Grand National

[puntingking]

Not really, nobody in the UK watching the Grand National eats Horse meat, its a pity the Horse died, but that was the first bad day this particular Horse ever had, and its death in the end was quick, Horses in the wild have it far worse

No I did not mention anyone eating horse meat. I said the group are vegans which means they also care about pigs, Chicken, etc wellbeing.

[maxQ]

No I did not mention anyone eating horse meat. I said the group are vegans which means they also care about pigs, Chicken, etc wellbeing.

But not about other people

There no shortage of injustice in the World, the Grand National or Horse racing is not on the list, Muppets

[akauya]

It is sad. I'm a bit of a neutral on this, but reading the replies to the tweet you have linked to, the protesters seem to have somewhat shot themselves in the foot PR wise?

Whilst there no denying that some protests can backfire (I mean in the UK, in general, all protests draw negative media attention) I think this time they succeed in gaining attention to the plight of animals. There will always be very vociferous counter-protestors (usually louder than the protestors themselves.) Also I'm beginning to think that there is some truth to the old adage of no publicity is bad publicity.

Personally, I have never been interested in horse racing at all. the Grand national, etc. were always at the periphery of my attention in life but this protests made me pay attention and now I can actually fully sympathise with their concerns for animal welfare. It's horrific that humans put animals through all that for 'our' entertainment.

[maxQ]

I said the group are vegans which means they also care about pigs, Chicken, etc wellbeing.

How can you tell if someone is a vegan ?

Don't worry, they'll tell you

[webpunter]

This happened yesterday

External Link/Members Only

Very sad.

Very
At least it looked to be swift, the horse didn't appear to be moving

What the activists can do is congratulate themselves on is the death of this horse
You dont enter a horse into this race if it cant jump
Had the race not been delayed it is the case that the horse & rider would have started the race in a different place in the field / on the track
Nothing is guaranteed however the horse & rider would haven been jumping from a different launch point with different horses around them
There are statistics showing horse deaths per race over jumps & on the flat
Over the jumps is riskier than the flat & the grand national is one of the riskiest
Per race their is some risk tho per fence the statistics of a fatality will be low [not low enuf obvs], whether acceptable is not the focus of my post

With no delay to the race start there most likely there would have been almost certainly a different outcome
It could have been that in the race a different horse or more than one horse died with possible death or injury to a jockey
However it is highly likely that other than for the activists Hill Sixteen today would have been eating grass & having a shit
Clearly not intentional on the part of the activists however whichever way you look at what unfolded they unfortunately did [as it turns out catastrophically] influence the outcome

You could view the above as hypothetical however 'event risk' inextricably points to the same conclusion
Wonder how the activists would respond to this ?

[mr.bluesky]

How can you tell if someone is a vegan ?

Don't worry, they'll tell you

I have no problem with people being vegans or vegetarian it's their freedom to choose, what I do have a problem is when they try and force their views on to other people.  It's a bit like these climate extinction activists glueing themselves to roads and stopping other people getting on with their lives and in some cases they were not allowing emergency vehicles to pass through their blockades. As regards the Grand National I  have no interest in horse racing whether it is flat racing or over the sticks and horse fatalities at this race is unfortunately a too often occurance but as I said in an earlier posting the height of the fences have been reduced over the years to try and cut this down. Too much money is invested in this event so it will never be stopped.
Do we want to stop these people from having their say ? No of course not, we still  have the freedom to do this, its just the way they go about it. for me there are far more important things to worry about. If they feel the need to demonstrate about something try demonstrating outside no 10 Downing street about the state of the NHS where doctors or nurses feel the need to go on strike to get paid what they deserve,  or demonstrate against the fact that old people struggle to pay their heating bills due to the excessive greed of power companies and energy providers

[limarasa9]

And yet you are being sarcastic when 3 horses has died. Bad taste isn't?

Maybe there should be a new sport called "people racing" where those who are pro horse racing should be put in a race and jump over big fences that if they don't make the jump they could die 

You still don’t get it. I am against killing of all animals but that’s my personal view and I am not imposing it on others. What I have been trying to highlight on this thread is people’s selective outrage. Either you object to the killing of all animals or you don’t. Why the crocodile tears only for horses when you have no remorse for other animals being killed to fulfill your protein requirement? 

Your example of people racing is in such poor taste. Do we then say to send people who eat meat to to the butchers and see how they feel their head being cut off? Pathetic.

[tintin100]

Is that even a word ?

There is nothing wrong with racing horses, the twats trying to stop the Grand National have nothing better to do, so they latch on to this non issue, they need to give their sad lives some deeper meaning, pathetic really

The same pathetic bunch was trying to get fishing banned a few years back.

[JontyR]

It was interesting hearing the racing fraternity giving their side on the radio yesterday. They were focussed very much on the welfare of horses in stables. And you can probably be well assured that these animals are much better cared for than many of their non-thoroughbred brethren.

What strikes me though, is that if you were designing the Grand National from scratch today you wouldn't be building these fences in the way that they are. Blind ditches, blind verticles (shudder)

Sad fact is that the race has such national appeal because seeing horse fall is spectacular. Seeing one horse cutting across lots of others the same. Before we were aware of the risks or they weren't publicised you didn't care. You didn't mind there were so many horses in the race which made it more likely.

Take away the mawkish sentimentality and the ghoulish gawping and you aren't left with many good reasons for horses to take on the kind of artificial challenges we are setting. Its risky enough expecting a horse to take on Becher's Brook the first time, but to expect them to do it again on the second circuit of a two mile long track is difficult to comprehend to anyone who isn't aware of the race.

Horse racing, yeah. Fences, alright. These "traditional" fences? I need convincing on that. 

[puntingking]

You still don’t get it. I am against killing of all animals but that’s my personal view and I am not imposing it on others. What I have been trying to highlight on this thread is people’s selective outrage. Either you object to the killing of all animals or you don’t. Why the crocodile tears only for horses when you have no remorse for other animals being killed to fulfill your protein requirement? 

Your example of people racing is in such poor taste. Do we then say to send people who eat meat to to the butchers and see how they feel their head being cut off? Pathetic.

I object all killing of all animals but if I choose to become vegan they would still kill the animals and the meat that I would've ate would go to someone else.

Also some people would say that we are top of the food chain. Birds eat worms, spiders eat flies & humans eat animal meat.

It is a big difference from a animal being killed for entertainment and animals being kills for human survival. 


I

[puntingking]

I have no problem with people being vegans or vegetarian it's their freedom to choose, what I do have a problem is when they try and force their views on to other people.  It's a bit like these climate extinction activists glueing themselves to roads and stopping other people getting on with their lives and in some cases they were not allowing emergency vehicles to pass through their blockades. As regards the Grand National I  have no interest in horse racing whether it is flat racing or over the sticks and horse fatalities at this race is unfortunately a too often occurance but as I said in an earlier posting the height of the fences have been reduced over the years to try and cut this down. Too much money is invested in this event so it will never be stopped.
Do we want to stop these people from having their say ? No of course not, we still  have the freedom to do this, its just the way they go about it. for me there are far more important things to worry about. If they feel the need to demonstrate about something try demonstrating outside no 10 Downing street about the state of the NHS where doctors or nurses feel the need to go on strike to get paid what they deserve,  or demonstrate against the fact that old people struggle to pay their heating bills due to the excessive greed of power companies and energy providers

We are all talking about horses and whether we think the sport should be stopped or not which means they are achieving with doing things their way. I don't believe a horse died due to the protesters making their way on the field. Protesters are not at every horse racing event and yet over 50 horses at the very least died on the field or died later due to the injuries that occurred.  I do agree with you on the point that I don't think horse racing will be banned. Smoking is not banned even though there is no health benefits to smoking but only negative effects but they would've banned smoking years ago if they didn't collect enough tax
 Money does dictate things a hell of alot.

[David1970]

The gambling industry is one of the biggest and influential in this country, bribing MPs, getting the media on there side with a large advertising budget. Some people wonder why the cruelty to horses at racing is now being defected to blame those who are trying to stop the cruelty. The betting industry is the reason that the horse are abused and killed in racing, not those trying to stop it.

[webpunter]

I must have had my crystal ball out with reply #54

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"The Scottish handler described the horse as "hyper" due to the protests, and blamed the activists for why it fell for the first time in his career.
"He just hasn't taken off at the first fence; he's got so bloody hyper because of the carry on," he told the Racing Post.
He said he tried to calm the horse by washing him off but to no avail"

Animal rising commented:  "We'd welcome dialogue with Sandy Thomson or Jimmy Fyffe about how to move forwards together"

Moving forward together means they know they've fucked up & are trying to put a +ve spin on things
'Together' are they having a giraffe ?
Next thing they'll be 'reaching out' 

If i was the trainer i would have some dialogue
Through lawyers & in court suing them
Race horse owners generally have a bob or two
If it was me i would bury them, also going after the key individuals personally
Far from certain of the outcome however dragging them into Court should make them think & stack em up with legal bills which they may not be able to afford

[puntingking]

I must have had my crystal ball out with reply #54

External Link/Members Only

"The Scottish handler described the horse as "hyper" due to the protests, and blamed the activists for why it fell for the first time in his career.
"He just hasn't taken off at the first fence; he's got so bloody hyper because of the carry on," he told the Racing Post.
He said he tried to calm the horse by washing him off but to no avail"

Animal rising commented:  "We'd welcome dialogue with Sandy Thomson or Jimmy Fyffe about how to move forwards together"

Moving forward together means they know they've fucked up & are trying to put a +ve spin on things
'Together' are they having a giraffe ?
Next thing they'll be 'reaching out' 

If i was the trainer i would have some dialogue
Through lawyers & in court suing them
Race horse owners generally have a bob or two
If it was me i would bury them, also going after the key individuals personally
Far from certain of the outcome however dragging them into Court should make them think & stack em up with legal bills which they may not be able to afford

it easier to blame someone else than take personal blame. The horse died after jumping a fence which means that the fence was to blame which also means the jockey and the trainer was to blame.

this is what it would be like:

"i left my animal in a car on a hot day, It wasnt my fault the animal died it was the weather to blame" 

edited - I removed 2 examples as i think the above one is more of a better representation in what the person said in relation to his horse.

[chrishornx]

it easier to blame someone else than take personal blame. The horse died after jumping a fence which means that the fence was to blame which also means the jockey and the trainer was to blame.

this is what it would be like:

"i left my animal in a car on a hot day, It wasnt my fault the animal died it was the weather to blame" 

edited - I removed 2 examples as i think the above one is more of a better representation in what the person said in relation to his horse.

I am not sure why the fence being to blame means that the jockey and trainer are also to blame, that seems a very tenuous point.

and as for the dog and car analogy it is a bit slanted - if you leave the dog in car all day in high heat and then it doesn't want to go running about because it is knackered that would be  fairer analogy. Th ejoscket claimed the horse was hyper due to the protests which contributed to a poor jump, is that not plausible?

[StingRay]

I'm sure that sir keir will be blaming this on the government - why not, he does with everything else!

[tintin100]

I object all killing of all animals but if I choose to become vegan they would still kill the animals and the meat that I would've ate would go to someone else.

Also some people would say that we are top of the food chain. Birds eat worms, spiders eat flies & humans eat animal meat.

It is a big difference from a animal being killed for entertainment and animals being kills for human survival. 


Pretty sure Vegans survive without meat.
I

[daviemac]

I'm sure that sir keir will be blaming this on the government - why not, he does with everything else!

Political posts anywhere other than the dedicated politics thread can lead to a ban.

[timsussex]

I must admit my surprise that the trainer blamed the protesters delaying the start
I'd place a hefty bet that when delays or false starts have occurred for other reason that the trainer hasn't blamed the horse death on those delays and to what does he blame the other 88 deaths in the Grand national or the other 199 horse deaths each year in racing ?

On the other hand the protesters are mainly targeting the Grand National for publicity. One of the horses that died at Aintree this year was on the Hurdle course where fences are a lot lower and often just kicked down by the horses

[billybob69]

Horses actually love running. They don't like jumping over the fences.  I saw the grand national and I could not believe my eyes. 2 of the horses when the jockey fell of they carried on running but went around the fence and not over the fence. (Which was a real eye opener for me)

It is debatable whether they love running.
They are flight animals, they are running because their natural instinct is to run away from perceived danger. As herd animals they continue to run because they are either following the herd or as a herd animal they want to be the leader of the herd or remain leader of the herd. Coming around for a second lap and seeing one of their own fallen further increases their fear that there is a threat around and therefore their instinct is to again run away from it. As they are breed to run fast, there is the possibility that the danger is bred to be something more to enjoyment.
There is a possibility that they like racing as it is the equivalent of them competiting to who becomes the leader of the herd.

But regardless of their enjoyment levels of running and racing they wouldn't enjoy having something on their backs nor running to near exhaustion.

[Malvolio]

But regardless of their enjoyment levels of running and racing they wouldn't enjoy having something on their backs nor running to near exhaustion.

You might say the same thing about people, but some clearly do.

[billybob69]

You might say the same thing about people, but some clearly do.

A poor comparison.

Despite race horses being selectively breeding for generations they still need to be broken-in (either psychologically or physically) in order to accept a saddle or a rider. It is hard to breed out thousands of years of basis instinct that tells them that something on their back is a predator.
Horses in the wild stop running long before they get to the point of exhaustion. Before they get to exhaustion, they get to a point which is known as 'join-up' and naturally stop running. It is the point where their head goes down and they concede to defeat.