Another drowning

[timsussex]

with the warm weather today another young guy has drowned while swimming in open water

Now I accept that swimming can be great exercise - but from a purely statistical point of view - should you teach kids to swim if you are actually increasing their chance of drowning ?

I'm a very weak swimmer and I'm very cautious near deep water so do I have a lower chance of drowning than a regular swimmer ?

[myothernameis]

with the warm weather today another young guy has drowned while swimming in open water

I stay near the Forth and Clyde canal, and quite often cycle to Balloch, and there always kids jumping of the bridge, into the river or canal

I think a few years back on a boy around 11 years old, lost his life, and over a few weeks here around 7 youths lost there lifes, and now cctv had to be installed

[Stevelondon]

I'm a very weak swimmer and I'm very cautious near deep water so do I have a lower chance of drowning than a regular swimmer ?

Not as low as the bloke who can’t swim but who never goes in water.

[Lou2019]

Children should be taught how to swim but if you are a non-swimmer however lessons aren’t accessible to everyone. We spent a small fortune over the years ensuring our child was a good swimmer.

Is swimming no longer on the curriculum? The government could do with introducing an initiative over school holidays with affordable lessons and teaching water safety.

[scutty brown]

Now I accept that swimming can be great exercise - but from a purely statistical point of view - should you teach kids to swim if you are actually increasing their chance of drowning ?

That's a daft argument
It's akin to not letting people learn to drive because driving increases the risk of crashing..........

[timsussex]

That's a daft argument
It's akin to not letting people learn to drive because driving increases the risk of crashing..........

possibly true but driving is a very useful skill - especially if you live a somewhere without public transport. I drive every day and my life would be much poorer without driving - I don't feel I missed out being a non swimmer and my 2 daughter who both swim well probably only swim once a year on holiday

[timsussex]

That's a daft argument
It's akin to not letting people learn to drive because driving increases the risk of crashing..........

not akin at all. Teaching kids to swim is claimed to increase safety but does it ?
when did anyone claim that learning to drive made you safer ? Public transport is much safer

[mr.bluesky]

As a kid at school you are taught how to rescue drowning rubber bricks whilst dressed in your pyjamas.  Strangely enough I've never had to put this into practice yet. 

[StingRay]

Yes, I remember mandatory swimming lessons at school many years ago. I especially remember going to our local outdoor pool in winter - sub-zero temperature outside, water barely above freezing with leaves and bits of tree floating in it. Teacher was OK though, in his overcoat, scarf, gloves and hat. That's why I never learned at school!

[timsussex]

Yes, I remember mandatory swimming lessons at school many years ago. I especially remember going to our local outdoor pool in winter - sub-zero temperature outside, water barely above freezing with leaves and bits of tree floating in it. Teacher was OK though, in his overcoat, scarf, gloves and hat. That's why I never learned at school!

I had exactly the same experience !

[mr.bluesky]

Yes, I remember mandatory swimming lessons at school many years ago. I especially remember going to our local outdoor pool in winter - sub-zero temperature outside, water barely above freezing with leaves and bits of tree floating in it. Teacher was OK though, in his overcoat, scarf, gloves and hat. That's why I never learned at school!

With a name like StingRay you should be good at all things aquatic based 

[willie loman]

 I think the dutch invest a fair amount of time and money on making sure kids know how to swim, alas in britain drowning,  as in much else its down to social class and ethnic background. I swim every day. In southern europe a fairly high toll of death by drowning, especially in italy, lack of pools or school programme.

[alabama1]

I read that a lot of drownings happen in disused gravel pits, where the water is very deep and cold, causing shock to the nervous system. In these such cases, i think a person would likely drown, even if they could swim.

[advent2016]

Teenagers often think they know everything and are indestructible. I did enough stupid things when I was young. I was a weak swimmer and through peer pressure swam out to a floating deck near the hotel, that as the tide went out moved quite a long way further. I though I was going to drown on the way back, floated on back, tred water. I was 19, luckily my GF a lifeguard (back home) swam out  and gave me mostly encouragement to get back. She also had the foresight to alert the rib boat just in case. Thankfully it wasn't needed. Some years before I'd swam across a river and been caught by a fast flow near a weir. I did eventually learn about water safety. I did a lot of other stupid things but was fairly lucky.
My army instructor (who got me much stronger and fitter) told us about the dangers of still water and even strong fit swimmers could be incapacitated and die in gravel pits and the like, so have a flotation device, a tether and a banksman.

[Stevelondon]

I think I get the point Tim’s on about.

But surely if you learn to swim it’s better than NOT so to speak.

Analogy

You’ve never learnt to swim because you’re looking at it from the point of view of Tim.
You’re on a cruise, the ship sinks.
Surely you’ve got a better chance of surviving if you had learnt to swim 😂

Then again. Maybe you live your non swimming life around NEVER going anywhere near water.  .  Don’t ask Tim if he’s into WS.

[Harry Monk]

I read that a lot of drownings happen in disused gravel pits, where the water is very deep and cold, causing shock to the nervous system. In these such cases, i think a person would likely drown, even if they could swim.

I believe the problem is how cold the water is as it shocks you. The water takes months to raise it's temperature in spite of it's potential toxicity, how'd have thought that could be a benefit 
That said also lack of ability can be a factor for sure. Somehow the same stuff happens each year, very sad

[sir wanksalot]

with the warm weather today another young guy has drowned while swimming in open water

Now I accept that swimming can be great exercise - but from a purely statistical point of view - should you teach kids to swim if you are actually increasing their chance of drowning ?

I'm a very weak swimmer and I'm very cautious near deep water so do I have a lower chance of drowning than a regular swimmer ?

It's often the good swimmers who drown. The weak swimmers don't take risks

[timsussex]

I think I get the point Tim’s on about.

But surely if you learn to swim it’s better than NOT so to speak.

Analogy

You’ve never learnt to swim because you’re looking at it from the point of view of Tim.
You’re on a cruise, the ship sinks.
Surely you’ve got a better chance of surviving if you had learnt to swim 😂
....

My grandfather was a professional fisherman and he couldnt swim (neither could my father or Uncle but both my aunts could )

My grandfather's view was that if the ship sinks you are safer holding on to the wreckage and waiting for rescue. He pointed out that it was so easy to underestimate the distance to the shore and the sailors who try to swim ashore drown.

Haven't you seen Titanic ?  Rose survived Jack didnt!   

[chrishornx]

My grandfather was a professional fisherman and he couldnt swim (neither could my father or Uncle but both my aunts could )

My grandfather's view was that if the ship sinks you are safer holding on to the wreckage and waiting for rescue. He pointed out that it was so easy to underestimate the distance to the shore and the sailors who try to swim ashore drown.

Haven't you seen Titanic ?  Rose survived Jack didnt!   

???

First of all there may not be any wreckage if a boat sinks.

Secondly if there is wreckage you will have tc swim to it in the first place before you can hang on to it.

[Camargue]

I read that a lot of drownings happen in disused gravel pits, where the water is very deep and cold, causing shock to the nervous system. In these such cases, i think a person would likely drown, even if they could swim.

Yes - sudden exposure to cold water causes you to gasp for breath involuntarily so if you have jumped or fallen in there is a strong likelihood of inhaling a lungful of water and it's game over even if you could easily manage 100 lengths at your local pool.

[lostandfound]

Being a large island but a small country was Britain's superpower in pre-industrial times and made it an er ... superpower; given all of that water around us I think some fatalities are to be expected.

I was taught to swim at school at age 7, and swam regularly until age 18. Never since then, except in the hotel pool when on holiday. I wonder how typical this is?

[Corus Boy]

I believe the problem is how cold the water is as it shocks you. The water takes months to raise it's temperature in spite of it's potential toxicity, how'd have thought that could be a benefit 
That said also lack of ability can be a factor for sure. Somehow the same stuff happens each year, very sad

That is often the cause in lake drownings.

The physics make it happen, basic facts;

Water is at it's most dense at 4°C.  So as exected warm water rises and colder was sinks because of its density but once frozen, at 0°C, it is at it's least dense hence ice floats.

Also lakes rarely completely freeze, so fish can survive at the bottom were the water can remain above freezing.

So, as said, when it is hot weather, even for days, we get very hot, the water on the surface will seem warm bt if you dive or jump into a lake you will pass through the warm layer and descend into cooler then cold water.  The human body can then go into 'shock,' cease breathing, pass into unconciousness, death by drowning may follow.

[daviemac]

A 14 year old has died and a 13 year old is in a critical condition after swimming in the Tyne at Ovingham in Northumberland yesterday, not the first time around that part of the river either as it's very popular with swimmers.

[catweazle]

A 14 year old has died and a 13 year old is in a critical condition after swimming in the Tyne at Ovingham in Northumberland yesterday, not the first time around that part of the river either as it's very popular with swimmers.

The second youngster has also died, I believe.

[advent2016]

unbelievably awful for parents and siblings
All these places have warning signs, it's all over social media so why don't they take heed? Some of the kids I know think anything that is on "old people's" social media like facebook, tiktok, twitter, WA, snap and news channels etc doesn't apply to them and they are smarter than that. Local teenager died recently falling off his E-Scooter (No protective equipment at all), hit kerb, then brick wall, died in ambulance asking for him mum.
I don't know what the answer is. As I said I'm surprised I'm here the stupid stuff I did and that was long before smartphones and social media

[Stevelondon]

My grandfather was a professional fisherman and he couldnt swim (neither could my father or Uncle but both my aunts could )

My grandfather's view was that if the ship sinks you are safer holding on to the wreckage and waiting for rescue. He pointed out that it was so easy to underestimate the distance to the shore and the sailors who try to swim ashore drown.

Haven't you seen Titanic ?  Rose survived Jack didnt!   

No I have not seen Titanic.

But now you’ve ruined the ending for me ………

[8MillionDollarMan]

I read that a lot of drownings happen in disused gravel pits, where the water is very deep and cold, causing shock to the nervous system. In these such cases, i think a person would likely drown, even if they could swim.

Yes this is mostly why people drown they simply jump in without any acclimitisation.

[8MillionDollarMan]

That's a daft argument

  a quite bizarre and stupid way of thinking and simply wrong.

[timsussex]

a quite bizarre and stupid way of thinking and simply wrong.

If it "simply wrong" then you should be able to point out the simple mistake ?

I cannot find data on swimmers v non swimmers drowning but
1) The example I gave (and many many more) would not have happened if they weren't swimmers
2) young men are 5 times as likely to drown than young women - yet many more men of men can swim compared to women
3) while press reports arent a great source of 50 BBC news reports 25 were people swimming so were presumably all swimmers  10 were foul play, 5 had a drink element, 3 drowned in the bath, 6 were under 5 years old.
4) back in cavemen times it was probably a survival advantage to swim

I'll bet you a pint that the next reported death in the UK (excluding foul play, bathtubs etc) will be a young man who went swimming

[lostandfound]

If it "simply wrong" then you should be able to point out the simple mistake ?

I cannot find data on swimmers v non swimmers drowning but
1) The example I gave (and many many more) would not have happened if they weren't swimmers
2) young men are 5 times as likely to drown than young women - yet many more men of men can swim compared to women
3) while press reports arent a great source of 50 BBC news reports 25 were people swimming so were presumably all swimmers  10 were foul play, 5 had a drink element, 3 drowned in the bath, 6 were under 5 years old.
4) back in cavemen times it was probably a survival advantage to swim

I'll bet you a pint that the next reported death in the UK (excluding foul play, bathtubs etc) will be a young man who went swimming

Here is a link to strategy document preescribing action reduce deaths from drowning.

External Link/Members Only

It says there are around 400 accidental drownings in UK waters each year, and that this not a bad stat by global standards.

It also says that 44% of those who drowned did not intend to enter the water, and one of the measures recommended to reduce those deaths is teaching people to swim.

[timsussex]

Here is a link to strategy document preescribing action reduce deaths from drowning.

External Link/Members Only

It says there are around 400 accidental drownings in UK waters each year, and that this not a bad stat by global standards.

It also says that 44% of those who drowned did not intend to enter the water, and one of the measures recommended to reduce those deaths is teaching people to swim.

hardly an indepenent source but look at it the other way 56% did deliberately enter the water (presumably all swimmers) while some (many?) of the 44% were swimmers.
How many of the 44% died because they werent swimmers ?
Did it include drunken falling into water, very young children, foul play
did it include
 External Link/Members Only
or
External Link/Members Only
or
External Link/Members Only

[lostandfound]

hardly an indepenent source but look at it the other way 56% did deliberately enter the water (presumably all swimmers) while some (many?) of the 44% were swimmers.
How many of the 44% died because they werent swimmers ?
Did it include drunken falling into water, very young children, foul play
did it include
 External Link/Members Only
or
External Link/Members Only
or
External Link/Members Only

How is it not an independent source? It's membership is mostly the Royal Society for the Prevention of Acccidents, and the Royal Life Saving Society, plus Chief Fire Officers, the Canals and Rivers Trust, and the Marine and Coastguard Agency. Would it be better to have people who don't know what they are talking about because they have no experience of the matter?

The first example they cite is of a 4 year old - a very young child.

The conclusion I draw is that you dismissed the document out of hand.

[timsussex]

How is it not an independent source? It's membership is mostly the Royal Society for the Prevention of Acccidents, and the Royal Life Saving Society, plus Chief Fire Officers, the Canals and Rivers Trust, and the Marine and Coastguard Agency. Would it be better to have people who don't know what they are talking about because they have no experience of the matter?

The first example they cite is of a 4 year old - a very young child.

The conclusion I draw is that you dismissed the document out of hand.

Would we not be better teaching/ensuring that 4 year olds stay away from water ? but that wouldnt fit in with the aims of the Canals and Rivers Trust would it ?

No I dont dismiss it out of hand but I'm always sceptical of people who try to solve a problem by looking at a minority (44%) rather then the majority (56%) of cases

I think we can assume that nearly all of the 56% of drownings of people who voluntarily enter the water were swimmers- after all non-swimmers would have to be literally out of their mind (Drink/drugs, suicide) to enter the water.
and regarding the 44%
1) many of those were swimmers anyway
2) the most common age to drown is toddlers - including the proverbial drowning in 6 inches of water
3) some hit their head when they fell and were unconscious
4) some were drunk/drugs incidents
5) some entered the water because of foul play
and in those 5 types whether they had learnt to swim was probably unimportant

My point is everyone assumes learning to swim saves people but no-one actually looks at the figures 56% of drowning are swimmers and of the remaining 44% perhaps half (?) swimming ability didn't matter

These figures suggest that you 2-3 times more likely to drown if you learn to swim

But the most damning statistic is this  Eleven times more young men (age 12-29)  die by drowning than women of the same age (like the guys in the original post) 

lets get back to the original case - If they hadnt learnt to swim would they have gone into the water ? Would they be alive today ?

 

[lostandfound]

Would we not be better teaching/ensuring that 4 year olds stay away from water ? but that wouldnt fit in with the aims of the Canals and Rivers Trust would it ?

No I dont dismiss it out of hand but I'm always sceptical of people who try to solve a problem by looking at a minority (44%) rather then the majority (56%) of cases

I think we can assume that nearly all of the 56% of drownings of people who voluntarily enter the water were swimmers- after all non-swimmers would have to be literally out of their mind (Drink/drugs, suicide) to enter the water.
and regarding the 44%
1) many of those were swimmers anyway
2) the most common age to drown is toddlers - including the proverbial drowning in 6 inches of water
3) some hit their head when they fell and were unconscious
4) some were drunk/drugs incidents
5) some entered the water because of foul play
and in those 5 types whether they had learnt to swim was probably unimportant

My point is everyone assumes learning to swim saves people but no-one actually looks at the figures 56% of drowning are swimmers and of the remaining 44% perhaps half (?) swimming ability didn't matter

These figures suggest that you 2-3 times more likely to drown if you learn to swim

But the most damning statistic is this  Eleven times more young men (age 12-29)  die by drowning than women of the same age (like the guys in the original post) 

lets get back to the original case - If they hadnt learnt to swim would they have gone into the water ? Would they be alive today ?

The stats quoted are for accidental drownings so foul play & suicide are excluded.

Your assertion that these figures suggest you are more likely to drown is incorrect - a classic case of association not causation.

That expert forum with decades of experience of dealing with accidental drownings recommend learning to swim as essential to help reduce deaths by 50%.

On the other side of the argument we have you and a yarn told to you by your aged relative.

Who should we believe? What a hard choice!

[timsussex]

Not just my grandfather (who knew several men that had drowned) - on another thread we discussed the RNLI gold medal for saving life - rarer than the VC - only 135 awarded in nearly 200 years (compared to 1350 VCs) The most famous recipient - Henry Blogg who won it 3 times (+ 4 silvers and a George Cross) and like many (?most) fishermen of the time he couldnt swim.

The current RNLI advice is DON'T try to swim to safety save your energy and float. Should we be teaching floating not swimming ?

My point is no-one as far as I can tell has looked at the figures and asked the simple question
Are you more likely to drown if you learn to swim ?
In the case of the original post surely the answer is yes ?
How many deaths from Tombstoning (thankfully no longer popular) were non swimmers ? I can't find any
In 56% (thats over half) of your source the people were swimmers - why else would you enter the water voluntarily ? 
and in some of the 44% it doesn't matter ?

Now I'm not suggesting we should stop all swimming - even though it might save lives - I'm just questioning the assumption that teaching swimming saves lives. The evidence suggests not

[mrwhite]

I stay near the Forth and Clyde canal, and quite often cycle to Balloch, and there always kids jumping of the bridge, into the river or canal

I think a few years back on a boy around 11 years old, lost his life, and over a few weeks here around 7 youths lost there lifes, and now cctv had to be installed

Jumping off that bridge is never a good idea, I saw one idiot a couple of years ago manage to jump off it and hit a boat that was going under it.. he ended up being pulled out of the water with a broken arm.

[lostandfound]

Not just my grandfather (who knew several men that had drowned) - on another thread we discussed the RNLI gold medal for saving life - rarer than the VC - only 135 awarded in nearly 200 years (compared to 1350 VCs) The most famous recipient - Henry Blogg who won it 3 times (+ 4 silvers and a George Cross) and like many (?most) fishermen of the time he couldnt swim.

The current RNLI advice is DON'T try to swim to safety save your energy and float. Should we be teaching floating not swimming ?

My point is no-one as far as I can tell has looked at the figures and asked the simple question
Are you more likely to drown if you learn to swim ?
In the case of the original post surely the answer is yes ?
How many deaths from Tombstoning (thankfully no longer popular) were non swimmers ? I can't find any
In 56% (thats over half) of your source the people were swimmers - why else would you enter the water voluntarily ? 
and in some of the 44% it doesn't matter ?

Now I'm not suggesting we should stop all swimming - even though it might save lives - I'm just questioning the assumption that teaching swimming saves lives. The evidence suggests not

That expert panel which recommended learning to swim as essential to help reduce accidental drownings by 50% had 3 members out of 13 from the RNLI.

So that's a firm recommendation in favour of learning to swim from the RNLI.

[Colston36]

I learned to swim about 82 years ago and still love it. Despite some of the tortuous arguments here, I cannot understand how NOT learning can be good for you. Ignorance is rarely bliss.

[radioman33]

I learned to swim about 82 years ago and still love it. Despite some of the tortuous arguments here, I cannot understand how NOT learning can be good for you. Ignorance is rarely bliss.

Totally agree,surely information could be given by YouTube influencers for the young generation.