Saudi backed LIV golf

[mazda40]

The Saudi backed LIV golf tournament tees off tomorrow(friday).
  Are we witnessing the first step in the break up of the pga and dp world tours?

The golfers seem to be getting a particularly hard time in the press, compared to F1, snooker, boxing, tennis, footballers or even female golfers. Infact a Saudi event was on the Euro tour in recent years.

How do you see this playing out?

[king tarzan]

It's all a bunch of shit

Money talks..

Just showpiece fake stance ...

Then da $$$$$$$$$ talk maan!!!

[suttonporksword]

I hope the usga, pga, European  tour and r&a ban them all for life. Watch them lose all world ranking points, access to majors and Ryder cup. Not like any of them arent already multi millionaires but still went after the cash. Lost a lot of respect for greg norman

[lamboman]

I hope the usga, pga, European  tour and r&a ban them all for life. Watch them lose all world ranking points, access to majors and Ryder cup. Not like any of them arent already multi millionaires but still went after the cash. Lost a lot of respect for greg norman

Same here,Norman has come across as a right wanker as has Mickleson and some of the rest aren't much better.
I suspect some may live to regret taking the Saudi dollar when they can no longer enter majors or get selected for the Ryder cup as seems to be the case.
Pure greed and sports washing at it's worst.

[Gordon Bennett]

The Saudi backed LIV golf tournament tees off tomorrow(friday).
  Are we witnessing the first step in the break up of the pga and dp world tours?

The golfers seem to be getting a particularly hard time in the press, compared to F1, snooker, boxing, tennis, footballers or even female golfers. Infact a Saudi event was on the Euro tour in recent years.

How do you see this playing out?

Really fucking slowly.

[stevedave]

Players like Westwood, Poulter, Mickelson... fair enough, make hay while you can, it's got to be better than the Seniors tour.

But guys like Dustin Johnson, Bryson De Chambeau etc - these guys are the current elite. Its not like they don't make enough every week!

Piss poor.

[tp69]

Players like Westwood, Poulter, Mickelson... fair enough, make hay while you can, it's got to be better than the Seniors tour.

But guys like Dustin Johnson, Bryson De Chambeau etc - these guys are the current elite. Its not like they don't make enough every week!

Piss poor.

Agree mostly with this. I guess because if you enjoy watching these guys, then it's sad to see them give up chances of winning majors, which is difficult for most golf lovers to comprehend.

However, and I'm a big golf fan myself too, a lot of the reaction stems from our own perception and dream of winning majors and therefore cannot fathom giving up that opportunity - whereas these guys are spending hundreds of hours playing golf as a business, so if they no longer have the same desire to win majors, and would rather play a much shorter season for way more cash, then so be it. We all choose our path. I really enjoy watching DJ, he's an exciting player, but I guess he's decided private time and stacks of cash are what he wants. $150m sign-on is pretty compelling to be fair.

[lamboman]

Surely watching these exhibitions is pretty pointless as the tournaments have no real end prize apart from money.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Surely the sponsors of this can't be making a profit?
I mean who actually has the time to watch this shite?
It makes Geoff Boycott highlights look gripping stuff

[tp69]

Surely watching these exhibitions is pretty pointless as the tournaments have no real end prize apart from money.

Agree at this point as there aren't enough big names. I guess if they throw enough at it and get enough big names, then it could take off.

I do like the idea of shotgun start and smaller fields - easier to find the time to watch.

PGA obviously sees it as a threat so are banning them, but if they keep losing players perhaps it they'll change their mind - the big players bring in mega millions for each event. They could make a deal with LIV around seasonality. Interesting to see what happens as it's a huge deviation. Requires endless cash or it'll fall apart and leave the players stranded.

World cricket adapted to the Indian league.

[tp69]

One thing to bear in mind re DJ - he has made $75m in 15 years on the tour.

He got $150m to join LIV - double his entire career earnings just to join.

He lost some sponsors, but will easily find others.

In any other job, could anyone turn that down? Yes no more majors, but compelling as hell.

[lamboman]

One thing to bear in mind re DJ - he has made $75m in 15 years on the tour.

He got $150m to join LIV - double his entire career earnings just to join.

He lost some sponsors, but will easily find others.

In any other job, could anyone turn that down? Yes no more majors, but compelling as hell.

I think it's his statement that "he's doing it for his family" that grates.
I would imagine you could double that $75m with endorsements so his family is not struggling.
Just admit you are greedy and have no morals.

[tp69]

I think it's his statement that "he's doing it for his family" that grates.
I would imagine you could double that $75m with endorsements so his family is not struggling.
Just admit you are greedy and have no morals.

Yes, he's made significantly more from sponsors, but he will continue to do so.

Totally agree. They should all just say they're doing it for the cash and a shorter season. Done.

[daviemac]

A similar thing happened in cricket years ago.

External Link/Members Only

Late Australian media mogul Kerry Packer changed the face of world cricket in 1977 when he secretly recruited top players for a series of day-night matches for his Channel Nine Australian TV network.

Cricket authorities were horrified and players banned, but overwhelming public support eventually forced them to accommodate the new cricket order. One-day cricket remains essentially the game forged by Packer with the shorter Twenty20 game building on that success.

[suttonporksword]

But packers competition had some positive impacts on the game. At the time test players were horrendously under paid which made it easy for packer to recruit. The pyjamas, cameras at both end of the ground and day night cricket came from his series. I would be interested to know what positive outcomes for the game of golf , other than promoting a sadistic regime and making very rich men richer

[lamboman]

But packers competition had some positive impacts on the game. At the time test players were horrendously under paid which made it easy for packer to recruit. The pyjamas, cameras at both end of the ground and day night cricket came from his series. I would be interested to know what positive outcomes for the game of golf , other than promoting a sadistic regime and making very rich men richer

Agreed Packers' idea at least had some sporting merit as has been been shown in recent history.
LIV is a simple money grab for political purposes,golf needs to appeal to a younger audience but this does not address that.

[daviemac]

But packers competition had some positive impacts on the game. At the time test players were horrendously under paid which made it easy for packer to recruit. The pyjamas, cameras at both end of the ground and day night cricket came from his series. I would be interested to know what positive outcomes for the game of golf , other than promoting a sadistic regime and making very rich men richer

I wouldn't go there.

On topic who knows what will come out of this, the players that Kerry Packer recruited were banned but that was rescinded and his ideas were incorporated into the game.   

Nothing stands still all sports evolve.

[mikecee]

Just out of interest is anyone going to televise these events?

[lamboman]

Just out of interest is anyone going to televise these events?

I think it's only online,it would be a big step to televise an event so openly propped up by an abhorent regime.

[king tarzan]

I think it's only online,it would be a big step to televise an event so openly propped up by an abhorent regime.

It's up to them how they treat there own people..
Nothing to do with us in England

[lamboman]

It's up to them how they treat there own people..
Nothing to do with us in England

"Their" you can't even spell it properly let alone deal with any other issues.
What a pathetic attitude to the world.

[king tarzan]

"Their" you can't even spell it properly let alone deal with any other issues.
What a pathetic attitude to the world.

England is not a worldwide police station..
We have serious issues here to deal with..
Simpletto 👍👍👍

[chrishornx]

Surely the sponsors of this can't be making a profit?
I mean who actually has the time to watch this shite?
It makes Geoff Boycott highlights look gripping stuff

Sponsor are not making a profit

how does it make Boycott's highlights look gripping?

[chrishornx]

I wouldn't go there.

On topic who knows what will come out of this, the players that Kerry Packer recruited were banned but that was rescinded and his ideas were incorporated into the game.   

Nothing stands still all sports evolve.

why not?

[king tarzan]

Sponsor are not making a profit

how does it make Boycott's highlights look gripping?

Great batsman..
I really admire his grit determination
Top class opener

[daviemac]

why not?

Because anyone who tries to turn this into a debate about the Saudi Arabian political system will get banned. 

For one thing it is political and for another it is isolating one nation for criticism of their human rights when several others, including Pakistan, have the worst form of execution as a legal way to put someone to death.

[chrishornx]

Because anyone who tries to turn this into a debate about the Saudi Arabian political system will get banned. 

For one thing it is political and for another it is isolating one nation for criticism of their human rights when several others, including Pakistan, have the worst form of execution as a legal way to put someone to death.

fair enough I thought you were just being sensitive because of the newcastle situation and your bias there

presumably were can discuss this on the political thread

[tp69]

Agreed Packers' idea at least had some sporting merit as has been been shown in recent history.
LIV is a simple money grab for political purposes,golf needs to appeal to a younger audience but this does not address that.

It feels like the intention is to create a 20/20 style attraction in golf. Perhaps the format isn't quite right, and perhaps it doesn't work, but it's interesting to see what happens.

I guess the only way to make it happen is to throw huge sums of money at players, as the carrot needs to significantly outweigh traditional golfing legacy. This makes is look pretty sick now, but perhaps it calms down and the prize money alone starts to draw players.

[JontyR]

Not only world series cricket but the rebel tours of South Africa in the 70's / 80's.

The Darts shift from the BDO.

And the Premier League was a rebel move away from Football League.

The key is...will there be an audience. And can the audience be monetised to make the investment (and hassle) worthwhile.

It was the threat of the audience not following that put the mockers on the European Super League, at least for now.

[mikecee]

It's up to them how they treat there own people..
Nothing to do with us in England

The first of these tournaments is taking place in England.

[jackdaw]

The first of these tournaments is taking place in England.

There’s also the point whether we’d like broadcasters that take large chunks of money out of UK subscribers (BBC, Sky, Netflix, etc, etc) to pay money at some point to televise LIV events.

Personally I wouldn’t..but that’s an easy call for me, since I’ve no interest in watching any golf!

[jackdaw]

It feels like the intention is to create a 20/20 style attraction in golf. Perhaps the format isn't quite right, and perhaps it doesn't work, but it's interesting to see what happens.

I guess the only way to make it happen is to throw huge sums of money at players, as the carrot needs to significantly outweigh traditional golfing legacy. This makes is look pretty sick now, but perhaps it calms down and the prize money alone starts to draw players.

I had a quick scan at the major changes compared to present main tournament set-ups.

In a nutshell: smaller fields, 3 day tournament as opposed to 4, no half way cut, and organising players into mini teams and giving team prize money as well as individual prizes.

I’m not sure the team aspect will work at all….yes obviously the Ryder Cup works, but that’s a very different set-up to normal tournament golf, which is at heart an individual completion. And there’s a sporting logic to the Ryder cup teams (America v Europe), where it appears LIV will set up “random” teams.

[mikecee]

If the events aren't televised how are they going to attract sponsors?  I know the Saudi's are putting (no pun intended) in an eye-watering amount of money into this but they will want something back in return.

[daviemac]

I had a quick scan at the major changes compared to present main tournament set-ups.

In a nutshell: smaller fields, 3 day tournament as opposed to 4, no half way cut, and organising players into mini teams and giving team prize money as well as individual prizes.

I’m not sure the team aspect will work at all….yes obviously the Ryder Cup works, but that’s a very different set-up to normal tournament golf, which is at heart an individual completion. And there’s a sporting logic to the Ryder cup teams (America v Europe), where it appears LIV will set up “random” teams.

The Ryder cup is a bit of an oddball, there's no prize money and it's played using different formats to the strokeplay PGA tour. Teams play fourball and foresomes then singles play matchplay. LIV is different again with a slightly different scoring system over 54 holes and the shotgun start, oh and prize money.

Cricket has survived the introduction of different variations of the game with the white ball limited over matches etc. Football adapted to the premier league and the different variations of European competitions, is there any reason golf shouldn't adapt and progress in a similar manner.   

[mikecee]

The Ryder cup is a bit of an oddball, there's no prize money and it's played using different formats to the strokeplay PGA tour. Teams play fourball and foresomes then singles play matchplay. LIV is different again with a slightly different scoring system over 54 holes and the shotgun start, oh and prize money.

Cricket has survived the introduction of different variations of the game with the white ball limited over matches etc. Football adapted to the premier league and the different variations of European competitions, is there any reason golf shouldn't adapt and progress in a similar manner.   

Shotgun start?

[daviemac]

Shotgun start?

There's players at every hole and tee off at the same time, they don't all start at the first tee, so they all start and finish at the same time. That way the whole round only takes as long as one player would.

[chrishornx]

There's players at every hole and tee off at the same time, they don't all start at the first tee, so they all start and finish at the same time. That way the whole round only takes as long as one player would.

Hence LIV

[mikecee]

There's players at every hole and tee off at the same time, they don't all start at the first tee, so they all start and finish at the same time. That way the whole round only takes as long as one player would.

Played a bit of golf in my younger days but that's a new one on me. Thanks 

[daviemac]

Hence LIV

Roman numerals for 54.

[Gordon Bennett]

Not only world series cricket but the rebel tours of South Africa in the 70's / 80's.

The Darts shift from the BDO.

And the Premier League was a rebel move away from Football League.

The key is...will there be an audience. And can the audience be monetised to make the investment (and hassle) worthwhile.

It was the threat of the audience not following that put the mockers on the European Super League, at least for now.

There were golf tournaments in Sun City in the past. I remember Ian Woosnam getting flak for playing there. His response was simple: I play wherever the money is.

Nothing new with professional sportspeople following the cash. I don't closely follow golf but someone like Rory McIlroy must be earning far more from appearance money than he is from prize money over past several years. It's obvious that the 97% of golfers who don't trouble the leaderboards of the big competitions would be very interested in LIV or any non-sanctioned tournament that offers a fat pay-day.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Sponsor are not making a profit

how does it make Boycott's highlights look gripping?

Just saying I find golf boring as a spectator sport so I couldn't see the economic sense in throwing that amount of money at it.
Maybe I'm wrong and the demographic it's aimed at are affluent middle aged men

[suttonporksword]

The Ryder cup is a bit of an oddball, there's no prize money and it's played using different formats to the strokeplay PGA tour. Teams play fourball and foresomes then singles play matchplay. LIV is different again with a slightly different scoring system over 54 holes and the shotgun start, oh and prize money.

Cricket has survived the introduction of different variations of the game with the white ball limited over matches etc. Football adapted to the premier league and the different variations of European competitions, is there any reason golf shouldn't adapt and progress in a similar manner.   

because it, for example IPL was organised around existing events and didnt involve top players walking away from their contracts which is what is happening here, this isnt aiming to improve the game or the spectacle, its just showing a bunch of mercenaries for what they are. good luck to them but i think they will regret their decision in the long term. Phil Mickleson is a complete wanker, liar and hypocrit so pretty pleased he wont be on the PGA tour, lets hope they get banned from the majors too.

[daviemac]

because it, for example IPL was organised around existing events and didnt involve top players walking away from their contracts which is what is happening here, this isnt aiming to improve the game or the spectacle, its just showing a bunch of mercenaries for what they are. good luck to them but i think they will regret their decision in the long term. Phil Mickleson is a complete wanker, liar and hypocrit so pretty pleased he wont be on the PGA tour, lets hope they get banned from the majors too.

What contracts do pro golfers have, apart from maybe contracts with sponsors. They aren't contracted to the PGA. Of course the fewer PGA tournaments they play the further down the ranking they go.

[chrishornx]

What contracts do pro golfers have, apart from maybe contracts with sponsors. They aren't contracted to the PGA. Of course the fewer PGA tournaments they play the further down the ranking they go.

 The players are “independent contractors” .Nevertheless when they sign up and accept a PGA Tour card, they make a commitment to play on PGA Tour events and to abide by the tour regulations. IF there is another tournament that is directly opposite a PGA Tour event, a player must ask permission to receive clearance by the PGA to play in that tournament, as is the situation in this instance. Players are allowed to do that for up to three events and they must play a minimum of 15 events to maintain their PGA Tour card.

The tour card does a great deal for the players. It allows them to participate in a pension program, grants them access to major tournaments around the world that are sanctioned by the PGA, and earns them nice sponsorship money for their efforts (event the lowest ranked player on the PGA Tour has a minimal sponsorship from clubs, balls, footwear, etc.

if there was no relationship between the players and the tours they would not need to ask permission to play in the LIV events

[daviemac]

The players are “independent contractors” .Nevertheless when they sign up and accept a PGA Tour card, they make a commitment to play on PGA Tour events and to abide by the tour regulations. IF there is another tournament that is directly opposite a PGA Tour event, a player must ask permission to receive clearance by the PGA to play in that tournament, as is the situation in this instance. Players are allowed to do that for up to three events and they must play a minimum of 15 events to maintain their PGA Tour card.

The tour card does a great deal for the players. It allows them to participate in a pension program, grants them access to major tournaments around the world that are sanctioned by the PGA, and earns them nice sponsorship money for their efforts (event the lowest ranked player on the PGA Tour has a minimal sponsorship from clubs, balls, footwear, etc.

if there was no relationship between the players and the tours they would not need to ask permission to play in the LIV events

Having to play a given number of tournaments in order to maintain a membership of an organisation is different to being contracted to that organisation.

There's about 50 events pro golfers can play in and they can select any ones they wish as long as they make up the relevant number.

It does get a little more complicated as some pros have to add extra tournaments to their quota in certain circumstances.

[suttonporksword]

Ok I accept the word contract was incorrect, but they have lost their entitlement to play which in effect is like tearing up a contract. Be interesting to see what their sponsors make of their decision given the lack of tv audience and exposure of their products. Even justin Thomas might get new clothing sponsors if those on LIV lose their deals

[chrishornx]

Having to play a given number of tournaments in order to maintain a membership of an organisation is different to being contracted to that organisation.

There's about 50 events pro golfers can play in and they can select any ones they wish as long as they make up the relevant number.

It does get a little more complicated as some pros have to add extra tournaments to their quota in certain circumstances.

exactly as I  said they are not contracted but have to abide by the regulations

there are well over a 100 events for pro golfers

[smiths]

There were golf tournaments in Sun City in the past. I remember Ian Woosnam getting flak for playing there. His response was simple: I play wherever the money is.

Nothing new with professional sportspeople following the cash. I don't closely follow golf but someone like Rory McIlroy must be earning far more from appearance money than he is from prize money over past several years. It's obvious that the 97% of golfers who don't trouble the leaderboards of the big competitions would be very interested in LIV or any non-sanctioned tournament that offers a fat pay-day.

I recall the criticism Woosnam and others got for playing in Sun City, to me that was a human rights matter whereas this is about the existing tour wanting to impose their power over players, who are free agents. 

If a player wants to play just to make money good for them BUT they wont be recognised as great golfers unless they win Majors which i assume they wont be able to play in at least for now. Seems a fair situation, they can make mega bucks, even more than they could on the tour but cant play at Majors, so for a player capable of maybe winning a Major its a bigger deal than someone like Mickelson who is on the way down as i see it. The enormous signing on fee makes it a no brainer to me. His past record of winning Majors stands of course. DeCham whatever his name is may live to regret doing this as he could win more Majors but thats his business. There is nothing wrong with these players being greedy to make as much as they can in my view. The added thing here is its Saudi backed but the players know that.

I would guess that if LIV flops those signed up would be allowed back on the tour, maybe with a temporary ban as punishment.

[tp69]

Ok I accept the word contract was incorrect, but they have lost their entitlement to play which in effect is like tearing up a contract. Be interesting to see what their sponsors make of their decision given the lack of tv audience and exposure of their products. Even justin Thomas might get new clothing sponsors if those on LIV lose their deals

DJ has lost a couple sponsors already. He's not likely to struggle to find others if the event is in any way popular. Probably doesn't need them anyway given the cash on offer and far easier field to get through.

[Nickp]

Surely watching these exhibitions is pretty pointless as the tournaments have no real end prize apart from money.

It's like Mayweather proxy exhibition fights. Pointless, I'm glad no TV channels were interested in the rights. I'm not a Mirror reader but their journalist was pure gold quizzing the players!