Bernie loved Putin

[RedKettle]

Not sure what “Western media” you’re reading if you get impression that they have been consistent and uniform predictions that Ukraine will win, and Russia will lose.

I read (not ultra carefully) Times, Telegraph and listen a lot to Radio 5. Really all those sources initially predicted a fairly quick Russian victory, and have all suggested if Russia is determined to grind away, it will ultimately “win” the military conflict.

I find that quite often this lot are telling me what the media is saying to me and I simply do not recognise it - I think the problem is that they are taking their view of mainstream media from the same sources they get their other views from.  Ironically the so called free thinkers are being far spoon fed but they do not see it.

[King Nuts]

For me you discredit yourself in the first sentence and it tells me a lot about your views and where you get them from.  There is a definition of a pandemic, covid was not a so called one. By lies I suspect you mean errors that were made assessing something we had never dealt with before. Unless you mean party gate in which case I would agree.

Later you casually dismiss the right of a sovereign nation to determine its own course.

Really? Get a grip.

There's no absolute definition of 'pandemic'. It's simply a term used to describe an illness that has spread over many countries. There isn't a set number that has to be breached before an illness can be described as a pandemic.

History will show, and it's already beginning to show, there were all manner of deceptions coming from China, and with the complicity of the WHO (whose one fucking job is to stop this sort of shit from happening in the first place, and at which they failed miserably.)

[jackdaw]

There's no absolute definition of 'pandemic'. It's simply a term used to describe an illness that has spread over many countries. There isn't a set number that has to be breached before an illness can be described as a pandemic.

But that (“an illness that has spread over many countries”) is effectively the definition of pandemic!

Can you really not understood why it seems strange for you to say “so called pandemic” in relation to Covid??

[Jerboa]

For me you discredit yourself in the first sentence and it tells me a lot about your views and where you get them from.  There is a definition of a pandemic, covid was not a so called one. By lies I suspect you mean errors that were made assessing something we had never dealt with before. Unless you mean party gate in which case I would agree.

Later you casually dismiss the right of a sovereign nation to determine its own course.

Really? Get a grip.

This is the real world, like it or not great powers do as they please, US has done this for 30 years, I can't remember the world sanctioning US/UK when we invaded Iraq in 2003 on false claims.

[King Nuts]

But that (“an illness that has spread over many countries”) is effectively the definition of pandemic!

Can you really not understood why it seems strange for you to say “so called pandemic” in relation to Covid??

Firstly, I'm not the one that said that.

Second, if 11 people in this country have some kind of illness or infection, and 3 people in Belgium and one person in Switzerland have it, for example, then that's a pandemic too, by definition.
.
So does cancer count? What about colds and flu?

My point is that in the absence of a more finite definition, it's a pandemic if someone says it is.

[RedKettle]

Firstly, I'm not the one that said that.

Second, if 11 people in this country have some kind of illness or infection, and 3 people in Belgium and one person in Switzerland have it, for example, then that's a pandemic too, by definition.
.
So does cancer count? What about colds and flu?

My point is that in the absence of a more finite definition, it's a pandemic if someone says it is.

The fact you mention cancer in relation to a pandemic really shows you do not understand the point.

Anyway this was clearly a pandemic with community transmission in several countries and was classed as such by the WHO.  There is no doubt and to say "so called" speaks to the type of conspiracy views held by that person.

[RedKettle]

This is the real world, like it or not great powers do as they please, US has done this for 30 years, I can't remember the world sanctioning US/UK when we invaded Iraq in 2003 on false claims.

What the US and UK did it Iraq is not relevant - it is mentioned to distract from the horror in front of us.  (Please do not make the mistake the others did of assuming, with typical arrogance, that by saying that I am a supporter of the Iraq war). 

Russia is in the wrong - it is a simple and clear point.

[jackdaw]

Firstly, I'm not the one that said that.

Second, if 11 people in this country have some kind of illness or infection, and 3 people in Belgium and one person in Switzerland have it, for example, then that's a pandemic too, by definition.
.

Apologies on first point. (Ascribing wrong quote to you.)

Definition of pandemic is 2 fold…first it needs to be a widespread contagious illness (i.e. qualify as an epidemic) and also be present in a wide area, several countries.

So no..I don’t think the examples you quote would qualify as a pandemic.

[King Nuts]

The fact you mention cancer in relation to a pandemic really shows you do not understand the point.

Anyway this was clearly a pandemic with community transmission in several countries and was classed as such by the WHO.  There is no doubt and to say "so called" speaks to the type of conspiracy views held by that person.

OK, so a pandemic is classed as an outbreak of a disease. That could apply to any one of a number or illnesses or diseases. And if the disease sticks around, it's then endemic. Like cancer.

The bit I wonder is this: that if the media had never bothered reporting it and the world's governments hadn't panicked quite so much, would we even know that Covid was going around?

I think that because we all saw the way the Chinese were welding people into their apartments, and the overflowing hospitals in northern Italy (and there were very specific reasons why that area was so badly affected) the world was gripped by a collective panic that has not even remotely been justified.

So I'm back to my point. Something is only a pandemic when someone says it is. Various vicious types of flu have been affecting us for decades, and I don't remember a red alert sounding every time some new wave came upon us.

[mills_and_bhuna]

OK, so a pandemic is classed as an outbreak of a disease. That could apply to any one of a number or illnesses or diseases. And if the disease sticks around, it's then endemic. Like cancer.

The bit I wonder is this: that if the media had never bothered reporting it and the world's governments hadn't panicked quite so much, would we even know that Covid was going around?

I think that because we all saw the way the Chinese were welding people into their apartments, and the overflowing hospitals in northern Italy (and there were very specific reasons why that area was so badly affected) the world was gripped by a collective panic that has not even remotely been justified.

So I'm back to my point. Something is only a pandemic when someone says it is. Various vicious types of flu have been affecting us for decades, and I don't remember a red alert sounding every time some new wave came upon us.

Cancer can't really be compared to other diseases.
It's just the body's processes turning upon themselves and in the majority of cases it seems to be a disease of the affluent West partly due to life expectancy increases and partly I suspect due to our exposure to a myriad of chemical agents.

[Thephoenix]

According to many cancer experts including Bob Weinberg who's possibly one of the most famous cancer researchers, cancer rates are rising mostly because we live longer.
"If you live long enough, you will get cancer."

[Jerboa]

What the US and UK did it Iraq is not relevant - it is mentioned to distract from the horror in front of us.  (Please do not make the mistake the others did of assuming, with typical arrogance, that by saying that I am a supporter of the Iraq war). 

Russia is in the wrong - it is a simple and clear point.

IMO Iraq is totally relevant, George and Tony made up a jackanory story, junior wanted to finish daddy's business. I know full well because I was sent there, we were told Iraq had WMD, and were sat in our trenches in full NBC dress state 4 Romeo at kick off. Why was it acceptable for us to invade Iraq because of national security concerns, though Russia has no right to a national security interest in Ukraine today?

[jackdaw]

IMO Iraq is totally relevant, George and Tony made up a jackanory story, junior wanted to finish daddy's business. I know full well because I was sent there, we were told Iraq had WMD, and were sat in our trenches in full NBC dress state 4 Romeo at kick off. Why was it acceptable for us to invade Iraq because of national security concerns, though Russia has no right to a national security interest in Ukraine today?

But no one here is queuing up to say it was okay for us to invade IRAQ.

 And even at the time there was enormous domestic opposition to it…it effectively ended the Reverend Tony’s career as a serious force in UK politics.

[Adoniron]

According to many cancer experts including Bob Weinberg who's possibly one of the most famous cancer researchers, cancer rates are rising mostly because we live longer.
"If you live long enough, you will get cancer."

Same with Alzheimers. In the past few people developed it because they died younger of other diseases.

[Jerboa]

But no one here is queuing up to say it was okay for us to invade IRAQ.

 And even at the time there was enormous domestic opposition to it…it effectively ended the Reverend Tony’s career as a serious force in UK politics.

Yes but was Britain sanctioned by the democratic loving nations? It's sportsmen banned from competition, removed from the global swift system?

[jackdaw]

Oops, double post

[jackdaw]

Yes but was Britain sanctioned by the democratic loving nations? It's sportsmen banned from competition, removed from the global swift system?

No, similarly Russia largely got away with Crimea, China gets away with all sorts of crap…and USA is even more Teflon coated.

I suspect I largely agree with your view of life.

[Jerboa]

No, similarly Russia largely got away with Crimea, China gets away with all sorts of crap…and USA is even more Teflon coated.

I suspect I largely agree with your view of life.

Years ago I believed everything the BBC told me, that Russia is bad, Putin bad, he wants the USSR back, it's nonsense.

[RedKettle]

he wants the USSR back, it's nonsense.

Well Putin said that - so could be nonsense as he lies about everything.

[RedKettle]

OK, so a pandemic is classed as an outbreak of a disease. That could apply to any one of a number or illnesses or diseases. And if the disease sticks around, it's then endemic. Like cancer.

The bit I wonder is this: that if the media had never bothered reporting it and the world's governments hadn't panicked quite so much, would we even know that Covid was going around?

I think that because we all saw the way the Chinese were welding people into their apartments, and the overflowing hospitals in northern Italy (and there were very specific reasons why that area was so badly affected) the world was gripped by a collective panic that has not even remotely been justified.

So I'm back to my point. Something is only a pandemic when someone says it is. Various vicious types of flu have been affecting us for decades, and I don't remember a red alert sounding every time some new wave came upon us.

Really not sure where to start with that.

Cancer is not contagious so cannot be a pandemic.

Are you really saying that if we had done nothing it would have passed?  The early covid was a killer and would have killed a huge number, especially in the older populations.

You complain constantly about poor media but you expect them to ignore a new virus that is sweeping around the world leaving hospitals over whelmed??

I am not necessarily saying that the lock downs were the only or best response and for sure there were some stupid aspects of the rules.  But to say that if we had simply pretended it was not there all would have been fine is....well it is beyond words.

You also forget how little we knew about it at the start - we might have been ignoring a virus capable of much worse than it was.

[chrishornx]

Well Putin said that - so could be nonsense as he lies about everything.

bound to be nonsense

[King Nuts]

Are you really saying that if we had done nothing it would have passed?  The early covid was a killer and would have killed a huge number, especially in the older populations.

You complain constantly about poor media but you expect them to ignore a new virus that is sweeping around the world leaving hospitals over whelmed??

Figures I have read have shown that excess deaths (presumably as a result of Covid) are not worse than any year when flu has been endemic.

I have known one person who died, ostensibly of Covid, but the dude had late stage cancer anyway. I'm not saying it's not a nasty virulent thing, because it's obvious that it is.

I didn't 'expect' the media to ignore it, but I just wonder out loud what would've happened, had the media decided not to make any kind of a story out of it. What would most people have noticed or been aware of?

There's a slight parallel here with train suicides. I know there's a deal, of sorts, between the TOCs, the police and the media, whereby the media rarely report them. Station and on-train announcements refer to 'passenger incidents' and no further detail is given. The reasons are obvious, in that they don't want to alarm passengers and don't want to encourage other potential suicides.

So I wonder what would've happened, had the same line been taken with Covid.

[Lewwy]

Figures I have read have shown that excess deaths (presumably as a result of Covid) are not worse than any year when flu has been endemic.

I have known one person who died, ostensibly of Covid, but the dude had late stage cancer anyway. I'm not saying it's not a nasty virulent thing, because it's obvious that it is.

I didn't 'expect' the media to ignore it, but I just wonder out loud what would've happened, had the media decided not to make any kind of a story out of it. What would most people have noticed or been aware of?

There's a slight parallel here with train suicides. I know there's a deal, of sorts, between the TOCs, the police and the media, whereby the media rarely report them. Station and on-train announcements refer to 'passenger incidents' and no further detail is given. The reasons are obvious, in that they don't want to alarm passengers and don't want to encourage other potential suicides.

So I wonder what would've happened, had the same line been taken with Covid.

And that surely defeats your whole argument. If we assume your statement as to the numbers is true (I'm not convinced that it is) then we have to accept those numbers against the background of absolutely enormous social upheaval in form of swingeing restrictions on people's freedom to move about, go to work, socially interact and everything else that occurred. Literally tens of millions of people barely crossed their thresholds for month upon month. It's only been very recently that people have started travelling internationally again. Despite all that - things which probably amount to the most stringent restrictions of peoples liberty to interact with one another for perhaps hundreds of years - we still "only" managed to keep excess deaths to the level that flu causes each year. We also must remember that Covid was causing people out-with the normal flu demographic to become seriously ill and die.

You cannot claim that a contagious disease capable of causing serious illness and death is "no more deadly than 'X'" if you don't apply the same precautions to dealing with X. Indeed, were we to do so then X would not be the problem that it was. A point that was well proved during Covid as we didn't get the usual number of flu deaths because people weren't mixing!!. The fact that we got the number of Covid illnesses and deaths that we did tends to suggest that had we simply ignored it the consequences would have been nothing short of apocalyptic! 

[badsin]

In relation to covid deaths, this is always worth a watch:

 External Link/Members Only

 🇸🇪

[mills_and_bhuna]

But no one here is queuing up to say it was okay for us to invade IRAQ.

 And even at the time there was enormous domestic opposition to it…it effectively ended the Reverend Tony’s career as a serious force in UK politics.

No it didn't.
The snivelling little shite bag saw what was coming with the 2008 crash caused by Wall Street and the Neoliberals and thought 'fuck that,  Brown can take over'.
George Galloway,  Robin Cook and Jeremy Corbyn had the balls to stand up to the nonsense but have been smeared at every turn ever since.
The cheerleader class for Iraq paid no real political price.
They should be in prison.

[lostandfound]

OK, so a pandemic is classed as an outbreak of a disease. That could apply to any one of a number or illnesses or diseases. And if the disease sticks around, it's then endemic. Like cancer.

A classic. 

Right up there with you asking if covid can be transmitted via the 5G network.

[King Nuts]

A classic. 

Right up there with you asking if covid can be transmitted via the 5G network.

What are you, a doctor?

[chrishornx]

A classic. 

Right up there with you asking if covid can be transmitted via the 5G network.

no surely nobody asked that?

[Blackpool Rock]

no surely nobody asked that?

Wasn't this part of the conspiracy theory tin hat brigade claiming that the vaccine had a micro chip in it that could be then activated by 5G so the Govt could track everyone's movements or some such crap 

I do seem to recall some fuckwits on here claiming this sort of shit at the time but can't remember who was spouting it

[Watts.E.Dunn]

Too many B Rock, the amount of total Bollix on sosual medja is amazing!....

[m4rmite]

To all non covid believers.
I'm not sure why i spent a week in hospital and 3 weeks on oxygen if covid ain't real.  Not to mention the pneumonia or caused.

I'm sure the lowered saps of sub 95 that i suffer 18 month afterwards is because I'm a little chubby as well.

I also guess the 16 who died in a week on the same ward are also bollocks.

Long live flat earthers..

[chrishornx]

Wasn't this part of the conspiracy theory tin hat brigade claiming that the vaccine had a micro chip in it that could be then activated by 5G so the Govt could track everyone's movements or some such crap 

I do seem to recall some fuckwits on here claiming this sort of shit at the time but can't remember who was spouting it

but surely the legendary Nuts didn't ask such a daft question?

[lostandfound]

What are you, a doctor?

The same mechanism that powers evolution and created humans also causes cancer - random copying errors during cell replication.

So no cancer = no evolution = no humankind.

[king tarzan]

Bernie Eccleston is a senile old tosser. Best description for him is LOMBARD.
Loads Of Money But A Right Dickhead.

I would take that anyday
Loads of money and dickhead..
No problemo

[Blackpool Rock]

I would take that anyday
Loads of money and dickhead..
No problemo

So do you have loads money then   

[king tarzan]

So do you have loads money then   

Nope

Simpletto signor 🙌🙌🙌

[shed]

Bernie, oh dear.!!
HMRC finally got you for potential fraud tax evasion 400m undeclared assets.
Too old to spend your last years in the Nick

[Colston36]

Bernie Ecclestone has beyond fuck you money.  So he can voice his opinion without caring what others think.

Happily he's now being prosecuted for hiding £400 million.

[Adoniron]

Bernie, oh dear.!!
HMRC finally got you for potential fraud tax evasion 400m undeclared assets.
Too old to spend your last years in the Nick

At his age he'll probably die before the case gets to court.

[Lewwy]

No it didn't.
The snivelling little shite bag saw what was coming with the 2008 crash caused by Wall Street and the Neoliberals and thought 'fuck that,  Brown can take over'.
George Galloway,  Robin Cook and Jeremy Corbyn had the balls to stand up to the nonsense but have been smeared at every turn ever since.
The cheerleader class for Iraq paid no real political price.
They should be in prison.

Comrade Steptoe hasn't had the balls to stand up to, or commit to, anything his life. All the causes, such as various hues of terrorist, he's aligned himself with over his life have always been ones which he knows will never get him into any position of responsibility so ne never need make a decision of any significant importance. They are all also deeply unpleasant. He only became Labour leader by accident due to their ridiculous voting system that allowed anyone to join in and sabotage their party - which was remarkably successful in that regard.

The luckiest event this Country ever experienced in the past several hundred years was when he failed - spectacularly - to win a GE. I dread to think what sort of shit state we'd be in were he in charge over Covid. The UK would be a modern rendition of all of Europe post immediately Black Death. I really don't think that most people appreciate what a massive bullet we dodged in that regard.

[chrishornx]

The luckiest event this Country ever experienced in the past several hundred years was when he failed - spectacularly - to win a GE. I dread to think what sort of shit state we'd be in were he in charge over Covid. The UK would be a modern rendition of all of Europe post immediately Black Death. I really don't think that most people appreciate what a massive bullet we dodged in that regard.

you haven't been paying attention Lewwy ...Mighty Dwarf, Comrade Putin would have come charging over the hill and rescued us all

[mills_and_bhuna]

Comrade Steptoe hasn't had the balls to stand up to, or commit to, anything his life. All the causes, such as various hues of terrorist, he's aligned himself with over his life have always been ones which he knows will never get him into any position of responsibility so ne never need make a decision of any significant importance. They are all also deeply unpleasant. He only became Labour leader by accident due to their ridiculous voting system that allowed anyone to join in and sabotage their party - which was remarkably successful in that regard.

The luckiest event this Country ever experienced in the past several hundred years was when he failed - spectacularly - to win a GE. I dread to think what sort of shit state we'd be in were he in charge over Covid. The UK would be a modern rendition of all of Europe post immediately Black Death. I really don't think that most people appreciate what a massive bullet we dodged in that regard.

I see the mainstream smears got to you as well.
Look around you.
Things aren't great..
Half the country is up to its eyeballs in debt.
And that's the ones with roofs over their head.
Meanwhile the plutocracy is distracting you with yellow and blue flags.

[mills_and_bhuna]

you haven't been paying attention Lewwy ...Mighty Dwarf, Comrade Putin would have come charging over the hill and rescued us all

Mighty dwarf?
Our 'leaders' are a blubbering tosspot about 3 stone overweight and a senile old cunt who needs cue cards telling him to breathe.
I wouldn't draw too much attention to Vlad's physical attributes if I were you.
Pretty sure ex-KGB and a judo black belt would kick your arse into next week even pushing 70

[Lewwy]

I see the mainstream smears got to you as well.
Look around you.
Things aren't great..
Half the country is up to its eyeballs in debt.
And that's the ones with roofs over their head.
Meanwhile the plutocracy is distracting you with yellow and blue flags.

Please don't push the line that I've been duped by the "mainstream media", I haven't. It is not a smear to say what I've said about Jeremy Corbyn - he is unhinged, remarkably unintelligent and has a seriously nasty side to his character. He is utterly incapable of making any decisions. You are simply tagging on some "facts" about life at present as a pathetic attempt to divert from what I said. Lets assume I agree with everything you said there from the third line down - none of that changes what Corbyn is. He is a hard-line leftist who could not pass a Uni course on Trades Union Studies, ffs. He knows he's a bit thick which is why he exhibits clear anger management problems when he can't deal with sensible arguments. Surely you recall him physically hitting out at a female journalist and having to be restrained some years back? That is a display of a lack of control which is absolutely something to be avoided in someone who wants to be in control of a nuclear armed state! Comrade Corbyn has always claimed to be a committed pacifist when he clearly is nothing of the sort.

It is glaringly obvious to anyone that we dodged a massive bullet when he lost the last GE - not that there was much danger of being hit by it in any event, to be fair. Him and the rest of his bunch of incompetent cronies being in charge over Covid would have been disastrous. Absolutely apocalyptic, in fact. 

[Lewwy]

Mighty dwarf?
Our 'leaders' are a blubbering tosspot about 3 stone overweight and a senile old cunt who needs cue cards telling him to breathe.
I wouldn't draw too much attention to Vlad's physical attributes if I were you.
Pretty sure ex-KGB and a judo black belt would kick your arse into next week even pushing 70

Give over, he's clearly got a massive case of "little man syndrome" going on there. Once again, you're just trying to deflect from his massive short-comings by highlighting the short-comings of others. Oh, and resorting to the equivalent of "My dad would kick your dad's head in" in your last sentence is rather pathetic, especially when we're talking about judging the suitability of the leader of heavily armed states.

[RedKettle]

I see the mainstream smears got to you as well.
.

You might benefit from pausing the use of this excuse to write off any other view than yours.  It not only betrays an arrogance that is very unappealing it is masking your inability to actually assess facts and arguments and join the debate.  If you opened your mind to the possibility that others might be intelligent and might have experiences of the world that you do not have you never know you might learn something.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Please don't push the line that I've been duped by the "mainstream media", I haven't. It is not a smear to say what I've said about Jeremy Corbyn - he is unhinged, remarkably unintelligent and has a seriously nasty side to his character. He is utterly incapable of making any decisions. You are simply tagging on some "facts" about life at present as a pathetic attempt to divert from what I said. Lets assume I agree with everything you said there from the third line down - none of that changes what Corbyn is. He is a hard-line leftist who could not pass a Uni course on Trades Union Studies, ffs. He knows he's a bit thick which is why he exhibits clear anger management problems when he can't deal with sensible arguments. Surely you recall him physically hitting out at a female journalist and having to be restrained some years back? That is a display of a lack of control which is absolutely something to be avoided in someone who wants to be in control of a nuclear armed state! Comrade Corbyn has always claimed to be a committed pacifist when he clearly is nothing of the sort.

It is glaringly obvious to anyone that we dodged a massive bullet when he lost the last GE - not that there was much danger of being hit by it in any event, to be fair. Him and the rest of his bunch of incompetent cronies being in charge over Covid would have been disastrous. Absolutely apocalyptic, in fact.

and yet Labour membership went up when he was leader and down again when he was stabbed in the back

[mills_and_bhuna]

You might benefit from pausing the use of this excuse to write off any other view than yours.  It not only betrays an arrogance that is very unappealing it is masking your inability to actually assess facts and arguments and join the debate.  If you opened your mind to the possibility that others might be intelligent and might have experiences of the world that you do not have you never know you might learn something.

I'll take advice from someone with principles if you don't mind.
You totally lost me when you excused our failings and inaction on Palestine and Yemen with 'I guess that's just the way it is"

[mills_and_bhuna]

Give over, he's clearly got a massive case of "little man syndrome" going on there. Once again, you're just trying to deflect from his massive short-comings by highlighting the short-comings of others. Oh, and resorting to the equivalent of "My dad would kick your dad's head in" in your last sentence is rather pathetic, especially when we're talking about judging the suitability of the leader of heavily armed states.

Clearly.
Like you know everything there is to know about Putin from BBC hit pieces by hack journos

[RedKettle]

I'll take advice from someone with principles if you don't mind.
You totally lost me when you excused our failings and inaction on Palestine and Yemen with 'I guess that's just the way it is"

You just keep digging.........

If that is what you read my view to be it massively supports what I am saying about your prejudices blinding you to debate.

Anyway you utterly fail on principles with your justification for murderer Putin