The Politics Thread

[Snagbadjer]

So 10 years on from the Brexit referendum it appears that the British economy is 6% worse off than had we stayed in, OK so as usual some people dispute the numbers and you can never say they are 100% correct however i'm not aware of any independent study concluding that we are even remotely better off

6% is a hell of a lot and let's face it if we'd have had a Farage style just pull the rug Brexit then we'd be even further in the shit

What pisses me off and continues to piss me off is how the likes of Farage have the brass neck to stand up and spout shite about how the economy isn't doing very well and we need more growth 
And Millions of thick cunts are still going to vote for him 

External Link/Members Only

The thick cunts are the ones who vote Labour or Green. But I agree Reform voters seem to REALLY get under your skin.

[Snagbadjer]

The general consensus now is that Ukraine isn't losing and at the very least is holding its own. Russia is no nearer to achieving its objectives than it was 4 years ago, although I don't expect the Putin fanboys to admit that.

They're losing. Barely any men left and are about to get nuked for attacking the Motherland.

[Snagbadjer]

There are a lot of folk like that, who seem to hate TR with such a passion, greater it would seem than the actual rapists.

Why do you think that is? Maybe some work in the child social services?

[Snagbadjer]

No-one likes to see death and / or destruction inflicted anywhere, but these Ukrainian attacks serve to remind Muscovites of the fact that they're in a war, and that it doesn't have an impact only on the other side, miles away:
External Link/Members Only

The photograph of the fire at the Kapotnya oil refinery, visible to motorists on the Moscow ring road, is a powerful image.

These strikes also provide a small amount of just retribution for the horrors that Putin has inflicted on the people of Ukraine.

You odn't get it. Attacking the Motherland is a no-no and now Russia are talking "tactical nukes". No need to call me names like "Putin stooge" as I admire both countries and would rather no more European Christian men are killed for some bs war.

[Blackpool Rock]

The thick cunts are the ones who vote Labour or Green. But I agree Reform voters seem to REALLY get under your skin.

The thick cunts on average were more likely to vote leave, that's already well know from fairly soon after the vote as they couldn't work out they were being lied to, unfortunately there are quite a few of these thick cunts who then regretted it but have now forgotten that they made a bad decision following Farage's lies and are seemingly now prepared to vote for him again 

 External Link/Members Only

[Jerboa]

The general consensus now is that Ukraine isn't losing and at the very least is holding its own. Russia is no nearer to achieving its objectives than it was 4 years ago, although I don't expect the Putin fanboys to admit that.

Is the general consensus in the room with you now? What does that actually mean? Western media prints nonsense, and then the public just swallow it.

Yeah there was an article on the news a few days ago saying Ukraine had indeed taken back small amounts of land, apparently they don't have nearly as many men on the ground in dangerous places but are sending in drones etc to do the hard work, Russia on the other hand as they are trying to advance and take more ground have to keep committing more and more men into "The Meat Grinder" 

This has already dragged on for longer than Russia fought the Nazi's in WW2 but Putin is too fucking stubborn to admit he's fucked up and the mission is a failure so he needs to get the fuck out

Even Trump knows he fucked up in Iran so has given himself an exit claiming a victory despite being no further forward than the day before he started bombing 

Still at least with the oil and gas prices on the way down it will start to fuck up Russia's ability to fund the war even more than it's currently struggling financially 

Ukraine taking a random piece of land is not a win. Ukraine's last general offensive was in summer 2023, and that ended in disaster, it was the high watermark for them.
Western media are focusing on Ukraine's drone strikes into Russia, it's good propaganda, it causes harm and local shortages of fuel, but it doesn't change anything strategically.

Why aren't they reporting from the front, particularly the Donbass? Right now Russian forces are mopping up in Lyman, which is a important lynchpin town NE of Slaviansk, it is approx 5 miles from the seversky donets river to Slaviansk.
And south of Kramatorsk Russian troops are enveloping the settlement of Konstantinovka, it holds strategic significance for Russia it is one of the fortress towns protecting the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk conurbation.
I actually follow the operational level battle on the fronts, following pro Russian & Ukrainian mappers. 

These Cities CANNOT Fall - Ukraine's Fight Save Lyman & Kostyantynivka External Link/Members Only
Kostiantynivka in Crisis: Catastrophic Losses as Worst-Case Scenario Unfolds External Link/Members Only
Moscow Still Burning Lyman Has Fallen External Link/Members Only

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[Snagbadjer]

The difference between expansion and contraction: America is making plans for its citizens to travel to Mars, whilst Britain is banning heated towel rails.

The anti-American feeling you see on here is a lot to do with jealousy. The US-haters know deep down that the UK is gone but America is still doing okay.

[Snagbadjer]

The general MSM *narrative* is that Ukraine is getting the better of Russia. The reality is different. Russia has suffered terrible losses but has taken over the east of Ukraine and has the nuke option. Ukraine's manpower is down to nothing. Ukraine will collapse the second it stops receiving American financial support (most going to Zelensky's Swiss bank account).

Trump was the only western leader to repeatedly say that he wants an end to these European men getting slaughtered on a mass scale. Naturally, this sensible stance provoked TDS fulminations and paroxysms of rage from his haters. You have to wonder what the cortisol levels are in these fools.

[finn5555]

The thick cunts are the ones who vote Labour or Green. But I agree Reform voters seem to REALLY get under your skin.

Reform voters by and large are like their candidates and local councillors deluded and thick as fuck 

[Snagbadjer]

Reform voters by and large are like their candidates and local councillors deluded and thick as fuck 

And yet no Reform candidate or local councillor is so deluded as to believe in open borders, men in women's toilets, or is thick enough to struggle to define what a woman is.

Sorry, chap - your side takes the crown for thickness and delusion.

[Jerboa]

Why do you think that is? Maybe some work in the child social services?

Because Tommy is a working class guy from Luton, notice how he is regarded compared to Douglas Murray, both have similar opinions, but Douglas has a educated voice and went to university, there is classism, Tommy can never be forgiven for being a football thug 20 years ago, or running the EDL, it's shoot the messenger, he was speaking out about gang rapists back in 2005 years before the EDL.

Some social workers and police need to be held accountable in a court of law, for their actions/inaction.

[Snagbadjer]

Because Tommy is a working class guy from Luton, notice how he is regarded compared to Douglas Murray, both have similar opinions, but Douglas has a educated voice and went to university, there is classism, Tommy can never be forgiven for being a football thug 20 years ago, or running the EDL, it's shoot the messenger, he was speaking out about gang rapists back in 2005 years before the EDL.

Some social workers and police need to be held accountable in a court of law, for their actions/inaction.

A lot of working class people hate him too. Like the simps on here who bang prostitutes and get on their high horses lol.

[finn5555]

And yet no Reform candidate or local councillor is so deluded as to believe in open borders, men in women's toilets, or is thick enough to struggle to define what a woman is.

Sorry, chap - your side takes the crown for thickness and delusion.

My side 

They will fix immigration so they claim, will never happen. Proposals to ban asylum seekers from settling and implementing mass deportations are legally and logistically unworkable for one thing.

As for trans, you fuck them but i guess you don't like to piss next to them 

[Jerboa]

A lot of working class people hate him too. Like the simps on here who bang prostitutes and get on their high horses lol.

I would suggest it's a small loud minority, of leftists who a programmed to hate anyone right of Corbyn, and the minority of the public who watch BBC programming, and believe everything it feeds them. And just in case they didn't know his real name is Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. 

[maxxblue]

Ukraine will collapse the second it stops receiving American financial support (most going to Zelensky's Swiss bank account).

Evidence? 

[Snagbadjer]

My side 

They will fix immigration so they claim, will never happen. Proposals to ban asylum seekers from settling and implementing mass deportations are legally and logistically unworkable for one thing.

As for trans, you fuck them but i guess you don't like to piss next to them 

You are absolutely obsessed with the fact that I saw TS escorts. Obsessed.

I've noticed that all you ever do is attack people: my punts, TR/SYL, Reform voters.  You are one hateful guy. I almost pity you but I understand how unhappy you are.

You should be a man and stand by your principles. Rather than call people names for what they believe, why don't you say what YOU believe? I noticed that you can't do that. To me, you are not a man.

[Snagbadjer]

Evidence? 

You don't think it's common sense? I think even a simpleton can grasp that Ukraine would not be in this war if they had not received billions of EU and US funds, Starlink access, javelin missiles etc. etc.

[Jerboa]

You are absolutely obsessed with the fact that I saw TS escorts. Obsessed.

I've noticed that all you ever do is attack people: my punts, TR/SYL, Reform voters.  You are one hateful guy. I almost pity you but I understand how unhappy you are.

You should be a man and stand by your principles. Rather than call people names for what they believe, why don't you say what YOU believe? I noticed that you can't do that. To me, you are not a man.

Wise words from Mr T fit the bill.
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[Jerboa]

You don't think it's common sense? I think even a simpleton can grasp that Ukraine would not be in this war if they had not received billions of EU and US funds, Starlink access, javelin missiles etc. etc.

Considering Zelensky's business partner Mindich fled to Israel, after he was implicated in major corruption, and also his former chief of staff Yermak has also been charged, the excuse that the dwarf comedian had no idea is pretty laughable.

[Matrix]

Let me get this straight. Some cunt who voted for Labour is concerned about the economy!!! 

Make it make sense.

[finn5555]

You are absolutely obsessed with the fact that I saw TS escorts. Obsessed.

I've noticed that all you ever do is attack people: my punts, TR/SYL, Reform voters.  You are one hateful guy. I almost pity you but I understand how unhappy you are.

You should be a man and stand by your principles. Rather than call people names for what they believe, why don't you say what YOU believe? I noticed that you can't do that. To me, you are not a man.

Don't get upset buddy, haven't attacked you, I just find it ironic that you happily punt transexuals yet moan about them using blokes toilets for one thing 

As for what i believe in, where would you place me I am curious 

I think you are defiantly right wing?

[finn5555]

You don't think it's common sense? I think even a simpleton can grasp that Ukraine would not be in this war if they had not received billions of EU and US funds, Starlink access, javelin missiles etc. etc.

Its what you think it is not fact

[Snagbadjer]

Don't get upset buddy, haven't attacked you, I just find it ironic that you happily punt transexuals yet moan about them using blokes toilets for one thing 

As for what i believe in, where would you place me I am curious 

I think you are defiantly right wing?

Findog is back. Come here doggie, walkies! You can follow me around for a bit if you like. Good doggie.

[Snagbadjer]

Let me get this straight. Some cunt who voted for Labour is concerned about the economy!!! 

Make it make sense.

It's not supposed to make sense. The leftist mind operates in lofty abstracts and empty platitudes. Often these are effective, hence why millions - albeit only 20% of the eligible electorate - vote for Kier "The Wanker" Starmer.

[Blackpool Rock]

Let me get this straight. Some cunt who voted for Labour is concerned about the economy!!! 

Make it make sense.

I assume that's aimed at me, well the thick cunts who voted leave and now vote for Reform and Far-Rage certainly didn't give 2 shits about the economy, either that or they hadn't got a clue what effect it would have as they're too fucking thick to work it out 

[Snagbadjer]

I assume that's aimed at me, well the thick cunts who voted leave and now vote for Reform and Far-Rage certainly didn't give 2 shits about the economy, either that or they hadn't got a clue what effect it would have as they're too fucking thick to work it out 

Wow, you sound sane.

[finn5555]

I assume that's aimed at me, well the thick cunts who voted leave and now vote for Reform and Far-Rage certainly didn't give 2 shits about the economy, either that or they hadn't got a clue what effect it would have as they're too fucking thick to work it out 

What we need to remember is the vast majority of reform voters are blinded by the bullshit and don’t fact check anything unless it’s printed in the Sun 🥴

But you’re right they are fucking thick!

Look how many times the right wing retards on here have been asked to deliver proof and don’t reply …

[Snagbadjer]

What we need to remember is the vast majority of reform voters are blinded by the bullshit and don’t fact check anything unless it’s printed in the Sun 🥴

But you’re right they are fucking thick!

Look how many times the right wing retards on here have been asked to deliver proof and don’t reply …

When I call, the Findog barks. Woof woof!

[finn5555]

When I call, the Findog barks. Woof woof!

My comments were not aimed specifically at you but if the cap fits 

[Snagbadjer]

My comments were not aimed specifically at you but if the cap fits 

Jump, doggie, jump!

[webpunter]

Jump, doggie, jump!

Whatever you do don't mention ER
Ooops
 

[scutty brown]

Whatever you do don't mention ER
Ooops
 

I've always thought it was unfortunate that Rebecca was barred
It was fun watching her beat Finn at linguistic gymnastics

[Adoniron]

Because Tommy is a working class guy from Luton, notice how he is regarded compared to Douglas Murray, both have similar opinions, but Douglas has a educated voice and went to university, there is classism, Tommy can never be forgiven for being a football thug 20 years ago, or running the EDL, it's shoot the messenger, he was speaking out about gang rapists back in 2005 years before the EDL.

Some social workers and police need to be held accountable in a court of law, for their actions/inaction.

Working class?

Has he ever had a proper job?

[Blackpool Rock]

Working class?

Has he ever had a proper job?

Well this is an AI overview of his work history

Tommy Robinson (born Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon) primarily built his career as a far-right political activist, political advisor, and commentator rather than holding traditional employment. His work history spans founding the English Defence League (EDL), acting as a foreign correspondent, and facing multiple prison sentences for various convictions.

Early Work History
Aviation Engineering: Robinson won a highly competitive apprenticeship as an aircraft engineer at Luton Airport and qualified in 2003 after five years of study.

Job Loss: He lost this career path in 2005 after being jailed for 12 months for assaulting an off-duty police officer during a drunken altercation.

Activism and Political Roles
English Defence League (EDL): He co-founded and led the English Defence League from 2009 until he resigned in 2013, citing concerns about growing extremist elements within the group.

Think-Tank Fellowship: Following his 2013 prison sentence for passport fraud, he briefly collaborated with the counter-extremism think tank Quilliam to distance himself from his past.

Political Advisor: He briefly served as a political advisor to Gerard Batten, then leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), in 2018. He also ran as an independent candidate in the 2019 European Parliament elections.

Media and Journalism Career
Rebel News: From 2017 to 2018, Robinson was hired as a UK correspondent and Shillman Fellow for the Canadian outlet Rebel News, where he produced provocative video content.

Independent Commentator: He has continued to produce independent films (such as "Pandorama") and publishes regular commentary across various social media platforms.

Criminal Record
Robinson’s work has frequently been interrupted by legal issues, leading to multiple prison sentences between 2005 and 2025. Notable convictions include:

2005: Assault occasioning actual bodily harm.
2013: Attempting to enter the United States using a friend's passport.
2014: Mortgage fraud.
2024: Contempt of court for repeating false claims against a Syrian refugee, resulting in an 18-month jail sentence.


So basically he's never had a "proper" or "traditional" job but he did win a coveted apprenticeship as an aircraft engineer which would have led to one until he fucked it up scrapping with an off duty copper, kind of sets the tone for the measure of the man doesn't it 

As we all know since then he's basically grifted his way through fighting; lying and cheating, what a guy 

[Vice Admiral]

Working class?
Has he ever had a proper job?

The answer to both questions is no.

After Cambridge University, he worked as a researcher for Tessa Jowell; as a parliamentary officer for the NHS Confederation; and as an administrator with the Football Task Force. From 1998 to 2001, he was a special adviser to Culture Secretary Chris Smith.  In 2001, he became an MP.  So, not working-class.  No proper jobs.

Oh, sorry,  you meant Tommy Robinson.  I thought you were talking about Andy Burnham.

[Adoniron]

Is the general consensus in the room with you now? What does that actually mean? Western media prints nonsense, and then the public just swallow it.

Ukraine taking a random piece of land is not a win. Ukraine's last general offensive was in summer 2023, and that ended in disaster, it was the high watermark for them.
Western media are focusing on Ukraine's drone strikes into Russia, it's good propaganda, it causes harm and local shortages of fuel, but it doesn't change anything strategically.

Why aren't they reporting from the front, particularly the Donbass? Right now Russian forces are mopping up in Lyman, which is a important lynchpin town NE of Slaviansk, it is approx 5 miles from the seversky donets river to Slaviansk.
And south of Kramatorsk Russian troops are enveloping the settlement of Konstantinovka, it holds strategic significance for Russia it is one of the fortress towns protecting the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk conurbation.
I actually follow the operational level battle on the fronts, following pro Russian & Ukrainian mappers. 

The Russian plan was to defeat Ukraine in weeks if not days, overthrow the government and install a Russian friendly puppet regime.

Do you seriously suggest that the war is going to end with Russia controlling 100% of Ukraine and regime change?

[Jerboa]

Well this is an AI overview of his work history

Tommy Robinson (born Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon) primarily built his career as a far-right political activist, political advisor, and commentator rather than holding traditional employment. His work history spans founding the English Defence League (EDL), acting as a foreign correspondent, and facing multiple prison sentences for various convictions.

Early Work History
Aviation Engineering: Robinson won a highly competitive apprenticeship as an aircraft engineer at Luton Airport and qualified in 2003 after five years of study.

Job Loss: He lost this career path in 2005 after being jailed for 12 months for assaulting an off-duty police officer during a drunken altercation.

Activism and Political Roles
English Defence League (EDL): He co-founded and led the English Defence League from 2009 until he resigned in 2013, citing concerns about growing extremist elements within the group.

Think-Tank Fellowship: Following his 2013 prison sentence for passport fraud, he briefly collaborated with the counter-extremism think tank Quilliam to distance himself from his past.

Political Advisor: He briefly served as a political advisor to Gerard Batten, then leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), in 2018. He also ran as an independent candidate in the 2019 European Parliament elections.

Media and Journalism Career
Rebel News: From 2017 to 2018, Robinson was hired as a UK correspondent and Shillman Fellow for the Canadian outlet Rebel News, where he produced provocative video content.

Independent Commentator: He has continued to produce independent films (such as "Pandorama") and publishes regular commentary across various social media platforms.

Criminal Record
Robinson’s work has frequently been interrupted by legal issues, leading to multiple prison sentences between 2005 and 2025. Notable convictions include:

2005: Assault occasioning actual bodily harm.
2013: Attempting to enter the United States using a friend's passport.
2014: Mortgage fraud.
2024: Contempt of court for repeating false claims against a Syrian refugee, resulting in an 18-month jail sentence.


So basically he's never had a "proper" or "traditional" job but he did win a coveted apprenticeship as an aircraft engineer which would have led to one until he fucked it up scrapping with an off duty copper, kind of sets the tone for the measure of the man doesn't it 

As we all know since then he's basically grifted his way through fighting; lying and cheating, what a guy 

You missed out the part from 2005 where he was working on building sites and started his own plumbing business, why did you miss that out? Is it not included in his wikipedia you just copied & pasted? Meaning you actually haven't a scooby.

[Jonestown]

So Robinson has got a dodgy past, so what, Stalin started out robbing banks didn’t he, and how many sitting on the Labour benches in both houses and countless council chambers, past and present, have got criminal convictions?

[Jerboa]

The Russian plan was to defeat Ukraine in weeks if not days, overthrow the government and install a Russian friendly puppet regime.

Do you seriously suggest that the war is going to end with Russia controlling 100% of Ukraine and regime change?

As I have stated before, the original 2022 invasion was a punch in the nose, to get Kiev to come to the negotiation table, and it actually worked, and yes sure if the government had collapsed Russia wouldn't have shed a tear, they would have carried on negotiating with recognised Ukrainian politicians.

No Russia doesn't want all of Ukraine, western Ukraine was never part of the Russian empire it was Austro-Hungarian/Polish, the people are Ukrainian speakers, the longer Ukraine refuses to come to terms the more territory Russia will take.

[finn5555]

and how many sitting on the Labour benches in both houses and countless council chambers, past and present, have got criminal convictions?

Evidence 

[Jerboa]

So Robinson has got a dodgy past, so what, Stalin started out robbing banks didn’t he, and how many sitting on the Labour benches in both houses and countless council chambers, past and present, have got criminal convictions?

Yeah but it's different, you see the establishment are quick to forget law breakers when it suits them, and uses it as a weapon when possible.
External Link/Members Only

[Blackpool Rock]

You missed out the part from 2005 where he was working on building sites and started his own plumbing business, why did you miss that out? Is it not included in his wikipedia you just copied & pasted? Meaning you actually haven't a scooby.

It's not from Wiki as I said I asked a question on Google and it came up with this AI overview which didn't include anything about him being Super Mario 

His accounts look pretty shit, probably just a vehicle to filter some dodgy cash, he likes dodgy shit like using other peoples passports and fiddling mortgage applications 

[finn5555]

It's not from Wiki as I said I asked a question on Google and it came up with this AI overview which didn't include anything about him being Super Mario 

His accounts look pretty shit, probably just a vehicle to filter some dodgy cash, he likes dodgy shit like using other peoples passports and fiddling mortgage applications 

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Snagbadjer]

It's not from Wiki as I said I asked a question on Google and it came up with this AI overview which didn't include anything about him being Super Mario 

His accounts look pretty shit, probably just a vehicle to filter some dodgy cash, he likes dodgy shit like using other peoples passports and fiddling mortgage applications 

The question wasn't what TR/SYL's accounts looked like; it was if he was working class or not. Why are you ignoring the evidence and seeking to pivot?

[Blackpool Rock]

Yeah but it's different, you see the establishment are quick to forget law breakers when it suits them, and uses it as a weapon when possible.
External Link/Members Only

Politicians from all / most parties on there though and I believe there is a higher % of Politicians convicted / in prison than any other job / career so it's hardly an exclusive club.

A fair portion of these look to have fiddled their expenses which isn't acceptable but then again you have the more serious law breakers like sex crimes which seems to tip in the Tories favour and then Reform's Nathan Gill for taking bribes to ask questions for Russa, fucking traitor 

[Blackpool Rock]

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Blackpool Rock]

The question wasn't what TR/SYL's accounts looked like; it was if he was working class or not. Why are you ignoring the evidence and seeking to pivot?

I'm not, OK so he briefly trained to become a plumber and then set up his own company, fair enough as he'd have struggled to get employed by anyone having come out of prison

In terms of is he "Working class" then yes he clearly is having been born into a working class family and largely mixing with working class people however there are also many people defined as working class who don't really like the work bit.
Perhaps Tommy is a bit smarter than the rest of the herd who follow him as he's realised that he can Grift rather than use his spanners and they will stump up some of their benefits to bankroll him despite there apparently being a cost of living crisis 

[Snagbadjer]

I'm not, OK so he briefly trained to become a plumber and then set up his own company, fair enough as he'd have struggled to get employed by anyone having come out of prison

In terms of is he "Working class" then yes he clearly is having been born into a working class family and largely mixing with working class people however there are also many people defined as working class who don't really like the work bit.
Perhaps Tommy is a bit smarter than the rest of the herd who follow him as he's realised that he can Grift rather than use his spanners and they will stump up some of their benefits to bankroll him despite there apparently being a cost of living crisis 

Good on you for conceding the point, albeit with clear reluctance and a bit of childish abuse at the end to compensate.

I don't receive benefits and donated to the Rage Gang Inquiry? I also served my country. What have you done, tough guy?

[Snagbadjer]

Politicians from all / most parties on there though and I believe there is a higher % of Politicians convicted / in prison than any other job / career so it's hardly an exclusive club.

A fair portion of these look to have fiddled their expenses which isn't acceptable but then again you have the more serious law breakers like sex crimes which seems to tip in the Tories favour and then Reform's Nathan Gill for taking bribes to ask questions for Russa, fucking traitor 

Nazir Ahmed
Eric Joyce
Jared O'Mara
Denis MacShane
Elliot Morley
Jim Devine
Eric Illsley
David Chaytor
Sean Coughlan
Liron Velleman
Sean Morton

A few Labour politicians and Lords convicted of CSA, corruption, embezzlement. I could only find TWO Reform candidates for child porn offenses (Simon Danczuk [who was also a Labour MP] and Jack Denny). So the balance seems to be heavily in Labour's favour.

[Blackpool Rock]

Good on you for conceding the point, albeit with clear reluctance and a bit of childish abuse at the end to compensate.

I don't receive benefits and donated to the Rage Gang Inquiry? I also served my country. What have you done, tough guy?

Whose conceding any point  I never said that he hadn't worked, all I did was post the AI overview which omitted that part for some reason, no reluctance whatsoever and i'm actually grateful for you sharing that piece of information 

Congratulations for being one of Tommy's donators and not receiving benefits, again i've learnt something here in that there are a few "Outliers"

I've never claimed to be a "Tough Guy", let me know what level of security clearance you have and I may be able to tell you what i've done for my country but i'm guessing you are more at the "Grunt" end of the scale