Author Topic: Conscription-we are f*cked!  (Read 4458 times)

Online Doc Holliday

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Online Doc Holliday

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amazing.
Your first paragraph was fine.
Then some lunatic with a shaky grip on reality sneaked in and typed some rambling nonsense.
Did you go for a cuppa?

Do you communicate in an obnoxious manner towards other people in real life as you do on here? Just curious?

Online Doc Holliday

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Have you met any old people lately? You know, the ones that fucked up this country?

I have the good fortune of working with young people (both in paid and unpaid/voluntary capacity) who are clever, hard working and extremely resilient who have inherited a shit load of crap that us older people have left for them. Yet despite that they give me a lot of hope for this country.  I am also father of young adults who have surpassed my wildest expectations and have made me very proud to be the father of incredible young adults.



Likewise so +1

Offline 8MillionDollarMan

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Offline mills_and_bhuna

Do you communicate in an obnoxious manner towards other people in real life as you do on here? Just curious?
I very rarely encounter people raving about Putin every chance they get.
Maybe it's just an English thing

Offline Blackpool Rock

In 1900 life expectancy in England was 39 and there are plenty of tails of recruiting officers being horrified by the very low quality and poor health of potential recruits, for e.g. the Boer war.
Just under 47, still shockingly young but actually about 20% higher  :scare:
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Henry McCallion Gow is an ex SAS soldier who is now a barrister, saw him in an interview about the SAS and he had the same problem, hardly made it into the basic army as they thought he was malnourished

Offline Yankee21

Facts at least I don't pretend to be someone on the internet  ;)
No - you are expressing an opinion not facts.

Offline Thephoenix

There are pros and cons of national service, but I don't think it's such a bad idea.

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2024, 10:25:05 pm by Thephoenix »

Offline badsin

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*the Scots have in recent centuries been a formidable force within the UK armed forces.

I wonder how conscription would cope with modern times. Would qualifying females be conscripted? Would diversity targets be hit?
What about those in the general population that may hold greater allegiance to other countries than the country they reside within. Maybe regiments based on familiar backgrounds, much like the old Pals brigade's.

The yanks had a hard task after Vietnam. Veteran's often abused, now the opposite. Veteran's get private health care, and other benefits within society,. We should learn from them, we've been shit with our veterans for decades.
We should start with a change of language, the military, police, public services are not a 'cost' on a budget spreadsheet - it's an investment and should be talked about in that manor.
"We commit to invest in the navy, army, RAF etc ".....





Offline wristjob


I suspect the Ukrainian youngster were similar to ours and they have joined up and kicked Putin where it hurts, at huge cost to themselves.

Except they haven't, the average age of ukranian soldiers is around 40.

Offline wristjob

Have you not met any young people lately?
They want safe spaces and free stuff,most of them can't be arsed to work let alone go to war.

I really want to believe that, want to believe I'm smarter than they are and that our generation are better but not sure it's true. I kinds of agree they are a bit soft but the ones I've met are sharp as anything and more than willing to learn and work. I guess  it depends on the type of people you get exposed to.

Offline JontyR

Its the idea that any group can be put into only two boxes that amazes me.

There are plenty of young people of my experience that would serve their country brilliantly. It would be bloody stupid, and wasteful, to put them in the army though.

Offline akauya

With respect I'm right and you're wrong.

Oh dear.


Old people fucked up this country  :lol:
You should stop reading tabloids too they are for thick people no wonder you don't have a balanced view of young people  :hi:

You make sweeping statements about young people and yet you accuse me of not having a balanced view of young people.  If reading and comprehension were a race, you'd stumble at the first hurdle and then hit all the rest.

Offline spiralnotebook

It’s all rubbish, if you believe the media Russia can’t even manage to invade the Ukraine, has lost most of its MBT’s airforce and navy. so what chance against the whole of Europe and for some reason the UK?
Bizarre.

Online RandomGuy99

It’s all rubbish, if you believe the media Russia can’t even manage to invade the Ukraine, has lost most of its MBT’s airforce and navy. so what chance against the whole of Europe and for some reason the UK?
Bizarre.
But the war in Ukraine has highlighted that modern military doctrine assumes short engagements using smart weapons. The reality is if you get into a long conflict supply of smart weapons struggles to keep up.  The key factor to who might win a conflict is now who has the ability to quickly replace the weapons and ammunition that are being used.

Offline Blackpool Rock

But the war in Ukraine has highlighted that modern military doctrine assumes short engagements using smart weapons. The reality is if you get into a long conflict supply of smart weapons struggles to keep up.  The key factor to who might win a conflict is now who has the ability to quickly replace the weapons and ammunition that are being used.
That's probably always been the case unless the invader can secure a quick and decisive victory.

In WW1 they ramped up production of shells etc and I believe this is what caused the introduction of licencing laws in pubs so that workers weren't too pissed and came back to work  :drinks:

There is also a series on the Yesterday channel called something like WW2 in numbers and it goes through what equipment each side had at the start of the war and how over the years the production numbers developed.
It's well worth a watch if you get a chance and quite eye opening, what I took away from the series is that Hitler should / could have won the war if he'd played his hand differently and stopped interfering with production and let his Generals do their job.

German production stalled as Hitler kept going for the "Big projects" but had so many on the go that there weren't enough resource so in the end most never actually got finished.
He fucked up production of things like newly developed bombers as he'd insist on the design being changed at the last minute, one instance was when he said that a new bomber had to be changed so that it was a "dive bomber" like the Stuka which had great success however the original design had to basically be scrapped as that wasn't the original brief they had worked to  :dash:

The allies really came good once America ramped up production using mass production line techniques and entered the war, eventually  :rolleyes:

Offline Punterperson1971

Ironic that years ago people rushed to the recruiting office to sign up before a war was over and they had next to fuck all to lose

Despite a seemingly daily news article about how people are living in poverty or a fly buzzing in their rented flat paid for by housing benefit has affected their mental health and wellbeing people these days have a damn sight more than they did years ago

Sign up would be poor these days and IMO it would also be hard to conscript as so many would either dodge or try to dodge it and that's before you get into whether or not they are actually fit enough to actually do it due to being an obese fat fucker

I can see why people would resist as these days we are aware of the full horrors of war whereas years ago they were lied to and told it was a jolly jape well at least WW1, for WW2 it was clear to most what Hitler was doing and that basically we were next
However even if there was a direct risk to the UK I just don't see that a lot of people would actually give a fuck  :thumbsdown:
With some of the youngsters now the only thing a fly will be buzzing around will be the empty space between their ears 😂😂😂

Offline Adoniron

How about we increase recruitment by paying soldiers better (£19,000 - seriously?) and give them decent food and accommodation?

Online RandomGuy99

How about we increase recruitment by paying soldiers better (£19,000 - seriously?) and give them decent food and accommodation?
And they make them pay rent for their accommodation.

Offline sir wanksalot

How about we increase recruitment by paying soldiers better (£19,000 - seriously?) and give them decent food and accommodation?

It's £ 19k at entry level which is typically an 18 yr old.

There's plenty of pay scales above that and a generous private pension.

You're prompting me to go off on a tangent but have the armed forces EVER gone on strike over pay?

Offline catweazle

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They do pay rent.  I think they're legally forbidden to strike  ( like the police,)

Offline badsin

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How about we increase recruitment by paying soldiers better (£19,000 - seriously?) and give them decent food and accommodation?

I think canteen etc is outsourced to serco or similar.
Bring everything back 'inhouse" so the cook is also a soldier

Offline JontyR

They do pay rent.  I think they're legally forbidden to strike  ( like the police,)

There was an episode of Spooks on this subject which was repeated on one of the cable channels last week.


Online RandomGuy99

They do pay rent.  I think they're legally forbidden to strike  ( like the police,)
I don't think they should be paying rent. It's probably some tax thing as their accommodation is provided by their employer.

Offline Blackpool Rock

There was a series some 15/20 years ago called 'bad lads army '. Where modern youths of the time were put through some 1950's style conscription exercises.... Made a few series of this, narrated by Dennis Waterman.
As would be expected, some were pony, some excelled and went on to join the regular army.
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I used to love that Bad lads army, bits of it were funny as fuck and as you say there were always a few with ADHD / similar / whatever who were fucking useless and will be fucking useless all their lives but for others it did actually snap them out of their slumber and they used it as a positive experience  :drinks:

Offline Adoniron

It's £ 19k at entry level which is typically an 18 yr old.

There's plenty of pay scales above that and a generous private pension.

You're prompting me to go off on a tangent but have the armed forces EVER gone on strike over pay?

They are not allowed to go on strike.

Most 18 year olds earning £19k aren't asked to put their lives on the line.

By way of comparison, the starting salary in the police is £21,400.

Offline David1970

I am going to be the awkward one here and disagree. Our generation always runs down the young and that would have been the same before both world wars. But when required they step up and get the job done. Usually it is the leaders from our generation that are fucking useless.

I suspect the Ukrainian youngster were similar to ours and they have joined up and kicked Putin where it hurts, at huge cost to themselves.

100% correct, my elder sister was part of the punk generation “worst generation ever” according to the coffin dodgers, out of her class at school 3 served in combat in the Falklands War. One Royal Marine, one Para and a sailor, also one who made it as far a  Ascension Island with the RAF regiment, all did a good job.
I wonder how many of the grumpy old blokes complaining about the younger generation have served their country?

Offline Blackpool Rock

100% correct, my elder sister was part of the punk generation “worst generation ever” according to the coffin dodgers, out of her class at school 3 served in combat in the Falklands War. One Royal Marine, one Para and a sailor, also one who made it as far a  Ascension Island with the RAF regiment, all did a good job.
I wonder how many of the grumpy old blokes complaining about the younger generation have served their country?
So the punks in her class signed up then  :unknown:

Offline sir wanksalot

100% correct, my elder sister was part of the punk generation “worst generation ever” according to the coffin dodgers, out of her class at school 3 served in combat in the Falklands War. One Royal Marine, one Para and a sailor, also one who made it as far a  Ascension Island with the RAF regiment, all did a good job.
I wonder how many of the grumpy old blokes complaining about the younger generation have served their country?

I wish I could thank her for her service (sincerely).

She volunteered to do that job. The question is whether today's "youth" would comply with a full on conscription in time of war.

I will put my cards on the table. I'm middle aged and been brought up to defend what you believe in and yes, even go to war if necessary but I'm not sure I would sign up with any amount of patriotic zeal.

This brings me back to a drum I've been banging since Brexit. What is our identity anymore as a country? What would I be fighting for?

Online rickyponting

Sign up to a war just so the rich can stay rich and get richer?

No thanks and good luck putting everyone I prison who refuses to sign up,they're overcrowded enough as it is.

Offline Charlie Chalk


You're prompting me to go off on a tangent but have the armed forces EVER gone on strike over pay?
Yes, the Navy in 1931

Offline Charlie Chalk

Then some lunatic with a shaky grip on reality sneaked in and typed some rambling nonsense
There’s only one person I can think of who matches that description, & it isn’t the poster you quoted…

Offline DastardlyDick

We used to have National Service, a form of conscription, but it was scrapped - there must have been a reason, which may still be valid.
My Uncle avoided National Service by taking a job in the Post Office, then joined the Army as soon as it was scrapped, served in the Tank Regiment for 30 years and left as a Warrant Officer with 2 Distinguished Service Medals and a UN Peace Keeping Medal.
As with any group of people, today's youngsters have good and bad apples among them, and shouldn't all be started with the same brush.

Offline hullad

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We got rid of conscription because it was failing to provide the necessary quality of personel needed in modern forces.
They used to be conscripted for two years,

six months to knock the civilian out of them
Six months to get them into soldiers etc.
Six months to use them
Six months they where no use as they prepared for civilian again

I was told this when I joined the RAF in late 1968 and I went on a three year apprenticeship as an armourer. A modern squaddie has loads to learn it's very complex these days and they are constantly under manned ( sorry personed )

We have two carriers tied up in port because we have not enough crews for them,

 aircrew not trained to operate off them, 31 F35 in service and only 30 pilots to fly them

our training is behind because its short of aircraft and training of Ukrainians

not enough ships to protect them only 3 out of six destroyers

 8 out 11 frigates and no nuclear subs as all 6 are tied up

 Add on no support ship as the only one we have is in deep repair,

Two assault ships tied up no crews.

The army has around 40 tanks operational

A new AFV years behind to replace very old AFVs that break down all the time

Most of the above is down to budget cuts and lack of planning, in fact this lot in power we,are so very weak now
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 02:44:04 pm by hullad »

Offline Corus Boy

I would doubt that the UK Military would welcome the idea.

The cost of training, maintaining discipline, housing and the distraction from the Military's main mission?

Perhaps a conscription into a Public Service Maintenance Brigade, training in aspects of buildings and set them on filling potholes, impproving schools, hospitals and other public buildings?

The problem is that it starts to sound like American Chain Gangs.

Online RandomGuy99

We got rid of conscription because it was failing to provide the necessary quality of personel needed in modern forces.
They used to be conscripted for two years,

six months to knock the civilian out of them
Six months to get them into soldiers etc.
Six months to use them
Six months they where no use as they prepared for civilian again

I was told this when I joined the RAF in late 1968 and I went on a three year apprenticeship as an armourer. A modern squaddie has loads to learn it's very complex these days and they are constantly under manned ( sorry personed )

We have two carriers tied up in port because we have not enough crews for them,

 aircrew not trained to operate off them, 31 F35 in service and only 30 pilots to fly them

our training is behind because its short of aircraft and training of Ukrainians

not enough ships to protect them only 3 out of six destroyers

 8 out 11 frigates and no nuclear subs as all 6 are tied up

 Add on no support ship as the only one we have is in deep repair,

Two assault ships tied up no crews.

The army has around 40 tanks operational

A new AFV years behind to replace very old AFVs that break down all the time

Most of the above is down to budget cuts and lack of planning, in fact this lot in power we,are so very weak now
They waste so much money buying kit that doesn't work or developing and buying good kit that they then scrap at huge cost. The AFV is a disaster. The carriers are nice big targets waiting for someone to blow up. The F35s are unbelievably expensive and we don't have enough of them.
There's no point having carriers if you can't protect them. We have no working supply ships, so we depend on allies to resupply them when on ops. Years of bad decisions and screw ups.  Nobody seems to be held accountable.

Russia and China are just waiting for the right moment.

NATO is weak and unresourced. 

If the armed forces were larger the staff wouldn't get worked so hard and there would be more opportunities for them to progress and they'd stay.

Offline GreyDave

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 :hi: As I understand from the America posts I see on airpower , there are several National Guard Squadrons in th USA each has more aircraft than the Royal Airforce combind.

1st WW was Mechical close range  2nd fought in Air mid range the 3rd will be Digital and long range :( :hi: :hi:

No Way will the young men Ive encounted stand for any fighting ...exept over whos srcathed there shitty BMer :unknown: :unknown: 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 04:49:44 pm by GreyDave »

Online RandomGuy99

:hi: As I understand from the America posts I see on airpower , there are several National Guard Squadrons in th USA each has more aircraft than the Royal Airforce combind.

1st WW was Mechical close range  2nd fought in Air mid range the 3rd will be Digital and long range :( :hi: :hi:

No Way will the young men Ive encounted stand for any fighting ...exept over whos srcathed there shitty BMer :unknown: :unknown:
Given the size of the US it's to be expected that their Air National Guard has more aircraft than the RAF.

I suspect the next world war will start as a digital one but the smart weapons will run out and we'll be back to traditional boots on the ground with hand to hand combat just like Ukraine.

Offline DastardlyDick


Perhaps a conscription into a Public Service Maintenance Brigade, training in aspects of buildings and set them on filling potholes, impproving schools, hospitals and other public buildings?

Sounds like the "Bevan Boys" from WW2

The problem is that it starts to sound like American Chain Gangs.
Nothing wrong with chain gangs if it deters people IMO. It does appear to need a 2 - 1 supervision ratio, from the ones I've seen in Florida, which we probably don't have the staff for

Offline GreyDave

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Given the size of the US it's to be expected that their Air National Guard has more aircraft than the RAF.

 :hi: They have a few Squardrons that each have more aircraft than the RAF  :hi:      mind you we do have a fwew more than the Irish Airforce ,,,, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: think last figure was 6 although theres a load of civil ones on lease agreements   :unknown: :unknown:

Offline RedKettle

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:hi: They have a few Squardrons that each have more aircraft than the RAF  :hi:      mind you we do have a fwew more than the Irish Airforce ,,,, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: think last figure was 6 although theres a load of civil ones on lease agreements   :unknown: :unknown:

OK so war with Ireland it is   :dance: :dance:

Offline chrishornx

With respect I'm right and you're wrong.

Don't agree RK make some good points

Offline willie loman

They are not allowed to go on strike.

Most 18 year olds earning £19k aren't asked to put their lives on the line.

By way of comparison, the starting salary in the police is £21,400.

getting into the police is way more competitive, for various reasons, increasing army pay might help,
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 07:36:37 pm by willie loman »

Offline hullad

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OK so war with Ireland it is   :dance: :dance:

Eire is not a NATO member for a start, there is an agreement the the RAF defends its airspace when requested. This agreement is in jeapody due to the certain sections in Eire being a bit upset with having the Brits continuing involvement in there country. There airforce has no aircraft capable of defending there airspace

Offline mr.bluesky

OK so war with Ireland it is   :dance: :dance:

No we should fight the Swiss,  they are only armed with a Swiss penknife and have no navy    :D
« Last Edit: January 29, 2024, 09:05:56 pm by mr.bluesky »

Online RandomGuy99

No we should fight the Swiss,  they are only armed with a Swiss penknife and have no navy    :D
Neither do we.


Offline Bonker

Is punting a reserved profession?
They also serve who...

Offline GreyDave

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OK so war with Ireland it is   :dance: :dance:

Its aready going on  ;), most european countrys vs  Cheap flight ODreay`s Air invaders transport ;)