Nurse Lucy Letby Guilty

[mh]

What would make this attractive young woman and dedicated pediatric nurse be so cruel and have to face the consequences and live with the guilt for the rest of her life.

You see, even after being found guilty of being the most prolific serial killer of babies or children the country has even seen, she's being given accommodations that would not be given to someone older, less traditionally attractive, less 'pure'. All about what she looks like...

[mh]

It seems strange to me that she's been doing this job for several years with no reported "incidents" and was even mentoring junior members of staff, then suddenly goes off the rails in 2015 which is why I think it's some sort of mental illness.

What does "no reported incidents" mean, though? The police are still examining her history before the murders and attempted murders in this job. Perhaps this was the first opportunity she had where she was not being trained or shadowed. Earlier non-lethal actions may not have been attributed to a bad actor, as these weren't initially.

Yes, she has a mental illness or perhaps an endemic psychopathy.

[Blackpool Rock]

I am sure that is right. However i think the point is to give the families of the victims a chance to see justice being done and to vent their feelings at the murderer.  If it helps them in the slightest I am all for it.

I can only speak personally however (And you never actually know how you would feel until you are in that position) I don't think that I would want to see the persons face for a second longer than I had to so would prefer if they weren't in court for sentencing si i'd not have to look at them or be in the same room as them.

The other problem here is that if the guilty person kicks off physically then police / guards have to get involved with restraint or verbally if they shout at the family members that they are glad they did what they did etc then it could make things far worse for their mental state of mind.

In terms of the families venting their feeling then a prepared impact statement is one thing but if a family member decides to shout abuse then they are risking contempt of court themselves

[Blackpool Rock]

Totally agree with that. I was looking at the photo they kept using on the news and was instinctively feeling that she could not possibly be guilty, despite my logical side knowing that of course she might be.

I think that is still why a few people are muttering about possible miscarriage of justice, they simply cannot perceive of the person that picture portrays to them being guilty.

I'm not sure if they have perhaps used more than one photo or changed it at some point, in fact yes i'd agree if we are talking about the one where she is holding what looks like a baby grow and smiling but there is another where she just looks dead behind the eyes

[myothernameis]

It was a majority verdict? I didn't know that.
It seems strange to me that she's been doing this job for several years with no reported "incidents" and was even mentoring junior members of staff, then suddenly goes off the rails in 2015 which is why I think it's some sort of mental illness. Not saying that as an excuse for her to kill, or otherwise harm, these children but it may explain her apparent lack of remorse - her brain is telling her that what she's done is normal behaviour.

When it comes down to the jury pool, wonder how many were influenced by articles in the news, even before anyone was called for jury duty.  In a criminal case like this, would there be grounds for a number of judges or even a professional jury pool, made up with nurses, doctors and clinical professions, to judge this case

I think  a jury pool of nurse and doctors would understand the case and evidence a lot more than the public.  And the prosecution would need to present stronger evidence of Lucy Lety guilt

[Blackpool Rock]

Apparently the fact that the deaths moved from night time to day time when Lucy Letby moved from night shift to day shift was viewed as significant. I'm assuming that when she went on holiday there were also no deaths.

Looking at the time line there were gaps of quite a few months between known deaths and attempts but as I say that's known attempts, how many more were there that haven't been flagged 

I did think about the defence that someone else or a group of people were trying to pin it on her but she was the only common denominator when all these things happened.
It would probably be possible to pin a few instances on someone else like I know X is working tomorrow so i'll do it then but not all of them and crucially things stopped once she was arrested, serial killers can stop for a while however they eventually return to committing more crimes as it's a mental illness they can't totally control

[Squire Haggard]

Something doesn't sit right with me about this case. I have been reading this site which questions the evidence and makes interesting reading External Link/Members Only. I am not saying I believe she is innocent, but I also don't feel, from what I read in the reporting, that the prosecution presented a strong case against her. The fact that there seems to be no apparent motive makes me uneasy about the conviction also.

She's guilty IMO. If she's not she should be launching an appeal as well as screaming about it in court. She never did the latter, and I doubt that she will succeed with an appeal, or even make one.

[RandomGuy99]

She's guilty IMO. If she's not she should be launching an appeal as well as screaming about it in court. She never did the latter, and I doubt that she will succeed with an appeal, or even make one.

She's probably going to be back in court as the prosecution will be picking up the deaths that the jury wasn't able to reach a decision on.  Those parents want to have their day in court and see the murders of their children recognised and the guilty part(s) held accountable.

[scutty brown]

She's probably going to be back in court as the prosecution will be picking up the deaths that the jury wasn't able to reach a decision on.  Those parents want to have their day in court and see the murders of their children recognised and the guilty part(s) held accountable.

I doubt that will happen. She's locked away for life, and a retrial on the outstanding charges would be against the public interest on cost grounds. No-one is going to agree to a second nine month trial

[RandomGuy99]

I doubt that will happen. She's locked away for life, and a retrial on the outstanding charges would be against the public interest on cost grounds. No-one is going to agree to a second nine month trial

Tell that to the parents of the children that died.

[Thephoenix]

You see, even after being found guilty of being the most prolific serial killer of babies or children the country has even seen, she's being given accommodations that would not be given to someone older, less traditionally attractive, less 'pure'. All about what she looks like...

I think that's called human nature.

[RedKettle]

The other problem here is that if the guilty person kicks off physically then police / guards have to get involved with restraint

You could run that argument about any law - cannot try them for murder as we might need to restrain them!

[scutty brown]

Tell that to the parents of the children that died.

They don't have any input into it.
The charges will probably just sit there "on file". Only way they'd normally get retried is if in 20 years or so someone decides to release her, and the police decide to retry her to stop the release. The charges can be used as a kind of emergency backstop to stop her getting out

[RedKettle]

It was a majority verdict? I didn't know that.

It was not a majority for some of the murder charges - it was unanimous murder conviction for children F and L.

[Blackpool Rock]

You could run that argument about any law - cannot try them for murder as we might need to restrain them!

Yes I get your point but presumably while the case is going on most people act OK as they don't want to create a scene and prejudice opinion of them which may affect the verdict
Once the verdict has been given they they don't have so much to lose and in fact nothing in the case of a whole life sentence

On a similar thing I know many people complain that life should mean life but XYZ is up for parole after about half of their minimum term, the fact that someone sentenced to 20 years can get out after 10 or 15 years is basically used as a carrot so they tow the line and don't constantly kick off while in prison.
Imagine a prison with 500 inmates who know they will end their lives inside and with no incentive not to assault the guards etc and it all kicks off on a regular basis 

[Thephoenix]

I think that's called human nature.

We all make judgements based an people's faces and appearances every day.
That doesn't mean the judgements are sound.

In this case jury members and people following the case must have thought at some stage that this 'young attractive woman' and dedicated pediatric nurse with a good social life and a good circle of friends had so much going for her with a bright future ahead.

Don't tell me jurors aren't influenced by appearances.

Others have questioned the suitability of juries in complicated and lengthy trials involving complex technical or scientific evidence.
Those of us having done jury service will relate to this.

I've been called on three occasions and one particular trial comes to mind where the prosecution evidence was mainly reliant on scores of detailed financial and commercial documents.
One bloke wanted to find the offender not guilty ASAP so he could get back to work, whilst two disinterested ladies who didn't want to be there spent most of the time chatting away.

Their only contribution in the discussions was to just say that the young guy in the dock with his smart suit and neat hairstyle 'didn't look the type'.

He was subsequently found guilty on a majority and was found to have previous convictions.

[Blackpool Rock]

We all make judgements based an people's faces and appearances every day.
That doesn't mean the judgements are sound.

In this case jury members and people following the case must have thought at some stage that this 'young attractive woman' and dedicated pediatric nurse with a good social life and a good circle of friends had so much going for her with a bright future ahead.

Don't tell me jurors aren't influenced by appearances.

Others have questioned the suitability of juries in complicated and lengthy trials involving complex technical or scientific evidence.
Those of us having done jury service will relate to this.

I've been called on three occasions and one particular trial comes to mind where the prosecution evidence was mainly reliant on scores of detailed financial and commercial documents.
One bloke wanted to find the offender not guilty ASAP so he could get back to work, whilst two disinterested ladies who didn't want to be there spent most of the time chatting away.

Their only contribution in the discussions was to just say that the young guy in the dock with his smart suit and neat hairstyle 'didn't look the type'.

He was subsequently found guilty on a majority and was found to have previous convictions.

Never done it myself but I know someone who did it and was shocked by the lack of dedication a few of the other jurors showed, as you say one person said they didn't care what the verdict was as they just wanted to get home for their tea 

I also worked with someone who was put out that the amount they were getting compensated by the court was less than they earnt so they were effectively losing money. While I can see why someone would be hacked off at losing money doing Jury service when you didn't want to in the start they took the stance that they wanted the person to be found guilty 9whether or not they actually were) as it would be some sort of retribution for them losing money 

[JontyR]

The whole thing is just completely alien and incomprehensible to me.

It's just so at odds with any sense of morality I can't help but think that she must be ill or wired differently. As such I think she should be studied throughout her incarceration just as much as punished / protected. Would she always have found a way to kill even if she wasn't a nurse? Do the normal rules of nurder investigation (method, means and opportunity) apply or is there something very different going on. Is the need to control and have power over another so overpowering that it leads to these actions? If there is something that can be learned that stops this happening again either here or somewhere else in the world then it should be done.

As for making her listen to the impacts? I can see why this is said, but I am not sure it would help those impacted if she screams, laughs or causes a physical nuisance or threat or conducts a dirty protest. The threat of a contempt of court notice isn't going to be effective when she's never allowed out is it?

Where has she been kept prior to trial?

One last thing, I know of Shipman and Allitt before. But are there cases where a nurse or doctor has been caught after one death? or two? Do these not attract the same attention? How do they seemingly get away with it for so long and to such an extent that there can be many more suspicious but unproven cases?

[RedKettle]

As for making her listen to the impacts? I can see why this is said, but I am not sure it would help those impacted if she screams, laughs or causes a physical nuisance or threat or conducts a dirty protest. The threat of a contempt of court notice isn't going to be effective when she's never allowed out is it?

We have to decide whether it is the best option for the victims to have the opportunity to see justice done and to be heard by the criminal - obviously will not be the same answer for all but you can get a view from victims.  On that basis if it is the right thing you make it the law.  We should not step back from the right thing because some bad people might behave badly.  If we run society in that way it quickly becomes a place none of us will want to live.

[RandomGuy99]

They don't have any input into it.
The charges will probably just sit there "on file". Only way they'd normally get retried is if in 20 years or so someone decides to release her, and the police decide to retry her to stop the release. The charges can be used as a kind of emergency backstop to stop her getting out

I think they do and the CPS seem to be preparing for appeals and retrials.

Those parents want justice. They won't settle until they have it.

[PumpDump]

On the topic of victim impact statements, wouldn't some sick fucks actually get off on hearing the pain and hurt they caused the families. I am not sure they are a good idea.

[JontyR]

We have to decide whether it is the best option for the victims to have the opportunity to see justice done and to be heard by the criminal - obviously will not be the same answer for all but you can get a view from victims.  On that basis if it is the right thing you make it the law.  We should not step back from the right thing because some bad people might behave badly.  If we run society in that way it quickly becomes a place none of us will want to live.

Totally get you. I'm just thinking that if there is a chance of it causing even more pain then I'm not sure of the benefit.

[DastardlyDick]

Those parents want justice. They won't settle until they have it.

I get that the parents want to put their grief and sorrow 'out there' via the Courts, it may even help give them 'Closure' as I believe it's called these days.
But, practically, and leaving emotion aside, what would be the point of another trial? Letby has, quite rigjtly, been given a whole life sentance, what are you going to do when/if she's found guilty of more Offences and sentenced to another xxx years? Keep the body in a special secure morgue? Cremate her and keep the ashes in a Home Office safe somewhere?I
There's also the question of why CPS didn't just add these cases to the charge sheet?
No, Letby has received her just deserts, another trial would be putting a lot of innocent people through even more anguish and trauma than is good for them.

[DastardlyDick]

What does "no reported incidents" mean, though?
Exactly what it says, (afaik) there were no reports of misdeeds until 2015/16.
Obviously, there's still a lot of stuff to come out about this tragic affair, but if credible evidence comes out that other things were reported and hushed up by Hospital Management, then I will be happy to say I was wrong.

[daviemac]

There's also the question of why CPS didn't just add these cases to the charge sheet?

They did, any retrial would be for the charges she faced that the jury couldn't reach a verdict on. 6 counts of attempted murder I believe.

Why shouldn't she be convicted of all the offences she's guilty of, the sentence she's serving is irrelevant as any further sentence would run concurrently.

[Jonestown]

I get that the parents want to put their grief and sorrow 'out there' via the Courts, it may even help give them 'Closure' as I believe it's called these days.

I find it hard to believe if you have a child murdered you ever achieve "closure", the fallout is going to be with you till the end of your life, reading out an impact statement to the perpetrator face to face might bring temporary relief, but I'd imagine it would be short lived.

[RedKettle]

Totally get you. I'm just thinking that if there is a chance of it causing even more pain then I'm not sure of the benefit.

It should be the victim’s choice, they do not have to go. It should not be the criminal’s choice.

[RandomGuy99]

I find it hard to believe if you have a child murdered you ever achieve "closure", the fallout is going to be with you till the end of your life, reading out an impact statement to the perpetrator face to face might bring temporary relief, but I'd imagine it would be short lived.

You never will but you would probably like someone to be held accountable rather than your child just to have died and might have been murdered but nobody was really sure. Those parents deserve their day in court.

[Jonestown]

You never will but you would probably like someone to be held accountable rather than your child just to have died and might have been murdered but nobody was really sure. Those parents deserve their day in court.

If you are talking about the parents of the children whose cases the jury could not reach a verdict on, then I would assume they would not be eligible to present an impact statement in regard to the current trial. They would have to await a decision on whether CPS has enough evidence to re-try to get their day in court.

[puntingking]

If you are talking about the parents of the children whose cases the jury could not reach a verdict on, then I would assume they would not be eligible to present an impact statement in regard to the current trial. They would have to await a decision on whether CPS has enough evidence to re-try to get their day in court.

What would be the point of re trying her for others that she may have killed? She is not going to see the light of day again so they can't add any extension to her sentence 

All that they will be punishing is the court system by clogging it up unnecessary.   

[puntingking]

You never will but you would probably like someone to be held accountable rather than your child just to have died and might have been murdered but nobody was really sure. Those parents deserve their day in court.

Those parents deserve their babies to be alive with them and not having a monster  like Lucy kill them

By having another go at court to re try her for other victims is unnecessary as there is nothing that they can do to punish lucy letby further.

It must be really hard for parents. I can't imagine how hard it must be.

On the other hand by retrialing her for more deaths it could bring closure to some parents.

But the court is not for anything else but to punish criminals.  You can't punish lucy letby any further as she got a whole life order.

[DastardlyDick]

the sentence she's serving is irrelevant as any further sentence would run concurrently.

Exactly my point! Why go to the time and expense of going through the same (or similar) process - let's face it, it's virtually a certainty the verdict will be "guilty", so it would be a bit of a "show trial".
Do we know if the relatives of those who's murders the jury couldn't find her guilty of actually want another trial?
They should have a say in the matter.

[RandomGuy99]

Exactly my point! Why go to the time and expense of going through the same (or similar) process - let's face it, it's virtually a certainty the verdict will be "guilty", so it would be a bit of a "show trial".
Do we know if the relatives of those who's murders the jury couldn't find her guilty of actually want another trial?
They should have a say in the matter.

If you had a relative murdered would you want the person that did it found guilty of their murder?

Or would you be happy accepting that maybe your relative was murdered and the person that did it got away with the crime?

I think I'd want them put back through the court process and found guilty.

[myothernameis]

Do we know if the relatives of those who's murders the jury couldn't find her guilty of actually want another trial?

Maybe not another trial, but in coming years, see if Lucy Letby will open up, once it sinks in, she in for life, and then explain her actions, and guilt

[RandomGuy99]

Maybe not another trial, but in coming years, see if Lucy Letby will open up, once it sinks in, she in for life, and then explain her actions, and guilt

I can't see her doing well in prison. She was already tearing herself apart with note writing about her actions. She'll fade away or commit suicide. I think she might be dead within 3 years. She seems to be quite introverted really.

[shed]

External Link/Members Only

Interesting. Seems there are many psychopaths within our society than we may think. Some who have yet not committed a crime but will do at some point. Frightening really.

[daviemac]

Exactly my point! Why go to the time and expense of going through the same (or similar) process - let's face it, it's virtually a certainty the verdict will be "guilty", so it would be a bit of a "show trial".
Do we know if the relatives of those who's murders the jury couldn't find her guilty of actually want another trial?
They should have a say in the matter.

FFS if you are going to discuss a topic at least get the facts right.

She was found guilty on all of the 7 counts of murder she was charged with, she was also found guilty of 7 counts of attempted murder, the jury could not reach a verdict of the remaining 6 counts of attempted murder, with I believe 1 charge dropped so a not guilty verdict recorded.

Any retrial would be for attempted murder not murder. Regardless of that the jury didn't find her innocent they just couldn't agree on her guilt so I think she should face a retrial to determine her guilt or innocence.

[DastardlyDick]

would you be happy accepting that maybe your relative was murdered and the person that did it got away with the crime?

I think I'd want them put back through the court process and found guilty.

But Letby has been found guilty and received a whole life term, ok, not of every murder, or attempted murder she may have committed, but she won't be seeing the outside of a Prison ever again, so that's hardly "getting away with it".
As I said before, the relatives of those who's murders or attempted murders did not get a guilty verdict, for whatever reason, should undoubtedly be consulted as to what they want to happen.
Unless the Government change the Law, as has been suggested, so that Offenders have to appear in Court and not just sit in the cells next door as Letby has done, they won't (IMO) get  the satisfaction the want and deserve.
Letby clearly has a serious mental illness - I doubt she'll ever see that what she did was wrong - so there'll be no remorse from her that survivors or relatives can draw any comfort from.

[DastardlyDick]

FFS if you are going to discuss a topic at least get the facts right.

She was found guilty on all of the 7 counts of murder she was charged with, she was also found guilty of 7 counts of attempted murder, the jury could not reach a verdict of the remaining 6 counts of attempted murder, with I believe 1 charge dropped so a not guilty verdict recorded.

Any retrial would be for attempted murder not murder. Regardless of that the jury didn't find her innocent they just couldn't agree on her guilt so I think she should face a retrial to determine her guilt or innocence.

OK, my apologies, attempted murder . I didn't say the Jury found her innocent at any point.
The relatives and survivors of her attempted murders should be consulted as to whether or not they want a retrial they're the ones who are going to face another long period of time reliving their nightmares, not any of us or some woke member of staff at CPS HQ.

[daviemac]

I didn't say the Jury found her innocent at any point.

I know you didn't   

I said the jury didn't find her innocent on those 6 charges they just couldn't agree, so therefore there is a doubt about her innocence or guilt and a retrial on those 6 charges of attempted murder should or could give a definitive answer.

[Jonestown]

I'd imagine the remaining attempted murder charges that the jury could not reach a verdict on would now be left on the books with a note that the police are not looking for other suspects, rather than bringing them back to court for re-trial. I doubt the families will have a say in the matter.

[alabama1]

At least 1 and possibly 2 of the jury members found her not guilty.
I followed the trial more than most as it was reported in detail in the local press.

All I can say is  I feel intensely sorry for everyone involved in this sad case.
The babies, the parents, the doctors and hospital staff, Letby's parents and friends and maybe surprisingly to some, Lucy Letby herself.

What would make this attractive young woman and dedicated pediatric nurse be so cruel and have to face the consequences and live with the guilt for the rest of her life.

Dedicated to what, apart from murdering babies !

[Thephoenix]

Dedicated to what, apart from murdering babies !

She started her training in 2008, qualified in 2011, and started working in the hospital in January 2012.
The increase in baby deaths started in 2015.
At this time there's no indication that she was anything other than a dedicated pediatric nurse up until then.

However enquiries are now ongoing.

[alabama1]

Are you fucking serious 

You beat me to it. What a prick 

[Blackpool Rock]

If you had a relative murdered would you want the person that did it found guilty of their murder?

Or would you be happy accepting that maybe your relative was murdered and the person that did it got away with the crime?

I think I'd want them put back through the court process and found guilty.

Big difference though is that's she's locked up for life so hasn't got away with anything, if she was walking free having been found not guilty of anything then yes but it's as broad as it's long so personally i'd probably be trying to rebuild and get on with my life rather than having the stress of going back through the courts again.
And how many more years will the families have to put their lives on hold with the trial hanging over them 

As posted above she was found guilty of all murders so it's just the attempted murders in question though I believe some of the children do have permanent long term issues as a result so I can see why they may want another case but if the child has no lasting effects then better to drop it IMO

[catweazle]

I can't see her doing well in prison. She was already tearing herself apart with note writing about her actions. She'll fade away or commit suicide. I think she might be dead within 3 years. She seems to be quite introverted really.

I agree with this. There's a true psychopath in Wakefield jail ( "hannibal the cannibal,") who's done 50 years inside.  Given her age, Letby could surpass that, but she'll either be murdered  or commit suicide once she learns what her segregated life is like in a Cat A jail.

[RedKettle]

I agree with this. There's a true psychopath in Wakefield jail ( "hannibal the cannibal,") who's done 50 years inside.  Given her age, Letby could surpass that, but she'll either be murdered  or commit suicide once she learns what her segregated life is like in a Cat A jail.

I do not agree with the death penalty but ironically here it might actually be more humane than what she faces! (Don’t get me wrong I believe she deserves it!)

[RandomGuy99]

I agree with this. There's a true psychopath in Wakefield jail ( "hannibal the cannibal,") who's done 50 years inside.  Given her age, Letby could surpass that, but she'll either be murdered  or commit suicide once she learns what her segregated life is like in a Cat A jail.

I think she'll just stop eating, become disengaged from life and slowly fade away. She has never really reacted strongly to any of this and when she was arrested she was very quiet. She obviously had been expecting that one day it would happen, so it was no surprise when it  eventually did.  She really needs a mental hospital not a prison.

[PumpDump]

Hey group of friends are sticking by her: External Link/Members Only

[RandomGuy99]

Hey group of friends are sticking by her: External Link/Members Only

I don't see the point of articles like that. Clearly she was fine at one point and then something changed. People are changed by their experiences.

There's no point going on about her parents, friends, upbringing, etc.  Let her, her family and friends be.