Smart meters - are they safe?

[puntingking]

ENERGY SMART METERS:

Are they safe? Can they be hacked? Can energy companies or other organisations use them in some way or another to invade peoples privacy? Can energy data usage be sold to third parties?

Any info at all on the safety of smart meters I would be delighted 

[PepeMAGA]

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[Thephoenix]

Good program recently on ch 5.
'Smart Meters: Should I get One?'

[RandomGuy99]

I had 2 smart meters installed in 40 minutes. They work.

[puntingking]

Good program recently on ch 5.
'Smart Meters: Should I get One?'

External Link/Members Only

Website states "There are 32 million smart meters in UK homes right now but angry Channel 5 viewers have vowed never to get one after learning about how they can be used to spy on your usage by energy firms and by the government."

Not too sure why they would interested in how much energy people are using 

[puntingking]

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Good info. Not too sure if i can trust the info they giving me.

In the "about us" section the website says the following:

"About Smart Energy GB
Smart Energy GB is the independent, non-profit, government-backed organisation that helps households and small businesses across Great Britain to understand how smart meters can benefit them, their families and the environment."

Would rather get info on this from an organisation or media outlet with no motives in smart meters.

But thanks for the info nevertheless 

[puntingking]

I had 2 smart meters installed in 40 minutes. They work.

They do. But can they be compromised in any way?
 

[SonofAJohn]

Be careful, punting around smart meters...
Privacy/Discretion very important at all times.

[puntingking]

Be careful, punting around smart meters...
Privacy/Discretion very important at all times.

To be fair, it only can tell how much energy you use.

I doubt it will know if i boil the kettle for one extra person (and i may want 2 cups of tea)

[chrishornx]

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Website states "There are 32 million smart meters in UK homes right now but angry Channel 5 viewers have vowed never to get one after learning about how they can be used to spy on your usage by energy firms and by the government."

Not too sure why they would interested in how much energy people are using 

I thought the whole idea of smart meters was to allow the energy company to 'spy on you in so far as the can observe your usage remotely.

clearly there would be reasons the government would want to know, not relevant to any individual house necessarily but to get overall data of usage patterns area by area,  peak time usage etc and police may want data  to know of excessive use as an indicator of potential illegal use i.e. a cannabis farm 

[SonofAJohn]

To be fair, it only can tell how much energy you use.

I doubt it will know if i boil the kettle for one extra person (and i may want 2 cups of tea)

I would be thinking of a working girl setting up a fake device, putting a camera inside and recording you while you visit for an incall. To use for bribery and blackmail later.

[pbrown355]

Had several. They still don't work. I'd be impressed if someone hacked the current one, I'd then try to employ them to fix it.

[puntingking]

Had several. They still don't work. I'd be impressed if someone hacked the current one, I'd then try to employ them to fix it.

Not sure why everything always need to go digital/wireless.


 

[JontyR]

ENERGY SMART METERS:

Are they safe?

Any info at all on the safety of smart meters I would be delighted 

I wouldn't eat one unless I was certain it was cooked all the way through.

There was a thread a couple of years back which ran to 5 pages. I've now had one for a couple of years. The display hasn't been plugged in since it was unplugged for the Xmas lights. It was good for helping me to alter my habits in terms of more careful usage, not sure I will plug it back in any time soon.

[JontyR]

I would be thinking of a working girl setting up a fake device, putting a camera inside and recording you while you visit for an incall. To use for bribery and blackmail later.

I'd be more concerned of more realistic risks. Like cathcing rabies from the raccoon she keeps in the bedside cabinet.

[RandomGuy99]

They do. But can they be compromised in any way?
 

Well I think they were designed with support of the National Cyber Security Centre External Link/Members Only and security was built in from the start. See  External Link/Members Only External Link/Members Only ,  and External Link/Members Only for information

If someone was to compromise them then the worst thing they could do would be to cut off your gas and electricity and that could pose a risk to your safety if you had life supporting equipment at your home. They are not connected to your wifi, so they can't access your home network.

As they are recording your usage at intervals throughout the day they can determine when you perform certain activities and probably estimate how many people are in the property, what time you get up and go to work and what time you get home and go to bed. They can also figure out ehen you use your washing machine, tumble dryer, oven, kettle and other high usage devices. Does that pose a risk to you? Probably not.

[PepeMAGA]

I wouldn't eat one unless I was certain it was cooked all the way through.

There was a thread a couple of years back which ran to 5 pages. I've now had one for a couple of years. The display hasn't been plugged in since it was unplugged for the Xmas lights. It was good for helping me to alter my habits in terms of more careful usage, not sure I will plug it back in any time soon.

I've never used the display you get with them, but they are useful for things like variable tariffs, so the supplier can charge by the half hour

[Steve2]

On my 3rd one. None have worked properly. They still message me asking to send meter readings cos they can't read them.
Someone is making a huge amount of money swapping them over

[RandomGuy99]

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[nuckingfuts]

Anything can be “hacked” if the person doing it has enough time, resources and determination.

Safety is subjective and depends on your appetite for risk. Colloquially - yes. They’re safe to have installed. The smets2 units made by Toshiba send your usage information back to your chosen supplier. That’s it. Nothing magic.
Be sure to make sure there’s adequate mobile reception in the location and you’re not shielding it with metal casings or too many load bearing walls close by.

[spiralnotebook]

After thirty odd years working in the utility industry I can categorically state as I was once told ‘if they want you to do something it will be for their benefit’. Not to mention being told by a senior revenues manager ‘we like to think of our meters as cash registers’  , get the drift…

Oh and don’t they use your electricity?

And slightly off topic I just had full fibre broadband installed and the new BT Openreach boxes now run off your electricity along with your hub.

[RandomGuy99]

After thirty odd years working in the utility industry I can categorically state as I was once told ‘if they want you to do something it will be for their benefit’. Not to mention being told by a senior revenues manager ‘we like to think of our meters as cash registers’  , get the drift…

Oh and don’t they use your electricity?

And slightly off topic I just had full fibre broadband installed and the new BT Openreach boxes now run off your electricity along with your hub.

I think they run off a battery otherwise your gas meter would have to be connected to the electricity and mine definitely isn't.

The BT hub has to run off your power as they are dropping the old copper network which currently has a low voltage in it which can be used to keep your phone working even if there's a power cut. Once they drop the copper network your landline will no longer work in a power cut unless your update your phone to be locally powered External Link/Members Only

[puntingking]

After thirty odd years working in the utility industry I can categorically state as I was once told if they want you to do something it will be for their benefit’. Not to mention being told by a senior revenues manager ‘we like to think of o‘ur meters as cash registers’  , get the drift…

Oh and don’t they use your electricity?

And slightly off topic I just had full fibre broadband installed and the new BT Openreach boxes now run off your electricity along with your hub.

I agree but if he saves money then it would be for your benefit also. 

[pdq]

The meters are just that, its a meter of how much energy you use.
But the cost of getting that meter reading has been passed to the customer. ( e.g. the customer pays to power the meter).
The electronic meters were never intended to help the customer rather help the power generators etc.
How can a meter save you money ? persuade you to use less by showing you the power you use.

Whats worrying is its how that connected system can be used e.g. during lockdown folks in arrears were quickly moved to high cost contracts, or cut off remotely. and those are just the beginning.

So where I am sure its going to go

• Peak hour tariffs e.g. 6am to 8am,  5pm to 6pm. Reducing power generation costs by reducing loads at peak times.  (no benefit to the customer who will just pay more)
• If needed rolling blackouts e.g. every other meter turns off for 3 hours day. 
• be able to instantly cut off the power supply first then it leaves the customer all the work to do, to get it back on
• Catoragise the user better and if applicable bring in new "green taxs" 

an EU project that is all being carbon neutral

[Pillowtalk]

I've refused to have one, Can't see the point. The idea that a meter will save me money is nonsense. I'm quite capable of saving my own money. Plus, as others here have observed, they dont seem to work very well i.e. smart meters are really not that smart.

[myothernameis]

I've refused to have one,

Same here, but the companies dont half pester you to get a smart meter installed.  I have had emails, where they tell me, I have no choice and must book an appointment

At some point it will be law, and we might have no choice but to get a smart meter, but I would like to see some changes, that would make the industry competitive.

So this is my thought, you go out for your monthly shopping, and shop at the following; Tesco, Morrisons, Asda, Waitrose, Sainsbury, Marks & Spencers, are all at the top of the range

Lidl, Aldi, Poundland, B&M, Home Bargains, and corner shops, are in the medium range, and at the bottom of the range would say are the foodbanks

So we all chose where to shop, and check prices to find out what shops are cheaper, and if need be go to a foodbank

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Smart meter, think something similar should be done, and done on a 30 day rolling period, so at your end of 30 days, if you find a cheaper tariff, you can change, by entering reference no

[PepeMAGA]

So where I am sure its going to go

• Peak hour tariffs e.g. 6am to 8am,  5pm to 6pm. Reducing power generation costs by reducing loads at peak times.  (no benefit to the customer who will just pay more)
• If needed rolling blackouts e.g. every other meter turns off for 3 hours day. 
• be able to instantly cut off the power supply first then it leaves the customer all the work to do, to get it back on
• Catoragise the user better and if applicable bring in new "green taxs" 

an EU project that is all being carbon neutral

Octopus do this already, they have a variable rate per half hour. Saves a huge amount of money if you have batteries or are out of the house at peak times

[Doc Holliday]

Oh and don’t they use your electricity?

No. They are powered by the supply on the input side of the electricity meter and not the output.

Alos as Randomguy says the  gas meter is powered by a 10 year battery.

[Derrick101]

No. They are powered by the supply on the input side of the electricity meter and not the output.

Alos as Randomguy says the  gas meter is powered by a 10 year battery.
[/

[fredhiggins]

After thirty odd years working in the utility industry I can categorically state as I was once told ‘if they want you to do something it will be for their benefit’. Not to mention being told by a senior revenues manager ‘we like to think of our meters as cash registers’  , get the drift…

Oh and don’t they use your electricity?

And slightly off topic I just had full fibre broadband installed and the new BT Openreach boxes now run off your electricity along with your hub.

Any comments on all this lead-pipe replacement that Severn Trent are promoting?

[spiralnotebook]

Your smart meter will be fixed in place, usually in a cupboard inside or outside your home. You can put your IHD anywhere in your home. You'll need to either plug it in or use batteries.

Lead replacement..

Free lead replacement has been available for 30 years in one form or another and from all the major water companies. Be aware though usually it is only replaced up to the property boundary and you would need a wiaps registered plumber to renew your side. I prefer lead personally, to many minus points with mdpe pipes. I’m still convinced one of the reasons chlorine is added is to help control slime build up in standing water pipes not to mention gender changing attributes of plastics 

[cmspunk]

I had one in my old place not long before I moved out and was nothing but problems.
Never worked properly and all of a sudden, my bills shot up! Never had any issues or problems before it got put in.

3 years in my new place now and refuse to get a smart meter and won’t do unless, it becomes law but even then I will do my best not to.

[badsin]

I still haven't moved to the smart meters, and am also getting 'pestered' by my supplier to switch.
They are telling me there's a BBC frequency that's being turned off soon which will effect my meter readings..... obviously making my bill much more expensive.... anybody know anything about this?

Ohhh for the days of paying by cheque, quarterly, in arrears.

[RandomGuy99]

I still haven't moved to the smart meters, and am also getting 'pestered' by my supplier to switch.
They are telling me there's a BBC frequency that's being turned off soon which will effect my meter readings..... obviously making my bill much more expensive.... anybody know anything about this?

Ohhh for the days of paying by cheque, quarterly, in arrears.

That would be total BS.

They can't force you to have a smart meter. All the energy providers have a target for smart meter installations so they will try to encourage you to get one, so they can hit their target. I got ine to save myself having to take meter readings, so far they are working. The IHD is seitched off as I already know the high usage things I do and use.

[petermisc]

I still haven't moved to the smart meters, and am also getting 'pestered' by my supplier to switch.
They are telling me there's a BBC frequency that's being turned off soon which will effect my meter readings..... obviously making my bill much more expensive.... anybody know anything about this?

If you are on an old-type Economy electricity tariff, where the meter switches between two different tarrifs depending on the time of day, that switch is made by a long wave radio signal transmitted by the BBC.  The BBC has announced that they are ceasing transmission of that signal, as part of their general phasing out of LW broadcasts.  The effect will be that customers on these type of economy tarrifs will be permanently on the more expensive peak rate.

This kind of tarrif used to be popular with those with night storage heaters, for example.  As I understand it, with such.economy tarrifs, the trade off for getting a cheaper off peak rate was that you paid slightly more for the peak rate than those on flat rate tarrifs.  So the effect for such customers will be that they will be paying MORE than customers on simple flat rate tarrifs, and their bill could go up substantially.  BUT, this only applies to those on two-rate tarrifs who have a traditional meter or meters giving separate peak and off- peak readings. 

If this does apply to you, then AFAIA, the only way to keep getting a cheap off-peak tarrif is to switch to a smart meter.  If you want to keep your old meter, you should switch to a flat rate tarrif, so that at least you won't be paying over the odds for your leccy.

[badsin]

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[petermisc]

3 years in my new place now and refuse to get a smart meter and won’t do unless, it becomes law but even then I will do my best not to.

The problem will come when they decide that one or other of your existing meters is life expired, and needs replacing.  Fortunately my electricity meter was deemed life expired shortly before smart meters became the in thing.

In my previous property, the smart meter actually cost me a significant sum of money.  The fitter checked my installation, and determined that it didn't meet current standards.  For example, while he agreed that there was nothing wrong with the gas fires themselves, the standards now require a permanent vent in the room, whereas the standard at the time they were fitted only required an openable window.  My gas cooker was not up to standard either.  As he couldn't disconnect individual appliances, he would have to disconnect the entire gas supply, and I would need to get an approved gas installer in to reconnect it once I had had the necessary work done.

This kind of scenario was not mentioned in that Channel 5 documentary.  But I would advise anyone thinking of getting a smart meter fitted to first take a good look at your gas appliances and how old they are.  They may still be working perfectly fine, but if they are old their installation may not be up to current regulations.

[DastardlyDick]

police may want data  to know of excessive use as an indicator of potential illegal use i.e. a cannabis farm

The first thing Cannabis farms do is by pass the meter for this exact reason.
When the Met had India 99, the crew often used the thermal camera to scan every house in their flightpath when returning from a job. Now that it's NPAS, I'm not sure they still do.

[PumpDump]

ENERGY SMART METERS:

Are they safe? Can they be hacked? Can energy companies or other organisations use them in some way or another to invade peoples privacy? Can energy data usage be sold to third parties?

Any info at all on the safety of smart meters I would be delighted 

They can definitely be hacked. Anything connected to the internet can be hacked. The question is would someone actually be bothered to hack in to yours? Probably not.

[nuckingfuts]

They can definitely be hacked. Anything connected to the internet can be hacked. The question is would someone actually be bothered to hack in to yours? Probably not.

Are you saying you don’t want to know how many jigga-whats I’m using powering all these AI killer Robots?

[RandomGuy99]

They can definitely be hacked. Anything connected to the internet can be hacked. The question is would someone actually be bothered to hack in to yours? Probably not.

It's lucky they're not connected to the internet then.

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[petermisc]

They can definitely be hacked. Anything connected to the internet can be hacked.

Except smart meters aren't connected to the internet - they use a completely separate communications system.

Edit: beaten to it by Ramdonguy!

[PumpDump]

Except smart meters aren't connected to the internet - they use a completely separate communications system.

Edit: beaten to it by Ramdonguy!

Regardless, all networked systems are open to hacking.

[daviemac]

Regardless, all networked systems are open to hacking.

You get worse with every post, what can anybody gain by hacking a device that only relays the amount of energy used. 

[RandomGuy99]

You get worse with every post, what can anybody gain by hacking a device that only relays the amount of energy used. 

Well they can do remote disconnects, so they could turn your power off and a country like Russia or China could cause havoc by turning off 10,000s of homes.  However, that's why the design was checked by the NCSC.

[daviemac]

Well they can do remote disconnects, so they could turn your power off and a country like Russia or China could cause havoc by turning off 10,000s of homes.  However, that's why the design was checked by the NCSC.

It would take a while for them to hack into every smart meter one by one and I'm sure Russia or China will have more important things to worry about.

If other hackers really want to know how much energy I'm using all they have to do is ask and I'll tell them, no need to hack into my meter.

Don't forget there's an awful lot of hoops energy companies have to jump through before they disconnect a customer, they can't just turn it off if they want to.

[RandomGuy99]

It would take a while for them to hack into every smart meter one by one and I'm sure Russia or China will have more important things to worry about.

If other hackers really want to know how much energy I'm using all they have to do is ask and I'll tell them, no need to hack into my meter.

Don't forget there's an awful lot of hoops energy companies have to jump through before they disconnect a customer, they can't just turn it off if they want to.

It wouldn't take long if they supplied some of the networking equipment or they identified a common ossue they all had and they just take them out. They wouldn't have to hack each meter. They just need to hack the central system that can send them messages. If you did that you could send messages to 10,000s of meters and all the meter would do what they're told as the messages are all coming from the normal source of messages.

Legally there are lots of hoops they have to jump through. Technically there aren't.

Imagine if you wanted to mess with the UK. You could cause panic and civil unrest by disconnecting the power in a few cities and letting all hell break loose. Do that while there is a bad winter you could cause deaths and travel chaos. Factories might not have power to make food products. Roads would be dark. Burglar alarms would not work. Crime would increase. Your mobile phone towers all stop working. Your personal mobile phones eventually run out of power and you can't charge them as there is no electricity.   This is the kind of attack Russia is targeting Ukraine with every day. The UK and others are helping them fight a Cyber war too. The US caused the destruction of a Uranium refining plant in Iran with a Cyber attack. Cyber attacks can cripple companies. You can cause economic havoc with Cyber attacks.

Do all of that while the UK is fighting overseas and you could cause resupply issues or cause distractions while more standard but targeted military attacks take place on key infrastructure or you could just let the UK destroy itself through civil unrest and people fighting amongst themselves.

China, Russia and other organisations are already engaged in low level cyber attacks with misinformation spread on social media platforms which is designed to cause conflict between different ethnic groups. These attacks use fake videos showing events that didn't occur or misrepresented facts. It's all about causing divides between different groups causing them to fight amongst themselves. In the run up to the US and UK elections the pace of these attacks will increase. Most voters won't be able to tell the fakes from real content. These might cause people to vote for one candidate and not the other.

These attacks happen every single day. They are keeping the intelligence services busy. Do enough of the attacks at the same time and you overwhelm the capacity to block and fight back.

You don't really need bombs and missiles anymore. You can cause enough havoc with Cyber attacks. 

[daviemac]

Legally there are lots of hoops they have to jump through. Technically there aren't.

Ok   

Have you ever had your energy supplies disconnected?

[RandomGuy99]

Ok   

Have you ever had your energy supplies disconnected?

No.

With a smart meter they don't need to gain entry to your property to do it.

[PumpDump]

You get worse with every post, what can anybody gain by hacking a device that only relays the amount of energy used. 

I said it was technically possible, I also said to the OP it was unlikely anyone would want to hack in to his.