The Politics Thread

[Squire Haggard]

Yes, BR has summed up the situation very well.

Sir Wanker was asked at a recent PMQs how many gangs he has smashed and boats he has stopped.

He ducked the question.

Over 1500 arrived in small boats last week. By this time next week we'll likely see another 2000+ arrive.

External Link/Members Only

External Link/Members Only

EU parliament vote could mean less or no small boats in future. A ray of hope.
External Link/Members Only

[Jerboa]

It's estimated that Russia has lost over 500,000 military personnel with talk of another round of conscription

Where is that figure from? estimating true casualty figures in a war is as tricky as herding cats. One source that estimates casualties is Medizona who are a anti Kremlin outfit, their figure is under 230k
External Link/Members Only What do you think the casualty figures for Ukraine are? Why are European countries discussing ways they could deport Ukrainian men aged 22-65 back to Ukraine?
As for conscription in Russia, there is a misunderstanding, conscription in Russia is a general national service, men aged 18-30 are expected to serve 12 months in the military. None of these conscripts are allowed to participate in the SMO, they serve all over the country. If you mean mobilisation, this is when trained military reservists are called up back to their units.

[DastardlyDick]

Where is that figure from? estimating true casualty figures in a war is as tricky as herding cats. One source that estimates casualties is Medizona who are a anti Kremlin outfit, their figure is under 230k
External Link/Members Only What do you think the casualty figures for Ukraine are? Why are European countries discussing ways they could deport Ukrainian men aged 22-65 back to Ukraine?
As for conscription in Russia, there is a misunderstanding, conscription in Russia is a general national service, men aged 18-30 are expected to serve 12 months in the military. None of these conscripts are allowed to participate in the SMO, they serve all over the country. If you mean mobilisation, this is when trained military reservists are called up back to their units.

Here's the link External Link/Members Only  As you can see, it's from May, so presumably they're higher now.
I take your point about conscription vs mobilisation but the Law around conscription has been changed External Link/Members Only and I doubt that the official line of not deploying conscripts to War zones is adhered to - after all, according to the Authorities, it's not a War.

[Snagbadjer]

And what would that agreement with Russia look like?

Not for me to say. But do you agree an agreement needs to be sought?

[Snagbadjer]

He's mentioned it - the man's a serial liar and you expect someone to believe him?

TR may be a serial liar. But I think he's right about the Pakistani rape gangs. Don't you?

[Jerboa]

Here's the link External Link/Members Only  As you can see, it's from May, so presumably they're higher now.
I take your point about conscription vs mobilisation but the Law around conscription has been changed External Link/Members Only and I doubt that the official line of not deploying conscripts to War zones is adhered to - after all, according to the Authorities, it's not a War.

I don't believe GCHQ as I don't believe UKR MoD, who post fantastical figures, as of now they claim 1.39 million Russian KIA. In your BBC article they mentioned 223k that's the Mediazona/BBC research I mentioned.
At the beginning of the SMO in 2022 some conscripts were part of the operation, there was criticism and the MoD ordered this not occur again, back in Ukraine's Kursk offensive in 2024 Russian conscripts were in the oblast and took part in defence.

[DastardlyDick]

Not for me to say. But do you agree an agreement needs to be sought?

Obviously, an agreement is needed - the military casualty rate (on both sides) is appalling by any standard - over 500,000 on the Russian side compared to WW2 which cost the Soviet Union 8.7 million.

[Jerboa]

Obviously, an agreement is needed - the military casualty rate (on both sides) is appalling by any standard - over 500,000 on the Russian side compared to WW2 which cost the Soviet Union 8.7 million.

The Soviet Union suffered an estimated 26 to 27 million total casualties during World War II.

[finn5555]

Obviously, an agreement is needed - the military casualty rate (on both sides) is appalling by any standard - over 500,000 on the Russian side compared to WW2 which cost the Soviet Union 8.7 million.

No body knows the true figure other than Russia and Ukraine 

[Blackpool Rock]

The Soviet Union suffered an estimated 26 to 27 million total casualties during World War II.

Mostly Russians killed / murdered in one way or another by Stalin, Russian leaders are never scared to throw bodies into the meat grinder 

[Blackpool Rock]

Just been on the news that Trump has posted on "Truth" social that Starmer is going to resign, well perhaps he's had a heads up but even if he has doesn't it just show what a total lack of class this prick has in announcing it rather than letting him do it himself 

[Snagbadjer]

Where is that figure from? estimating true casualty figures in a war is as tricky as herding cats. One source that estimates casualties is Medizona who are a anti Kremlin outfit, their figure is under 230k
External Link/Members Only What do you think the casualty figures for Ukraine are? Why are European countries discussing ways they could deport Ukrainian men aged 22-65 back to Ukraine?
As for conscription in Russia, there is a misunderstanding, conscription in Russia is a general national service, men aged 18-30 are expected to serve 12 months in the military. None of these conscripts are allowed to participate in the SMO, they serve all over the country. If you mean mobilisation, this is when trained military reservists are called up back to their units.

Reuters reported that ~860,000 military-age Ukrainian men had left Ukraine and were living elsewhere in Europe, mostly in Germany but also in Poland and the Czech Republic.

According to Wiki (take with a pinch of salt), 90% of Ukrainian refugees are in European countries. The rest are in the USA, Canada, and Israel.

[Snagbadjer]

Just been on the news that Trump has posted on "Truth" social that Starmer is going to resign, well perhaps he's had a heads up but even if he has doesn't it just show what a total lack of class this prick has in announcing it rather than letting him do it himself 

Trolling Starmlin to the end. Love it.

[finn5555]

Just been on the news that Trump has posted on "Truth" social that Starmer is going to resign, well perhaps he's had a heads up but even if he has doesn't it just show what a total lack of class this prick has in announcing it rather than letting him do it himself 

Been talked about in parliament since Thursday that he may announce his exit plan Monday

As for Trump he’s just a cunt 

[scutty brown]

The Soviet Union suffered an estimated 26 to 27 million total casualties during World War II.

But a good third or more was due to Stalin's purges, extermination campaigns and forced population moves

[Jerboa]

Mostly Russians killed / murdered in one way or another by Stalin, Russian leaders are never scared to throw bodies into the meat grinder 

The Red army were responsible for 75%-80% of all Wehrmacht casualties

[Snagbadjer]

Been talked about in parliament since Thursday that he may announce his exit plan Monday

As for Trump he’s just a cunt 

More insults today, Findog? But just "cunt"? That the best offering?

How is English Rebecca? Do you still get symptoms of EAS when you think of her and the Flame War you lost to "J999"?

[Snagbadjer]

But a good third or more was due to Stalin's purges, extermination campaigns and forced population moves

Those aren't included in WW2 Soviet deaths. 

[finn5555]

More insults today, Findog? But just "cunt"? That the best offering?

How is English Rebecca? Do you still get symptoms of EAS when you think of her and the Flame War you lost to "J999"?

I have been ignoring you as you’re clearly an idiot which has been pointed out by others. So this is my last statement to you fuck off and pester someone else your repetition of false facts and boring comments are at best tedious.

I am really not bothered by your infantile comments towards me 

Feel free to reply (as you can’t help yourself)

I am done with twats like you 



Edit: he can’t reply he is having a little sabbatical 

[scutty brown]

Those aren't included in WW2 Soviet deaths.

oh yes they are...

[Thephoenix]

More insults today, Findog? But just "cunt"? That the best offering?

How is English Rebecca? Do you still get symptoms of EAS when you think of her and the Flame War you lost to "J999"?

Excuse me chum!

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I can't see how  posting stuff like this is adding anything of value to any meaningful, grown up political debate.

......or is that the level of discourse we've now reached in this section? 

[DastardlyDick]

The Soviet Union suffered an estimated 26 to 27 million total casualties during World War II.

That includes Civilians - I was quoting Military casualties onl.

[DastardlyDick]

TR may be a serial liar. But I think he's right about the Pakistani rape gangs. Don't you?

I believe they exist, just as I believe that there are sexual abusers from other backgrounds in existance.

[Blackpool Rock]

I have been ignoring you as you’re clearly an idiot which has been pointed out by others. So this is my last statement to you fuck off and pester someone else your repetition of false facts and boring comments are at best tedious.

I am really not bothered by your infantile comments towards me 

Feel free to reply (as you can’t help yourself)

I am done with twats like you 



Edit: he can’t reply he is having a little sabbatical 

Can't remember if it was you or Doc who posted yesterday that he's only started posting like this recently 

Indeed I had noticed this myself and looked back at his posts to see that while he may have previously posted on the Politic thread he seemed to suddenly bombard the thread (and others to a lesser extent like the TR thread) with fairly childish and purile comments and insults, i'm wondering if his account has been hacked or as Doc (I think) posted whether he has some sort of issue at present 

Despite on more than one occasion saying he was backing away from the thread he kept coming back like a moth to a flame, there was some contrition after the Mods put up a couple of warnings but then again he couldn't help himself.

Very strange indeed as he's been a member for a long time and never been on my radar until a couple of weeks ago, also a shame that a good reviewer gets banned albeit a temporary ban and hopefully he will sort himself out as reviews are the lifeblood of the site so it would be a shame to lose that.

Who would want to be a MOD as it's a thankless task 

[Thephoenix]

Excellent post. 

That's where we are and how we've got here.

I think Mr Average Joe can see what's happened.

Unfortunately, there's been so many lies and so much distrust of the main political parties and their leaders over the immigration issue that Mr Joe Average doesn't know who to trust to resolve the issue.

[scutty brown]

Excuse me chum!

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I can't see how  posting stuff like this is adding anything of value to any meaningful, grown up political debate.

......or is that the level of discourse we've now reached in this section? 

no you're not the only one
looks like we're reverting back to the vomit ridden days of 999 Redcab and Nik
thought we'd got rid of all that crap

[finn5555]

Can't remember if it was you or Doc who posted yesterday that he's only started posting like this recently 

Indeed I had noticed this myself and looked back at his posts to see that while he may have previously posted on the Politic thread he seemed to suddenly bombard the thread (and others to a lesser extent like the TR thread) with fairly childish and purile comments and insults, i'm wondering if his account has been hacked or as Doc (I think) posted whether he has some sort of issue at present 

Despite on more than one occasion saying he was backing away from the thread he kept coming back like a moth to a flame, there was some contrition after the Mods put up a couple of warnings but then again he couldn't help himself.

Very strange indeed as he's been a member for a long time and never been on my radar until a couple of weeks ago, also a shame that a good reviewer gets banned albeit a temporary ban and hopefully he will sort himself out as reviews are the lifeblood of the site so it would be a shame to lose that.

Who would want to be a MOD as it's a thankless task 

I totally agree with you on all of the above. I wouldn’t want to see him banned either as we need guys who add to the forum like he was doing until he lost the plot. We definitely don’t see eye to eye on many topics just the same as I don’t with others on here. But that’s life if we all agreed and liked the same things what a boring and sanitised world we would live in. 

Banging on at me about ER etc got so tedious I chose to ignore it. Not least as I also don’t want to break any rules.

I think somewhere he claimed to be ex military (could be bollocks of course) but maybe he has PTSD or something similar, either way hopefully the break will bring the better fella back not the one we have had the last few days 

[Vice Admiral]

That's a very good graphic, thanks 

It also demonstrates exactly what I said would happen regarding immigration PRIOR to the EU referendum in that if businesses needed to hire people from outside the UK then they'd still hire them however you'd just get less EU workers coming here and more from the 4 corners of various shitholes with customs / lifestyles / cultures which don't fit with British Traditional values nearly so well.

The Poles etc came here and most of them speak English very well, their basic culture is the same or at least very similar to ours and they fitted in pretty well, going out with work colleagues in a group was never a problem if there were Poles; Hungarians; Ukrainians etc as they'd join in and were happy to have a few beers with the rest of us.

Many (i'd say the vast majority from what I saw) of the EU workers who came were fit young people full of ambition and enthusiasm, many came over with friends / partners for support, some came to send money back home and support family which is fair enough but they didn't get a job in the NHS and then bring over decrepit Mum; Dad; Gran; Grandad; 5 kids and fuck knows who else none of which could speak English and all who ended up needing housing and benefits and relying on the NHS to patch them up (AKA The Boris Wave) 

Some of the EU workers settled but many also returned home after 2-5 years whereas the Non EU ones have no reason to go back home to their shithole when they can stay in the UK FOC on benefits with a nice house etc

When I argue against Farage and Brexit people lazily jump to the conclusion that i'm Pro immigration or rather mass uncontrolled immigration and open borders etc but the fact is that i'm not, I am however able to stand back and accept that we do need some (SOME) immigration but that it needs to be controlled and far far lower than we've seen for decades now.
I'm also able to look through the fog of bullshit from the likes of Farage & Co to understand that they are actually the biggest cause of the recent issues, what beggars belief is that others can't see this and still want to vote for this guy who lied and promised them so much yet failed to deliver on his promise 

To Blackpool Rock's excellent post of this morning, I would add this.

Others may be better informed than me about the practical, logistical and legal difficulties in limiting immigration or removing illegal immigrants.  However my understanding of the matter is that, if Reform UK came to power, they would be likely to have no more success than any other government in either respect.

Nonetheless, a significant proportion – possibly most – of Reform UK’s adherents almost certainly support the party largely because they erroneously believe that it has a magic bullet to deal with excess immigration.

I even suspect that quite a lot of Brexit supporters thought, in some muddled way, that a vote for Brexit would mean there would be fewer “tinted” immigrants (to use the late Dame Edna Everage’s terminology) into the UK – as if Bangladesh, Nigeria and Indonesia were members of the European Union.  Just as Australia participates in the Eurovision Song Contest.

[finn5555]

Ok been reliably informed Starmer will announce his exit plan Tuesday and Wes Streeting will be chancellor under Burnham.

[finn5555]

no you're not the only one
looks like we're reverting back to the vomit ridden days of 999 Redcab and Nik
thought we'd got rid of all that crap

You planted the ER seed in his head 🤣🤣🤣

[Jerboa]

I even suspect that quite a lot of Brexit supporters thought, in some muddled way, that a vote for Brexit would mean there would be fewer “tinted” immigrants (to use the late Dame Edna Everage’s terminology) into the UK – as if Bangladesh, Nigeria and Indonesia were members of the European Union.  Just as Australia participates in the Eurovision Song Contest.

You're being a little patronising IMO, most Brexit voters understand who is in the EUSSR. Every government for the last 20 years promised to reduce mass migration, they lied, took the piss, and even after the vote tried to sabotage it.
Then BoJo the traitor showed his true colours with the Boris wave.

[Blackpool Rock]

To Blackpool Rock's excellent post of this morning, I would add this.

Others may be better informed than me about the practical, logistical and legal difficulties in limiting immigration or removing illegal immigrants.  However my understanding of the matter is that, if Reform UK came to power, they would be likely to have no more success than any other government in either respect.

Nonetheless, a significant proportion – possibly most – of Reform UK’s adherents almost certainly support the party largely because they erroneously believe that it has a magic bullet to deal with excess immigration.

I even suspect that quite a lot of Brexit supporters thought, in some muddled way, that a vote for Brexit would mean there would be fewer “tinted” immigrants (to use the late Dame Edna Everage’s terminology) into the UK – as if Bangladesh, Nigeria and Indonesia were members of the European Union.  Just as Australia participates in the Eurovision Song Contest.

This is the thing that again I think many people are under the impression that within a very short space of time 1000's of people a day will be sent packing however I believe it requires us to leave the European court of human rights which will take some time if it's actually possible / voted through or whatever.

It will actually require a massive scaling up of the entire operation which will cost a lot of money, Ok so you could argue that you then save money in the longer term however and this is a key point -

Deportations require the receiving country to accept the return of their citizens and countries often refuse to accept enforced deportations without diplomatic agreements.
I'm not exactly sure whether a person from say Nigeria who actually came from France would be returned to Nigeria or France 
What i'm confident about however is that if Reform got in and left the ECHR then France would tell us to fuck off regarding accepting anyone back, additionally any current measures trying to stop people crossing would be out the window and i'm also thinking they may well round up illegals throughout France and point them in our direction

Regarding country of birth if as is claimed so many of them ditch their passports and papers etc and then refuse to say where they are from then i'm not sure how you return them to the country but if they are also murderers / various criminals (again as we're led to believe) then surely their own country will say we don't want them and you can keep them.

Ok so i've just found this which is almost a year old but does seem to be what Farage is or was proposing, it then talks about the legalities etc

External Link/Members Only

[DastardlyDick]

You're being a little patronising IMO, most Brexit voters understand who is in the EUSSR. Every government for the last 20 years promised to reduce mass migration, they lied, took the piss, and even after the vote tried to sabotage it.
Then BoJo the traitor showed his true colours with the Boris wave.

x
Basically, we need foreign workers to do the work that locals won't or in some cases, can't, do. By leaving the EU we've had to swap swap mainly Caucasians for people of ethnicity's.
We've also, as a society, demanded the lowest prices for everything, people are the biggest cost to a business, so employers are having to take whoever will work for our minimum wage to turn a profit for their shareholders, which may be,the big financial institutions that pay our pensions.

[Rexgarvin]

Yep...totally agree.

[scutty brown]

You planted the ER seed in his head 🤣🤣🤣

Should we start a campaign to bring her back? It was always fun when she posted

[Thephoenix]

x
Basically, we need foreign workers to do the work that locals won't or in some cases, can't, do. By leaving the EU we've had to swap swap mainly Caucasians for people of ethnicity's.
We've also, as a society, demanded the lowest prices for everything, people are the biggest cost to a business, so employers are having to take whoever will work for our minimum wage to turn a profit for their shareholders, which may be,the big financial institutions that pay our pensions.

In all the hullabaloo, it's easy to forget that the government produced a white paper in January in an attempt to deal with these issues entitled 'Restoring Control Over The Immigration System'

It's worth reading:
External Link/Members Only

[Vice Admiral]

Others may be better informed than me about the practical, logistical and legal difficulties in limiting immigration or removing illegal immigrants.  However my understanding of the matter is that, if Reform UK came to power, they would be likely to have no more success than any other government in either respect.

This is the thing that again I think many people are under the impression that within a very short space of time 1000's of people a day will be sent packing however I believe it requires us to leave the European court of human rights which will take some time if it's actually possible / voted through or whatever.

It will actually require a massive scaling up of the entire operation which will cost a lot of money, Ok so you could argue that you then save money in the longer term however and this is a key point -

Deportations require the receiving country to accept the return of their citizens and countries often refuse to accept enforced deportations without diplomatic agreements.
I'm not exactly sure whether a person from say Nigeria who actually came from France would be returned to Nigeria or France 
What i'm confident about however is that if Reform got in and left the ECHR then France would tell us to fuck off regarding accepting anyone back, additionally any current measures trying to stop people crossing would be out the window and i'm also thinking they may well round up illegals throughout France and point them in our direction

Regarding country of birth if as is claimed so many of them ditch their passports and papers etc and then refuse to say where they are from then i'm not sure how you return them to the country but if they are also murderers / various criminals (again as we're led to believe) then surely their own country will say we don't want them and you can keep them.

Ok so i've just found this which is almost a year old but does seem to be what Farage is or was proposing, it then talks about the legalities etc

External Link/Members Only

Thank you for that cogent – but depressing – analysis.

Was it always the case that a certain amount of charisma and plausibility – and a lot of empty words – have been able to persuade large swathes of the British electorate that some self-appointed Messiah (Johnson, Farage, now Burnham) will be able to sort out the nation's most intractable problems?

Or were we were less susceptible to snake-oil salesmen 25 or 30 years ago?

[Blackpool Rock]

Thank you for that cogent – but depressing – analysis.

Was it always the case that a certain amount of charisma and plausibility – and a lot of empty words – have been able to persuade large swathes of the British electorate that some self-appointed Messiah (Johnson, Farage, now Burnham) will be able to sort out the nation's most intractable problems?

Or were we were less susceptible to snake-oil salesmen 25 or 30 years ago?

I do think it helps if someone is a fairly good orator as people tend to sit up and actually listen to what they are saying and are then more likely to be carried along with the message whether or not it's right or wrong

Off the top of my head PM's who were "Heard" when they spoke include -

Thatcher - Yes
Major - No
Blair - Yes
Brown - No
Cameron - Neutral 
May - No
Bojo - Strangely Yes as IMO he was a shite orator and just blustered but somehow people thought it was funny (Not what i'm looking for in a PM)
Truss - Get the fuck out of town / Not in office long enough to have sufficient data 
Sunak - No
Starmer - Fuck No

Burnham - Well he certainly likes the sound of his own voice and when he was previously an MP was always very outspoken / never shut the fuck up, I don't see that changing

Farage / Tice - Both of these speak clearly and always seem to have answers to any question to hand, at least you're never in doubt about their stance on anything 

[Blackpool Rock]

Well the lectern is out, Starmer about to make an announcement, wonder what on earth this could be 

[bigden40]

Be glad to see the back of him, but not looking forward to what comes next.

And what a word salad of bullshit that statement was.

[Blackpool Rock]

He's Gone but can the next person do any better 

IMO he's been treated a bit shittily by his party 

What is it with the protester playing loud music so it's hard to hear what's being said, OK so perhaps a democratic protest but surely also undemocratic if you can't hear what's being said 
I'm sure years ago the police would have "Shut this shit down" and worried about the consequences later, not that there would have been any but these days everyone has rights and there would have been dozens of people there to record it on their phones 

Is this the same guy who plays loud music seemingly whenever there's an important announcement going on 

[Blackpool Rock]

Be glad to see the back of him, but not looking forward to what comes next.

And what a word salad of bullshit that statement was.

Well yes it's a case of be careful what you wish for

[mr.bluesky]

Be glad to see the back of him, but not looking forward to what comes next.

And what a word salad of bullshit that statement was.

Just a new lunatic running the asylum  need to get rid of a few more of Starmers cabinet.

[Blackpool Rock]

I posted before that despite his legal background Starmer never seemed to run rings round his opposition, I mean bumbling blustering Bojo was there for the taking with a few witty quips but he never really landed any major punches.

Effectively he's perhaps not outspoken enough and never "Took the fight" to the opposition, I can see Burnham properly taking the fight to the opposition which may actually make him popular with the public as we don't seem to like the wishy washy soft touch which in fairness was Starmer through and through

[bigden40]

Well yes it's a case of be careful what you wish for

Indeed. 

I have no faith that a Burnham government will change anything for the better. The problem isn’t just Starmer, it’s the underlying policies and Burnham's policy positions give me the fear!

I presume that there will be other challengers in this contest and it’s not a foregone conclusion that it will be Burnham?

And Andy doesn’t fill the charisma deficit in the slightest.

[bigden40]

I posted before that despite his legal background Starmer never seemed to run rings round his opposition, I mean bumbling blustering Bojo was there for the taking with a few witty quips but he never really landed any major punches.

Effectively he's perhaps not outspoken enough and never "Took the fight" to the opposition, I can see Burnham properly taking the fight to the opposition which may actually make him popular with the public as we don't seem to like the wishy washy soft touch which in fairness was Starmer through and through

Starmer never needed to take the fight to the opposition.  He has a fucking huge majority.

He just needed to be moderately competent and decisive. 

His government has pursued policies that are harming the UK, his top team have been utterly incompetent, and he has failed to deal with any of the issues and scandals that have arisen.

[Vice Admiral]

He's Gone but can the next person do any better 

IMO he's been treated a bit shittily by his party 

Starmer's not been a good Prime Minister at home, but he did well abroad.

The whole thing leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.  The main reason all this is happening is that a large number of Labour MPs believe – probably correctly – that they're more likely to keep their seats at the 2029 General Election under the upstart Burnham than under Starmer.  But it's not edifying.

Also, as I've several times said previously, the chances of Burnham being any better in terms of performance – as opposed to image – are not good, not least because he's more of a leftie than Starmer, and pandering to the left won't sort out the economy.

But perhaps he'll surprise us?

[bigden40]

Starmer's not been a good Prime Minister at home, but he did well abroad.

The whole thing leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.  The main reason all this is happening is that a large number of Labour MPs believe – probably correctly – that they're more likely to keep their seats at the 2029 General Election under the upstart Burnham than under Starmer.  But it's not edifying.

Also, as I've several times said previously, the chances of Burnham being any better in terms of performance – as opposed to image – are not good, not least because he's more of a leftie than Starmer, and pandering to the left won't sort out the economy.

But perhaps he'll surprise us?

Did he though?

[finn5555]

Did he though?

I think so to maybe spent to much time focusing overseas and not on problems at home.

Kept us out of a futile Iranian war mind you

[Blackpool Rock]

Indeed. 

I have no faith that a Burnham government will change anything for the better. The problem isn’t just Starmer, it’s the underlying policies and Burnham's policy positions give me the fear!

I presume that there will be other challengers in this contest and it’s not a foregone conclusion that it will be Burnham?

And Andy doesn’t fill the charisma deficit in the slightest.

Perhaps I heard more of Burnham a dacade ago as he is NW based so he was also constantly on the local news, i'm centre left and IMO he seemed to be quite far left to the point I took a dislike to him as he was quite Gobby (Think Angela Rayner) and I got the impression radical left / agitator / trouble maker, perhaps not as far left as Corbyn but certainly left field

I don't see what Burnham can do to turn things around that Starmer wasn't able to do, things were getting better slowly (IMO) considering the shit show 2 years ago when he took over but again IMO what's ham strung Starmer is sticking to the Tories spending commitments to get elected
If he'd got in power and then broken the spending commitments he would be accused of exactly that and "Tax and spend on welfare" etc but given the state of the nation IMO he should have borrowed to invest and kick start the economy / growth

I also think that Burnham won't have those same constraints and will be happy to say that it wasn't his manifesto therefore he's not going to be bound by it

I'm happy to borrow for investment and growth but i'm not happy to borrow to fund more welfare, unfortunately it's the ones on the left of the party like Burnham who scuppered the welfare reforms intended to cut costs so I don't see the bills going down, just up 

Assuming it is Burnham whose the next PM then as i've posted before i'll give him a fair trial and see what he actually does however my expectations aren't high