The Alabama nitrogen execution

[catweazle]

Sometime in the next 24 hours (they originally had a 30 hour window,  but the first 6 have elapsed) the state of Alabama will attempt to execute Kenneth Smith by nitrogen hypoxia( having tried to kill him in 2022 by intravenous lethal injection)

Apparently ( although much of their protocol released publicly is heavily redacted) they will taken him to the death chamber, strap him to a gurney  then fit a respiration mask over his head.

Pure nitrogen will then be pumped into it, depriving him of oxygen.  The theory ( as its untried) is that the deprivation  of oxygen will firstly render him unconscious and then secondly kill him.

Firstly, I will state that I am against the death penalty anywhere, in any circumstances.  I don't believe  that any civilised  society should be killing its own citizens.

Secondly, notwithstanding that Smith himself originally requested this method,  it seems barbaric. The knowledge that you will be intentionally killed in the next 24 hours must be, of itself  terrifying, but then to be strapped down and this respirator mask forced over your head, and nitrogen pumped in, in a hitherto untried "experiment " is simply horrible .

I hope - notwithstanding his crimes- that this gruesome  testing of a method of killing someone actually  works, and Smith doesn't suffer, or (as has been hypothesised) become a vegetable.

[JontyR]

Like the OP I'm against the death penalty.

There was a programme15 years ago in which Michael Portillo looked in to finding a more humane way of conducint executions and hypoxia was the solution he came up with.

From memory when he took the solution to some in the states the reaction was not positive. The inference being that they wanted the death penalty not to be particularly humane and that it was the wish of society to be avenged.

I wonder whether the who strapping down aspect and the forcing of the gas upon the felon is a "concession" to the swivel-eyed.

I've tracked the programme down online, External Link/Members Only

[catweazle]

The inference being that they wanted the death penalty not to be particularly humane and that it was the wish of society to be avenged.

I seem to recall that one of the Supreme Court judges once said something along the lines of "a condemned prisoner cannot expect their execution to be painless - they need to know they're being put to death " (as if being strapped to a gurney and lethal drugs being pumped into your arm isn't knowledge  enough).

[advent2016]

Firstly, I will state that I am against the death penalty anywhere, in any circumstances.  I don't believe  that any civilised  society should be killing its own citizens.

I don't generally like Capital punishment used routinely.
I would accept its use in a few circumstances where there is incontrovertible evidence  - War crimes where an individual has committed genocide. Convicted for homicide of a member of blue light services.  Mass murderers.  I would like life means life,  stay in prison without parole for terms of hundreds of years.

I don't know why in the US they don't use one of the already successful methods like lethal injection with drugs or electrocution.

[daviemac]

I don't know why in the US they don't use one of the already successful methods like lethal injection with drugs or electrocution.

The drug companies won't supply them for use in executions, there was a bit of a panic on a while ago as the remaining stocks were going out of date.

[advent2016]

The drug companies won't supply them for use in executions, there was a bit of a panic on a while ago as the remaining stocks were going out of date.

Thanks, I didn't know that. If it was controlled centrally, federally they could force them to supply or manufacture for the government. You'd have thought the mostly republican drug companies wouldn't have such scruples.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Well the woman who was murdered didnt get a choice in how she was killed, so why should he .. but..

I think that they should abolish the death penalty and its life, for your natural life imprisionmnet, just in case they do find that someone else actuially did the killing.

Thet happened in the USA a short while ago didnt it?..

[catweazle]

The drug companies won't supply them for use in executions, there was a bit of a panic on a while ago as the remaining stocks were going out of date.

Additionally  as in Smith's first execution attempt, they spent 4 hours trying to find  a suitable vein to insert the line.

In another case  one of the lines was inserted into an artery in the man's thigh; it came away and basically pumped sedative into his trousers.

The execution chamber staff are not doctors, and doctors won't assist ( first line of the Hippocratic Oath says "First, do no harm")

[daviemac]

Additionally  as in Smith's first execution attempt, they spent 4 hours trying to find  a suitable vein to insert the line.

In another case  one of the lines was inserted into an artery in the man's thigh; it came away and basically pumped sedative into his trousers.

The execution chamber staff are not doctors, and doctors won't assist ( first line of the Hippocratic Oath says "First, do no harm")

There's also been reports of the initial sedative that knocks them out wearing off and them regaining consciousness mid execution.

[chrishornx]

There's also been reports of the initial sedative that knocks them out wearing off and them regaining consciousness mid execution.

Ouch

why not just give them a general anaesthetic like for an op, which works for millions every year, and then gas them ?

[WASA38]

 Google informs that since 1973 at least 196 people who had been wrongly convicted and sentenced to death in the U.S. have been exonerated.

Just one should have sufficed to stop judicial murder.

[StingRay]

Get the saudis in to chop its head off! 

[timsussex]

There are some animals out there that deserve to die. A couple of years ago there was a tv program about US executions. There was one guy, who didnt challenge the verdict and that was the only good thing I could say about him. Various do-gooders challenged anyway and lost. The police had been called to an office where they found a mother and daughter beaten to death it was only when the crime scene photographer used flash that the daughters body twitched and she was taken to hospital and survived. Sound like pretty dumb police but half of her skull is now a metal plate and it was a miracle she was around to identify the guy. She had pleaded with him not to hurt her mother and he replied I'm finished with her, now I'm going to hurt you. Scum like that dont deserve to live

But

I lived near Guilford and followed the trials and rejected appeals of the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six - all of whom 90% of the public would have happily strung up. While reports of the trials seemed decisive the appeals - which were rejected worried me. Dodgy forensics, confessions obtained by beatings; between their arrests and first court appearance they had clearly been beaten up - the Police blamed the prison officers and the POs blamed the police no-one has ever been convicted. At one appeal the defence even produced a hand written sheet by the DCI in charge which seemed to be a timeline how  the false confessions were obtained. The DCI admitted that it was his writing but couldnt explain it.

Now none of those 10 were what I would call innocent but they should never have been convicted and it should never have taken so many appeals to clear them. So reluctantly my lack of faith in the police and justice system mean I cannot support capital punishment - and I believe our police are far better than the USA.

With regards to methods - of course any method will be traumatic and it does seem strange that companies can refuse to allow their anaesthetics to be used - perhaps Dignitas can help ? I'd be happier if the mask was avoided - perhaps a method were their normal cell was flooded with Nitrogen while they slept   

[PhelTGrik]

A BA set filled with helium would-be more effective. You should see how concerned Google gets when you search the term "exit hood".

[timsussex]

Get the saudis in to chop its head off! 

I lived in Saudi and they claimed that only criminals who had admitted their crimes - and I mean in court not a dodgy confession were executed.
So can you imagine what the prisons are like that even hardened criminals prefer death to life imprisonment. Suffice to say that if one tenth of the rumours about prison conditions were true I would opt for the chop !

[catweazle]

So, it's done, and Smith is dead.  It either went exactly as intended  or caused suffering as he "fought for his life", depending on which side of the argument you stand.

As for administering a general anaesthetic   in the original 3-dose protocol, first dose renders the person unconscious   dose 2 is a paralytic and dose 3 induces cardiac arrest.  As already commented,  drug manufacturers refuse to supply the drugs for use in this way.

[spiralnotebook]

Shocking…

[PumpDump]

External Link/Members Only

This guy Kenneth Smith was executed using nitrogen gas in Alabama last night. By all accounts it sounds pretty gruesome:

"According to witnesses, the execution took about 22 minutes and Smith appeared to remain conscious for several minutes.
For at least two minutes, he appeared to shake and writhe, sometimes pulling against the restraints. That was followed by several minutes of heavy breathing, until breathing was no longer perceptible."


So what are your views on the death penalty? Do you agree with it being outlawed in this country? Would you like to see it brought back for some types of convictions? Would you be worried about innocent people being executed? If you agree with it being brought back, how would you ensure innocent people are not put to death? Is jail time enough of a deterrent?

[Followyourdick]

Death penalty has been used far too often on subsequently proven innocents, too late then init. 
For that reason alone it should not be brought back.

[RandomGuy99]

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=395090.0

[PumpDump]

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=395090.0

Awh thanks. I searched for Death Penalty before posting but missed that thread.

[PumpDump]

Sometime in the next 24 hours (they originally had a 30 hour window,  but the first 6 have elapsed) the state of Alabama will attempt to execute Kenneth Smith by nitrogen hypoxia( having tried to kill him in 2022 by intravenous lethal injection)

Apparently ( although much of their protocol released publicly is heavily redacted) they will taken him to the death chamber, strap him to a gurney  then fit a respiration mask over his head.

Pure nitrogen will then be pumped into it, depriving him of oxygen.  The theory ( as its untried) is that the deprivation  of oxygen will firstly render him unconscious and then secondly kill him.

Firstly, I will state that I am against the death penalty anywhere, in any circumstances.  I don't believe  that any civilised  society should be killing its own citizens.

Secondly, notwithstanding that Smith himself originally requested this method,  it seems barbaric. The knowledge that you will be intentionally killed in the next 24 hours must be, of itself  terrifying, but then to be strapped down and this respirator mask forced over your head, and nitrogen pumped in, in a hitherto untried "experiment " is simply horrible .

I hope - notwithstanding his crimes- that this gruesome  testing of a method of killing someone actually  works, and Smith doesn't suffer, or (as has been hypothesised) become a vegetable.

You say that you are against the death penalty as any "civilised  society should be killing its own citizens". But isn't keeping someone like Anders Behring Breivik in isolation just as bad? Isn't mental torture as bad, perhaps worse, than killing someone? External Link/Members Only

People seem to think being locked up forever is some kind of picnic? Try spending even one day locked in a small room in your house (the toilet for example) with nothing to do, no phone, no computer. Now imagine that for the rest of your life.

[Blackpool Rock]

How about death by Dutch oven     

[PumpDump]

There are some animals out there that deserve to die. A couple of years ago there was a tv program about US executions. There was one guy, who didnt challenge the verdict and that was the only good thing I could say about him. Various do-gooders challenged anyway and lost. The police had been called to an office where they found a mother and daughter beaten to death it was only when the crime scene photographer used flash that the daughters body twitched and she was taken to hospital and survived. Sound like pretty dumb police but half of her skull is now a metal plate and it was a miracle she was around to identify the guy. She had pleaded with him not to hurt her mother and he replied I'm finished with her, now I'm going to hurt you. Scum like that dont deserve to live

But

I lived near Guilford and followed the trials and rejected appeals of the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six - all of whom 90% of the public would have happily strung up. While reports of the trials seemed decisive the appeals - which were rejected worried me. Dodgy forensics, confessions obtained by beatings; between their arrests and first court appearance they had clearly been beaten up - the Police blamed the prison officers and the POs blamed the police no-one has ever been convicted. At one appeal the defence even produced a hand written sheet by the DCI in charge which seemed to be a timeline how  the false confessions were obtained. The DCI admitted that it was his writing but couldnt explain it.

Now none of those 10 were what I would call innocent but they should never have been convicted and it should never have taken so many appeals to clear them. So reluctantly my lack of faith in the police and justice system mean I cannot support capital punishment - and I believe our police are far better than the USA.

With regards to methods - of course any method will be traumatic and it does seem strange that companies can refuse to allow their anaesthetics to be used - perhaps Dignitas can help ? I'd be happier if the mask was avoided - perhaps a method were their normal cell was flooded with Nitrogen while they slept   

I see your concerns. I don't trust the police, I think some of them would have no problem framing, or making the evidence fit. But what about cases where the evidence is clear for all to see, for example the murder is caught on CCTV?

[Blackpool Rock]

I see your concerns. I don't trust the police, I think some of them would have no problem framing, or making the evidence fit. But what about cases where the evidence is clear for all to see, for example the murder is caught on CCTV?

Years ago there were numerous instances of people being framed, just grab the 1st person you saw walking down the road then beat a confession out of them etc 
I don't think it's nearly as bad these days and the courts are also far more cynical in dealing with law enforcement to the point that proving something can be almost impossible

However it would have to be 100% certain with CCTV etc before you could actually impose the death sentence and even then it would be after years on death row

[elnukky]

If you don't agree with the maxim, 'it is better to let 10 guilty go free than to condemn one innocent', then sure, bring it back. There have been numerous cases where the person doing time has been exonerated after new evidence and years of appeal. We have a good system, but it is not perfect, so I do not support it.

[JontyR]

I see your concerns. I don't trust the police, I think some of them would have no problem framing, or making the evidence fit. But what about cases where the evidence is clear for all to see, for example the murder is caught on CCTV?

AI? Deep fake? And whilst the action may be supposedly self-evident the context is often not seen. Also there is the question of the mental capacity and state of the individual.

[mr.bluesky]

The death penalty cannot be reversed if someone is later found to be innocent through new evidence but life imprisonment should be exactly that. No parole or let out after 20 years, life should mean life.

[Colston36]

Like the OP I'm against the death penalty.

There was a programme15 years ago in which Michael Portillo looked in to finding a more humane way of conducint executions and hypoxia was the solution he came up with.

From memory when he took the solution to some in the states the reaction was not positive. The inference being that they wanted the death penalty not to be particularly humane and that it was the wish of society to be avenged.

I wonder whether the who strapping down aspect and the forcing of the gas upon the felon is a "concession" to the swivel-eyed.

I've tracked the programme down online, External Link/Members Only

I go to the US regularly for family and business there. But what a retrograde, nasty society it is. Way behind genuinely civilised countries - in so many ways .., and now due for another dose of the crook Trump.

[mr.bluesky]

I go to the US regularly for family and business there. But what a retrograde, nasty society it is. Way behind genuinely civilised countries - in so many ways .., and now due for another dose of the crook Trump.

If Trump gets into the Whitehouse again then it really does show the lack of intelligence of your average American 

[mills_and_bhuna]

Well there's a surprise.
Getting into politics.

[JontyR]

If Trump gets into the Whitehouse again then it really does show the lack of intelligence of your average American 

Didn't think Mary was his type.

[WASA38]

Didn't think Mary was his type.

or necrophilia  for that matter..

[DastardlyDick]

Without going into the ethics of Capital Punishment, this method of execution may work well on a willing participant but can you imagine trying to get the mask etc on someone who wasn't?

[berksboy]

Good thats hes dead and if he suffered so what its no more then he deserved. Since the USA is odsessed with guns why dont they just shoot them ? Got to be better then all this fluffing around ?

[jamesdean1964]

Good thats hes dead and if he suffered so what its no more then he deserved. Since the USA is odsessed with guns why dont they just shoot them ? Got to be better then all this fluffing around ?

I believe one of the reasons hanging stopped was because the ran out of people willing to be the nooseman. Apparently it became a mentally torturous profession for many. Maybe the same would happen with finding someone to be ithe executioner with a gun.
Though with modern technology they should be able to automate it.

[Andywb]

External Link/Members Only

This article discusses use of the firing squad. Apparently last used in Utah in 2010, but some prisoners are asking to be shot rather than subjected to more experimental methods

[DastardlyDick]

External Link/Members Only

This article discusses use of the firing squad. Apparently last used in Utah in 2010, but some prisoners are asking to be shot rather than subjected to more experimental methods

That could work if you used a firing squad - just issue one gun with a blank preloaded then everyone could say "I didn't shoot him" afterwards.

[berksboy]

Thanks was a good read.

[berksboy]

When i fired the SLR is was very easy to tell the differnce between blank and live ammo.

[timsussex]

I gather some (all?) states offer the condemmed men a choice of methods

Unfortunately smothering by Sofia Vergara is not on the list anywhere

[berksboy]

"Maybe the same would happen with finding someone to be ithe executioner with a gun."

I do remember reading a article were one State was looking for members to form a firing squad so is was decided to ask for volunteers from serving frontline police officers and they were overwhelmed with volunteers.

[DastardlyDick]

When i fired the SLR is was very easy to tell the differnce between blank and live ammo.

Never having fired an SLR, I will take your word for it! It is, however, what the British Army used to do when they had Firing Squads.

[Munter84]

"According to witnesses, the execution took about 22 minutes and Smith appeared to remain conscious for several minutes.
For at least two minutes, he appeared to shake and writhe, sometimes pulling against the restraints. That was followed by several minutes of heavy breathing, until breathing was no longer perceptible."

Holding his breath, it sounds like?

I'm really not sure why they couldn't have rendered him unconscious first.

[daviemac]

I'm really not sure why they couldn't have rendered him unconscious first.

How do you propose they do that, hit him on the head with a big stick??? 

[DastardlyDick]

If Trump gets into the Whitehouse again then it really does show the lack of intelligence of your average American 

Given that a lot of Trumps supporters said they thought the Affordable Care Act was a good thing, but Obama Care was bad, I'd agree with that.

[daviemac]

Given that a lot of Trumps supporters said they thought the Affordable Care Act was a good thing, but Obama Care was bad, I'd agree with that.

What has this got to do with the topic of this thread. 

[scutty brown]

Never having fired an SLR, I will take your word for it! It is, however, what the British Army used to do when they had Firing Squads.

It should be a bit obvious if a cartridge case is tipped with a bullet or not

[scutty brown]

Holding his breath, it sounds like?

I'm really not sure why they couldn't have rendered him unconscious first.

Not "holding his breath". He was trying to breath. Struggling to get oxygen into his lungs. Fighting against suffocation.
The nitrogen doesn't kill: 70% or so of the atmosphere is nitrogen. It's the lack of oxygen which kills.

I'm of the firm opinion that anyone who proposes a new form of execution should be the first to experience it as test guinea pig.

[JontyR]

Not "holding his breath". He was trying to breath. Struggling to get oxygen into his lungs. Fighting against suffocation.
The nitrogen doesn't kill: 70% or so of the atmosphere is nitrogen. It's the lack of oxygen which kills.

I'm of the firm opinion that anyone who proposes a new form of execution should be the first to experience it as test guinea pig.

Closer to 80% I beleive but that's not the question here.

Some witness testimony suggested that he was attempting to hold his breath. It's sort of natural I suppose, our whole expectation is that the gas will be poisonous. The mask does nothing to dissuade this.

The impact of the nitrogen applcation is that you don't gasp for air. The air is there. It just doesn't contain what you need. By the time you may have realsied its actually an issue your brain is too fucked to notice, but this is where the "humanity" of the method is supposedly better. You aren't meant to care what's happening, there are feelings reported of calm and even of euphoria.

It may be better if there was an initial application of an anaesthetic agent, but I believe (feel free to correct) most of these are the ones that were used in the lethal injections and therefore aren't being provided. Would the drug companies take a different view if they were being used not as the lethal agent?