SAS, revision of David Stirling

[RedKettle]

I like several others on here am something of a WW2 nerd, started I think by growing up with the classic war films on a Sunday afternoon. This may be too niche for a thread on here but what the hell.

I have always believed that Major David Stirling was the creative force behind the SAS and was a true British hero. Now there is a revisionist history book out by Gavin Mortimer that seems to set out a convincing case that he was actually pretty useless and the credit belongs to his brother Bill and also Paddy Mayne. Undermines one of my core WW2 beliefs!

So far I have only listened to an interview with him, by Dan Snow on the history hit podcast series. I would love to know if anyone has read the book and whether it is worth reading?

[timsussex]

I like several others on here am something of a WW2 nerd, started I think by growing up with the classic war films on a Sunday afternoon. This may be too niche for a thread on here but what the hell.

I have always believed that Major David Stirling was the creative force behind the SAS and was a true British hero. Now there is a revisionist history book out by Gavin Mortimer that seems to set out a convincing case that he was actually pretty useless and the credit belongs to his brother Bill and also Paddy Mayne. Undermines one of my core WW2 beliefs!

So far I have only listened to an interview with him, by Dan Snow on the history hit podcast series. I would love to know if anyone has read the book and whether it is worth reading?

Not read the book but there is little doubt that Paddy Mayne was - and I say this with the greatest admiration and respect - an absolute animal. He would probably fail any serious psychological testing but you need those people in wartime

[RedKettle]

Not read the book but there is little doubt that Paddy Mayne was - and I say this with the greatest admiration and respect - an absolute animal. He would probably fail any serious psychological testing but you need those people in wartime

Yes some of his own men were scared of him!

[Don Quixote]

Mayne was renowned for his pathological hatred of Germans and his absolute delight in killing them.

[RedKettle]

Mayne was renowned for his pathological hatred of Germans and his absolute delight in killing them.

One of the accusations in the book, I believe, is that David Stirling rewrote SAS history after Paddy died in the 1950s. In particular to change the narrative around Paddy and of course to build up his own role. Not sure if that includes the more blood thirsty nature of Paddy? Guess I need to buy the book! Which would be the purpose of the interview.

[spiralnotebook]

Mayne was renowned for his pathological hatred of Germans and his absolute delight in killing them.

Good job he didn’t meet the royal family then.

 

[badsin]

There's a series of documentaries from Adam Curtis (from the late 90's I think) called the The Mayfair set, the first one being David Sterling's influence in rebuilding British influence after the second World War. External Link/Members Only

Not completely on topic, but well worth a watch 

[scutty brown]

Don't forget Stirling was one of the leaders of the coup plot in the 1970's against Harold Wilson. MI5's Peter "Spycatcher" Wright was involved, and the finance came from John Aspinwall and his Mayfair casino buddies.
The story is they approached Lord Mountbatten to become the coup figurehead, asking him to liaise with Prince Philip - but Mountbatten told them to fuck off, so ending the plot.

[badsin]

I believe that was The Clarendon Club, wasn't Lord Lucan also a member?

[scutty brown]

I believe that was The Clarendon Club, wasn't Lord Lucan also a member?

Yes he was

[RedKettle]

There's a series of documentaries from Adam Curtis (from the late 90's I think) called the The Mayfair set, the first one being David Sterling's influence in rebuilding British influence after the second World War. External Link/Members Only

Not completely on topic, but well worth a watch 

Cheers

[RedKettle]

Don't forget Stirling was one of the leaders of the coup plot in the 1970's against Harold Wilson. MI5's Peter "Spycatcher" Wright was involved, and the finance came from John Aspinwall and his Mayfair casino buddies.
The story is they approached Lord Mountbatten to become the coup figurehead, asking him to liaise with Prince Philip - but Mountbatten told them to fuck off, so ending the plot.

Not heard that. Or more likely these days I did hear it but now forgotten!

[scutty brown]

the Mail have done a precis of the book
External Link/Members Only

[RedKettle]

the Mail have done a precis of the book
External Link/Members Only

Thanks very interesting. Not sure I am bothered enough to actually buy the book!!!! It is fascinating how the apparent fiction became such a strong story going down generations.

[badsin]

Again similar to my previous post, being a slight tangent to the thread. Shouldn't disregard the importance of the long range desert group In the successes of the early missions of the sas (not the first one obviously when 60+ men were lost after parachute jumping in a sand storm) which was a Sterling error. Sterling did then utilise the LRDG, to get to the targets, and withdraw.

There was a series around 14 years ago, called SAS the originals, narrated by colonel Tim Collins. With interviews from the 1980's of former original members, I can't remember any of them questioning Sterling's role.
Great series, which I think is on YouTube 

[RedKettle]

Again similar to my previous post, being a slight tangent to the thread. Shouldn't disregard the importance of the long range desert group In the successes of the early missions of the sas (not the first one obviously when 60+ men were lost after parachute jumping in a sand storm) which was a Sterling error. Sterling did then utilise the LRDG, to get to the targets, and withdraw.

There was a series around 14 years ago, called SAS the originals, narrated by colonel Tim Collins. With interviews from the 1980's of former original members, I can't remember any of them questioning Sterling's role.
Great series, which I think is on YouTube 

Agree about the LRDG, fantastic navigators in the desert and specialised in recon. It was Paddy Mayne who made the link with them!

[timsussex]

a bit off topic but the Times has a brilliant obituary of Sandhurst  sergeant major Ray Huggins who died age 92 after he turned down a commission in the Guards. In his 10 year reign as the senior WO in the British Army was responsible for moulding 5471 cadets into Officers and Gentlemen.  He revelled in the power he held over these junior officers  even though he didnt hold a commission

a few gems from  the article and reminisces

"You have to salute me and I have to salute you  Sir - but you have to mean it "

 “Gentlemen, I would not wear jeans to do my gardening in, and I never want to see any of you wearing them either.”

"Listen you 'orrible little man, a lady officer is addressed as  "Ma'am" and not "Madam" because a "Madam" is a creature wot runs a house of ill fame!!!!! Gettit? Gottit? Good."

When King Hussein of Jordan was a cadet
 "Who's an idle little king this morning  - sah!"