Author Topic: Prices, and things to buy now?  (Read 4907 times)

Offline Marmalade

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Looking at the steep price increase in many things, supermarket and elsewhere, I find I have started thinking, what things should be bought now, whether singularly or in quantity. There’s a report for instance that paper will increase in price. I only buy a pack of A4 occasionally; and with books, for me it only comes down to price if the difference is major.

What things should we buy now rather than later? Small supermarket stuff to buy a quantity and things like electronic and computer -type stuff where a big increase could affect buying decisions maybe?

We have two or three people on the forum who seem to be well wired on finances and markets. Do they have any good bets? What things are likely to increase further and substantially?

Offline Watfordpunter97


Offline Moby Dick

You should stock up the following bunker essentials:

Matches
Candles (& fork handles)
Logs
Cling film
Tin foil
Toilet Roll.
Soap / toothpaste / toiletries
Bleach.
Tinned Spam (and any other non perishable / tinned food)
Alcohol

I think there will be a shortage of electric blankets and board games this winter.




Offline Markus


I work in the logistics game, someone sent me an email asking if they could source hot water bottles. I imagine that will be a hot seller (excuse the pun) this winter.

A few people I overheard yesterday were complaining that the price of logs have gone up unsurprisingly. There does seem to be very weird shortages these days.  I was in Toolstation and I overheard the sales lady saying that they have been unable to source carbon monoxide alarms for months due to shortages in the supply chain.  This could just be a Toolstation issue however.

Offline myothernameis

Before buy items in bulk, check and see what the use by date is, other wise, it might end up a pointless purchase

Offline Squire Haggard

I was just about to suggest keeping the tank topped up, when I saw this just now. If you're not on Twatter, WTI has jumped a little to above $92.

If you're cold and in the dark during any blackouts, you can always go for a drive or sit in the car with the engine idling. :)

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PS The more expensive Brent Crude is up 3.5% on the day and is currently above $97. Below is an article from 4hrs ago.  :(

''The White House isn’t very happy with OPEC’s decision to slash oil production by 2 million barrels per day. Consumers won’t be big fans either, as the move will likely send gas prices higher.

But there’s one big winner coming out of the ordeal: Oil stocks.

What’s happening: The cartel of major oil producers and its allies, led by Saudi Arabia and Russia, announced on Wednesday its biggest production cut since the start of the pandemic. The reduction, equivalent to about 2% of global oil demand, won’t begin until November, but prices received an immediate boost.

Oil prices rose to three-week highs after the announcement. Brent crude, the international benchmark, was hovering just below $95 per barrel on Friday morning, up about 6% since Monday.''

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 04:56:59 pm by Squire Haggard »

Offline Pillowtalk

What things should we buy now rather than later?

How about buying a dozen woodturners? you can keep one for yourself and sell the others at an inflated price when the weather turns and heating bills start arriving.

Offline willie loman

i cannot overstate how unconcerned  i am about this latest crisis, if anyone has any tips about what shares to buy to profit from this latest bout of national hysteria, feel free to share.

Offline Squire Haggard

i cannot overstate how unconcerned  i am about this latest crisis, if anyone has any tips about what shares to buy to profit from this latest bout of national hysteria, feel free to share.

This might be worth buying one day. Its below its pandemic low and took quite a jump of 15.4% today. I dont own any. I wont rush in, as the cost of living thingy might go on for a while.

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A better chart here
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Barratt and Persimmon have also been hammered, but I wont rush in, and might never buy them.  :)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 09:38:49 pm by Squire Haggard »

Offline willie loman

This might be worth buying one day. Its below its pandemic low and took quite a jump of 15.4% today. I dont own any. I wont rush in, as the cost of living thingy might go on for a while.

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A better chart here
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Barratt and Persimmon have also been hammered, but I wont rush in, and might never buy them.  :)

thanks, buy when others are afraid, as the great man says.

Offline Marmalade

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I’ll have a look at the shared options though I’m not that bothered. For me I suppose it’s mostly about good housekeeping. I don’t see any point in paying double in a few weeks if they can be bought now at today’s prices and are reasonably future proof. The other thing that concerns me, which is in a similar category, is things that are going to be downright unavailable. Some luxury items from Tescos have simply kept the same price or gone up, but others have simply disappeared. Nothing worth getting obsessive over but I do prefer quality Italian items for instance rather than the Polish stuff which seems to grab more and more shelf space. On the other hand, most Tesco ‘value’ items, like their perfectly drinkable bottled water, much nicer than tap water, has simply disappeared.

Offline willie loman

I’ll have a look at the shared options though I’m not that bothered. For me I suppose it’s mostly about good housekeeping. I don’t see any point in paying double in a few weeks if they can be bought now at today’s prices and are reasonably future proof. The other thing that concerns me, which is in a similar category, is things that are going to be downright unavailable. Some luxury items from Tescos have simply kept the same price or gone up, but others have simply disappeared. Nothing worth getting obsessive over but I do prefer quality Italian items for instance rather than the Polish stuff which seems to grab more and more shelf space. On the other hand, most Tesco ‘value’ items, like their perfectly drinkable bottled water, much nicer than tap water, has simply disappeared.

food has been ridiculously cheap for the last 20 years, and there is way too much choice in the supermarkets, granted we all want to save cash.

Offline Spacecowb0y

Blankets for sitting without the heating on so high
Candles for predicted black outs
Tinned food
Cuppa soup
Chess board

Offline myothernameis

Everyone talking about things to buy, if were in a situation of power cuts.   If the shops have no power, or maybe they have there own generators, there one issue that might arise.


Trying to pay with your card or phone, if no power, thinks it very likely the banking service might be down, so cash will be king, for purchases

Offline Marmalade

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Blankets for sitting without the heating on so high
Candles for predicted black outs
Tinned food
Cuppa soup
Chess board

I think all these are sensible enough. I also use rechargeable lamps which can at least be recharged when necessary outside of any blackout periods. Though I have a chess board it's a long time since I've played. Cuppa soup needs hot water of course though takes up less space than tins. Hopefully we might not get blackout periods (If we do they are predicted to be for a few hours during the night.)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2022, 01:37:21 am by Marmalade »

Offline superchamp

Rechargable loudspeaker - no need to sit in silence when I can still listen to some music.
Telescope - the stars are going to look amazing with no streetlighting to interfere.
Thermos flask - for the cuppa soup.


Offline estats

On a wider macro basis, gold and silver as currency devalues or we face a further banking crisis.

If you are asking about spot prices of commodities in general, I believe most commodities will be bearish over 12-24 months as we see demand destruction in the economy, note this doesn't have to mean prices fall on the retail side, look at oil prices and how supermarkets were not adequately passing through the reduction in petrol price. But when OPEC announce a cut of oil supplies to stabalise price, this is clearly a bearish indication over the medium term. Every commodity has it's own dynamics, such as coffee being much more driven by supply side factors, so I cannot go through them all unless someone asks specifics and then you have to consider every commodity will be a traders specialism in itself.

On a general, every day goods basis, the UK PPI remains elevated (although slightly down in september), so my expectation is CPI remains elevated. i.e. shop goods will increase in price from here as a general trend, especially essential goods and we have not seen the peak in prices in the UK, yet. So, if something has a long shelf life, stocking up I wouldn't see as a bad thing, although people would have been much smarter to do this 6 months ago.

You would have to weigh this up to your general circumstances. e.g. at the moment food inflation, for example, is around 3 times the rate at which you can earn interest on your money in the bank, so an obvious better use of money to buy goods, but we will reach an inflection point where inflation and interest rates cross over and the reverse will be true, just one example of apply your own circumstances.

Similarly, the best advice, to me, at the moment would seem to be pay down debt, if you have it fixed, it's obvious anyone having to refinance debt in the next year and more will face massive increases in cost, this has actually been evident for almost a year, and I still remain shocked at how many people haven't taken action to reduce, fix or hedge their debt costs. By the way I'm not talking just individuals here, some investment banks are much the same  :lol:

Offline sir wanksalot

On a wider macro basis, gold and silver as currency devalues or we face a further banking crisis.

If you are asking about spot prices of commodities in general, I believe most commodities will be bearish over 12-24 months as we see demand destruction in the economy, note this doesn't have to mean prices fall on the retail side, look at oil prices and how supermarkets were not adequately passing through the reduction in petrol price. But when OPEC announce a cut of oil supplies to stabalise price, this is clearly a bearish indication over the medium term. Every commodity has it's own dynamics, such as coffee being much more driven by supply side factors, so I cannot go through them all unless someone asks specifics and then you have to consider every commodity will be a traders specialism in itself.

On a general, every day goods basis, the UK PPI remains elevated (although slightly down in september), so my expectation is CPI remains elevated. i.e. shop goods will increase in price from here as a general trend, especially essential goods and we have not seen the peak in prices in the UK, yet. So, if something has a long shelf life, stocking up I wouldn't see as a bad thing, although people would have been much smarter to do this 6 months ago.

You would have to weigh this up to your general circumstances. e.g. at the moment food inflation, for example, is around 3 times the rate at which you can earn interest on your money in the bank, so an obvious better use of money to buy goods, but we will reach an inflection point where inflation and interest rates cross over and the reverse will be true, just one example of apply your own circumstances.

Similarly, the best advice, to me, at the moment would seem to be pay down debt, if you have it fixed, it's obvious anyone having to refinance debt in the next year and more will face massive increases in cost, this has actually been evident for almost a year, and I still remain shocked at how many people haven't taken action to reduce, fix or hedge their debt costs. By the way I'm not talking just individuals here, some investment banks are much the same  :lol:

Any guesses as to how high interest rates can go?

I really feel like the UK is under an anxiety cloud. If it's not one thing it's another.

Offline catweazle

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Doing my weekly main shop  I've been adding an few extra items here and there ( used to buy 3 tins of soup, now buy 4 etc).

If any foodstuffs are on special offer, I'll buy them. Only adds a,few £ to the bill , and the cupboard is full so tins are going in the garage.

Online tintin100

Any guesses as to how high interest rates can go?

I really feel like the UK is under an anxiety cloud. If it's not one thing it's another.
4-5% base rate is possible and mortgage rates from 6-9% depending on LTV.

Offline Gordon Bennett

i cannot overstate how unconcerned  i am about this latest crisis, if anyone has any tips about what shares to buy to profit from this latest bout of national hysteria, feel free to share.

Despite the hysteria, I don't think the comparative drop in FTSE is massive enough to warrant "piling in" to shares. Because so many people have "tracker funds" that mimic the market, when there's a sell-off nowadays,virtually all shares fall proprtionately - it's not like you can spot just one share that has fallen a long way.

Anyway. Someone mentioned house builders? I prefer to invest in Ibstock PLC - they make bricks you see. They're quite low at the moment but then again, given it could take years for housing sector to start booming you could be sat on a dud for a long time.

My intention at this time is to top up some of my big boring shares that pay dividends but are never gonna rocket in value...Shell, Unilever etc and also top-up some of my funds/units.

Offline jackdaw

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Any guesses as to how high interest rates can go?

I really feel like the UK is under an anxiety cloud. If it's not one thing it's another.

At times, almost as if some believe it’s only country in world where anything goes wrong.

Anything else goes wrong elsewhere…apparently it’s down to Brit influence 150 years ago.
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Offline NelsonH

For a while in the 1970's I paid my mortage interest at 17%.  It was around 12% for a long time. When it reached 8% we were in clover.  I had loads of money kept the payments the same, paid it down and got rid in 1999.


Offline Squire Haggard

Anyway. Someone mentioned house builders? I prefer to invest in Ibstock PLC - they make bricks you see. They're quite low at the moment but then again, given it could take years for housing sector to start booming you could be sat on a dud for a long time..

I'm guilty of suggesting house builders. :( I was thinking afterwards that they could take a long time to recover, so I agree about that.

IHG and Whitbread have not been impacted so much and could be quicker to recover than house builders.

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Whitbread had a rights issue during the pandemic lows. More shares means that its pre pandemic price is a long way off, making the chart misleading looking.
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Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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For a while in the 1970's I paid my mortage interest at 17%.  It was around 12% for a long time. When it reached 8% we were in clover.  I had loads of money kept the payments the same, paid it down and got rid in 1999.

The good old days eh?, Yoof of today have had it so well!

Or have they?.

That first house in Cambridge (1977) was £10k I managed to afford that back then..

Same house is s now £600K!, bloody well couldnt afford that now!.


 

Offline lillythesavage

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The good old days eh?, Yoof of today have had it so well!

Or have they?.

That first house in Cambridge (1977) was £10k I managed to afford that back then..

Same house is s now £600K!, bloody well couldnt afford that now!.

Back in the early 80,s, before credit checking etc, I bought my first house in Kent, seemed like a good idea at the time, but working in London I hated it, so did my young wife.

So I bought another in London, once that was settled, packed up, put the keys through the letterbox of the agent that sold it and arranged the mortgage and that was that, never heard another thing about it.

Less than 2 years on, the London house I paid 18k for had to be sold for divorce settlement, the wife says a friendly Asian estate agent, he had the shop next door to the one I set her up in, would pay 38k, all the fees and costs, and we bin 10k each, I stupidly thought it was a quick and easy fix and did no research.

Was kicking myself, and her  :D when it appeared in the paper under the agents ad, for 85k  :D :lol: Never did find out if she mugged me or he did  :lol:, must ask her next time I see her.
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Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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I think Estate agents by the nature of what they do, show the worst sides of the publick;!..

Offline estats

Any guesses as to how high interest rates can go?

I really feel like the UK is under an anxiety cloud. If it's not one thing it's another.

This is literally the million, billion, trillion dollar question.

the BOE are not as transparent as the fed, so lets go with their dot plot on fed funds rate to get read over. That shows as of September 2022 they push to 4-4.5% by the end of 2022, it moves to 4.75-5 in early 2023, remains there for all of 2023 and then is cut 75 basis points in each of the next 3 years to 2.5-3% over the longer run, 2026 and beyond. I suspect the UK would have a similar outlook. We get a slightly different read over into mortgages, this likely means a 6-7% mortgage rate as the norm for the UK, banks are just being very naughty at the moment in front running the predicted rate hikes to protect their balance sheets.

Now the big caveat, we have never beaten inflation until we have interest rates above the inflation number (and todays inflation number is a total underestimation). No one is arguing any western central bank will push interest rates beyond 8% to do that, so the market isn't arguing that the central banks won't HAVE to pivot and cut rates, they are just not sure when. Central banks almost always capitulate on rate rises or currency printing when something breaks in the system. So many have the belief an interest rate much beyond 4% for over a year breaks the system. So the simple point I'm making is don't be surprised if we get to mid 2023 and get a complete reverse in policy because institutions are starting to go bankrupt.

People are entirely missing the point when they comment on interest rates from the 1980s, yes they were a lot higher, but you have to look at the debt burden now vs then, we've had a decade of cheap money and asset bubbles because people have loaded up on debt, the read over to interest rates back in the 1980s to now, id say you have to at least double todays rate and then compare backwards, so todays 6% mortgage rate is equivalent to 12% if you want to compare backwards.

But my real point, as people may have read, is even when central banks pivot, that is worse news. The second we lower interest rates or turn back to the money printing, inflation soars, So either higher interest rates make you poorer, or on the flip side inflation will erode your wealth, there are no good options from here.

My personal view, we probably get a little beyond 4% interest rate for a relatively short period, things start to break, we'll have a major investment bank or institution go bankrupt, the equity market will capitulate, i.e. a stock market further crash from this point and at that point central banks will step in, in a war between them letting the financial system risk major contagion and getting the blame and them thinking sod it lets lose the fight to inflation and let it erode peoples wealth over years and we can blames external factors, they will choose the later. At that point inflation soars and money devalues, we probably then head towards a central bank digital currency as the "saviour" of the system.

Regardless of trying to make predictions, I think the basic take away here, the era of ultra low interest rates and cheap debt is over for a generation.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 07:28:52 am by estats »

Offline Marmalade

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Telescope - the stars are going to look amazing with no streetlighting to interfere.

Did you buy one?

I was thinking of getting one but the variety and choices were going to take too much time to research.

Offline petermisc

Doing my weekly main shop  I've been adding an few extra items here and there ( used to buy 3 tins of soup, now buy 4 etc).
You are only saving a few pence on a can of soup.  My recommendation would be to think of the higher price items.  If there are any big ticket items that you might need to replace in the next year or two, buy them now.  Things like TV, fridge, etc.

Again, anything such as work on the house, get it done before the price of raw materials rises even further.  I have just had some work done - the cost of the raw materials had doubled since when I first considered having it done, just before the pandemic hit. 

Offline Markus

You are only saving a few pence on a can of soup.  My recommendation would be to think of the higher price items.  If there are any big ticket items that you might need to replace in the next year or two, buy them now.  Things like TV, fridge, etc.

Again, anything such as work on the house, get it done before the price of raw materials rises even further.  I have just had some work done - the cost of the raw materials had doubled since when I first considered having it done, just before the pandemic hit.

Builders almost work in some sort of monopoly where they all charge the same as each other.  I’ve had some work done recently and I am quite positive that the price would have gone up by £10k if I had done it a year later.  It’s knowing where to draw the line.   Even for a simple 3 metre extension builders are quoting £50k.  I don’t understand how that can possibly be right simply because if you did an outbuilding in a similar set of dimensions it costs nothing more than £30k.   Things like this leave me baffled.

Offline jeanphillipe

XRP

I bought a grand when it was 0.33

And followed up another 4k when it was  roughly 0.5

The forecast of x10 better come to pass...

Offline petermisc

Everyone talking about things to buy, if were in a situation of power cuts.   If the shops have no power, or maybe they have there own generators, there one issue that might arise.
Trying to pay with your card or phone, if no power, thinks it very likely the banking service might be down, so cash will be king, for purchases
These days, if shops have no power, then they shut.  I have seen this a number of times, from a big shopping centre to my local high street.  With no power, the electronic tills won't open.  And staff won't know the cost of anything, as the days of putting price labels on everything are long gone.  And with no lighting, and the windows filled with advertising, it is too risky for customers to be wandering around in the dark.

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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These days, if shops have no power, then they shut.  I have seen this a number of times, from a big shopping centre to my local high street.  With no power, the electronic tills won't open.  And staff won't know the cost of anything, as the days of putting price labels on everything are long gone.  And with no lighting, and the windows filled with advertising, it is too risky for customers to be wandering around in the dark.

Standy power generation isnt that expensive if you've got somewhere to put it, and you can stop the Pikeys from nicking the diesel out of it!..

Offline Marmalade

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Standy power generation isnt that expensive if you've got somewhere to put it, and you can stop the Pikeys from nicking the diesel out of it!..

Tescos near me have at least improved their security a bit. It used to be so lax. You could point out a shoplifter and they’d just stand there mouths open and watch aghast. They at least have put someone on the door and installed entry/exit gates. Whereas the closest Lidl staff, minimal as they are, do everything including retrieving stuff from shoplifters.

Protect your arse. Then you can relax and trust everyone.

Online GreyDave

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Protect your arse. Then you can relax and trust everyone.

 :hi:  WRONG ! Learn YOGA Cause When Vald Putin starts with the serious stuff, we in UK are 1st on the Kiss our Arses bye List   :D :D :D

Offline estats

XRP

I bought a grand when it was 0.33

And followed up another 4k when it was  roughly 0.5

The forecast of x10 better come to pass...

Really? Crypto? Almost all of these cryptos will go to zero. Most people are holding them at a loss, they have no utility or value beyond utter speculation and risk will remain very much off in markets for many years, I've written on this extensively here on the crypto thread. Personally I'd dump the lot while they have any value , I've shorted these since the turn of the year and done very nicely from that. Good luck to you if you are a fan, but my analysis is you lose most your money, it's amazing how many people try to pick the bottom of the market and think they are getting value on an asset or stock when it's lost 50%+ of its value, they don't actually ask themselves why it has lost that value. It's a flaw in human psychology, they feel what goes down, must go up, but that isn't the case, it's what the market utilises to drain liquidity.

Offline petermisc

I've shorted these since the turn of the year and done very nicely from that.
Isn't shorting things when you are predicting market melt-down a bit risky?  For a short to pay-out, there has to be someone to pay you.......

Offline estats

Isn't shorting things when you are predicting market melt-down a bit risky?  For a short to pay-out, there has to be someone to pay you.......

Your point is only valid if you feel the whole financial system collapses, in which case we all have something to worry about, that is exactly why the whole market predicts central banks step in and bail things out. Now, you could be right, central banks will push on and watch systemic financial institutions go bankrupt and take a lot of people's money with them, but what did the BOE do just a few weeks ago when pension funds were running towards the brink? Bail out the gilts market to save them.

I do agree with you eventually the bail outs stop, but if central banks have to choose between them being seen to crash the financial system OR they have an option to save everything but kick the problem further down the road, e.g. let inflation slowly erode peoples wealth, I know what I think they choose. But I agree, eventually the money runs out and that is where I feel central banks will push forward a CBDC as the solution, which will essentially be a complete revaluation of money and assets in the entire economy.

On a price action basis, my take profit isn't set to zero and you have to control risk with stop losses. Nothing goes up or down in a straight line.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 07:39:40 am by estats »

Offline petermisc

Your point is only valid if you feel the whole financial system collapses, in which case we all have something to worry about, that is exactly why the whole market predicts central banks step in and bail things out.
If the stock market crashes, the regulators would likely step in to take action against short sellers, as has happened in the past.  Even if they didn't, getting your money back from a bankrupt broker could be difficult.

You have been predicting unprecedented market turbulence on a scale that we have never seen before for quite some time now, yet you still seem to implicitly trust that those markets are going to keep paying out.

Offline estats

If the stock market crashes, the regulators would likely step in to take action against short sellers, as has happened in the past.  Even if they didn't, getting your money back from a bankrupt broker could be difficult.

You have been predicting unprecedented market turbulence on a scale that we have never seen before for quite some time now, yet you still seem to implicitly trust that those markets are going to keep paying out.

I think you need to read the papers on the short term ban on shorts and actually the effect they had, most assets subject to that performed worse than the average.

You're essentially saying do I trust a broker and financial institutions, well we do have the FSCS, but your basic question is true of anyone with money in the bank, or a pension or any financial instrument.

You are correct, I have been predicting market turbulance for a year and more, may I remind you the bank of england had to step in to stop some pension funds going bankrupt 2 weeks back, on the grounds of  "a material risk to UK financial stability.", there words, not mine. All the US stock markets are in bear markets, mortgage and base interest rates are highest for more than a decade and this with the UKs personal debt ratio is of major concern, commodity prices remain towards record highs, the pound has lost a further 20% of its value against the US dollar this year. The gilt market has blown out, the government has had to step in to help pay citizens energy bills, next we get a property crash and recession and likely major institutions in trouble, throw in an ongoing war in europe and I would say this does equate to a turbulent period, but others can judge. And my personal belief is we have further turbulence to see over the near term.

But you are right, I and the entire market believe central banks, given the choice between contagion, a financial crisis and backing off interest rate hikes and starting QE again, will choose to bail the system out.

I actually believe that the market should be more allowed to take its course, in that situation my investments would be different. But the reality is back in 2008 governments and central bankers made an entirely different choice, they choose to interfere with moral hazard in markets and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Online tintin100

Really? Crypto? Almost all of these cryptos will go to zero. Most people are holding them at a loss, they have no utility or value beyond utter speculation and risk will remain very much off in markets for many years, I've written on this extensively here on the crypto thread. Personally I'd dump the lot while they have any value , I've shorted these since the turn of the year and done very nicely from that. Good luck to you if you are a fan, but my analysis is you lose most your money, it's amazing how many people try to pick the bottom of the market and think they are getting value on an asset or stock when it's lost 50%+ of its value, they don't actually ask themselves why it has lost that value. It's a flaw in human psychology, they feel what goes down, must go up, but that isn't the case, it's what the market utilises to drain liquidity.
I bailed out on bitcoin April 2021 at 40k and was quite happy, then it continue to about 48k, I am still happy and can't see myself going back in at any level.

Offline estats

I was thinking things through on the general macro environment today.

What seems most scary to me is if you look at the actions and the numbers, actually everything done so far in terms of interest rates, etc has had very little impact on inflation.

Factoring in the lag, but you still have to consider interest rates are still negative, e.g. 8% inflation and 3.25% interest in the USA, so over negative 4% real rates. It is even worse in the UK, that is we still have loose monetary policy. Indeed, we know you don't beat inflation until you get positive real interest rates for a period. But so much other data is concerning. If the purpose of interest rate rises is to encourage the slowing of demand, you would have to look at the data around savings vs debt, yet figures the other day showed US personal debt increasing and the savings rate collapsing, that is people still haven't had the behaviour change of pulling in spending and saving, they have just started financing lifestyles through the erosion of savings and then through more and more debt.

The point I'm making is we are not even at the start of tight monetary policy, the whole era of cheap debt from the last decade and more needs to be unwound and well, to sort out that misallocation of capital is going to be painful. It's actually a level of pain I don't think anyone is prepared for and moreover it isn't a fight I think we will take on before a pivot, but things are very bleak for the rest of the decade, imo.


Offline petermisc

I think you need to read the papers on the short term ban on shorts and actually the effect they had, most assets subject to that performed worse than the average.

You're essentially saying do I trust a broker and financial institutions, well we do have the FSCS, but your basic question is true of anyone with money in the bank, or a pension or any financial instrument.

You are correct, I have been predicting market turbulance for a year and more, may I remind you the bank of england had to step in to stop some pension funds going bankrupt 2 weeks back, on the grounds of  "a material risk to UK financial stability.", there words, not mine.
A stopped clock is right twice a day.  If you wait long enough, there was bound to be some market turbulence sooner or later.  Yes, there was market turbulence leading to the BoE having to step in to save pension funds, but that turbulence was due to an inept Chancellor and PM deciding to suddenly and unexpectedly announce massive unfunded tax-cuts, which I don't recall you predicting for a year or more.

I agree with you that governments and central banks will likely step in to salvage the financial system, if needs be.  However, if things are as bad as you have been predicting, they may have to be selective who they save.  From my reading of the history of shorting, and the kind of attention it got during the great depression, for example, I am not so optimistic that they will rush in to bail out those who having been shorting the markets.


Offline Marmalade

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A stopped clock is right twice a day.
Actually that's only correct in the summer I guess. ;-)  ;)

Just now it's once a day.

In the winter it's only right once and that if it's lucky!
The slack is taken up by the night.  :D

Offline estats

A stopped clock is right twice a day.  If you wait long enough, there was bound to be some market turbulence sooner or later.  Yes, there was market turbulence leading to the BoE having to step in to save pension funds, but that turbulence was due to an inept Chancellor and PM deciding to suddenly and unexpectedly announce massive unfunded tax-cuts, which I don't recall you predicting for a year or more.

It is not about making a prediction and sticking to it, it is about analysing and interpreting the data that is coming in, understanding what are leading and lagging indicators and reacting to them. If people actually understand and apply this with knowledge of economics, it is fairly obvious to see what the indicators suggest.

If you think you make a blind prediction on the short side, run with it and hope, you really don't understand markets, as they have a 60% trend upwards on average and you would far more likely be wiped out with this strategy than profit from anything. So predicting anything on the short side is far more risky than going long.

You say I don't predict monetary or fiscal intervention, I actually have and do, I have several times in this thread alone and I've said that is exactly the pivot we shall see. I've literally said given the choice between a financial collapse, a housing market collapse etc and being held accountable for that, a central bank will run back to QE IMO, the whole purpose of QE is to monetise debt, i.e. the fiscal spending of the government they could otherwise not afford, e.g. bail outs to people, tax cuts, whatever.

As for the gilts and bond markets, if you really think yields blowing-up was aboiut the 45p tax rate being scrapped, you really have to look at cause and effect and understand the wider context. Market movers have wanted to put the squeeze on UK gilts and the pound for a while, they have tried with varying degrees of success with the euro and dollar in the past. I'm not making comment on the UK governments approach, other than it is fair to say the data suggests the UK is in a fairly weak position over the next multiple of years. What I am saying is hedge funds and bond market bandits were itching for an excuse to blow out UK gilt yields, there are a lot of rumours they both targeted the move to squeeze gilt prices and the pound and then front ran the BOE intervention and turned a nice profit from both moves. If you then look post the mini budget, gilt prices and the pound recovered to higher hghs. They are of concern now, but again my interpretation is the BOE stepped in, so the market knows they have the central bank on the run, if they stepped in to protect the gilts market 2 weeks ago, why would they let it blow out 2 weeks later? If it risked UK financial stability then, it still does now, so the BOE will protect it again, that is obviously the market analysis and I'd have to say I agree with that. So if I had an active book in that market, I'd probably start to sell again and force the banks hand to step back in and buy, despite them saying it was a two week only thing.

All that equates to one point, I think the move on the gilts was far more about major players profiting from price action and the moral hazard removed back in 2008 i.e. we can force the BOE to intervene and they will and we make this move without risk, than about the governments long term fiscal plans. Markets pushed around the BOE and the BOE caved in, that is what it was really about IMO.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 06:56:39 am by estats »

Offline sir wanksalot

If you then look post the mini budget, gilt prices and the pound recovered to higher hghs.

Sorry. Are you saying post mini budget the pound recovered to higher highs?

Offline petermisc

You say I don't predict monetary or fiscal intervention, I actually have and do, I have several times in this thread alone and I've said that is exactly the pivot we shall see.
A response worthy of M&B.  Proving something that I didn't actually say is wrong.

You have been predicting market turbulence for what seems eons now, and claimed that the latest BoE intervention proved you right.  However, you didn't predict what caused it, and predicting that there is going to be market turbulence sometime in the future, without predicting the cause, is like predicting that we will have snow sometime in the future.  Wait long enough and you are bound to be right.  And it hasn't exactly been the market meltdown that you have been predicting, has it.

It is not about making a prediction and sticking to it
I shall bear that in mind in future whenever you post one of your half page predictions.



Offline estats

You have been predicting market turbulence for what seems eons now, and claimed that the latest BoE intervention proved you right.  However, you didn't predict what caused it, and predicting that there is going to be market turbulence sometime in the future, without predicting the cause, is like predicting that we will have snow sometime in the future.  Wait long enough and you are bound to be right.  And it hasn't exactly been the market meltdown that you have been predicting, has it.
I shall bear that in mind in future whenever you post one of your half page predictions.

You are actually completely wrong on that, I made this post, here on UKP on the 23rd of September.

If the BOE don't act to support sterling, the market will peg it for them by the looks, $1 = £1.

What happens if no one comes forward to buy gilts to finance UK borrowing?

These are exactly the kind of setup weekends where corporates suffer major liquidity issues, and that means financial crisis follows in short order. I suspect today is going to be talked about for a long, long time, as the starting point of 1- a financial crisis and 2- a major economic recession.


3 days later the first BOE support went in. Furthermore, I made a very clear view this morning on the post above that it was obvious the BOE would step-in again and support gilts as the market knows it has the pivot in from the BOE and so was pushing for another blow out to force the central bank to act. A few hours later the Bank steps in.

I'll leave it there. I back these market views with my own money, if I'm wrong, I'll lose it, if I'm right, I'll profit. Others can have any view they wish.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2022, 11:04:34 am by estats »

Offline estats

Sorry. Are you saying post mini budget the pound recovered to higher highs?

We are talking about the price actions around the events of the mini budget, not the all time value of the pound getting you $4.

I am indeed saying the GBP vs USD formed a higher high in the move over this period.

It hit 1.135 on the 22/9 pre mini budget, sold off, then recovered to a higher high in this period of 1.148 on the 4/10. The main media kept saying the pound had collapsed against the dollar, even though at the time many were saying it we had seen a reversal. Indeed, it had a very rapid sell-off, most of that was recovered within a day and within 5 days the pound was above the value it held before the mini budget.

It has since sold off, I've already covered why I think that is, the markets (rightly in my current view) feel they have the BOE on the run and will force them to defend both the gilts market and the pound to generate as much free collateral as they can, reverse repo and all that I won't go into.