Archie Battersbee

[catweazle]

This tragic case has been all over the news for the last few weeks.  I have huge sympathy for the family,  I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to have a 12 year old son, essentially  brain dead for months.

There have been a number of similar  stories over the last few years, where the child's parents have been through multiple court hearings, in a desperate attempt to buy more time.

While I can understand their  motives - no-one  wants to think of their child effectively  being 'switched off' by having the life support withdrawn, in almost every case the parents are, in effect,  saying " we know better than the specialist  doctors".

Sadly, they don't. The overseas clinics supposedly offering a solution  to irreversible physical damage are, in my view, looking to A) have a subject to try out something radically  experimental on and B) looking for money.

While it is clearly and obviously hugely painful, I do think that such parents need to be realistic and just accept the inevitable  and trust the highly experienced and qualified doctors.

The poor parents of Archie have had 4 months of anguish since the incident.   I hope when it is finally  all over that Archie rests in peace and his parents,somehow, get past this.

.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Yip.
Good Post.
I feel heart sorry for them having to go through a parent's worst nightmare but they are never going to have peace and closure or some semblance to it if this gets drawn out much longer.
It must be tough as well for close family trying to advise them, support them and be honest.

[timsussex]

I gather the lawyers are being bankrolled by religion and while I can understand the parents grasping at straws are there really any experimental treatments ?

[Blackpool Rock]

I almost started the same thread a few days ago but wasn't quite sure how to word it however you've done it far better than I probably would have, anyway +1 to everything you said.

What I don't understand though is that it looks as if he has a few weeks left and the family want him moved to a hospice to die in peace but the authorities won't move him as they say his condition is too weak and it could harm him, basically they are saying that moving him could kill him.

However the same authorities want to withdraw care which will also kill him, am I missing something here but their logic doesn't make sense 

[Adoniron]

I also can't understand why the hospital wouldn't agree to him being moved to a hospice. They said there was a risk he would die during the journey, but they want to switch off his life support anyway, so why not let the parents take the risk?

[Steely Dan]

Agree with OP. I have heard a few judges on the radio.  Very good people.  They are only on the child's side. 

In terms of the hospice - the doctors and others remain on child's side.  Better to die in a nice hospital bed than in a car.  I am sure it is tempting to say 'fuck it let him die in a car', but they remain professional and do what is right.

[lillythesavage]

This tragic case has been all over the news for the last few weeks.  I have huge sympathy for the family,  I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to have a 12 year old son, essentially  brain dead for months.

There have been a number of similar  stories over the last few years, where the child's parents have been through multiple court hearings, in a desperate attempt to buy more time.

While I can understand their  motives - no-one  wants to think of their child effectively  being 'switched off' by having the life support withdrawn, in almost every case the parents are, in effect,  saying " we know better than the specialist  doctors".

Sadly, they don't. The overseas clinics supposedly offering a solution  to irreversible physical damage are, in my view, looking to A) have a subject to try out something radically  experimental on and B) looking for money.

While it is clearly and obviously hugely painful, I do think that such parents need to be realistic and just accept the inevitable  and trust the highly experienced and qualified doctors.

The poor parents of Archie have had 4 months of anguish since the incident.   I hope when it is finally  all over that Archie rests in peace and his parents,somehow, get past this.

.

Tough on the NHS staff too, dealing with the family cannot be easy considering the lengths they are going to 

[Bummer]

What about that tik tok channel that allowed kids to see downright dangerous videos ? Someone should be held to account for a fit heathy child ending like that

[Adoniron]

What about that tik tok channel that allowed kids to see downright dangerous videos ? Someone should be held to account for a fit heathy child ending like that

Absolutely. What a tragic, pointless death  and apparently Archie is not the only person to lose his life due to this stupid challenge.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I had thought what if that was my child. I'm not a doctor but do understand quite a bit of what goes on in nuero medicine circles. I don't doubt for a moment that the poor lad has gone, being described as brain stem dead, he is just being kept alive by artifical means and when they are taken away, yes he will pass. There is a excellecnt film that was made at Addenbrookes hospital in Cambridge called "between life and death" its on Youtube in 3 parts, its about peoiple who have had devastating head injuries and should they be kept on support or not.

It seems to me his mum can't accept that her son has gone and in reality won't be coming back home, and its devastating for her to accept that, poor woman, i think also her disbelif and anger of whats happend is a part of greving that goes thru stages akin to that shes going through. Best i think foir all concerned is to now let him go and  just have to accept it. I'm sure the doctrors know he is a in a very fragile state and by the time hes moved to this hospice, he'll be dead anyway.

Its been far from easy for the judges involved the medical staff have bene thru the mill and i hope that they withdraw support for the poor lad tomorrow as planned, for his mum and dads sake so they can get on and greive for him which is what they must now do, poor souls!.     

[myothernameis]

I think even when the boy is at rest, this saga isn't over.   I could see the family launching a law suit against the hospital

[PepeMAGA]

What about that tik tok channel that allowed kids to see downright dangerous videos ? Someone should be held to account for a fit heathy child ending like that

Anyone that let's their kid have tiktok on their phone is either very misinformed or dumb. Just take a look at the terms and conditions for starters.

[lamboman]

Yes good post by catweazle,a very sad case what a waste of a young life I'm guessing it was auto asphyxiation .
I can't help feeling his mother is drawing out her agony though,is it correct theses legal challenges are being bankrolled by a religious organisation.
As for moving him to a hospice clearly he is not going to survive that.

[daviemac]

What about that tik tok channel that allowed kids to see downright dangerous videos ? Someone should be held to account for a fit heathy child ending like that

The minimum age to use TikTok is 13 Archie is only 12 so as tragic as it is it is where does the responsibility actually lie.   

[lillythesavage]

The minimum age to use TikTok is 13 Archie is only 12 so as tragic as it is it is where does the responsibility actually lie.   

That is maybe where a lot of the parental guilt and this continuing case stems from.

On the other side, is there age verification ?, if there was kids would get round it, lot to be said for not allowing kids smartphones, only using a home computer that is not in their bedroom. That was always the advice pre smart phones.

A child really does not need a mobile phone and it feeds lazy parenting, childhood was much easier before the internet, all I needed was 2 bikes and my mates, one for the road and one we all built ourselves for the forest.

[Kinkylondongent]

I also can't understand why the hospital wouldn't agree to him being moved to a hospice. They said there was a risk he would die during the journey, but they want to switch off his life support anyway, so why not let the parents take the risk?

If he arrested in a lift or in a corridor it wouldn't be a dignified end .

[Hobbit]

I agree, it is difficult for the family but sometimes parents don't see things clearly when their own children are involved. They can become quite instinctive or taken over by parenthood and therefore unable to make the best decision for the child. They need to think of the future, if he is brain-dead and the doctors did manage to get him back awake and living a fully conscious life, what kind of life would he have? It's hard to say but at the end of the day the choice should be his, but obviously, he is not in the position to make that choice, and therefore that decision has to be made by people that can see things clearly and in an impartial manner.

If it was me lying in that bed in that situation, I would want them to pull the plug as I would not want to come out living life with an impairment that takes away the quality of life to such a degree that it makes life not only difficult to live but regretful.

[Adoniron]

If he arrested in a lift or in a corridor it wouldn't be a dignified end.

I'm not sure it will be dignified anyway, or if he will know anything about it, however he goes.

[Gordon Bennett]

I also can't understand why the hospital wouldn't agree to him being moved to a hospice. They said there was a risk he would die during the journey, but they want to switch off his life support anyway, so why not let the parents take the risk?

Well this prolonged and futile additional "care" of recent weeks must've cost tens of thousands of pounds or more and taken up resources that could've been better utilised elsewhere. I'd imagine there'd be a significant financial cost and use of resources moving the lad. I suspect the hospital have just said enough is enough - we have other patients to consider. It's not as though it's about making his final days comfortable is it?

[Kinkylondongent]

RIP Archie

[Blackpool Rock]

RIP Archie

Bless the little lad, no winners in this apart from the lawyers again 

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Yes poor soul, now lets hope his family find some peace in their lives..

[Bummer]

Would it be any better if the child was 13 or 14 ?  I don’t believe in nanny states but kids are under so much pressure and misinformation nowadays it’s scary

[Blackpool Rock]

I've just looked at this "challenge" he was supposed to have been doing, apparently it's been around since about 2008 in slightly different forms and on different platforms but it's one of those things that can easily go wrong if you are inexperienced and on your own 

[jackdaw]

I see the family are determined to fight for change because they think “they were backed into a corner by the system”.

It’s impossible not to have sympathy for the parents… but I actually think what they did was cruel (I know that wasn’t their intention!), and actually they were the ones that forced the medical team to take the case to court.

[myothernameis]

It looks like the family are calling for an inquiry, into the legal battle to have his life support withdrawn

Now I cant help but think, shouldnt the family just leave this as it is, and let poor Archie rest in peace

[lillythesavage]

I agree, it is difficult for the family but sometimes parents don't see things clearly when their own children are involved. They can become quite instinctive or taken over by parenthood and therefore unable to make the best decision for the child. They need to think of the future, if he is brain-dead and the doctors did manage to get him back awake and living a fully conscious life, what kind of life would he have? It's hard to say but at the end of the day the choice should be his, but obviously, he is not in the position to make that choice, and therefore that decision has to be made by people that can see things clearly and in an impartial manner.

If it was me lying in that bed in that situation, I would want them to pull the plug as I would not want to come out living life with an impairment that takes away the quality of life to such a degree that it makes life not only difficult to live but regretful.

My uncle survived a brain tumour, had a massive stroke after the op, quite usual apparently, never walked and could barely talk, when he ended up in hospital again with cancer, it was the most comforting thing when he managed to look me straight in the eye and answer my question.

I guess he had already had the chat  with the wife and kids, I just asked  " have you had enough" the smile said it all. It was his choice and knowing that made a big difference.

In this case the boy had no choice, but being a dribbling wheelchair bound wreck needing your ass wiped is no life at all. harder too if you knew a different life.

They should let the boy RIP.

[radioman33]

The mother is a pain in the arse,the decision made by the experts was correct,he’s brain stem dead,no cure.Why doesn’t she just stop causing trouble.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

The mother is a pain in the arse,the decision made by the experts was correct,he’s brain stem dead,no cure.Why doesn’t she just stop causing trouble.

Yes she probally was but before we judge her have you, do you know anyone who has lost a child?.

I have, they're never the same again! loose a wife husband bad sometimes, but a child another thing completly!..

Bad enough for some women to have a misscarridge let alone an otherwise healthy 12 year old!..

[myothernameis]

The mother is a pain in the arse,the decision made by the experts was correct,he’s brain stem dead,no cure.Why doesn’t she just stop causing trouble.

If the mother is seeking further action, any action would require some sort of finance.  So just wonder when the Just Giving or Go-fund me account will appear.   And no doubt the members of the public will donate, as they will all feel sorry for the mother

[lillythesavage]

Yes she probally was but before we judge her have you, do you know anyone who has lost a child?.

I have, they're never the same again! loose a wife husband bad sometimes, but a child another thing completly!..

Bad enough for some women to have a misscarridge let alone an otherwise healthy 12 year old!..

Yep, even for those with other kids, a single child is a real tough one. Yet there are those that will murder their own 

[southcoastpunter]

whilst i think the doctors were right in this case, they aren't always right. Somtimes, miracles seem to happen and people recover from otherwise seeminglessly hopeless situations.

And i remember a case not too many years ago (as it was in this part of the country), where parents wanted to take their son to (i think) the Czech Republic (or some Eastern european country) for cancer treatment when the NHS said that this would not help him and not only refuised to pay for it, refused to allow the parents to take the boy out of hospital and when they did,  got the police invloved and the parents were arrested at the port leaving the Uk with their son. A legal and medical battle ensued and a few weeks later the NHS agreed to let him go and have this treatment and a few months after that, the NHS bought 3 of these new cancer treating (radiotherapy) machines for the UK. (this was only 7 or 8 years ago and obviously a new generation of radiotherapy /cancer treatment machines)

so they don't always get everything right and we shouldn't just accept everything they say as gospel!

[bigden40]

whilst i think the doctors were right in this case, they aren't always right. Somtimes, miracles seem to happen and people recover from otherwise seeminglessly hopeless situations.

And i remember a case not too many years ago (as it was in this part of the country), where parents wanted to take their son to (i think) the Czech Republic (or some Eastern european country) for cancer treatment when the NHS said that this would not help him and not only refuised to pay for it, refused to allow the parents to take the boy out of hospital and when they did,  got the police invloved and the parents were arrested at the port leaving the Uk with their son. A legal and medical battle ensued and a few weeks later the NHS agreed to let him go and have this treatment and a few months after that, the NHS bought 3 of these new cancer treating (radiotherapy) machines for the UK. (this was only 7 or 8 years ago and obviously a new generation of radiotherapy /cancer treatment machines)

so they don't always get everything right and we shouldn't just accept everything they say as gospel!

Not exactly comparable but the case you’re referring to is Asyha King.  He was being treated in Southampton but his parents wanted to use “proton therapy” which wasn’t available in the UK to treat a brain tumour instead of conventional radiotherapy for which the side effects would have been significant.  They took him to Prague for treatment and were arrested  for  their troubles. 

Not only was the treatment in Prague successful, but a few years later he had made a full recovery, was cancer free and living a normal life.

[jackdaw]

 

whilst i think the doctors were right in this case, they aren't always right. Somtimes, miracles seem to happen and people recover from otherwise seeminglessly hopeless situations.

And i remember a case not too many years ago (as it was in this part of the country), where parents wanted to take their son to (i think) the Czech Republic (or some Eastern european country) for cancer treatment when the NHS said that this would not help him and not only refuised to pay for it, refused to allow the parents to take the boy out of hospital and when they did,  got the police invloved and the parents were arrested at the port leaving the Uk with their son. A legal and medical battle ensued and a few weeks later the NHS agreed to let him go and have this treatment and a few months after that, the NHS bought 3 of these new cancer treating (radiotherapy) machines for the UK. (this was only 7 or 8 years ago and obviously a new generation of radiotherapy /cancer treatment machines)

so they don't always get everything right and we shouldn't just accept everything they say as gospel!

No…of course..NHS doesn’t always get it right. (Indeed it’s increasingly error prone in my experience.)

But..the present system doesn’t require anybody to “accept everything NHS say is gospel”. There are a number of channels open to challenge decisions, ranging from asking for a second opinion right up to a challenge in the courts.

I’m not sure how in this one specific area (complaints procedures) this case has highlighted any weakness in the system itself. It’s an extreme case…parents and medical professionals are able to agree a shared approach in 99.9 percent of cases.

 In the few cases where agreement (between parents and medical professionals) cannot be reached…then surely the courts are the only defendable option?? (As having a rule that parents wishes were always complied with would patently be just as damaging as saying doctors always right.)

[radioman33]

Yes she probally was but before we judge her have you, do you know anyone who has lost a child?.

I have, they're never the same again! loose a wife husband bad sometimes, but a child another thing completly!..

Bad enough for some women to have a misscarridge let alone an otherwise healthy 12 year old!..

Doctors are trained to approach the situation with facts and not emotions.

[Stevelondon]

Not exactly comparable but the case you’re referring to is Asyha King.  He was being treated in Southampton but his parents wanted to use “proton therapy” which wasn’t available in the UK to treat a brain tumour instead of conventional radiotherapy for which the side effects would have been significant.  They took him to Prague for treatment and were arrested  for  their troubles. 

Not only was the treatment in Prague successful, but a few years later he had made a full recovery, was cancer free and living a normal life.

Sadly not really normal. He is still severely disabled.
As an aside. His parents are now separated. The mother living in Spain away from her husband and children.
She blames her husband’s obsessive religious beliefs for the break up.
Jehovah strikes again.