You'd need to start up a test case.

Offline winkywanky

Whether you realise it or not you are giving support to what I said a WG can do whatever she likes with regard to race because those laws do not apply to her because she falls outside the pale of society with regard to the Equality Law.

Furthermore, I would add that you may have misunderstood the ECHR, because if we follow things through to their logical conclusion no sole trader can be liable for discrimantion in the UK because they are not an organisation, when obviously this is not the case


No, it has nothing to do with the 'stigma around prostitution', it has nothing to do with 'taboo', it has to do with the LAW.

Offline winkywanky

In all seriousness Mr. P, I think you should write to the EHRC.

In actual fact I would go as far as to say you should include a link to this thread. I'm actually serious.

You feel strongly about this, it would take you literally 10mins to write that email.

Offline peter purves

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No, it has nothing to do with the 'stigma around prostitution', it has nothing to do with 'taboo', it has to do with the LAW.

Sorry what has what to do with the law?

Are you also suggesting that a person working individually (ie sole trader) cannot be liable to discrimination under UK laws??

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Offline peter purves

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In all seriousness Mr. P, I think you should write to the EHRC.

In actual fact I would go as far as to say you should include a link to this thread. I'm actually serious.

You feel strongly about this, it would take you literally 10mins to write that email.


I think the main thing here is cognitive dissonance. I suspect you have had the firm belief view that WGs should be able to see whatever race they want to because of the issue of consent. However, you have not carefully thought it through with regard to the Equality Act and you are now reluctant to let go of your belief.

I suggest this because why would you ask me to do the impossible and lobby my MP which is a ridiculous thing to suggest so far in a well-reasoned conversation. So much for learning new things then. I will not take that comment seriously now.

We best leave it there - if it is going to descend to this level. Especially as the Doc went out of his way to contact the EHRC.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 05:02:47 pm by peter purves »
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Offline freeze44

WTF?

This has nothing to do with hypotheticals. I wrote that I had been refused sexual services on a number of occasions on grounds of my ethnicity. This had been verbal (by phone) and written. I was then asked for more detail.
 
Is this through an escort service or just services offered by individuals?
What organisation is it called?
When were the last time you were refused a service?
Have you raised any complaints?
What outcome are you looking for?

I replied saying it was individuals advertising on Adultwork. I waffled about the outcome and mentioned sexual offences etc. Irrelevant it seems as the reply was short and sweet as my previous post.

"Having read through your e-mail, you would not be able to argue this issue under the Equality Act 2010.
This would not fall under a sector within the Act because it’s an individual who is offering the service and not an organisation
"

This has nothing to do with Prostitution per se, the Act simply does not apply to individuals.

The EHRC is only an advisory body and any specific case has to be pursued via independent legal services and I was advised I could seek further advice should I wish to do so.

You can argue till the cows come home about what constitutes an organisation, but the advice appears to be that those prostitutes advertising on Adultwork were deemed to be Individuals and therefore I could not argue the issue under the Act.

So now your an expert on this to?  :lol: A little knowledge a dangerous thing and think you be best of having the discussion here rather than seeking answers externally  :crazy:

In law it's quite simple what constitutes an organisation.  :hi:

Offline winkywanky

Sorry what has what to do with the law?

Are you also suggesting that a person working individually (ie sole trader) cannot be liable to discrimination under UK laws??

It has everything to do with the Law, apparently as described by EHCR.

I don't know about sole traders, and I don't know whether a WG would necessarily fall under into that category.

I seriously think you should put all this to the EHCR.

Offline peter purves

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It has everything to do with the Law, apparently as described by EHCR.

I don't know about sole traders, and I don't know whether a WG would necessarily fall under into that category.

I seriously think you should put all this to the EHCR.

Cheers! However, I have better things to do than put it to the ECHR

Anybody who works individually is a sole trader.

So I pose the question to you again - but in a different way?

Are you saying that anybody working individually within the UK is exempt from being liable for discrimination??

« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 05:10:17 pm by peter purves »
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Offline winkywanky


I think the main thing here is cognitive dissonance. I suspect you have had the firm belief view that WGs should be able to see whatever race they want to because of the issue of consent. However, you have not carefully thought it through with regard to the Equality Act and you are now reluctant to let go of your belief.

I suggest this because why would you ask me to do the impossible and lobby my MP which is a ridiculous thing to suggest so far in a well-reasoned conversation. So much for learning new things then. I will not take that comment seriously now.

We best leave it there - if it is going to descend to this level. Especially as the Doc went out of his way to contact the EHRC.


You're forgetting that I also specifically suggested you should write to the EHCR yourself.

And then you can raise all your concerns yourself, exactly as you would wish to.

Why don't you?

But why can't you lobby your MP? You could do it under a false name, because of the stigma around prostitution which you yourself have stated several times.

What level do you think I have descended to?  :unknown:




 

Offline winkywanky

Cheers! However, I have better things to do than put it to the ECHR

Anybody who works individually is a sole trader.

So I pose the question to you again - but in a different way?

Are you saying that anybody working individually within the UK is exempt from being liable for discrimination??

No, I'm not saying that, the ECHR apparently did.

Why on earth not write to the EHCR? Are you afraid they'll tell you what you don't want to hear?