Author Topic: Commuting by train  (Read 1642 times)

Offline King Nuts

Now that HM Govt is urging everyone to get back to work but the rail companies have reverted to 'lockdown' timetables, it would seem to be the ideal time to restructure rail's absolutely bonkers ticket pricing system, to get trains busy again and restore some sort of confidence.

I've been commuting 2 x weekly up to London for months now, and pre-pandemic did it for years. Service is slower now, and not as good, but ticket prices are as ludicrously complex as ever. So the trains, even at peak times are not even half full. I've been up north on work-related trips a few times too and noticed the same. On one trip up to Manchester, I was one of only two people in the carriage.

Maybe others don't mind, but I don't like seeing empty trains, and it makes me think that if something doesn't 'give' soon, then there'll be some serious cutbacks, which won't be good for any of us. We need rail, if only to stop the roads getting clogged up.

Offline RedKettle

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Now that HM Govt is urging everyone to get back to work but the rail companies have reverted to 'lockdown' timetables, it would seem to be the ideal time to restructure rail's absolutely bonkers ticket pricing system, to get trains busy again and restore some sort of confidence.

I've been commuting 2 x weekly up to London for months now, and pre-pandemic did it for years. Service is slower now, and not as good, but ticket prices are as ludicrously complex as ever. So the trains, even at peak times are not even half full. I've been up north on work-related trips a few times too and noticed the same. On one trip up to Manchester, I was one of only two people in the carriage.

Maybe others don't mind, but I don't like seeing empty trains, and it makes me think that if something doesn't 'give' soon, then there'll be some serious cutbacks, which won't be good for any of us. We need rail, if only to stop the roads getting clogged up.

Pricing is ridiculously complex and expensive.  It particularly hits you if you do a trip in a group of say 4 and you realise you could save a fortune by using a car!

I use trains alot for work so am used to the system but even I got done for having the wrong ticket on a journey because I had misunderstood the online pricing for the return journey.  Had to pay £40 surcharge or something.

Make it simple and cheap.

Offline lillythesavage

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Pricing is ridiculously complex and expensive.  It particularly hits you if you do a trip in a group of say 4 and you realise you could save a fortune by using a car!

I use trains alot for work so am used to the system but even I got done for having the wrong ticket on a journey because I had misunderstood the online pricing for the return journey.  Had to pay £40 surcharge or something.

Make it simple and cheap.

I was going to make the same point, for groups the car is way cheaper, no travel to and from stations, you go direct to your destination, I do use them regularly, but only if the fare makes sense.

I was recently quoted 160 quid, one way to Southport as the cheapest ticket that day, paid my mate to drive me, cost the same but he got paid and not shareholders. No messing getting into town or taxi the other end either.
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Offline suttonporksword

I agree that the ticketing options need a review, and the government will only be able to prop up the rail operators for a period of time . I am shocked that in all the time we have had a carnet ticket hasnt been offered, one which gives the use x no journeys for a fixed price, perfect for times when people are only occasionally travelling rather than  5 days a week. One other point being that when travellening for business purposes the amount of work I can do on a train means even at more expense than driving it's a no brainer

Offline Hemeldriver

Arent the prices set by the government not the train operators?

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Ah! yes well rail ticketing is a similar thing to train spotting and there are forums about that too!.

Mind you i have to do a trip soon where to drive is the cost in fuel is 35 quid but being of coffin dodgin age the price discout with a senior railcard is worth it at 29.75 plus!, via road twice the dartford
Tunnel corssing charge thats what?, 5 quid overal each way so 40 quid in tolls and fuel alone?.:)

Wouldnt go to London by car nowadays can get a travel card, rail tube and bus no congestion charges or ULEZ charges no parking charges whats not to like?.

Yes admittledy  the car full then the does change the way of it, but how many cars drive around full and full when commuting?...

« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 07:57:51 pm by Watts.E.Dunn »

Online alabama1

I was going to make the same point, for groups the car is way cheaper, no travel to and from stations, you go direct to your destination, I do use them regularly, but only if the fare makes sense.

I was recently quoted 160 quid, one way to Southport as the cheapest ticket that day, paid my mate to drive me, cost the same but he got paid and not shareholders. No messing getting into town or taxi the other end either.
You paid your mate £160 for a one way trip to Southport !  :wackogirl:

Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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You paid your mate £160 for a one way trip to Southport !  :wackogirl:

Sometimes singles are almost as expensive as return trips..

Offline King Nuts

Arent the prices set by the government not the train operators?

Some fares are, but the Train Operating Companies have a certain amount of leeway with certain types of ticket.

Here's how insane it can be: if I book a one-way ticket to London from my local station, in advance, off peak, and with a railcard, it can be as little as 7 or 8 quid. If I turn up at the station now, and want to go now, first class (which isn't worth it, by the way) and without a railcard, it's close to 100 quid. Utterly bonkers.


Offline jaydefo24

Train tickets are a scandal in our country. Having lived in France, NL and Germany I can confirm that British train tickets are a riot worthy scandal. Tickets should literally be half the price they are. The fact that sites like External Link/Members Only exist because the system is so fukt that you can pay significantly less by splitting the journey into smaller chunks just adds to the madness.

Offline lillythesavage

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You paid your mate £160 for a one way trip to Southport !  :wackogirl:

No, it was two ways, he had to return :D, but it was my car and he got 100 quid plus food and drink, the rest went in the tank, we then drove 2 cars back.

Worked out the same money, once I took getting into town and a taxi on arrival, so much easier.
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Offline lillythesavage

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Some fares are, but the Train Operating Companies have a certain amount of leeway with certain types of ticket.

Here's how insane it can be: if I book a one-way ticket to London from my local station, in advance, off peak, and with a railcard, it can be as little as 7 or 8 quid. If I turn up at the station now, and want to go now, first class (which isn't worth it, by the way) and without a railcard, it's close to 100 quid. Utterly bonkers.

There are no set prices, so no idea how the Government set them, going to the station to travel that day might be, online they vary so much.

I booked an afternoon train from the other side of Exeter back into Essex, next day booking, for 17.80, few days later, a morning train to Southport is 160 odd quid on a next day booking.
Returns are no cheaper, you have to chose 2 trains, and this bollocks of ticket only valid for that train is annoying, especially when you arrive at the station early and see a nearly empty earlier train pulling out, took the earlier ones during covid, they were not checking tickets, but they are again now and cannot be arsed dealing with a jobsworth.

Advance booking is nonsense for most, not everyone knows they need to go somewhere weeks in advance, even if you do, life can change your plans. Set prices at a reasonable rate and they may get decent custom, trains out of London are rarely busy in mornings.
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Offline conrod

I agree, it is a joke.  The system is designed to take advantage of people's ignorance.

 If you know your stuff, you can save a fortune.  For example, I bought three tickets for one journey and saved over 30% over one through ticket, all with the same train company. 

On long journeys, you can save a lot of money.  Often the key is to look at where the train departs after 09:30.  At that point cheaper tickets kick in.


Offline lillythesavage

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I agree, it is a joke.  The system is designed to take advantage of people's ignorance.

 If you know your stuff, you can save a fortune.  For example, I bought three tickets for one journey and saved over 30% over one through ticket, all with the same train company. 

On long journeys, you can save a lot of money.  Often the key is to look at where the train departs after 09:30.  At that point cheaper tickets kick in.

I knew this, but really CBA to bother, and should not have to, the peak time thing is misleading, those busy trains coming in to any city are going out again, still in peak times virtually empty. unless their is an event on somewhere, then the ticket prices go up any way.
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Offline Taggart

Arent the prices set by the government not the train operators?

Yes. And all operators (except LNER and Northern) are under Government contracts for small percentage, between 1 and 3 %.  Gov run outright LNER and Northern.

The industry has a volunteer redundancy programme running but now restrictions are on the way to be lifted, being short of train crew through attrition could be the next headache.

No one knows how the return to the office will play on so planning services is a nightmare.

Doesn’t help that all Grant Shapps says is spin and bullshit. 

Offline hornypunter

Pre pandemic our local service was busy and had the best service ever. I now see mainly empty trains and a frequency worthy of the 1980s.

Offline Markus


I feel the same way about train fares as I do about car parking charges.  They discourage travel and do not facilitate people getting their wallets and purses out.

Brent Cross Shopping Centre is a prime example.   Free parking and the place is packed to the rafters even though the cheapest shop in there is probably M&S.  At the end of the first lockdown,  London Designer Outlet in Wembley scrapped parking charges one weekend.  Once again it was absolutely heaving with people spending money. 

I’m not saying it’s the only reason but I think lower fares/charges would certainly help trade.


Offline RedKettle

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I feel the same way about train fares as I do about car parking charges.  They discourage travel and do not facilitate people getting their wallets and purses out.

Brent Cross Shopping Centre is a prime example.   Free parking and the place is packed to the rafters even though the cheapest shop in there is probably M&S.  At the end of the first lockdown,  London Designer Outlet in Wembley scrapped parking charges one weekend.  Once again it was absolutely heaving with people spending money. 

I’m not saying it’s the only reason but I think lower fares/charges would certainly help trade.

I agree on parking. Made a rare (these days) trip into Nottingham the other day and was shocked at the cost of parking. If they want people in the city centre they should provide cheaper and better parking. However I suspect the objective is people in without their cars, in which case they need far better public transport.

With trains the objective is profit for the operator rather than maximising passenger numbers. Personally I think they would do better on both if they simplify the fare structure and reduced the costs. However somewhere there will be an accountant with a spreadsheet …….

Offline lillythesavage

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I agree on parking. Made a rare (these days) trip into Nottingham the other day and was shocked at the cost of parking. If they want people in the city centre they should provide cheaper and better parking. However I suspect the objective is people in without their cars, in which case they need far better public transport.

With trains the objective is profit for the operator rather than maximising passenger numbers. Personally I think they would do better on both if they simplify the fare structure and reduced the costs. However somewhere there will be an accountant with a spreadsheet …….


Council parking charges, and selling of cheap local car parks for building, is a big reason for the demise of the high Street. The examples of places with no parking charges or not charging on a weekend explain why.

If you are going to buy big items or lots of shopping, you will not if you have to drag it home on public transport, I have friends with no car, someone always picks them up from a big shop.
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Offline King Nuts

I agree, it is a joke.  The system is designed to take advantage of people's ignorance.

 If you know your stuff, you can save a fortune.  For example, I bought three tickets for one journey and saved over 30% over one through ticket, all with the same train company. 

On long journeys, you can save a lot of money.  Often the key is to look at where the train departs after 09:30.  At that point cheaper tickets kick in.

It's true that you have to be on your toes, as regards ticket prices and purchases. I looked up some fares on Cross Country the other day, and clearly they are designed to dissuade people from actually travelling with them.



Offline anyfucker

Train tickets are a scandal in our country. Having lived in France, NL and Germany I can confirm that British train tickets are a riot worthy scandal. Tickets should literally be half the price they are. The fact that sites like External Link/Members Only exist because the system is so fukt that you can pay significantly less by splitting the journey into smaller chunks just adds to the madness.
It's the same with airline fares, could be cheaper to fly to Spain, back to London and on to e.g. Australia
Rail fares - my OAP ticket covers commuting after 9.30 anyway  :yahoo:

Offline Lou2019

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Pricing is ridiculously complex and expensive.  It particularly hits you if you do a trip in a group of say 4 and you realise you could save a fortune by using a car!

I use trains alot for work so am used to the system but even I got done for having the wrong ticket on a journey because I had misunderstood the online pricing for the return journey.  Had to pay £40 surcharge or something.

Make it simple and cheap.

Have you not heard of the group saver?
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Offline RedKettle

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Have you not heard of the group saver?

Not made simple and not offered automatically when you book say 4 tickets. Lots of conditions like has to be off peak. You also cannot use with a rail card.  Waste of time and even if you manage to claim the cost for 4 people still more than using your car. (Obviously that is a generalisation depending on journey etc but it has been the case for me on all occasions I have looked.)

There is a railcard for two people travelling together that I have had in the past that is actually useful.

Offline suttonporksword

In terms of the costs and revenues across all the franchises this is reported by the ORR. It varies considerably between franchises but the headlines are it's an incredibly expensive system to run and operate.

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Offline Watts.E.Dunn

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Yes well railways arent that cheap are they?, dealt  with them in the past they do seem to do very well at spending;!!

Mind you they do take a load of the road network so thats of some benefit, and yes they don't go everywhere we need..

Remember one day over near Bury St Edmunds in suffolk was waiting at this railway crossing and a  freight container train went by, i gave up counting the number of containers just one Diesel loco was pulling so on that day many lorries were off the A14 and thats not a bad thing;!

Offline King Nuts

In terms of the costs and revenues across all the franchises this is reported by the ORR. It varies considerably between franchises but the headlines are it's an incredibly expensive system to run and operate.

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Fascinating set of figures. Obvs the pandemic was in full swing during 2020-21 but even so...

I don't know the figures for long-distance rail travel this year, but I've been through Euston, Waterloo and Paddington in the rush hour at various times in the last few months, and have been surprised how quiet it's been.

And on the trains, I can see for myself how passenger numbers on mainline trains out of all three stations are still barely a quarter of what they were pre-2020.



Offline radioman33

Fares are too expensive,booking in advance some will say,it’s not cheap enough,can’t even get a seat either or run on time.

Offline Marmalade

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I’m sure there’s people who know a lot more about this than I do and can probably enlighten me. I seem to remember many many years ago that rail fares were kind of ‘normal’ — at least not controversially or outrageously expensive in terms of the general cost of living.

So what happened? Was it to do with privatisation? the lines and rolling stock just getting a bit past it? monumental errors by the companies responsible? or just too many people needing to use them?

I’m pleased we’ve got railways: I can go to London without endless baggage checks, airport parking, flight delays or the hassle of trying to get into the centre from one of London’s far-flung airports. They used to be pleasant.

They still are… until I pass Newcastle.

Offline lillythesavage

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Fares are too expensive,booking in advance some will say,it’s not cheap enough,can’t even get a seat either or run on time.

Nothing you say there is true or makes sense.  :lol:

If you read the thread the are examples of extremely cheap fares and stupid expensive ones too, you book a seat at time of booking on long routes, and they run on time mostly.

I usually book next day, sometimes I may get 2 days notice, so expect to be hit with high fares and driving instead, but it is not always the case, there is no rhyme or reason, and I have paid high fares expecting a full train and found it not to be the case.

TIP, do not book with TRAINLINE, you will get the same fare direct usually, use it to look up your journey and find the carrier, then go to the carriers website, it is much easier to deal with problems and delay money return if you have booked direct. You also save on a booking fee.
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Offline King Nuts

I’m sure there’s people who know a lot more about this than I do and can probably enlighten me. I seem to remember many many years ago that rail fares were kind of ‘normal’ — at least not controversially or outrageously expensive in terms of the general cost of living.

So what happened? Was it to do with privatisation? the lines and rolling stock just getting a bit past it? monumental errors by the companies responsible? or just too many people needing to use them?

I’m pleased we’ve got railways: I can go to London without endless baggage checks, airport parking, flight delays or the hassle of trying to get into the centre from one of London’s far-flung airports. They used to be pleasant.

They still are… until I pass Newcastle.

It's a good point. Years back, there was a simple fare structure. Day Return, Weekend Return and Single. That was it.

Last time I used the Long Island Railroad in New York, it was even simpler. One-way peak, and one-way offpeak. That was it.

But what happened to rail tickets is the same as what's happened to pretty much everything else in consumer land. Air fares, phone bills, electricity and gas bills, bank charges and all the rest. Absurd preponderance of fares and prices. Marketing people love all that shit because they can persuade business owners and managers that they're getting the best 'yield' for their product or service. But the reality is that it pisses people off.

Car manufacturers have done a similar-ish thing. BMW for instance make a huge range of cars, one for every possible segment or sub-segment of the market for cars. But when they're making 120 different models, some only selling a few hundred units a year, it can't be cost effective, so the price gets passed on to the mugs who buy their cars. If they made only three models - small, medium and large, for instance, and with minimal optional extras - then their cost per unit would come right down and buyers would be a lot clearer about what they're getting and thus happier. And slightly better off.

Same with BT and other phone suppliers. If one of them came along and said, right, this is the deal. A tenner for your line rental and all calls a penny a minute (or whatever.) That's it. No bundles, no packages, no paying for discount and all the other smokescreens. I'd be first in the queue.


The real problem with banks, phone companies and airlines etc is that in their endless pursuit for market share, they have a massive marketing spend, and somehow it's got to be paid for. Disguising and complicating their fares and prices is the best way of covering it.









Offline lillythesavage

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Another thing with late booking I have found, on occasion the First class fare has been lower than economy, or sometimes 5 to 10 quid more, like I said, no rhyme or reason.
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Offline JontyR

Its the inflexibility that provides the inconvenience for me. If you travel but are uncertain about the time you will return you book the earliest train back that you know you will definitely make. Now if you can come back earlier there is no provision for changing that ticket. There may be seats on an earleir train, you may be willing to pay any increase or a further admin fee. You may be freeing up a space on an overcrowded train. But there is no facility for doing this except to buy another ticket.

Although if anyone can advise of some low cost instant access punts within walking distance of Euston I'm all ears.

Offline petermisc

Another thing with late booking I have found, on occasion the First class fare has been lower than economy, or sometimes 5 to 10 quid more, like I said, no rhyme or reason.
This can happen with advance fares, where batches of tickets are issued at different fare levels.  If lots of people have booked up all the cheapest standard fare batches, but few first class tickets have been sold, so first class is still on the lowest price level.  The rhyme and reason is all those people who don't bother checking the first class fare. 

Offline petermisc

It's a good point. Years back, there was a simple fare structure. Day Return, Weekend Return and Single. That was it.
That fare structure is still there.  Anytime fares are the expensive ones that allow you to travel anytime, anyday, anytrain.  Then there are the day returns and off peak returns that limit your options.  On many routes, such as mine, these are pretty much all that are on offer.

On routes where there are options of travelling by different operators, these types of fare are shared between them, regardless of whose train you actually travel on.  So when you travel from Birmingham to London on an Avanti train, some of your fare will go to LNW, some to Chilterns, some to Cross-Country, and so on.  The train companies don't like this, so offer discounted advance tickets that are only valid on specific trains (their trains), so they don't have to share the fare.  You get a much discounted fare, but it is only valid on the specific train you booked for.  However, if you don't like being restricted to a specific train, the old BR fare structure is still there.


Offline petermisc

TIP, do not book with TRAINLINE, you will get the same fare direct usually, use it to look up your journey and find the carrier, then go to the carriers website, it is much easier to deal with problems and delay money return if you have booked direct. You also save on a booking fee.
Don't even bother using Trainline to look up the journey.  Any train company website will find you any train journey anywhere in the country, and sell you the relevant tickets.  Some are more user friendly than others, but they all use the same search engine.  The only exception is perhaps if you need split tickets, for which there is a dedicated website.

Offline Marmalade

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if anyone can advise of some low cost instant access punts within walking distance of Euston I'm all ears.

There's a Chinese-ish knock shop /massage parlour. Probably the locals will know exactly which one it is. Fairly instant (if she's not already busy giving a handjob) full strip optional.
I assume the good ol' days of cheapo knee-tremblers at the back of Kings X are a bygone luxury? Same for the brothel that was 100 yds from what used to be a spit and sawdust stripper bar t'other side. But the Chinese place is current. Not everyone's taste.

Offline lillythesavage

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There's a Chinese-ish knock shop /massage parlour. Probably the locals will know exactly which one it is. Fairly instant (if she's not already busy giving a handjob) full strip optional.
I assume the good ol' days of cheapo knee-tremblers at the back of Kings X are a bygone luxury? Same for the brothel that was 100 yds from what used to be a spit and sawdust stripper bar t'other side. But the Chinese place is current. Not everyone's taste.

There was a time every other lamp post had a resident local or away day girl leaning on it or walking between them, and phone boxes or shop windows would lead you to one of the run down houses or flats if you wanted more comfort.
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Offline Marmalade

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There was a time every other lamp post had a resident local or away day girl leaning on it or walking between them, and phone boxes or shop windows would lead you to one of the run down houses or flats if you wanted more comfort.

Indeed. I never used the phone boxes. The run down houses never seemed worth the hefty premium they usually asked. The fanny under every lamppost had a sort of charm though, the London of a bygone era.

Offline lillythesavage

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Indeed. I never used the phone boxes. The run down houses never seemed worth the hefty premium they usually asked. The fanny under every lamppost had a sort of charm though, the London of a bygone era.

I met a young lady who worked in one of the better houses, in the triangle between York Way and the Cali, in strange circumstances.

She booked a car from the high end company, you know, mini cab to the stars lol, I pulled up at the address and out she came, running and said " Drive" .

An outcall she did not fancy, but had bagged the fee, we became friends, lovely mixed race girl, lived in a council flat on the Hackney/Clapton borders, I gave her driving lessons.  :lol:
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Offline radioman33

Nothing you say there is true or makes sense.  :lol:

If you read the thread the are examples of extremely cheap fares and stupid expensive ones too, you book a seat at time of booking on long routes, and they run on time mostly.

I usually book next day, sometimes I may get 2 days notice, so expect to be hit with high fares and driving instead, but it is not always the case, there is no rhyme or reason, and I have paid high fares expecting a full train and found it not to be the case.

TIP, do not book with TRAINLINE, you will get the same fare direct usually, use it to look up your journey and find the carrier, then go to the carriers website, it is much easier to deal with problems and delay money return if you have booked direct. You also save on a booking fee.
When easyJet were flying from Southend to Scotland cheaper to get a flight than train.It should go back to being British Rail as private companies are just in it for profit.More expensive than Europe train fares.For older people who can’t use the internet it’s confusing to get the better deals.