Author Topic: The debate over selling sex in Scotland  (Read 13696 times)

Offline casio

Saw this on the BBC News website, might be of interest:

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Offline globewindsailor

The committee was asking questions to Ash Reagan today in what looks like the last session before they create a report for the MSPs to vote on at stage 1. There is conflicting evidence on whether the bill would increase or decrease safety which Ash advised her evidence good, theirs bad and that selling is impossible to make safe and the aim is to reduce demand. Which would increase safety. That the basic principle of this is VAWG should mean the bill should be supported and that just because some women choose to do this(2% she claims), that we should not ignore the rest. Lots of sensationist wording from her amongst some sensible well meant thoughts on the subject, but clearly bias against being subjective. I like the bit where she was asked about murders and basically dismissed it, but then was going on about them later on in support of her argument.

The goverment made a statement previously that they support the bill in principle, but in practice believe it is not workable in it's current form and needs a lot of admendments and stakeholder involvement before they could think of supporting it. Adding that they don't believe that due to the large work needed that the bill will have time to get through before the election and that they won't commit to carring it into the next parliment. They remain neutral awaiting what admendments Ash will bring forward, but won't help her while also mentioning they have been doing work on the matter themselves to bulid a compreshive and robust law. Ash mentioned two admendments specifically in response and others were also being worked on to hope that MSPs vote this through and get goverment support.

Basically if not now, soon is what the SNP say and mind that there is cross party support in this bill(mostly Tory with some labour/snp/independents). Lib Dems and Greens oppose.

Offline JRWK

The demand will always be there no matter what.  It will only drive the supply underground,
where the women will have no way to screen any customers as they now do.

You only have to look at the boats crossing the channel daily to recognise the fact that there will always be criminal gangs ready to supply anything where there is a demand.

Women will be less safe, Regan really should be trying to stamp out trafficking itself!!

Offline Fookmefooku

So say this passes and punters get criminalised, what the hell do we do? I'm assuming AW will become a wasteland. And with the Age Verification, the government will have a large number of punters details. Just hope and pray you don't get caught?

Offline FBman78

It gets passed and I will stop punting on sites which require my details.  Some sites still out there which don't need your details.

Offline bluetable

Ash Regan is living in a total fairytale world.  Her example is absolutely fucking mental — obviously not thoroughly thought through because it’s totally imaginary and woudln’t work in real life.

She sayd punters can ‘‘say to them 'you know if you don't do what I say I'll tell the police about you' and so on, whereas it turns around in the Nordic model. The women in prostitution can say to the punter: 'No I'm not going to comply with that request, and I can call the police on you'.  "It doesn't sound like a lot but that is a subtle power shift which I think gives more security and more safety to those working in prostitution.”’’

Absolute fantasy — does she think that bad punters try to blackmail the girls into doing what they want?  And that if they don’t succeed that the threat of the police being phoned will be enough to scare them off?  That’s bananas.  She hasn’t thought it through.  If the girl does threaten to call the police on the punter, does Regan just think the punter will stand there and let her?

If she had any common sense and experience of the real world, she’d know that bad men will just do what they want and won’t be scared off by a threat to phone the police.  She lives in a total bubble sadly, coudln’t be more removed from the world these girls live in.


It gets passed and I will stop punting on sites which require my details.  Some sites still out there which don't need your details.
I reckon your Vivastreets and others will disappear pretty quickly if this does get passed, or will implement some kind of login scheme to avoid falling foul of the law by accident.  This law would likely kill the legitimate industry up here entirely, and leave only a much less visible, much riskier underside.  Some of it might be hidden in plain sight on Reddit or IG, but most non-nutty punters will just give up I think.  I wouldn’t risk it.


Offline KatieEdinburgh

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So say this passes and punters get criminalised, what the hell do we do? I'm assuming AW will become a wasteland. And with the Age Verification, the government will have a large number of punters details. Just hope and pray you don't get caught?

Several options

Stick to your known regulars. Use a VPN to use porn or escort sites, no need to give out info

Or use their phone number from adverts to text directly

Offline 1980Tam

This is typical modern SNP , bring in law changes , change the dynamics of the trade , this drives deeper underground and creates a more dangerous environment for everybody involved . Did good old Margo Mcdonald of said party not help the street workers years ago , then it was overturned ?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2025, 09:19:29 pm by 1980Tam »

Offline Problem Child

After speaking to a sw’er who has worked in Norway my attitude to this has softened somewhat.
In Norway the law is only really applied when punters’ become aggressive/violent. It gives sw’ers more protection. Obvs they’re not really serious about protecting women and the law won’t protect the most vulnerable (sw’ers here illegally) as they’ll be too scared to contact the authorities, although full decriminalisation wouldn’t change that either.

Offline KatieEdinburgh

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It gives sw’ers more protection.

It definitely would not give us more protection, normally  the opposite. Increased unreported violence, increase in murder rates in the countries with the Nordic model

Sadly the SP you’re talking to doesn’t represent the majority of us if she believes its a good idea  :wackogirl:

Offline timmy1

What are the chances this gets through?, seems to crop up every year or so to no result  :unknown:

Offline mrwhite

What are the chances this gets through?, seems to crop up every year or so to no result  :unknown:

But every time, it gets just a few more votes and as soon as they have a small majority that is it.

I liken the SNP to a child, who, when told "NO" by one parent scampers of and badgers the other parent in the hope they will say "Yes"

It is the same with IndyRef.  They were told No in the 70s (when it was said to be a once in a lifetime vote) they were told No again in the 2010's (when it was said to be a once in a lifetime vote) and now they are pushing the question again!

Offline Strawberry

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Did anyone take part in the consultation earlier this year? Nordic model is an ongoing concern, also Nordic model in other countries has including clauses that make it difficult for SPs to operate eg accommodation.


Offline Tom1976

So say this passes and punters get criminalised, what the hell do we do? I'm assuming AW will become a wasteland. And with the Age Verification, the government will have a large number of punters details. Just hope and pray you don't get caught?

I can see Carlisle and Newcastle becoming very popular for day trips.

Offline Lilywhite

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Did anyone take part in the consultation earlier this year? Nordic model is an ongoing concern, also Nordic model in other countries has including clauses that make it difficult for SPs to operate eg accommodation.

A lot of us Scottish WGs did.

Offline the fitter

It was introduced in Northern Ireland a few years ago, and I don't think it has made much difference.

Offline globewindsailor

So say this passes and punters get criminalised, what the hell do we do? I'm assuming AW will become a wasteland. And with the Age Verification, the government will have a large number of punters details. Just hope and pray you don't get caught?
In terms of banning websites or attacks against them I think holyrood doesn't have power here, but Westminster through online safety act and crime and policing bill would certaintly look to curtail this. There is support there for a similar bill to ban the buying of sex.

With the Scottish police though I've no idea what powers they'd have to get data from the sites to investigate any crimes.

Offline globewindsailor

This is typical modern SNP , bring in law changes , change the dynamics of the trade , this drives deeper underground and creates a more dangerous environment for everybody involved . Did good old Margo Mcdonald of said party not help the street workers years ago , then it was overturned ?

Independent Ex-Alba, Ex-SNP MSP Ash Reagan has brought the bill, but it needed cross party support to get on the cards.

Is it SNP policy though for this to happen. They just have not been able to get it done and it's pratically disappeared from anything official. You hear the language spoken sometimes from them that mirrors things they've said in the past relating to it. Usually around talk of violence against women.

No idea if Labour would go for it, sneaking thought they would. Still surprised the most supporters of the bill were Tory.

Offline JRWK

Maybe they should be concentrating on domestic abuse !!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2025, 01:58:44 pm by JRWK »

Offline big-al93

I can see Carlisle and Newcastle becoming very popular for day trips.

I can see the appeal of Newcastle, but Carlisle?? Unless it suddenly gets huge amounts of Scottish SP's touring there (or English coming up close to Scottish border as an opportunity) I doubt it'll become a punting Haven. The current offerings there do not really appeal.

Offline Strawberry

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A lot of us Scottish WGs did.

Non-Scottish SPs did too, as I did. Many punters do not know what Nordic Model is, I do mention it if appropriate and relevant.

Offline mrwhite

Did anyone take part in the consultation earlier this year? Nordic model is an ongoing concern, also Nordic model in other countries has including clauses that make it difficult for SPs to operate eg accommodation.
I didn't  :( I didn't realise there was a consultation until about 24 hours after it closed.

Offline S.X. MacHine

Not likely to become law by May election, after which Regan will be out on her moralistic arse, hopefully.
In Northern Ireland, where sex work has been a crime for years, the police do not enforce the law. Our overstretched Scottish Police May take the same line.
There are major evidential issues in bringing a successful prosecution. The punter or the SP would need to admit to having had sex, which they wouldn’t do. As Regan admits, the whole charade is about ‘sending a signal’ that sex work is bad.
If unemployed after May, Ash Regan might consider an honest career in, say, sex work. She’s not bad looking, in a milfy way. Not much personality, though.

Offline globewindsailor

Not likely to become law by May election, after which Regan will be out on her moralistic arse, hopefully.
In Northern Ireland, where sex work has been a crime for years, the police do not enforce the law. Our overstretched Scottish Police May take the same line.
There are major evidential issues in bringing a successful prosecution. The punter or the SP would need to admit to having had sex, which they wouldn’t do. As Regan admits, the whole charade is about ‘sending a signal’ that sex work is bad.
If unemployed after May, Ash Regan might consider an honest career in, say, sex work. She’s not bad looking, in a milfy way. Not much personality, though.
I'm of the same mind it's not got the time, but got could go past the 1st stage. But we need to work out who else could bring it back.

They naturally discussed other countries models and to increase enforcement this bill would be different to Northern Ireland in that you'd be guilty if there was intent to pay rather than actually being caught red handed. I imagine this still needs a few things to go the polices way, but one admendment that is being made is to change the definition of a sex act to mirror current sex crimes. Basically what I'm saying is just because it works one way in another country doesn't mean it will be the same here. Scary thing I saw in the northern ireland board is tiktokers following punters around near massage parlours. There is that giving people free license...

Offline Problem Child

It definitely would not give us more protection, normally  the opposite. Increased unreported violence, increase in murder rates in the countries with the Nordic model
Do have evidence for this on an individual country basis? (not a challenge,I’m genuinely interested)
I appreciate what I was saying re Norway was purely anecdotal, but it’s from someone who’s head is 100% screwed on and who’s opinion I would trust..
Obviously a LOT depends on the final details of the law and how the police 🐽 choose to enforce.

Offline Squire Haggard

This will not deter the idiot called Ash Regan. Her main aim is to spoil men's fun.
A search ''Has the nordic model reduced violence against prostitutes'' reveals..............

''Conclusion
Empirical evidence overwhelmingly indicates that the Nordic model has not reduced violence against sex workers and, in many cases, has increased vulnerability. While street prostitution or visible public activity may decline, the hidden nature of remaining sex work raises safety risks. Reports from multiple countries consistently show that criminalising clients pushes sex workers into riskier, less visible work environments and limits access to protective measures, including police and health services.''

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Offline mrwhite

Our overstretched Scottish Police May take the same line.

More likely they will see it as an easy way to improve their crime statistics - after all it is far easier to stake out a known SPs address and then bust the guys coming out than it is to actually do something about real problems like robbery or drug dealing!

Offline Lilywhite

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Set rates to 0 on AW and just invite people over for some fun.
Oops what's this...? Someone decided to accidentally leave behind some cash.  :D

Or just film every punt and claim it's porn.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2025, 08:50:23 pm by Lilywhite »

Offline Squire Haggard

Set rates to 0 on AW and just invite people over for some fun.
Oops what's this...? Someone decided to accidentally leave behind some cash.  :D

Or just film every punt and claim it's porn.
:drinks:

Offline S.X. MacHine

What position will ladyboys be in, if this bill passes? (Ambiguity intended). The Supreme Court has found that sex refers to biological sex, so, logically, they should be exempt from legislation outlawing ‘violence against women’.

Offline Strawberry

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What position will ladyboys be in, if this bill passes? (Ambiguity intended). The Supreme Court has found that sex refers to biological sex, so, logically, they should be exempt from legislation outlawing ‘violence against women’.

Depends on the wording, this is one of the criticisms and of course there are male sex workers too.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2025, 09:27:20 am by Strawberry »

Offline Squire Haggard

Depends on the wording, this is one of the criticisms and of course there are male sex workers too.

Ash has made a hash of it. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

Offline globewindsailor

What position will ladyboys be in, if this bill passes? (Ambiguity intended). The Supreme Court has found that sex refers to biological sex, so, logically, they should be exempt from legislation outlawing ‘violence against women’.
Unsure if the law would be "Men buying" rather than "Men buying women". It's not a definition I remember if it has been discussed. If the former then technically the public or organisations could complain about men buying men and I'm unsure on what the law is on men selling.

I'd imagine based on how it works currently Trans SP's wanting to leave the industry might get refused these extra service. In pratice I'm sure they would be signposted to the right areas, but not the ones Ash is talking about.

Offline Lilywhite

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Unsure if the law would be "Men buying" rather than "Men buying women". It's not a definition I remember if it has been discussed.

And this is exactly the type of semantic reason why it won't get through. Imagine the minefield the Scottish Government would have to go through when SWers start claiming all their clients identify as women and thus, the law doesn't apply.

Offline Hottest Kat

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I put this to my chatgpt and it said it had success in cleaning up and reducing street walkers.
I asked it to remove street walkers from the equation and this is what it said:
Where has the Nordic model been successful for non-street sex workers?

Short, honest answer:
There is no country where the Nordic model has been clearly demonstrated to be successful for non-street (indoor, escort, online, independent) sex workers.

No government or peer-reviewed study has shown consistent, evidence-based improvements in:

Safety

Health outcomes

Legal protection

Economic stability

Autonomy

Ability to report abuse

Access to housing or services


for non-street sex workers under the Nordic/sex-buyer criminalisation model.


---

What has actually been observed for non-street workers

In countries using the Nordic model (e.g. Sweden, Norway, France, Northern Ireland, Iceland):

Research and sex-worker testimony commonly report:

• Clients are more fearful → rushed, secretive meetings
• Less ability to screen / vet clients safely
• More isolation
• Increased housing precarity (landlords risk charges)
• More reliance on unsafe third parties
• Higher stigma
• Less reporting of violence (fear of police or immigration consequences)
• Movement to encrypted platforms and hidden locations
• No clear reduction in worker numbers

These are not indicators of policy success for the workers themselves.


---

Why claims of “success” don’t apply to non-street work

When governments or campaigners say the Nordic model was “successful,” they usually mean one of these (none of which prove benefit to non-street workers):

Change in public attitudes

Reduction in visible sex markets

Political/ideological alignment with abolition

Possible reduction in some forms of trafficking


They do not typically measure:

Indoor worker safety

Mental or physical health

Ability to leave exploitation

Quality of life

Legal or housing security


Without those metrics, “success” for non-street workers cannot be claimed in any meaningful, evidence-based way.


---

Bottom line

If your question is strictly:

> Where has the Nordic model been successful for non-street sex workers?



The accurate, evidence-based answer is:

Nowhere has it been shown to clearly or consistently succeed.
In many cases, the outcomes appear neutral at best and harmful at worst for indoor and online workers.

Offline Glesgaboy

Good evidence based stuff, well summarised  , thanks Kat.

Offline FBman78

Now you think the Government could have done the same research as Kat did, thanks Kat   :thumbsup:.  Has anyone noticed a street scene in Scotland in the last 10 years???  I am blissfully unaware of any.  So it would appear the Nordic model will be detrimental all round.

Offline the fitter

      If this passes, it will be an unenforceable law, but used to try and intimidate men, and boost the ego of the politicians. who when you look at them haven't a scooby about the real world.

Offline Massagetugga

Has anyone noticed a street scene in Scotland in the last 10 years???  I am blissfully unaware of any.

No idea how common it actually is but last year once or twice I saw SWs down beside Leith Links in Edinburgh. Rough looking but not particularly junkie like.

Offline S.X. MacHine

      If this passes, it will be an unenforceable law, but used to try and intimidate men, and boost the ego of the politicians. who when you look at them haven't a scooby about the real world.

In passing laws, governments should, to an extent, not go against public opinion, otherwise a new law will be widely ignored.
This brings the law into disrepute.
For example, the 20 mph speed limit in Edinburgh appears, from personal observation, to be pretty much ignored by the vast majority of drivers.
In Northern Ireland, where punters have been criminalised, sex work appears to continue as usual.
Even Ash Regan admits that her virtue signalling bill is merely intended to ‘send a signal’ that sex work is socially unacceptable.

Offline FBman78

No idea how common it actually is but last year once or twice I saw SWs down beside Leith Links in Edinburgh. Rough looking but not particularly junkie like.

Glasgow has no street scene however will be pissed off if this now finishes the safer flat scene.

Offline the fitter

In passing laws, governments should, to an extent, not go against public opinion, otherwise a new law will be widely ignored.
This brings the law into disrepute.
For example, the 20 mph speed limit in Edinburgh appears, from personal observation, to be pretty much ignored by the vast majority of drivers.
In Northern Ireland, where punters have been criminalised, sex work appears to continue as usual.
Even Ash Regan admits that her virtue signalling bill is merely intended to ‘send a signal’ that sex work is socially unacceptable.
Given Ash Regan's political history, jumping from party to party and now independent, shows how much common sense she is carrying, to send a signal that sex work is unacceptable, well they have been trying to do that since the Romans were here. And what she doesn't seem to apply, is when you squeeze a balloon one way, it only comes out, at another point.

Offline Squire Haggard

If she really was focused on trying to stamp out prostitution, it would make sense to have both the buyer and seller criminalised. Instead she wants to criminalise men while decriminalising women. She's idiocy personified IMO.
She's been humiliated in her bids to lead two political parties, and is now powering her way towards losing her seat in May, as an independent.


''MSP Ash Regan has resigned from the Alba party in order to "focus" on her efforts to criminalise paying for sexual services.

The former SNP leadership contender defected to Alba two years ago.

She was defeated in another ballot for the Alba leadership earlier this year and said she now wants to put her energy into passing the Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill as an independent MSP.

An Alba spokesperson said Regan had "not taken an active role" within the party since the leadership vote.''

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Offline globewindsailor

The SNP would want to bring in this law themselves. All very well taking potshots at Reagan as the one pushing this, but we need to be aware of who else supports this. After all there is an election soon.

Offline S.X. MacHine

The SNP would want to bring in this law themselves. All very well taking potshots at Reagan as the one pushing this, but we need to be aware of who else supports this. After all there is an election soon.

Indeed. The SNP did pass a resolution at conference about ten years ago, calling for the abolition of sex work.
So, yes, in May, assess carefully who you vote for.

Offline daviemac

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Offline globewindsailor

Sorry about that and thanks for allowing the thread so far.

Offline globewindsailor

Since my last update the committee have met in private twice and should now be making up a report for the stage 1 vote which the papers indicate could be next month.

Following her appearance raising concerns Siobhann Brown the goverment minister has written to them stating "I do not believe that fundamental concerns I raised have been answered including primarily the safety of women, but also around key components of the Bill and the ability of Police Scotland to effectively enforce the legislation." More was said to the part of the bill for support exiting prositution in that it is lacking in how this would be implemented and costed. Like the goverment would just do it post royal assent or through the bills passage.

However. Scotland's Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain KC has also written to the committee to say that it would be "both enforceable and workable from a prosecutorial perspective". There may be issues in bringing successful prosecutions if "those exploited by prostitution" are reluctant to give evidence. As mentioned above in the thread they are are trying to shape the law to rely less on the SPs talking, but obvious it helps it they do. But it would be "resource-intensive to implement" for the police to go this way.

Ash at the end has sent in x2 documents to try to have the last and lasting word where they attack every bit of evidence against the bill. It was a bit to much to read, but seems to focus on other countries models and the evidence from one or two people that said the bill would reduce the safety of women.

I don't expect much more until the vote other than the MSPs now being lobbied.

Offline FBman78

Everything form the courts perspective is enforceable, it's a question if the police have the resources to throw at it.  Given the current state of Police Scotland they would need a huge budget increase to increase manpower to deal with a relatively small scale issue.  Money talks.

Online advent2016

The logical conclusion is that taking a person out and buying them dinner and having sex afterwards might be construed as payment. I've been to places in the fast east where you did exactly that, you paid for meal, clothes, shoes, general shopping, and it was simply a cover for sexual services.