Pre divorce planning

[LeedsGent]

Some of you may have read my post about me thinking about divorce.
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=413024.msg4174746#msg4174746
I am waiting until my youngest son has taken his GCESs before I move forward and ask for a divorce.  I am looking at the end of July.  I am intending to leave my wife with the lions share of the marital assets.  I am intending to take my business, small private pension and 50K for a deposit on a house, leaving her the rest.  Taking any more would require the sale of the family home and my kids having to move to a new home.  I would be happy with less than half especially if meant a quick drama free divorce

In another post the following was mentioned.
“For those with secret revolut/monza accounts just be aware that if you ever do get to a divorce situation you have to exchange statements from all of your bank accounts going back either one or two years (csnt remember which). Fortunately my ex delayed things so long there was nothing incriminating to see but it was certainly one that caught me by surprise so worth being aware of. It obviously wont change your relationship at that stage but it might change the financial outcome.”
I knew that we would have to both prove how much we have in each bank account to work out the total assets, before we divide them.  I didn’t think that we had to show statements and transactions going back years.  I was planning on closing my personal account with large cash withdrawals, so that nothing might be discovered.  How does anyone know how many back accounts I have?  Will the want to see statements for a closed account with no money in it?

If anyone has been through a divorce I would appreciate any advice, tips or pitfalls to avoid?

Thank you in advance.

[MLawro93]

Why is this on a punting forum? A half-decent solicitor who specialises in family law and divorce can provide any advice you need.

[arrow0404]

Does it matter if your (ex) wife finds out you have another account - your getting divorced ( I’m assuming you don’t have tens of thousands in it ) and only use it for punting there not she can do.

Besides won’t it show on your normal banking account your transferring it over ?!?

[daviemac]

Some of you may have read my post about me thinking about divorce.

I am waiting until my youngest son has taken his GCESs before I move forward and ask for a divorce.

As has been said see a solicitor.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

External Link/Members Only

Have a look on this site a lot of info on there, they saved me a LOT of loot around 10 years ago and i one of the ladies there - could have run off with her anyway;)

MLAWRO93 do bear in mind that some posters might like a bit of emotional support and to hear of others  who may have been through the Divorce mill!..

[MLawro93]

External Link/Members Only

Have a look on this site a lot of info on there, they saved me a LOT of loot around 10 years ago and i one of the ladies there - could have run off with her anyway;)

MLAWRO93 do bear in mind that some posters might like a bit of emotional support and to hear of others  who may have been through the Divorce mill!..

Fair enough, I take your point. 

[scutty brown]

She'll potentially have a claim on any pension you may have

[Adoniron]

She'll potentially have a claim on any pension you may have

I kept my pension but she got the house.

[stampjones]

I think I was surprised how much she was entitled to and how bitter she was about it. As has been said check with solicitors before believing anything but from my very recent experience (it was me quoted by the OP) both partners need to ve fully open and honest with regard to their finances. You are expected to exchange all relevant information which includes all bank accounts, savings etc and statements going back a year on all accounts. Your ex can then ask questions based on the exchange and you are expected  to answer. Mine had a real thing about a lot of cash withdrawls coming from my account. Your ex can ask questions because she has valid concerns or because she just wants to know. In the extreme if she’s not satisfied and believes you are being dishonest snd secreting money she can apply to have your accounts frozen. You can do nothing about that for about 7 days when you can apply to get it unfrozen. That is obviously extreme but I was threatened with it. Anyway there is a form (form E I think) which covers the information you need to supply. That is required where the financial side cant be agreed but most mediators (and lawyers) expect something simioar.

OP I obviously dont know your situation but dont underestimate how difficult your wife can make it for you and dont assume she’ll be happy with what you propose even if it seems generous to you. She’ll likely have friends who push her to make you suffer.

With regard to pension, if you have a “complicated” setup (eg if you have your own business) then you need to get your pensions assessed by sn independent advisor who will recommend the split. This takes into account relative retirement ages and pensions and takes 2 or 3 months to get done.

Divorces these days are “no fault” and done online and through mediation, but there is a part where you can complain about “unreasonable behaviour” which a judge can take into consideration. Spending family money on hookers probably falls under that category.

In summary a lot of what happened caught me by surprise and itcwas much more complicated and loaded in her favour than I thought. I’d 100% recommend seeing a solicitor before you make any moves and he can give you a better idea of what to expect.

[magpie252]

You will be required to complete what is referred to as 'Form E'
This will include details of all of your Personal & Business accounts.
Failure to make a full & honest disclosure could make you liable to pay your other half's legal fees, & I can attested to that being north of £35K

[maxxblue]

OP, just be open and honest. 

[stampjones]

Just want to give a bit of colour to the “see a solicitor” advice. Yes definitely do that before you make an official move, but in my experience they can be less than forthcoming unless you ask direct questions so it absolutely is a good idea to talk to people who’ve been through it and do some google research first and get yourself a basic understanding. Then draw up a list of questions and statements to confirm things before you see your lawyer. Second thing is solicitors will hardly ever give straight answers to your questions I guess because the law is complicated and in confrontational cases it depends how things go. Ultimately the outcome depends a lot on your ex, her lawyer and whichever judge decides the case so its not easy to answer seemingly straightforward questions

[Jomoore]

I don't envy you mate, there's no such thing as a pain free divorce.  The only winners are the solicitors.

A couple of things that I learnt the hard way:

Mediation can be helpful, but you pay for it, then when the apparently amicable draft agreement is taken to your and her solicitors for sign-off before presenting to the court, either (especially if, like my ex, she hired the bitch solicitor from hell) can throw in objections and fresh claims and render the mediation virtually worthless, ie, start the cash register rolling a second time.  And if you're the only earner, you'll be forking out for that.

Second; for the financial settlement the court orders full disclosure, so if you try to swerve that you'll be in contempt of court, punishable by jail time.

Third; (and for me most costly) most folk greatly underestimate the value of their pension fund.

Good luck 

[PepeMAGA]

She'll potentially have a claim on any pension you may have

How is that justifiable really? Really needs to be more protection in place for men flying through divorce

[hairdownthere]

No matter what you think is yours, assume it will be hers.

It seems no matter what has happened, the woman is always the hard done by one in a divorce case.  Be prepared to fight tooth and nail for the most trivial of things.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Stampjones..is about right its bascially done around the children they are the number one priority. You Sir are responsible for their upkeep unitll they are 19 (Nineteen) not 18 as may be assumed.

The courts will look at the overall assets then start dividing them on a his / hers basis she will need somewhere to live etc and is you can't affored two places she will keep the house and you get the bedsit i'm not joking it has hapened. Yes the pension you worked for will be part of those assets!

And legals are not cheap tho the one who was on my case was female their not all bitches with a grudge you'll find those in spades on not allowed!.

In my case it was accomodating the EX in her home countey and solictor said "either i can look at that at £280 odd an hour or you can do the reasearch in your time"! which i did.

Its one of the worst countries for a bloke to be Diviorced in the UK. It has happened that man say 28 ish, missus say 25 or so can have an affair with a yob decicded she wants to get shot of you there are a couiple of young children the outcome can be that your slumming iot in a bedsit where yob can be in your bed in your house that you are helping to pay her bitlls ios she can't work:-(

As some have said get a solicitor and ask any mates or people you know how they got on, some are good some are piss poor, the firm that did mine as in that reference i made one thing they do is that your local one can confir with the very expensive high and mighty london part of the firm and get a bit of  advice from them they will normally be bloody expensive but you you get the cheaper a rate locally:)

Hope this dsoent put you off too much at leaset if your talking and getting her to agree thats a good thing in itself! We did a bit of counselling it was plain that she wasnted to go back home but the counsellor was a well attractive lady - nice chebbage one good thing:-)

[Harry Monk]

I wasn't married but was in a partnership for 20+ years with 2 tinlids.

She wanted to separate taking the majority of the assests. I suggested 50/50 but after a while this became apparent this wasn't going to happen. I engaged a solicitor who straightened things out in quick time and gave her few options, quite a bit based on the age of the children and what they wanted to happen in regard to custody.

I took what I believed was the moral high ground and we completed a 50/50 split.

Bottom line, as has been mentioned, is to get a solicitor to advise and act on your behalf.

[DastardlyDick]

An important consideration is do you think your wife will contest any settlement you might offer? This might depend on the grounds you give for the divorce.

[LeedsGent]

Thank you for all of the information. I am hoping for an amicable divorce.  My wife’s parents had a bitter divorce when she was 3, it went on for years.  It badly affected her and still does.  I am hoping that because of her past she will try to make the split as easy as possible for all involved so that ongoing joint parenting will not be a problem.  I am hoping to do a “one solicitor” divorce, to just do the legal work if we can agree on how the assets should be split.  My children are 18 and 16, I didn’t know about the “look after them until 19” though.  I am hoping that £500 per month per child until they leave further education should suffice.  Our incomes are similar.  She is a deputy head teacher with a fantastic pension, much better than the small sum I have in my private pension.  She will get 130k equity in the house, after she gives me 50K.  She will also keep all of the house contents and her jewellery worth 40k.  I will get my business valued at around 100K.  At lease that is what I would like.  I am hoping that she will see it as generous and will encourage her to give me a quick and amicable divorce. 
 The cash withdrawals and paypal payments to female sounding accounts out of my personal account are a potential issue.  My reason for these will be the cash purchase of stock and clearance stock off ebay.  I am hoping that I don’t have to give copies of my credit card statements as that has payments to Seeking on it.  If she finds out about my punting and Seeking she will probably make my life a lot harder in the divorce. 
The only other potential issue is the value of my business as it has a high turnover but a small profit margin.  If an aggressive solicitor sees the large sums of money coming and going, he may feel that the valuation of 100K far to low. 

I appreciate what you say about solicitors not giving direct answers.  I have come across this issue in the past.  In my opinion, solicitors prefer it when things go wrong they can charge you more and you need them more.

[Doc Holliday]

@LeedsGent. Just a heads up that this is a public forum and your post contains a great deal of very specific and personal detail which is potentially highly identifying to anyone reading who knows you 

[LeedsGent]

Thanks for the warning. I did try to leave out any specifics which might identify me.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I think that shes getting a decent deal tho she may not see it that way!. Yes you are responsible for the nippers till their 19 check that elsewhere!.

Good aspect to try not to land too much greif on the children good that.

If all else fails i was relaiblely told that a Rom hit man can be had for £5K !!!

[Bonker]

As other have pointed out, this is an unusual forum to ask for advice on this matter.

The only experience I have it's that I've fucked divocees. So I can't help yet but do keep me posted.

[stampjones]

As other have pointed out, this is an unusual forum to ask for advice on this matter.

The only experience I have it's that I've fucked divocees. So I can't help yet but do keep me posted.

Do try not to be a dickhead, it’s the off topic section so it’s exactly the place to discuss it. Its an odd forum to discuss football, politics and crap jokes so why dont you go on all those threads and give your wisdom there too?

As it happens, having gone through a divorce recently and therefore actually knowing a little bit about the subject unlike you, Id say its a perfect place to ask. Its clearly a forum with a high proportion of men, its subject matter means its possible that it has a higher percentage of men who’ve gone through divorce and to top it off, its probably the only place where people might have experience of the aspects related to punting. I certainly wish Id had a thread like this when I was going through it. So if you dont know what you’re talking about, why dont you keep your smart arse comments to yourself and jog on

[LeedsGent]

As other have pointed out, this is an unusual forum to ask for advice on this matter.

The only experience I have it's that I've fucked divocees. So I can't help yet but do keep me posted.

I would be happy to DM you, her number.  I would be mighty impressed if you got anywhere with her, bedroom wise.  Maybe it is just me she doesn’t want to sleep with.  She might be grateful when it happens.  She might be desperate for freedom and a change too.  She might run off an get a toyboy, she may already have one. 
I don’t think that will be the case tough.

[Doc Holliday]

Thanks for the warning. I did try to leave out any specifics which might identify me.

As your OH may have said many times during her career it may be a case of 'needs to try harder' 

The personal information you have posted about yourself here and in other posts is actually quite detailed, though it is still unlikely to allow a 'stranger' such as myself to identify you.

However for anyone reading who knows the real you (including your wife) it is almost as solid as DNA at confirming your identity as a member on here.

Apologies if you think I am singling you out, but this subject has been something of a hobby horse of mine going back many years on punting forums.

In your case you have said that you hope for an amicable divorce, but that her knowing about your activities would seriously affect that.

The balance of probability means your secret life will still likely be secret, but the level of detail in your posts was not necessary to make your point and does leave a strong digital fingerprint

[cunningman]

If anyone has been through a divorce I would appreciate any advice, tips or pitfalls to avoid?

Consider looking into a Divorce Coach.  Much cheaper than a lawyer, and independant.

[Adoniron]

Consider looking into a Divorce Coach.  Much cheaper than a lawyer, and independant.

I'm pretty sure all divorce lawyers are independent.

If you can't sort it out by negotiation and end up in court a divorce coach won't be able to represent you. You will need a lawyer then or you do it yourself.

[DastardlyDick]

I'm pretty sure all divorce lawyers are independent.

If you can't sort it out by negotiation and end up in court a divorce coach won't be able to represent you. You will need a lawyer then or you do it yourself.

They can be a "McKenzie Friend" though and coach you through the hearing.

[JontyR]

I've only skimmed through some of the responses so if I am repeating then I apologise but here are some thoughts.

1. Legal advice taken early is often advantageous. They do this for a living and do so every day. They not only know the process but have a good idea of peoples reactions adn behaviours to what you may be planning.
2. Whatever you consider to be reasonable - probably isn't. Or at least not to her.
3. There are divorce calculators online, including a government one which also details how much you both have to pay towards the maintenance of the children.
4. Be careful if researching divorce lawyers, cookies can mean that adverts for the same can pop up all over the electronic devices your family uses.
5. A pre-preapred solution or package isn't liekly to be met with a business like response. More likely I'd suggest it will come across as someone who has been planning something for quite some time. If they can be that devious in terms of planning, how devious can they be in hiding assets?
6. What has actually been spent isn't so much of a big deal. Divorces split assets that are accumulated, not really take into account who has spent what. It doesn't matter that you spent shed loads on punting, she may have a claim on any filming you did though!!
7. I'd fully expect the value of your company to be questioned and queried. An indepednent auditor or accountant may be called upon by both of you before this is out, and to the delight of the legal profession and their travel agents almost guarantees a legal hearing.
8. Are you prepared for the fact that she may not want the cash equivalet of the business but a 50% stake?
9. The price of something is not necessarily the value of that asset. The jewellery may have cost 40K, but if its resale vale is only 5...

[shylad57]

Re your original post LeedsGent, and your question..... how does anyone know how many bank accounts I have anyway?
The answer to that is every credit reference agency in the country.

Your credit score is made up from the amount and time you have held bank accounts, the balance, and how often you have gone overdrawn. The credit cards you hold and the oustanding balance and if you have missed a payment (dont worry you will never be asked to provide previous statements - that money is gone). Any mortgages you hold, the amount owed and any missed payment. Personal loans ourstanding and any payments missed.

I suggest you register with a credit score website like Clear Score. Its free and you will be able to see exactly what everyone else that credit checks you can see. (And therefore what her solicitor can see).

I wish you luck

[LeedsGent]

Thank you for the suggestions.
I have looked at the child support calculator and my plan of £500 per child per month is considerably better.
I am glad that I should not have to show my credit card statement.
I have just checked my credit report, you are correct it does list 3 bank accounts.  The thing is I have several accounts, some are joint and some are savings accounts.  The weird thing is on the credit report it gives the last 3 digits of the account number, none of these numbers match the last 3 digits of my account numbers?

As I am a sole trader, I assumed that I can’t give her 50% of me.  Please correct me if I am wrong. 
The valuation of my business a grey area and the one that gives me the largest concern.  As it has a high turnover but a small profit.  I am screwed if my wife/her solicitor/Dad decides that it is worth 500K. My accounts show that I have made around £50k (give or take 10K) profit per year for the last 5 years.  I came up with the valuation of 100K, based on that that is what I take out in 2 years.  If I put the business up for sale today at 100K I am not sure I would get any takers.   

[stampjones]

Thank you for the suggestions.
I have looked at the child support calculator and my plan of £500 per child per month is considerably better.
I am glad that I should not have to show my credit card statement.
I have just checked my credit report, you are correct it does list 3 bank accounts.  The thing is I have several accounts, some are joint and some are savings accounts.  The weird thing is on the credit report it gives the last 3 digits of the account number, none of these numbers match the last 3 digits of my account numbers?

As I am a sole trader, I assumed that I can’t give her 50% of me.  Please correct me if I am wrong. 
The valuation of my business a grey area and the one that gives me the largest concern.  As it has a high turnover but a small profit.  I am screwed if my wife/her solicitor/Dad decides that it is worth 500K. My accounts show that I have made around £50k (give or take 10K) profit per year for the last 5 years.  I came up with the valuation of 100K, based on that that is what I take out in 2 years.  If I put the business up for sale today at 100K I am not sure I would get any takers.

Pretty sure you will have to show your credit card statements mate. Its everything including debts snd assets. The only exception is cash under £500 I think. But check with a lawyer and you’ll get the definitive answer.

[JontyR]

I came up with the valuation of 100K, based on that that is what I take out in 2 years.  If I put the business up for sale today at 100K I am not sure I would get any takers.

How did you come up with the two years profit caluclation? Is this just something off the top of your head?

Whether you get any takers for the business isn't really here nor there. You are having to buy out her share. If you decide to sell - which may be a possibility then she will be entitled to half of whatver it is. I don't know if it was on here that I read the joke about the pizza boy buying a porsche for $20? But it may be worth looking up in case it's more of a parable than a joke for you.

[Maak]

Banks accounts show up on your credit report.

However my Revolut account has never been shown on my credit report searches.

[Adoniron]

There are some online tools which will give you a rough and ready business valuation, or you could ask your accountant.

[LeedsGent]

How did you come up with the two years profit caluclation? Is this just something off the top of your head?

From my accounts that I send to HMRC. I have made between £40k and £60K profit before tax per year for the last 5 years. 

[LeedsGent]

There are some online tools which will give you a rough and ready business valuation, or you could ask your accountant.

I have just tried a couple of business valuation calculators.  They have suggested a valuation of between 300K and 400K.  Which worries me greatly.  I feel that these valuations are high due to my high turnover.  I have just added up all the assets of the business, which comes to around 80K.  As I don’t have any repeat business and it would not cost much to set up a business like mine from scratch.  I feel that there is very little “good will” to increase the valuation.

[Blackpool Rock]

From my accounts that I send to HMRC. I have made between £40k and £60K profit before tax per year for the last 5 years.

So you take / make about £50K a year so offering her £100K is basically half of only 4 years trading, surely she / her legal representative will be looking for a longer term valuation of i'd say at least 10 years 

[chrishornx]

OP

I guess a lot depends on your circumstances and reasons for wanting a divorce which, rightly you have not mentioned. Perhaps she is the cause having had an affair - we just don't know.

Having been through a divorce recently myself my only advice is don't make the seemingly fair and generous offer you have considered - it will only be looked  upon as a mere  starting point for her parasitic, greedy lawyer and he will go for more and you will never finish up giving her less than your original offer. Even if you talk to her privately  and if she agrees to your offer get her solicitor to write outlining what she is prepared to offer and if you re happy with that then all is fine. You submit an offer and it is no more than a starting point

See what she expects first then negotiate if you need. It would be tragic if she grabbed your offer, or even more and then she decided to sell the house release some capital and move somewhere else - or even bunk up with another bloke, move in with him and sell the house taking all the cash.

don't jump in making more than generous  offers

[JontyR]

From my accounts that I send to HMRC. I have made between £40k and £60K profit before tax per year for the last 5 years.

Sorry, I must have been unclear in my question. I meant, how did you come up with the fact that a valuation of the business is equivalent to 2 years profit?

[Adoniron]

I have just tried a couple of business valuation calculators.  They have suggested a valuation of between 300K and 400K.  Which worries me greatly.  I feel that these valuations are high due to my high turnover.  I have just added up all the assets of the business, which comes to around 80K.  As I don’t have any repeat business and it would not cost much to set up a business like mine from scratch.  I feel that there is very little “good will” to increase the valuation.

As you are a sole trader with no employees and not much in the way of business assets (or presumably premises) I suppose you could argue that you ARE the business and without you it is worthless. In those circumstances it may be inappropriate to seek to value the business and you should be treated as an employee earning £40-60k pa. However I do urge you to get some competent legal advice.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Second what Adoniron said there!...

[LeedsGent]

Sorry, I must have been unclear in my question. I meant, how did you come up with the fact that a valuation of the business is equivalent to 2 years profit?

You are right it is just a number I have picked.  The value of the business to me, is the profit I take out each year and that was the best way to decide a value.  I thought that 1 year’s profit was too little, and 5 years profit was too much, so I settled on 2 years.  Now that I have thought about it, at length, I would essentially be giving my wife half the future profit for X number of years.  Profit which has not and might not be earned.  I think the better way would be to value the business using the assets.

[JontyR]

I think a better way will be to use a business valuer. Or to discuss the whole thing with your wife or else you will both pay for a business valuer in the end.

Look, I know you want the sums to add up to enable you to have the kind of life that you want. And indeed the life that any future partner might want, but you have to face it that you may not be able to get that outcome. You need to take some proper advice before you settle on a course of action that may be irreversible and impact on your relationships with your kids.

[stampjones]

OP

I guess a lot depends on your circumstances and reasons for wanting a divorce which, rightly you have not mentioned. Perhaps she is the cause having had an affair - we just don't know.

Having been through a divorce recently myself my only advice is don't make the seemingly fair and generous offer you have considered - it will only be looked  upon as a mere  starting point for her parasitic, greedy lawyer and he will go for more and you will never finish up giving her less than your original offer. Even if you talk to her privately  and if she agrees to your offer get her solicitor to write outlining what she is prepared to offer and if you re happy with that then all is fine. You submit an offer and it is no more than a starting point

See what she expects first then negotiate if you need. It would be tragic if she grabbed your offer, or even more and then she decided to sell the house release some capital and move somewhere else - or even bunk up with another bloke, move in with him and sell the house taking all the cash.

don't jump in making more than generous  offers

Just an important point on this. Definitely ask a solicitor before making any offer. If you make an offer that can become the baseline in any future court case. You have to make a “without prejudice” offer for it to count as a one off. Really you should get your solicitor to make any offers

[Doc Holliday]

OP

I guess a lot depends on your circumstances and reasons for wanting a divorce which, rightly you have not mentioned. Perhaps she is the cause having had an affair - we just don't know.

We do know. It is about his lack of sex with his wife. He has mentioned it in another thread https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=413024.msg4167435#msg4167435

He actually linked to that thread in his OP in this thread 

[timsussex]

If you have a secret stash I suppose you could buy some gold - at around £2.5k an ounce it shouldnt be difficult to hide a tidy amount

[PumpDump]

To the OP, I would question if this drastic action is actually going to solve your problems. I believe in most relationships the sex gets stale or fizzles out over time. You could be back in the same place in another 5 - 10 years, but a lot less well off.

[Blackpool Rock]

To the OP, I would question if this drastic action is actually going to solve your problems. I believe in most relationships the sex gets stale or fizzles out over time. You could be back in the same place in another 5 - 10 years, but a lot less well off.

Yes i'm wondering if his wife actually knows anything about his plan at the moment 

Realistically if you can get on with living fairly separate lives in the same house then that's probably the cheapest option, also if the OP was able to have a change in mindset and forget about him having a relationship with his wife then i'm sure it would be far easier to do this by compartmentalising everything