If the UK wants to hurt Putin they should stop all the Russian money in London

[DylzzCee]

For decades Russian businessmen with ties to Putin have brought up property, propping up political parties.
If the UK wants to hurt Putin, then target these dodgy Russian oligarchs but I have a feeling the UK establishment won't, because Russian capital is too deep in our country nowadays.

[Liverpool]

I've a feeling you're going to be breaking the "off topic" rule here.

[DylzzCee]

What's the rule?

Edit: nevermind just seen it. I should have worded the question better. My mistake but it was just something on my mind.

[lostandfound]

Just confiscate it all. Would be a boon to the Exchequer which is badly needed after splurging £400 billion on the pandemic.

[chrishornx]

What's the rule?

Edit: nevermind just seen it. I should have worded the question better. My mistake but it was just something on my mind.

what was the question?

[DylzzCee]

Basically if the UK is serious about sanctioning Russian assets and if so will they target the Russian oligarchs who live in London?

[chrishornx]

Basically if the UK is serious about sanctioning Russian assets and if so will they target the Russian oligarchs who live in London?

thanks it wasn't clear

[Proton]

Basically if the UK is serious about sanctioning Russian assets and if so will they target the Russian oligarchs who live in London?

A Good Question !!.. About two years ago I was watching "60 minutes" on CBS via the internet. They had a very interning in depth look how the money that's held in London is moved around so many times it become almost impossible to find its origin. At that point it looks good old clean money yet in massive amount with no questions asked.
 This program said it's moved around internally for a while in these countries, starting with South America then via Germany back to North America and finally LONDON. There was a lot of shady involvement with big name international banks who had even bigger expensive layer to protect them.     
             If you have a chance to watch CBS, take a look at the massive archive of 60 minutes, well worth it

[DylzzCee]

thanks it wasn't clear

No problem. I haven't contributed in a while so I forgot some of the rules. I'll be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

[DastardlyDick]

I strongly suspect that the said oligarchs have already moved their money out of London, so it's just posturing for world opinion.

[Stevelondon]

I strongly suspect that the said oligarchs have already moved their money out of London, so it's just posturing for world opinion.

Like Putins yacht leaving a german port before its repairs were finished 

[Geoff800]

Devil's advocate... 

Would they nuke us if all their wealth, investements and assetts were in London 

[Stevelondon]

Devil's advocate... 

Would they nuke us if all their wealth, investements and assetts were in London 

That my friend depends where Putin has his stash.

Actually it doesn’t. There is no government policy going on in Russia. It’s one twisted Mama Fucker with his hand on the button remember.
The rest of the world can impose as many sanctions on Russia as they want too. Putin the prat (Good Ruski name don’t you think) has already said HIS PEOPLE are strong and will put up with shortages of any kind.
He won’t of course as he quaffs champagne and caviar from his luxury abodes.
Any change in that country has to come from within and that would take years.

[sparkus]

They're not Russian oligarchs! They're High Net Worth Individuals investing much needed money in UK firms, honest.

And they're not fronts and lobbyists, they're wealth management consultants!

[standardpostage]

They're not Russian oligarchs! They're High Net Worth Individuals investing much needed money in UK firms, honest.

And they're not fronts and lobbyists, they're wealth management consultants!

Difficult to hurt Putin. He's in a ivory tower.

[Doc Holliday]

It seems the UK has been as prepared for this as it was with Covid?

External Link/Members Only

[spiralnotebook]

The UK was well prepared for the removal of Saddam though, the military was delivering munitions 24/7 before they even started threatening invasion.

[lamboman]

It seems the UK has been as prepared for this as it was with Covid?

External Link/Members Only

There's a simple explanation for this which the Gruniad has conspicuously failed to mention at all.
No surprise.

[lostandfound]

Tbh I think this is just our achilles heel - the flip side of our strength as a world leading financial centre.

A bit like Germany's achilles heel is oil and gas, in which area it is opposing wide reaching sanctions. The flip side of its energy intensive world leading manufacturing industries (and headlong rush to disinvest in what it considers non-green energy).

[Marmalade]

Tbh I think this is just our achilles heel - the flip side of our strength as a world leading financial centre.

A bit like Germany's achilles heel is oil and gas, in which area it is opposing wide reaching sanctions. The flip side of its energy intensive world leading manufacturing industries (and headlong rush to disinvest in what it considers non-green energy).

Just Germany? Ukraine is and has been dependent on Russian oil and gas for ages, whereas Western companies (BP if I remember correctly) have been keen to start fracking in Ukraine which is believed to have massive underground resources. Europe have not been very cooperative on such things over the years, and possibly wary of U.S./IMF wheeling and dealing (which, according to taped phone calls eight years ago, included the comment “fuck the EU” —- Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland to  then U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt).

Europe has only a limited economic interest in Ukraine, tiny compared to America’s interest. But the monstrous hit to Europe will be the effect of a further massive influx of refugees, estimated to cost into $30 billion in the first year alone.
External Link/Members Only

(for documentation, see Counterpunch)
  External Link/Members Only
(editing to add link)

[lostandfound]

Just Germany? Ukraine is and has been dependent on Russian oil and gas for ages, whereas Western companies (BP if I remember correctly) have been keen to start fracking in Ukraine which is believed to have massive underground resources. Europe have not been very cooperative on such things over the years, and possibly wary of U.S./IMF wheeling and dealing (which, according to taped phone calls eight years ago, included the comment “fuck the EU” —- Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland to  then U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt).

Europe has only a limited economic interest in Ukraine, tiny compared to America’s interest. But the monstrous hit to Europe will be the effect of a further massive influx of refugees, estimated to cost into $30 billion in the first year alone.
External Link/Members Only

(for documentation, see Counterpunch)
  External Link/Members Only
(editing to add link)

$30 billion ... 0.2% of GDP of > $15 trillion - I think they've broad enough shoulders.

BP has taken a hit of up to $25 bn on their Rosneft stake, but they also have broad shoulders with the spiralling oil price a nice compensation for them; even on a day of maximum pessimism like today their share price is still up 20% compared to the summer.

[mills_and_bhuna]

I see this is the usual nonsense regarding Russia which we've been fed by our Imperial masters through our lapdogs in the UK government and their PR wing in the press.
What about the Saudi money and Israeli money currently swishing around London and it's financial system?
Both countries bombing the shit out of or occupying land that isn't theirs.
Oh I forgot. They're bombing brown people That's apparently OK.

[Marmalade]

I see this is the usual nonsense regarding Russia which we've been fed by our Imperial masters through our lapdogs in the UK government and their PR wing in the press.
What about the Saudi money and Israeli money currently swishing around London and it's financial system?
Both countries bombing the shit out of or occupying land that isn't theirs.
Oh I forgot. They're bombing brown people That's apparently OK.

Seriously, no offence, but I don't particularly subscribe to the sadism of the OP or what might be called the virtue signalling of your own post, mills/bhuna.

So how about if we maybe put all that aside, shall we? May we assume that you, the same as me, are living in the U.K. and not in a tent somewhere. Now the unfortunate business, should one wish to call it that, is that Israel and Saudi – and America if we include them, happen to be, at least notionally, "on our side".

Do I think that we could have a better and more evolved society? Of course I do. If you look at the other thread, you'll see I am one of the first to point to the NeoCon involvement in pre-conflict Ukraine, which I don't agree with. But I agree with the Russian system even less; and with great respect to their interesting heritages, I wouldn't want to live under the neanderthal regimes of Palestinians or Yemenis either.

Again, to be brutally honest, we also benefit very considerably from the economic and other links with Israel and Saudi Arabia, even if we do not like their regimes. The race card is pretty irrelevant in my opinion.

Or think about it in terms of ancient tribes fighting each other, painting their faces, wearing masks, dancing with their spears, and then attacking and/or fighting off the neighbouring village. They go to war, at great cost, not because the other village is more brown or has orange hair or more pointy eyes: they do it for survival or to increase the wealth of their tribe, either of which they see as necessary enough to shed blood over. That's the way it goes. Not much has changed.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Seriously, no offence, but I don't particularly subscribe to the sadism of the OP or what might be called the virtue signalling of your own post, mills/bhuna.

So how about if we maybe put all that aside, shall we? May we assume that you, the same as me, are living in the U.K. and not in a tent somewhere. Now the unfortunate business, should one wish to call it that, is that Israel and Saudi – and America if we include them, happen to be, at least notionally, "on our side".

Do I think that we could have a better and more evolved society? Of course I do. If you look at the other thread, you'll see I am one of the first to point to the NeoCon involvement in pre-conflict Ukraine, which I don't agree with. But I agree with the Russian system even less; and with great respect to their interesting heritages, I wouldn't want to live under the neanderthal regimes of Palestinians or Yemenis either.

Again, to be brutally honest, we also benefit very considerably from the economic and other links with Israel and Saudi Arabia, even if we do not like their regimes. The race card is pretty irrelevant in my opinion.

Or think about it in terms of ancient tribes fighting each other, painting their faces, wearing masks, dancing with their spears, and then attacking and/or fighting off the neighbouring village. They go to war, at great cost, not because the other village is more brown or has orange hair or more pointy eyes: they do it for survival or to increase the wealth of their tribe, either of which they see as necessary enough to shed blood over. That's the way it goes. Not much has changed.

Sorry but there are no sides in this.
Wealthy, powerful people don't give a shit about you or I.
Whether they're Russian or American or Saudi or British.
If you want to buy into the bullshit that's up to you.
This was totally avoidable.
And if you want to join in the sabre rattling feel free.

[Marmalade]

Sorry but there are no sides in this.
Wealthy, powerful people don't give a shit about you or I.
Whether they're Russian or American or Saudi or British.
If you want to buy into the bullshit that's up to you.
This was totally avoidable.
And if you want to join in the sabre rattling feel free.

I personally think you are doing the sabre rattling, but we can discuss, if you wish, and can do so politely.

There are rich people in both 'tribes'. It is not a matter of 'good' or 'bad': merely a statement of what is.
Was it avoidable? yes it was. That was due to miscalculation, and also perhaps the fact that American intelligence leaks worse than a sieve.
But sending the RAF in now?? If you can justify it tactically I will support you.

Meanwhile:
NATO, or at minimum the USA chiefs who pay most of the bills (which the unpopular Mr Trump tried to recoup and wasn't thanked for it), they would, from all accounts other than perhaps CNN etc, very much and quite believably like some missiles positioned on the border of Ukraine. It would, to quote from an old planning memo, "help to destabilise" the communist etc powers. They poured quite a lot of money into it and with expected gains, politically and economically. It is almost like a game of chess -- something that Putin used to be good at apparently. They didn't plan for his unexpected move (which btw makes quite a bit of sense from a Russian point of view, contrary to criticisms, nasty as it is).

Now if Britain sends in a few jets and shoots down a couple of Russian whatevers, I rather suspect Russia/Belarus can scramble more jets, more quickly, and all the while carrying on with their mission of taking Ukraine out of the Western sphere of influence one way or another.

The endgame would be a loss of expensive jets and an excuse that Russia would doubtless use to declare that NATO had attacked Russia. It would probably set back NATO's long term plans with no benefit other than satisfying your sentimentality as it were (and that of many other not-very-rich people) and probably plunge Europe more quickly into war. Additionally the potentially helpful arbitration of China would be lost. America could even claim deniability. As far as I can see it's not going to happen unless Russia makes a very big wrong move (i.e. bigger than laying waste to Ukraine which admittedly is bad).

After the war, the likelihood is that Ukraine will fight a protracted guerilla war. This will give NATO hope (and also allow profitable sales of arms to continue). America benefits to an extent unfortunately from some forms of European impoverishment. No-one said that "Wealthy, powerful people give a shit about you or I". That isn't the point. That we nevertheless get a slightly better deal under Western so-called 'democratic' rule than under an authoritarian Russian rule is a side effect.

So what bullshit exactly do you believe I'm "buying into??"
If you can demonstrate it I can possibly see it and amend my opinions. Otherwise I would expect you to withdraw your accusation. But so far you seem mostly just to have had a bit of a rant. Understandable but not logically supportable as far as I see. I've avoided using the term 'woke' as I don't think partisan labels help: but you'll have to come up with something if I am to take you seriously.

[mills_and_bhuna]

Sorry but there are no sides in this.
Wealthy, powerful people don't give a shit about you or I.
Whether they're Russian or American or Saudi or British.
If you want to buy into the bullshit that's up to you.
This was totally avoidable.
And if you want to join in the sabre rattling feel free.

I'm not sure if you've picked me up wrong but I'm advocating for staying out of American games.
War is the last thing I want.
And as to your point about American intelligence.
Their whole raison d'etre is to destabilise other parts of the world.
If something leaks we all know the price the leaker pays.
Assange is now in prison for exposing their antics.
I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Western media outlets.
Sadly all I'm hearing is the point of view that Russia is bad and we in the West are riding to the rescue of the poor Ukrainian people by supplying them with weapons.
This same Ukrainian people who have a government riddled with what can only be described as overt fascists.
They don't even hide it.

[bodybuilder1997]

I'm not sure if you've picked me up wrong but I'm advocating for staying out of American games.
War is the last thing I want.
And as to your point about American intelligence.
Their whole raison d'etre is to destabilise other parts of the world.
If something leaks we all know the price the leaker pays.
Assange is now in prison for exposing their antics.
I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Western media outlets.
Sadly all I'm hearing is the point of view that Russia is bad and we in the West are riding to the rescue of the poor Ukrainian people by supplying them with weapons.
This same Ukrainian people who have a government riddled with what can only be described as overt fascists.
They don't even hide it.

Thank you sir 🙏🙏🙏

It’s disgusting how absorbed Europeans are in this war while the Americans sit back as they watch Europe burn to death. Without a doubt USA are pulling the strings here and with NATO, incrementally upping the risks for an all out war with Russia.

American military companies and also gas/oil companies (the elites) are already rolling in filthy money while the average European begin feeling through burn of paying for higher fuel. Its now almost £1.70 for a litre of fucking diesel now. How? Because EU bullied by USA to end supply lines for cheap Russian fuel and now buy shitty low grade American energy at an average of 30-40% more.

NATO are cunts for their expansionist policies and breaking treaty after treaty with Russia, till the point they reached the actual border of Russia. And people wonder why, after 30 years, Russia finally bite back.

 

[bodybuilder1997]

I see this is the usual nonsense regarding Russia which we've been fed by our Imperial masters through our lapdogs in the UK government and their PR wing in the press.
What about the Saudi money and Israeli money currently swishing around London and it's financial system?
Both countries bombing the shit out of or occupying land that isn't theirs.
Oh I forgot. They're bombing brown people That's apparently OK.

💯💯💯
Did you read on the news that Sainsbury’s have relabelled the Chicken Kiev as Chicken Kyiv as a show of support 😂😂

Ukraine/Russia war is just another artificial, calculated war by the elites in the USA.
Americans love war and so does NATO. NATO wouldn’t need to exist without inventing its own enemies.
Even in America, they regard WW2 as a “good war” even though millions have died.. all because it gave USA the position of a sole global superpower.

Any war is good for USA, because (1) it supports their global hegemony (2) it’s a billion dollar business

The elites are currently rolling in billions of dollars in a safe island tucked away somewhere while us poor Europeans become even poor paying for higher energy costs whilst having our lives put at risk due to NATO risking nuclear war.  They must have had an absolute field day when NS2 pipeline got suspended

Suckers

[pbrown355]

BB can you educate me as to which treaties with Russia NATO have broken?
My naive view is that a sovereign nation (in this case Ukraine) should be able to make their own decision as to which club they join. Invading them just seems to emphasize what a good decision it would have been to have already joined NATO.

[stevedave]

Pretty sure the majority of this is off topic and broadly breaks the no political chat rule...

[Marmalade]

Pretty sure the majority of this is off topic and broadly breaks the no political chat rule...

We'll let the mods rule on it. Personally I'm guessing it might be ok if it doesn't get too heated or argumentative over British politics etc, but up to the mods.

To the previous posters who seem to be getting a bit agitated:
– On the rules of NATO/Russia and 'breaking them', please see my posts on the other thread (hypersonics) if interested -- it's complicated.

– Just as people have the right (mods permitting) to feel angry or criticise other posters for not opposing American politics or whatever, other people also have the right to feel genuinely sympathetic to, and appalled by, the suffering of thousands of Ukrainians.

An intellectual discussion is one thing: slagging off other forum members is another.
Do try not to start a forum war. 

[southcoastpunter]

An intellectual discussion is one thing: slagging off other forum members is another.

i accept that we all have our own opinions and take on things (and that is ok) - but it is difficult when you get some of the polarised and extreme statements as a couple of guys have put. I can't decide whether they really believe it or whether they are trolling!

[bodybuilder1997]

BB can you educate me as to which treaties with Russia NATO have broken?
My naive view is that a sovereign nation (in this case Ukraine) should be able to make their own decision as to which club they join. Invading them just seems to emphasize what a good decision it would have been to have already joined NATO.

NATO’s goal is “to keep the Russians out [of Europe], the Americans in and the Germans down.”Hastings L. Ismay (1887-1965), first NATO Secretary-General (1952-1957)

NATO  is America’s main source to influence and control much of Western Europe. Even though it was created initially at the fall of the Soviet Union to contain it after the Cold War, it should have disbanded. The elites now have no intention of dismantling it at all ever.

NATO is a war machine that only exists to invent enemies and cause wars. The U.N. on the other hand is there to prevent wars from happening.
In the last twenty years alone, NATO had bombed their way through Iraq and Syria , even with strict prohibition from the United Nations. The first ever time NATO brought misery to an innocent was Yugoslavia , and this was against the United Nations charter - this set the precedent.

I would have no problem with NATO, but when they freely bomb countries (against UN Charter and approval) and also follow expansionist policies across the world to sustain American hegemony , then I’m glad a superpower like Russia stands up to the bullyboy tactics of NATO.

As Macron said, NATO is brain dead and Europe need their own army. NATO is only there to serve American interests and members of NATO need to spend 2% of GDP on “defence”  USA is also the #1 exporter of weaponry in the world.

 The deep state elites in America are probably getting huge hard ones now that Europe could potentially trip over into a major war. All while the American stay safely tucked away thousands of miles away. Almost like a repeat of WW2. Watch the world burn then step in on the last minute so the Americans can keep their #1 superpower position.

Ridiculous  how bad the propaganda on BBC news and Sky is atm 🤢🤮

[chrishornx]

Europe has only a limited economic interest in Ukraine, tiny compared to America’s interest.

come off it Marmalade that is far too much of a generalisation

the EU  economic interest is immense

Ukraine has $30 billion reserves of Iron ore, $50bn EU investment was made in the country in 2020 alone, Ukraine is a key supplier of EU manufacturer car parts, 100,000 Ukrainians work for the worlds high tech companies like facebook, It has the Fourth largest gas production line in the world , 60% of the European Investment Bank  Investment lending is in Ukraine,  it is the worlds largest exporter of Sunflower Oil, Third largest world producer of Potatoes, Fourth largest for Rye and barley, fifth for wheat, honey and corn

It is the world's third largest gas producer

the long term economic interest the EU has in Ukraine is substantial not limited

[Marmalade]

come off it Marmalade that is far too much of a generalisation

the EU  economic interest is immense

Ukraine has $30 billion reserves of Iron ore, $50bn EU investment was made in the country in 2020 alone, Ukraine is a key supplier of EU manufacturer car parts, 100,000 Ukrainians work for the worlds high tech companies like facebook, It has the Fourth largest gas production line in the world, 60% of the European Investment Bank  Investment lending is in Ukraine,  it is the worlds largest exporter of Sunflower Oil, Third largest world producer of Potatoes, Fourth largest for Rye and barley, fifth for wheat, honey and corn

It is the world's third largest gas producer

the long term economic interest the EU has in Ukraine is substantial not limited

I appreciate your figures but why not just say you disagree? I'm not trying to bamboozle.

It would be hard to tally up all the figures, and especially adjusting them for the present situation. I imagine that although any practical EU interest may be considerable, I still suspect that it is dwarfed by the American investment. Many of the investments of both blocks will be affected by the war, but it is America that is instrumental in regime change, just as is Russia. They've been working on it for a long time, actively and traceably for at least 8 years. Many of the deals for 'development' would funnel profits to the U.S., not the EU. This particularly in the changing of laws to allow land sales for instance. The money flow has been so great that observers have also described the vast U.S. involvement with the Ukraine as 'C.I.A. money laundering'. Russian control of the country will greatly complicate and mess things up, for the U.S. and for Ukrainians to put it mildly, but there is little doubt that 'hearts and minds' have been won, and the hopes of many Ukrainian people that remain will be geared towards deals that have been put in place with hope of reigniting them. The economic interest of Ukraine is, as you say, immense. I am less sure than you are that the EU can realise much of that now.

Whatever the available opportunity for the West, I suspect America will be doing its best to cut the EU out as much as possible, and I think it will probably have considerable power to do that. Of course, I might be wrong.

[chrishornx]

Ukraine is and has been dependent on Russian oil and gas for ages,

Ukraine hasn't imported gas from Russia since 2015

[Marmalade]

Ukraine hasn't imported gas from Russia since 2015

I stand corrected. 

[lamboman]

Assange is now in prison for exposing their antics.

That's stretching the truth somewhat,the guy is a egotistical maniac.

[Marmalade]

As just one, and a very ordinary example, of how the U.S. will have an economic benefit over Europe...

America has been trying to sell the EU gas for years rather than rely on Russian gas. But American gas is much more expensive and difficult for Europe -- on top of transport costs it has to be converted into liquid form and then back again to gas form when offloaded at European ports. "Exporting that oil and gas serves to prevent a supply glut in the USA that would reduce prices in the US. So getting Europe to buy US gas raises US energy corporations’ profits: it achieves more sales revenue from Europe and it gets to keep prices high in the US as well. It’s been difficult to convince the Germans up to now to buy much more expensive US gas. The war in Ukraine is the answer to this US dilemma. It may now get Europe to shift to US gas even though the cost is so much higher. (Some estimate five times as high)."

I haven't looked into all the ramifications of the selective SWIFT sanctions but the U.S. was far more keen on them than Europe. Europe's economy is more tied in with Russia than America's. Ukraine's food production has also already been mentioned, which will be a negative economic hit for the EU. The  USA will also have heavy costs due to the war, but will possibly recover much more quickly partly as it is more self-sufficient. (Those interested may also possibly remember that when the NeroCon agenda failed to make South America its 'bread basket', it turned its attention to Europe.)

[Marmalade]

That's stretching the truth somewhat,the guy is a egotistical maniac.

Really? Even if he is an 'egotistical maniac', how does that affect the quality of his award-wining journalism? I don't think people get locked up for being egotistical.

Again, could I maybe suggest we keep the tone less heated or the mods will doubtless invoke catch 22 or whatever the rule about politics applies to... 

[lamboman]

Really? Even if he is an 'egotistical maniac', how does that affect the quality of his award-wining journalism? I don't think people get locked up for being egotistical.

Again, could I maybe suggest we keep the tone less heated or the mods will doubtless invoke catch 22 or whatever the rule about politics applies to... 

I didn't say he got locked up for being egotistical try reading properly.

[Marmalade]

I didn't say he got locked up for being egotistical try reading properly.

No, you just contradicted mills-n-co, who, even if he was trolling and making a statement that had sod all to do with the thread, was substantially correct. I can read fine thank you. How about you? 

[Marmalade]

This thread seems to be devolving into petty arguments... No-one has offered a financial analysis of "stopping all the Russian money in London" and its impact (if that statement even makes sense). Maybe time for something else.

[bodybuilder1997]

This thread seems to be devolving into petty arguments... No-one has offered a financial analysis of "stopping all the Russian money in London" and its impact (if that statement even makes sense). Maybe time for something else.

I don’t think you will ever get any logical comments here with anything to do with the Russian invasion because 99% of people here just read mainstream media propaganda rubbish

[lillythesavage]

I am sure Putin gave his mates some warning and they got out what they could. 

[chrishornx]

I don’t think you will ever get any logical comments here with anything to do with the Russian invasion because 99% of people here just read mainstream media propaganda rubbish

spoken like a Stapler clone

Seems to me that the likes of Marmalade, the Doc, Lamboman etc are pretty well read what should we all be reading?

[chrishornx]

I don’t think you will ever get any logical comments here with anything to do with the Russian invasion because 99% of people here just read mainstream media propaganda rubbish

guess you have no answer

[bodybuilder1997]

guess you have no answer

Didn’t understand your question

[chrishornx]

Didn’t understand your question

look at reply 45 - the question is simple

[chrishornx]

BB can you educate me as to which treaties with Russia NATO have broken?

he is not capable of answering simple questions he just regurgitates crap