Should we report trafficked SPs?

[scutty brown]

I presume they are clued up on what action to take................

very unlikely

But the simple fact is, if you find what you think is a trafficked girl, you should report it. You saw it, you know the details. Passing it on to a third party would result in it not being taken as a high priority: the impetus would have gone. To prioritise action they need first-hand reports of what's been seen.

[yesbby]

I know for a fact that organisation has travelled to places like Thailand and Albania, dealing with their governments directly. They also work to reintegrate the girls into society safely. They are very specifically clued up. Anyway, carry on..

[scutty brown]

I know for a fact that organisation has travelled to places like Thailand and Albania, dealing with their governments directly. They also work to reintegrate the girls into society safely. They are very specifically clued up. Anyway, carry on..

That's a completely different skill set from getting the information to the police and getting it acted on

[DrGFreeman]

But the simple fact is, if you find what you think is a trafficked girl, you should report it. You saw it, you know the details. Passing it on to a third party would result in it not being taken as a high priority: the impetus would have gone. To prioritise action they need first-hand reports of what's been seen.

Im keen to understand why your think you're the inhouse expert on human trafficking ?
what experience do you have in the area ?

[Thecunninglinguist]

Im keen to understand why your think you're the inhouse expert on human trafficking ?
what experience do you have in the area ?

I don't know or have any contact with Scutty, who I am sure can answer for himself but over a long period he has shown he has a better knowledge of the particularly Asian "massage" scene and has contacts in that community outside of pure business. His insights have often proved correct and I for one respect his comments here.

[DrGFreeman]

.....If you check the numbers, today MK lists 119 Vivastreet girls - most foreign, while AW lists 63 non-British girls. If you allow for duplicates that's probably around 120-130 discreet phone numbers, of which you'd probably find 35-50% meet the legal definition of trafficked. OK a lot of guestimates there, but past research puts it in the right numerical area. Y....

This 'analysis' is complete drivel and any conclusions based on such 'analysis' will also be drivel
his 'facts' dont align with any published data
I find the idea that scuttly has a combination of different historic sources - some private laughable

maybe hes well informed about asian massage in NW England but I dont see any evidence that knowledge expands to UK-wide sex trafficking

[daviemac]

This 'analysis' is complete drivel and any conclusions based on such 'analysis' will also be drivel
his 'facts' dont align with any published data
I find the idea that scuttly has a combination of different historic sources - some private laughable

maybe hes well informed about asian massage in NW England but I dont see any evidence that knowledge expands to UK-wide sex trafficking

If you don't find the information he posts believable then ignore it, a lot of members here do not feel the same as you, including me.

If you have some issue with Scuttty then put him on ignore, this thread is not the place to be discussing if what one members says is correct or not.

Regardless of anything else that may be derailing this thread if any of us suspect an escort or masseuse of any nationality is being trafficked, coerced or in any way not working willingly we should report it.

[Thephoenix]

I don't know or have any contact with Scutty, who I am sure can answer for himself but over a long period he has shown he has a better knowledge of the particularly Asian "massage" scene and has contacts in that community outside of pure business. His insights have often proved correct and I for one respect his comments here.

I agree with your comments.

[DrGFreeman]

If you don't find the information he posts believable then ignore it, a lot of members here do not feel the same as you, including me.
If you have some issue with Scuttty then put him on ignore, this thread is not the place to be discussing if what one members says is correct or not.
Regardless of anything else that may be derailing this thread if any of us suspect an escort or masseuse of any nationality is being trafficked, coerced or in any way not working willingly we should report it.

I think someone posting gobbledygook as fact should be challenged

this thread is not the place to be discussing if what one members says is correct or not
what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ?

[daviemac]

I think someone posting gobbledygook as fact should be challenged

this thread is not the place to be discussing if what one members says is correct or not
what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ?

It is only your opinion that what Scutty posts is gobbledygook, I, along with many others find it useful.

This thread is to discuss if we should report trafficked SPs and the fact is we should, no question, no if's or but's we should be reporting any suspicions we have.

Whether or not Scutty is as informed as he says is largely irrelevant, he is not trying to claim he knows exactly which establishments use trafficked girls, what he has done is give a very useful guide to what to look out for in order to recognise signs that they are trafficked.

There have been links posted to how and where to make reports, who can be contacted and what to look out for and Scutty has been very helpful in that regard, but he does not profess to be an expert.

With this thread we are trying to ensure the escorts we visit are working of their own free will and are in a safe environment and we should not be deviating from that with people 'calling out' things that don't need to be called out, if what he says needs to be 'called out' as you put it one of the mods would do it.

[8MillionDollarMan]

I think someone posting gobbledygook as fact should be challenged

  he does post some trolling bollocks.

[daviemac]

he does post some trolling bollocks.

There you go again, you just can't help yourself can you.   

With this thread we are trying to ensure the escorts we visit are working of their own free will and are in a safe environment and we should not be deviating from that with people 'calling out' things that don't need to be called out, if what he says needs to be 'called out' as you put it one of the mods would do it.

[DrGFreeman]

It is only your opinion that what Scutty posts is gobbledygook, I, along with many others find it useful.

and it is only your opinion, no offence, that his analysis is useful.
I do my own research and have different conclusions. I don't see why my opinion is less valid than anyone elses.

I ask again, what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ? Someone posts an opinion, someone else disagrees
to me to post on a forum is to invite challenge - what experience lead you to that conclusion, what logic, what data ?
otherwise a forum is just a circle-jerk of everyone agreeing with each other, whats the pint of that, what do you learn ?

[8MillionDollarMan]

and it is only your opinion, no offence, that his analysis is useful.
I do my own research and have different conclusions. I don't see why my opinion is less valid than anyone elses.

I ask again, what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ? Someone posts an opinion, someone else disagrees
to me to post on a forum is to invite challenge - what experience lead you to that conclusion, what logic, what data ?
otherwise a forum is just a circle-jerk of everyone agreeing with each other, whats the pint of that, what do you learn ?

  well said.

[daviemac]

and it is only your opinion, no offence, that his analysis is useful.
I do my own research and have different conclusions. I don't see why my opinion is less valid than anyone elses.

I ask again, what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ? Someone posts an opinion, someone else disagrees
to me to post on a forum is to invite challenge - what experience lead you to that conclusion, what logic, what data ?
otherwise a forum is just a circle-jerk of everyone agreeing with each other, whats the pint of that, what do you learn ?

So what you are saying is we should not report trafficking,     because this thread is about should we report it and if we should how?

This is the wrong thread to discussing whether or not opinions irrelevant to the theme are right or wrong. It doesn't matter whether your conclusions are right and Scutty's are wrong. The whole point it to give information on how to keep escorts safe and pointlessly arguing the toss about what someone you appear to have an issue with detracts from that.

[daviemac]

well said.

You will not get another warning, take the advice you have been given, twice.

[DrGFreeman]

So what you are saying is we should not report trafficking,     because this thread is about should we report it and if we should how?
This is the wrong thread to discussing whether or not opinions irrelevant to the theme are right or wrong. It doesn't matter whether your conclusions are right and Scutty's are wrong. The whole point it to give information on how to keep escorts safe and pointlessly arguing the toss about what someone you appear to have an issue with detracts from that.

no, you clearly missed my post as #37 in this thread

of course we should report suspicions of trafficking - External Link/Members Only

[daviemac]

no, you clearly missed my post as #37 in this thread

If you don't agree with what scutty says ignore him and let everyone make up their own minds on it, what he posts is very useful to me as a mod.

[scutty brown]

no, you clearly missed my post as #37 in this thread

of course we should report suspicions of trafficking - External Link/Members Only

Modern slavery helpline takes too long, the girls may well have moved by the time the report gets through to the relevant team.
Far better to contact the police direct.
Or if you insist on being anonymous, then Crimebusters - that usually takes 24 hours but is quicker than the slavery line.
But far far better is direct contact. Especially if there is immediate danger or concern for the girl

[DrGFreeman]

If you don't agree with what scutty says ignore him and let everyone make up their own minds on it, what he posts is very useful to me as a mod.

how will everyone make up their own mind if no-one posts an alternative opinion ?

to ask for the 3rd time
what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ? Someone posts an opinion, someone else disagrees
to me to post on a forum is to invite challenge - what experience lead you to that conclusion, what logic, what data ?
otherwise a forum is just a circle-jerk of everyone agreeing with each other, whats the pint of that, what do you learn ?

[daviemac]

how will everyone make up their own mind if no-one posts an alternative opinion ?

to ask for the 3rd time
what is the purpose of a discussion forum if not to debate ? Someone posts an opinion, someone else disagrees
to me to post on a forum is to invite challenge - what experience lead you to that conclusion, what logic, what data ?
otherwise a forum is just a circle-jerk of everyone agreeing with each other, whats the pint of that, what do you learn ?

What alternative opinion. 

The title of the thread is Should we report trafficed SPs? the only thing to debate is should we or shouldn't we, if no then give reasons if yes give help on how it can be done.

I honestly don't know why you are continually derailing this thread with irrelevant arguments. There is nothing wrong with debating but this thread is not the one for you to debate what you want to debate.

We both agree that we should report trafficking and I've told you that as a mod I find what Scutty posts very useful so I want him to continue to do so, the fact you think what he post is gobbledygook is totally irrelevant.

To reiterate I want Scutty to continue to post information on trafficking, from what he posts I will pick out the information I find useful and ignore the rest, if you don't agree with him ignore it all.

What I don't want is anyone dissuaded from reporting due to accusation of inaccurate posts on here.

[Thephoenix]

and it is only your opinion, no offence, that his analysis is useful.

My response:

But it's not just  Davey's opinion.

Scutty regularly posts on this and related subjects, and I suspect many members like me value his comments, as it's apparent reading his posts over time, that he has developed a level of knowledge about the NW 'massage parlour' scene far in excess
of most punters.
I believe that's a contributing factor why he gets a lot of 'likes', as many punters value his views on this and related subjects.

Unlike some of the other members on this thread who seem to be building quite a reputation for just trolling, which may give them some personal satisfaction, but with the result that their opinions may just become more and more devalued and irrelevant.

[DrGFreeman]

Disagreement is not trolling
I will continue to point out posts which are inaccurate or misleading
But I'll refrain from posting further on this thread

[JontyR]

Disagreement is not trolling
I will continue to point out posts which are inaccurate or misleading
But I'll refrain from posting further on this thread

The site is based around sharing info. Saying you disagree is absolutely fine. But it is better if you detail why you think that or what your contrary evidence is or why your analysis is different.

[Doc Holliday]

Disagreement is not trolling

You haven't been accused of trolling. It is 8$man who stands accused (by many) and across multiple threads 

[daviemac]

Disagreement is not trolling
I will continue to point out posts which are inaccurate or misleading
But I'll refrain from posting further on this thread

Just to repeat what JontyR has said, it would be far more beneficial to everyone if you posted what evidence or suspicions you have about trafficking in your area, that way we get to read all the available information.

[PumpDump]

The problem is how do you know a girl is trafficked? I am friendly with a Chinese woman who works in different massage shops. She came here to make money as the economy is so shit back home and she has children to support with one kid who just started uni. She has claimed asylum on some made up reason, lives in a shithole shared room in a flat, works 7 days a week, sometimes sleeps at the shop. She intends to work as much as possible and make as much as possible while they investigate her claim, she expects to be eventually kicked out of the country. Would I be happy living in those conditions? Hell no. But she is happy with her situation. It is her only hope of making some decent money. However, some well meaning punter who makes that call can fuck up her plans in a big way.

[daviemac]

The problem is how do you know a girl is trafficked? I am friendly with a Chinese woman who works in different massage shops. She came here to make money as the economy is so shit back home and she has children to support with one kid who just started uni. She has claimed asylum on some made up reason, lives in a shithole shared room in a flat, works 7 days a week, sometimes sleeps at the shop. She intends to work as much as possible and make as much as possible while they investigate her claim, she expects to be eventually kicked out of the country. Would I be happy living in those conditions? Hell no. But she is happy with her situation. It is her only hope of making some decent money. However, some well meaning punter who makes that call can fuck up her plans in a big way.

I take it she's working illegally then.   

[PumpDump]

I take it she's working illegally then.   

Yes she is. Seems quite a few of them are doing the same.

[PumpDump]

The problem is how do you know a girl is trafficked? I am friendly with a Chinese woman who works in different massage shops. She came here to make money as the economy is so shit back home and she has children to support with one kid who just started uni. She has claimed asylum on some made up reason, lives in a shithole shared room in a flat, works 7 days a week, sometimes sleeps at the shop. She intends to work as much as possible and make as much as possible while they investigate her claim, she expects to be eventually kicked out of the country. Would I be happy living in those conditions? Hell no. But she is happy with her situation. It is her only hope of making some decent money. However, some well meaning punter who makes that call can fuck up her plans in a big way.

I suppose my advice is only report if you are sure she is in trouble, if she seems to be working against her will, for example she appears upset, is reluctant to provide services to you, if there are any other people in the property who seem to be forcing her to work (by shouting at her, etc), if she has visible injuries. You have to carefully consider if reporting will make things better or worse for her.

[scutty brown]

................... It is her only hope of making some decent money. However, some well meaning punter who makes that call can fuck up her plans in a big way.

It would be interesting to know what she means by "decent money". How much of the fee and extras does she get? If it's £15/hr out of the fee she's doing well........and remember these girls are on piecework, so only get paid by the punt. Not by the day. And rent, food, travel has to come out of that.
Usually these girls arrive expecting to make a fortune, only to find themselves at the mercy of ruthless work agents who take most of their money in "admin" and "rent" charges, and that's on top of the bonded labour scheme run by the criminal gangs who would have financed and organised her getting her.

In this case she's working illegally, probably getting paid way below minimum wage, sounds like she's expected to live in shit conditions, and is probably either too scared to complain - or too unknowing to realise she's being exploited

[scutty brown]

Yes she is. Seems quite a few of them are doing the same.

And turning the logic on its head a bit........so a Chinese female illegal immigrant working here illegally in sex work is OK?
But presumably a male illegal immigrant working here isn't?

[scutty brown]

I suppose my advice is only report if you are sure she is in trouble, if she seems to be working against her will, for example she appears upset, is reluctant to provide services to you, if there are any other people in the property who seem to be forcing her to work (by shouting at her, etc), if she has visible injuries. You have to carefully consider if reporting will make things better or worse for her.

The problem with that simplistic view is that often the girls are so indoctrinated and threatened that they'll smile continuously like a trained monkey. They've little or no English language skills, don't know who to trust. Most of them have been through a puppy-dog training school where they will have learnt that looking upset or threatened means no food, a possible beating, or maybe a training rape to remind her who's in charge.
The Chinese girls don't get here on their own. Someone arranges and pays for the transport, that someone being one of the organised  crime gangs. They've invested in those girls and want to squeeze every bit of payback they can.
This year is 20 years on from the Morecambe Cockling disaster, and fuck all has changed. We don't get Chinese out in The Bay anymore, but they're still here unprotected, unacknowledged exploited in sex and other work.

[PumpDump]

And turning the logic on its head a bit........so a Chinese female illegal immigrant working here illegally in sex work is OK?
But presumably a male illegal immigrant working here isn't?

Is this a rhetorical question? A question directed at me? Or are you telling us your own views?
 

[scutty brown]

Is this a rhetorical question? A question directed at me? Or are you telling us your own views?

It's a question for whoever wants to answer.

[PumpDump]

It's a question for whoever wants to answer.

I think as long as either are doing it by their own free choice, then it is not for me to decide. I know legally it is not ok, but people can make their own choices in life.

[Lou2019]

I think as long as either are doing it by their own free choice, then it is not for me to decide. I know legally it is not ok, but people can make their own choices in life.

But some can’t make their own choices in life that’s the problem.

[PumpDump]

But some can’t make their own choices in life that’s the problem.

Yes you are right. And for those poor unfortunates I don't know what the right course of action is. I feel that reporting them may sometimes make things even worse for them or their families back home. You are a SP, I assume you have come in to contact with this more than I have, what would you suggest we do?

[Lou2019]

Yes you are right. And for those poor unfortunates I don't know what the right course of action is. I feel that reporting them may sometimes make things even worse for them or their families back home. You are a SP, I assume you have come in to contact with this more than I have, what would you suggest we do?

How would I have come in to contact with this ? You’re the SS not me 

[PumpDump]

How would I have come in to contact with this ? You’re the SS not me 

Don't you girls have your own forums where you communicate, share advice, etc.

[Lou2019]

Don't you girls have your own forums where you communicate, share advice, etc.

They are hardly going to be posting about it are they

[scutty brown]

Don't you girls have your own forums where you communicate, share advice, etc.

How on earth is a trafficked, controlled foreign girl with minimal English language skills going to be able to gain access to a relatively obscure UK sex workers support forum? And for that matter have you actually ever viewed SAAFE or the other support forums? There's little to nothing on any of them relating to trafficking from overseas - from their collective points of view it may as well not exist.

[webpunter]

Don't you girls have your own forums where you communicate, share advice, etc.

Yes, to help deal with fucktard punters like you

Back to those being trafficked, even if they somehow manage to post something [in mandarin] what happens to them if they get caught by the pimps ?

You really are clueless

[PumpDump]

They are hardly going to be posting about it are they

I assumed you discuss the topic, as we do here. So you never had a discussion with another SP about this topic.

[alabama1]

I assumed you discuss the topic, as we do here. So you never had a discussion with another SP about this topic.

Why the hell should they ? 

[webpunter]

I assumed you discuss the topic, as we do here. So you never had a discussion with another SP about this topic.

Keep digging 
I think i know what the problem might be
On the basis that you havent done a BB review for a while your testosterone levels could be dipping
[it can be absorbed into the body]
Perhaps this is why you appear more unbalanced than usual
Time to go stir some more porridge, hope this helps 

[scutty brown]

I assumed you discuss the topic, as we do here. So you never had a discussion with another SP about this topic.

Seriously, what contact or knowledge of the trafficking or exploitation of foreign sex workers do you expect the average British girl to have? Unless she herself has been drawn into the underground world of criminal pimps it's probably a totally alien concept of which she'll have no experience. It's not as if she can walk down the street looking for Chinese whores, handing out cards inviting them to "join our forum"..........

[PumpDump]

Keep digging 
I think i know what the problem might be
On the basis that you havent done a BB review for a while your testosterone levels could be dipping
[it can be absorbed into the body]
Perhaps this is why you appear more unbalanced than usual
Time to go stir some more porridge, hope this helps 

Go back and write some more of your embarrassing reviews for us to laugh at 

[MissWolf]

Seriously, what contact or knowledge of the trafficking or exploitation of foreign sex workers do you expect the average British girl to have? Unless she herself has been drawn into the underground world of criminal pimps it's probably a totally alien concept of which she'll have no experience. It's not as if she can walk down the street looking for Chinese whores, handing out cards inviting them to "join our forum"..........

This ^^^

Punters are at the coalface when it comes to interaction with escorts face to face  so they are in the best position to spot trafficking if they are switched on.

I like Lou can read reviews and think....that sounds dodgy or she sounds vulnerable but we are not in a position to meet and interact with these girls.

[Lou2019]

Seriously, what contact or knowledge of the trafficking or exploitation of foreign sex workers do you expect the average British girl to have? Unless she herself has been drawn into the underground world of criminal pimps it's probably a totally alien concept of which she'll have no experience. It's not as if she can walk down the street looking for Chinese whores, handing out cards inviting them to "join our forum"..........

This