18 year old mother sentenced to 9 years for appalling neglect :(

[sparkus]

Is the shortage caused by the never ending hoops of red tape needed to jump through or budget cuts? I am sure lots of suitable candidates for lots of jobs lose interest because of the process of getting the job, surely in the computer age things could be a hell of a lot quicker, road charging fines are printed instantly.

The shortage is caused by the lack of qualified social workers available at any time which means that caseloads increase and those left in the system just burn out and it gets worse and worse.  When caseloads increase then some children get overlooked and scandals happen (eg. Victoria Climbie).

It's not the like the acute shortage of HGV drivers (which is real) ie. it takes years to get someone qualified.

[winkywanky]

from what is in the papers, her behaviour had already been flagged up, and any one with a normal grasp of human behaviour would have acted. social workers like many state serfs are on healthy renumeration packages, and lets not talk about 100,000s the post before, you were claiming these cases were rare.

They all have behaviour flagged up, 100,000s of them  .

Trying to pick out which ones will actually kill/allow their kids to die is another matter. But of course you are the expert, coming from the Gorbals or wherever it was. I'm assuming you are using your own backyard as a national barometer again?

I claimed what cases were rare? Ones like this where a kid dies horribly and unnecessarily? Well yes when you consider the huge number of parents with social workers actively intervening then yes, these incidences of this severity are thankfully very rare.

Incidences of bad parenting of course, are rife.

[winkywanky]

I am certain a social worker was stabbed on Friday night.

In the world of willie, not only did they probably deserve it for being useless, they have nothing to worry about because they will immediately retire on a full works pension.

If I were in such a job (no bloody chance!) I would go for the death in service rouse, I hear it's highly lucrative.

[winkywanky]

Many go under the radar.

I was told Friday by an SB for want of a better description, of her brother, history of mental health and violence, 3 kids 3 years old and below, clumped the 3 year old and he required hospital treatment, the dumb mother covered for him and said the kid fell.

Putting her in the awful predicament of turning on family or trying to protect the kids.

Education has improved in recent years, but years of poor education, lack of industry and unskilled jobs or the opportunity to get a job and learn because you cannot get past the CV keyword check to even get an interview, add to that little job security these days and there is somewhat a lost generation that rely solely on benefits and pass that on to their kids.

I am sure, like me, there are lots of us that have never had a CV, got first jobs on a straight interview and remember a more industrial Britain where you could leave a job on Friday and start another on Monday if you were that way inclined.

To put perspective on my thoughts, my eldest could easily have been one of them, poor education and undiagnosed dyslexia, from a broken family from a young age and born to parents far too young, addicted to computer games, smoking dope in the park if he did go out, the thought of doing a CV more demoralizing.
It took several years, calling in lots of favors and buying some dubious certificates to change that around, not everyone has someone who bothers.

Before you state my negligence, I am well aware of it, I believed everything his mother told me until she could cover no more and was wrapped up in my own lunatic life.

Absolutely all of that.

Really appreciate your frankness Lily, posting that up cannot have been easy (let alone living it), but that's one of the benefits of an anonymous forum where most of us are in some way 'on the fringes'.

From what you say there, whatever your self-perceived shortcomings might have been, it's plain that you did all you could to turn things around, and you succeeded. Many kids are not lucky enough to have that dedication to turn it around.

[daviemac]

Is the shortage caused by the never ending hoops of red tape needed to jump through or budget cuts? I am sure lots of suitable candidates for lots of jobs lose interest because of the process of getting the job, surely in the computer age things could be a hell of a lot quicker, road charging fines are printed instantly.

In my experience, with them being off sick so often, I would say stress is a major factor.

A 16 year old with no training could print off road charging fines as a Saturday job, I wouldn't like to see them making life and death decisions where families are concerned though.

[lillythesavage]

The shortage is caused by the lack of qualified social workers available at any time which means that caseloads increase and those left in the system just burn out and it gets worse and worse.  When caseloads increase then some children get overlooked and scandals happen (eg. Victoria Climbie).

It's not the like the acute shortage of HGV drivers (which is real) ie. it takes years to get someone qualified.

There must be a way to reduce these times in this day and age, like getting security clearance before training ends or some sort of logical system to get things moving.

The HGV thing is very real, rates are climbing to levels not seen since the turn of the century, my old man told me 40 odd years ago, get an HGV license and you will always find work, might dust it off again, agency rates have climbed 80% approx in recent months, since Boris put a stop to the lobbying and told them to make the job more attractive.
A lot of red tape and training involved in that job too, and not just the driving side,  the pay should reflect it, not shareholder bank accounts.

[lillythesavage]

In my experience, with them being off sick so often, I would say stress is a major factor.

A 16 year old with no training could print off road charging fines as a Saturday job, I wouldn't like to see them making life and death decisions where families are concerned though.

The point is in this computer age, security checks and even training to some extent should be much less time consuming, the computer prints the road fines instantly, the week delay before getting them is the human factor getting them in the post.

Everything needed to criminal and background checks is done on a computer, why does it take so long that people are put into jobs before they are completed or out of work waiting months for them. Red tape needs to be sorted before anything else can be.

[daviemac]

It's not the like the acute shortage of HGV drivers (which is real) ie. it takes years to get someone qualified.

Like so many other jobs it's getting more difficult to get an HGV licence due to the hoops you have to jump through.

At one time at 21 you could apply for a provisional HGV licence without a car licence, take a medical, learn to drive in an artic and when you passed that qualitied you to drive a car as well.

Now to drive an artic you not only need a car license but you need to pass an HGV rigid test before progressing to the artic. Two lots of lessons and two separate tests. That coupled with the ridiculous drivers CPC qualification that's needed and has to be renewed every 5 years makes it quite difficult.

[winkywanky]

Some context around the current background checks scenario.

Someone I know worked for the police for nearly 40yrs. He left and started drawing his pension. Was gonna go back and do some freelance work for them, but because it was technically 'redundancy' (they use the pension scheme as an incentive for older guys to piss off and draw the pension so they can employ newbies on decreased remuneration package) he had to wait a while.

After that time was up he applied to do some work, but found he would have to go through all the background checks from scratch, as if he'd never worked for the police.

No criminal record, unblemished service for nigh on 40yrs.

Like a lot of other things, there is so much hysteria and so much regulation around these checks, so rigidly applied.

[sparkus]

Like so many other jobs it's getting more difficult to get an HGV licence due to the hoops you have to jump through.

At one time at 21 you could apply for a provisional HGV licence without a car licence, take a medical, learn to drive in an artic and when you passed that qualitied you to drive a car as well.

Now to drive an artic you not only need a car license but you need to pass an HGV rigid test before progressing to the artic. Two lots of lessons and two separate tests. That coupled with the ridiculous drivers CPC qualification that's needed and has to be renewed every 5 years makes it quite difficult.

The haulage industry keep saying the government are sleepwalking into disaster given the average age of most HGV drivers and the lack of new younger entrants.

Bear in mind though that we're asking young people to shoulder eye-watering debt of three years undergraduate and two years postgraduate study to become social workers.  I suspect the ire on here is more aimed at the senior directors of the profession who are comparably coining it in.

[winkywanky]

Is it not more and more apparent that 'opening up university education to all' by charging kids to study for degrees, has totally upset the employment applecart in this country? And given kids a high level of expectation about their job prospects which doesn't play out that way?

Loads more kids go to university now because it is 'expected' of them, a lot of the degrees aren't worth that much in reality, and kids end up saddled with debt. The whole thing has become ridiculously commercialised  .

I guess there's no going back now, but certainly the govt needs to step to help some home-grown potential keyworkers get the qualifications they need, like nurses and midwives for example, both of which are suffering bad shortages. And then we have to look abroad to fill the posts for something we should be able to provide from our own pool of young people.

[daviemac]

The haulage industry keep saying the government are sleepwalking into disaster given the average age of most HGV drivers and the lack of new younger entrants.

Bear in mind though that we're asking young people to shoulder eye-watering debt of three years undergraduate and two years postgraduate study to become social workers.  I suspect the ire on here is more aimed at the senior directors of the profession who are comparably coining it in.

I couldn't agree more, at the end of all the training they end up in a very stressful job anyway, like in this case some of the things they have to deal must be horrendous.

[sparkus]

Is it not more and more apparent that 'opening up university education to all' by charging kids to study for degrees, has totally upset the employment applecart in this country? And given kids a high level of expectation about their job prospects which doesn't play out that way?

Loads more kids go to university now because it is 'expected' of them, a lot of the degrees aren't worth that much in reality, and kids end up saddled with debt. The whole thing has become ridiculously commercialised  .

I guess there's no going back now, but certainly the govt needs to step to help some home-grown potential keyworkers get the qualifications they need, like nurses and midwives for example, both of which are suffering bad shortages. And then we have to look abroad to fill the posts for something we should be able to provide from our own pool of young people.

Couldn't agree more.

I had a semi-reg who was at uni doing sociology and said she wanted a social work diploma afterwards (but was struggling to see how she could) but the last time I saw her she was giving up the whoring and settling for what she considered a decent job in a call centre or something as it didn't seem worth it.

Lest we get 'political', it was New Labour who commercialised higher education in the misguided belief of access for all then the Tories who started spitefully charging nurses and even wannabe coppers (since abandoned) for their 'professional qualifications'.

[winkywanky]

Couldn't agree more.

I had a semi-reg who was at uni doing sociology and said she wanted a social work diploma afterwards (but was struggling to see how she could) but the last time I saw her she was giving up the whoring and settling for what she considered a decent job in a call centre or something as it didn't seem worth it.

Lest we get 'political', it was New Labour who commercialised higher education in the misguided belief of access for all then the Tories who started spitefully charging nurses and even wannabe coppers (since abandoned) for their 'professional qualifications'.

That's bloody awful and downright sad 

Tony Blair's big dream for all kids in the UK to be awfully clever never quite workded out, did it? It never could, even I could see that  .

How on earth could you think that the majority of kids could get University degrees and all get really good jobs?

Who is gonna be a plumber, policeman, builder, NameUsefulTradeHere?

There are loads of useful and well paid jobs which require a degree of intelligence to be done well, but not a Uni degree. It's bollocks.

And even if you do have 50% of UK kids getting a degree, that necessarily means you'll have to import masses of people from outside to do jobs we ought to be doing for ourselves. It was madness.

[sparkus]

That's bloody awful and downright sad 

Tony Blair's big dream for all kids in the UK to be awfully clever never quite workded out, did it? It never could, even I could see that  .

How on earth could you think that the majority of kids could get University degrees and all get really good jobs?

Who is gonna be a plumber, policeman, builder, NameUsefulTradeHere?

There are loads of useful and well paid jobs which require a degree of intelligence to be done well, but not a Uni degree. It's bollocks.

And even if you do have 50% of UK kids getting a degree, that necessarily means you'll have to import masses of people from outside to do jobs we ought to be doing for ourselves. It was madness.

TBH I think during that affluent decade plus of the 90s onwards until about 2009 a lot of parents pushed their kids towards uni in a kind of 'Keeping up with the Jones' way.  When I was there the onus was on three/four years of hedonistic partying rather than studying.

The graph will go downwards again, if you wanted three years of partying you'd be better off getting a well paid job/trade in your teens and living at home.  Many young people swerve drink and drugs these days anyway and all the shagging is done through apps not student discos.

The degree boom was accompanied by a belief in government, rightly or wrongly, that EU expansion would see immigration to the UK "in the tens of thousands".

That affluent decade or so is going to give us a hangover that three years of partying won't be anywhere near...

[lillythesavage]

Like so many other jobs it's getting more difficult to get an HGV licence due to the hoops you have to jump through.

At one time at 21 you could apply for a provisional HGV licence without a car licence, take a medical, learn to drive in an artic and when you passed that qualitied you to drive a car as well.

Now to drive an artic you not only need a car license but you need to pass an HGV rigid test before progressing to the artic. Two lots of lessons and two separate tests. That coupled with the ridiculous drivers CPC qualification that's needed and has to be renewed every 5 years makes it quite difficult.

I think it is actually more difficult than that these days, passing your car test once entitled you to drive 7.5 tonne trucks, where I and many others started out on the Hgv road, actually doing the job to see if you could live with it without any cost.

Now a car test pass does not entitle you to drive a 3.5 tonne van, or tow a trailer, and I think you have to at least do a 7.5 tonne test, maybe more before a rigid HGV. Once you pass that you can do artic, but artic does not entitle you to drive a rigid with a trailer over 8.5 tonnes gross weight.

The Cpc is another joke, you need to do 5 modules, but certain employers or site owner want proof of doing certain modules, in London the cycle aware one is often required, I have done it, half a day in the classroom and half a day cycling, in a big bloody group blocking the roads, a few were older than me and it nearly finished them off, amazed there were no heart attacks.

I only did the lorry tests in 1999, so had to do rigid first, passed that on Monday with 2 lessons, Artic on Thursday with a crash course, and Manual bus test first thing Friday morning with no lessons in a borrowed 53 seater that I drove to the test centre and then put L plates on.

Will never happen to anyone again, and I had to go to Ireland to get it done in a week, not a hope in the UK.

You can get HGV licenses @ 18 now if you are sponsored by a haulage company apparently, and years of fines for going a few minutes over driving hours looking for somewhere to stop safely, because someone decided 9 hours was the maximum except 2 days of 10, is now being extended by an hour because of the driver shortage. Well it is being discussed.

The problem with going through all the hoops to get your license, Cpc, driver card and a job, is the Army of Vosa inspectors and Police commercial vehicle units that are intent on finding faults, fining you, and giving you points, keeping it once you get it is not so easy, plenty of police funding for this army of coppers.

Why would anyone want a career truck driving these days?, though climbing wages might help. Many started driving courier vans after passing the test, regulations have broken the natural progression.

[winkywanky]

I think it is actually more difficult than that these days, passing your car test once entitled you to drive 7.5 tonne trucks, where I and many others started out on the Hgv road, actually doing the job to see if you could live with it without any cost.

Now a car test pass does not entitle you to drive a 3.5 tonne van, or tow a trailer, and I think you have to at least do a 7.5 tonne test, maybe more before a rigid HGV. Once you pass that you can do artic, but artic does not entitle you to drive a rigid with a trailer over 8.5 tonnes gross weight.

The Cpc is another joke, you need to do 5 modules, but certain employers or site owner want proof of doing certain modules, in London the cycle aware one is often required, I have done it, half a day in the classroom and half a day cycling, in a big bloody group blocking the roads, a few were older than me and it nearly finished them off, amazed there were no heart attacks.

I only did the lorry tests in 1999, so had to do rigid first, passed that on Monday with 2 lessons, Artic on Thursday with a crash course, and Manual bus test first thing Friday morning with no lessons in a borrowed 53 seater that I drove to the test centre and then put L plates on.

Will never happen to anyone again, and I had to go to Ireland to get it done in a week, not a hope in the UK.

You can get HGV licenses @ 18 now if you are sponsored by a haulage company apparently, and years of fines for going a few minutes over driving hours looking for somewhere to stop safely, because someone decided 9 hours was the maximum except 2 days of 10, is now being extended by an hour because of the driver shortage. Well it is being discussed.

The problem with going through all the hoops to get your license, Cpc, driver card and a job, is the Army of Vosa inspectors and Police commercial vehicle units that are intent on finding faults, fining you, and giving you points, keeping it once you get it is not so easy, plenty of police funding for this army of coppers.

Why would anyone want a career truck driving these days?, though climbing wages might help. Many started driving courier vans after passing the test, regulations have broken the natural progression.

Not saying you're old or anything Lily ( ) but the roads are very different now from how they were, even just ten years ago. A LOT busier and more congested.

Personally I hate over-regulation (some of it is kneejerk reaction over one or two high profile incidents) but one example you cite of prospective London HGV drivers having to spend a morning on a bike with an instructor is very interesting. It's actually not a bad idea: you may remember over two or three years there were some fairly frequent horrific incidences (sadly, usually of totally un-savvy and spacially-unaware young women) being basically squished by HGVs turning left. Sometimes the rider had crept up the inside at a red light with the driver unaware, other times the driver had overtaken and then somehow forgotten when turning left literally 10s later  .

I personally have driven 7.5 tonne trucks on my standard licence for work a few years ago, and certainly the first time, you had to have your wits about you and be aware of where your corners were. You could easliy come a cropper. But I guess it's the same old story, you get a few idiots who don't care enough, and they have an accident and mess it up for everyone.

Certainly though, if we are woefully short of HGV drivers after Brexit, then we need to come up with a plan to solve that. The govt will obvs in the first instance expect business to come up with a solution (more pay and more paid-for courses available) but if the problem persists then the govt will have to step in and help out somehow.

[sparkus]

I think it is actually more difficult than that these days, passing your car test once entitled you to drive 7.5 tonne trucks, where I and many others started out on the Hgv road, actually doing the job to see if you could live with it without any cost.

Now a car test pass does not entitle you to drive a 3.5 tonne van, or tow a trailer, and I think you have to at least do a 7.5 tonne test, maybe more before a rigid HGV. Once you pass that you can do artic, but artic does not entitle you to drive a rigid with a trailer over 8.5 tonnes gross weight.

The Cpc is another joke, you need to do 5 modules, but certain employers or site owner want proof of doing certain modules, in London the cycle aware one is often required, I have done it, half a day in the classroom and half a day cycling, in a big bloody group blocking the roads, a few were older than me and it nearly finished them off, amazed there were no heart attacks.

I only did the lorry tests in 1999, so had to do rigid first, passed that on Monday with 2 lessons, Artic on Thursday with a crash course, and Manual bus test first thing Friday morning with no lessons in a borrowed 53 seater that I drove to the test centre and then put L plates on.

Will never happen to anyone again, and I had to go to Ireland to get it done in a week, not a hope in the UK.

You can get HGV licenses @ 18 now if you are sponsored by a haulage company apparently, and years of fines for going a few minutes over driving hours looking for somewhere to stop safely, because someone decided 9 hours was the maximum except 2 days of 10, is now being extended by an hour because of the driver shortage. Well it is being discussed.

The problem with going through all the hoops to get your license, Cpc, driver card and a job, is the Army of Vosa inspectors and Police commercial vehicle units that are intent on finding faults, fining you, and giving you points, keeping it once you get it is not so easy, plenty of police funding for this army of coppers.

Why would anyone want a career truck driving these days?, though climbing wages might help. Many started driving courier vans after passing the test, regulations have broken the natural progression.

I know one or two who pull in some serious money but they've done it decades and they work weird hours and on shitty loads.  It was one of those moments when one introduced me to their mate one night, who was missing a chromosome or two and a few teeth to boot, not to mention his classy racist tats, who mentioned his pay packet at a rival firm.

Back to the nurses point, a newly qualified nurse is on just above £23K or so and is expected to pay for their 'degree' upfront and, according to the likes of Jeremy Hunt at the time, shouldn't expect the state to subsidise their 'professional' training.  A bus driver will pull in £25K at least after getting their PSV, which the bus company will pay for when he's training and passes on the cost to the user in the form of fares.  Why should WE fork out to subsidise that?

[MilleMiglia]

Some context around the current background checks scenario.

Someone I know worked for the police for nearly 40yrs. He left and started drawing his pension. Was gonna go back and do some freelance work for them, but because it was technically 'redundancy' (they use the pension scheme as an incentive for older guys to piss off and draw the pension so they can employ newbies on decreased remuneration package) he had to wait a while.

After that time was up he applied to do some work, but found he would have to go through all the background checks from scratch, as if he'd never worked for the police.

No criminal record, unblemished service for nigh on 40yrs.

Like a lot of other things, there is so much hysteria and so much regulation around these checks, so rigidly applied.

Been on the receiving end of a variation on that one.

[winkywanky]

I know one or two who pull in some serious money but they've done it decades and they work weird hours and on shitty loads.  It was one of those moments when one introduced me to their mate one night, who was missing a chromosome or two and a few teeth to boot, not to mention his classy racist tats, who mentioned his pay packet at a rival firm.

No one likes a racist (unless perhaps they are one) but that just goes to show how even ignorant twats like him (probably from a rough background) can achieve gainful employment doing HGV driving.

The other side of that coin is a young Black kid on a council estate would perhaps never think in a miilion years he could be an HGV driver (frankly, I have never seen one in all my years of driving), one of the possible reasons being that there's no-one driving a lorry that looks like him? Perhaps he could be one of the first then?

Infact, perhaps there's an opening there (with perhaps a little state intervention) to help solve a couple of problems at once? 

[willie loman]

No one likes a racist (unless perhaps they are one) but that just goes to show how even ignorant twats like him (probably from a rough background) can achieve gainful employment doing HGV driving.

The other side of that coin is a young Black kid on a council estate would perhaps never think in a miilion years he could be an HGV driver (frankly, I have never seen one in all my years of driving), one of the possible reasons being that there's no-one driving a lorry that looks like him? Perhaps he could be one of the first then?

Infact, perhaps there's an opening there (with perhaps a little state intervention) to help solve a couple of problems at once? 

occasionally you make an interesting point.

[winkywanky]

occasionally you make an interesting point.

Seldom do you speak any sense willie.

Your above post is one of those rare occasions...

Touché!   

[daviemac]

The Cpc is another joke, you need to do 5 modules, but certain employers or site owner want proof of doing certain modules, in London the cycle aware one is often required, I have done it, half a day in the classroom and half a day cycling, in a big bloody group blocking the roads, a few were older than me and it nearly finished them off, amazed there were no heart attacks.

I've been involved in the road haulage industry all my life and unless they've changed it very recently there's no practical aspect to the drivers CPC, it's an attendance course, sit there for 7 hours playing on your phone while some bloke rambles on and plays videos then get a certificate at the end of it. I've never heard of a cycle aware one. The CPC qualification card you send off for at the end doesn't say what modules you did.

The most ridiculous thing is, I hold a transport manager's CPC, one you do sit an exam for and is needed to actually run the haulage firm. Duties of a transport manager include ensuring divers are fully trained, are aware of and abide by all the rules and regulations, yet I still had to obtain the drivers CPC.

The 5 modules I did were 'Drivers hours + digital tachographs' twice, 'Traffic law' twice and 'load security + drivers safety at work' once.
 

[winkywanky]

I think Lily was saying the Cycle Aware one is specific to London davie, that's where those horrific accidents took place.

[sparkus]

No one likes a racist (unless perhaps they are one) but that just goes to show how even ignorant twats like him (probably from a rough background) can achieve gainful employment doing HGV driving.

The other side of that coin is a young Black kid on a council estate would perhaps never think in a miilion years he could be an HGV driver (frankly, I have never seen one in all my years of driving), one of the possible reasons being that there's no-one driving a lorry that looks like him? Perhaps he could be one of the first then?

Infact, perhaps there's an opening there (with perhaps a little state intervention) to help solve a couple of problems at once? 

My mate went to the toilet and we were stuck for anything to talk about and he asked me about the tats on my arm (one is a sleeve) and then enquired if I'd done it as a "cover up".  I asked what he meant and he said he'd had several tats from way back when covered over as they wouldn't go down well in polite society.  One on his arm in shoddy Indian ink said something like 'Enoch Forever' (I really doubt the deceased MP would be flattered by this).  We were later on joined by a black friend of mine as you mention from a rough as fuck estate once (who's done better for himself than anyone there) and it crossed my mind several times to ask the newly assembled company to start comparing tats, though I didn't know if he still subscribed to those views.

As you say, it's very doubtful my friend would have had HGV driving as an option for him back then (thankfully for him).

[lillythesavage]

I think Lily was saying the Cycle Aware one is specific to London davie, that's where those horrific accidents took place.

I do not think it is London specific, and Davie should know this but you can check which modules were done online, many businesses in London insist you have the cycle awareness module before collecting or delivering, it may happen in other cities too.

It is all a load of bollocks, as Davie says, and if you are self employed or the company refuse to pay for it, you are out of pocket twice, or giving up your weekends. London and hauliers delivering to London also have Fors to contend with, many will not accept delivery or collection from hauliers not having it.

It is a mix of everything, from driver education, vehicle condition and and how it is maintained, tax and vat records, how many hairs hanging out of your arse, that sort of thing, and Vosa or Police faults or infringements can lose it for you, and you pay several thousands a year for the privilege.

Three stages, Bronze, silver or gold. Some companies insist on trucks having gold only, get a couple of infringements and reduced to silver and contracts can be lost.

[winkywanky]

My mate went to the toilet and we were stuck for anything to talk about and he asked me about the tats on my arm (one is a sleeve) and then enquired if I'd done it as a "cover up".  I asked what he meant and he said he'd had several tats from way back when covered over as they wouldn't go down well in polite society.  One on his arm in shoddy Indian ink said something like 'Enoch Forever' (I really doubt the deceased MP would be flattered by this).  We were later on joined by a black friend of mine as you mention from a rough as fuck estate once (who's done better for himself than anyone there) and it crossed my mind several times to ask the newly assembled company to start comparing tats, though I didn't know if he still subscribed to those views.

As you say, it's very doubtful my friend would have had HGV driving as an option for him back then (thankfully for him).

You're quite right, Enoch would have been mortified to have been immortalised by a gormless racist tattoo on a chav! 

Racism is borne out of ignorance and suspicion. It actually goes both ways as I know you'll be aware, but of course when one group is outnumbered 97:3 then the 97 can do a whole lot more real damage than the 3, infact some of the damage from the 3 is on the 3, a very unfortunate fact  .

I do honestly believe that a lot of the historical stuff actually wouldn't happen now, the vast majority of the 97 understand. Unfortunately the perception is there though, even though most of that stuff was anywhere between 60 and 30 years ago. And I do somehow wonder whether the well-meaning BBC (and now others) actually do more harm than good with their constant reminders of it. Because I don't think 14yr old kids know about that, and if they become aware then then they probably think they are fucked, when they are in the main, not?

[winkywanky]

I do not think it is London specific, and Davie should know this but you can check which modules were done online, many businesses in London insist you have the cycle awareness module before collecting or delivering, it may happen in other cities too.

Apols, when you said: in London the cycle aware one is often required, I have done it, half a day in the classroom and half a day cycling, in a big bloody group blocking the roads, a few were older than me and it nearly finished them off, amazed there were no heart attacks. I perceived that to be a 'London thing'.

But certainly I guess London would be most likely to require it, it's in London's ancient and unsuitable streets that all those horrible accidents between enormous lorries and hapless female cyclists occurred?

[daviemac]

I think Lily was saying the Cycle Aware one is specific to London davie, that's where those horrific accidents took place.

If it's what I'm thinking of, a one-day Safer Urban Driving course, they were offered by Hammersmith & Fulham Council free from their Fulham depot, but as far as I know they've stopped doing them, well they had no dates set for 2020 and they haven't updated it. I didn't realised they'd included it in the CPC.

BTW it isn't nationwide, it is / was London specific.

External Link/Members Only

Happy to admit when I'm wrong, I've been checking and it is now part of the CPC and is nationwide.   

[winkywanky]

If it's what I'm thinking of, a one-day Safer Urban Driving course, they were offered by Hammersmith & Fulham Council free from their Fulham depot, but as far as I know they've stopped doing them, well they had no dates set for 2020 and they haven't updated it. I didn't realised they'd included it in the CPC.

I know very little of such (HGV) issues, however I do know that some other stuff came in like lorries having to have stickers over the rear saying things like 'If you can't see me then I can't see you' and 'Mind my blind spot'. Also, new lorries have proximity detectors I think, aimed at alerting drivers to the presence of cyclists?

I actually think most of the accidents were due to totally un-savvy and new cyclists taking to the road, what with all the publicity campaigns about cycling to keep fit and to reduce congestion on the roads. A lot of city workers went out and bought bikes but had little or no idea how to negotiate city streets safely  .

[Whore Master]

Read this yesterday day and thought “horrible cunt”
There been about three stories this week where kids have died at their mothers hands.
Chav bitches need hanging.

Captain, if the chav bitches were hung, we'd have an even worse selection. Look after number one, I say!

[daviemac]

I know very little of such (HGV) issues, however I do know that some other stuff came in like lorries having to have stickers over the rear saying things like 'If you can't see me then I can't see you' and 'Mind my blind spot'. Also, new lorries have proximity detectors I think, aimed at alerting drivers to the presence of cyclists?

I actually think most of the accidents were due to totally un-savvy and new cyclists taking to the road, what with all the publicity campaigns about cycling to keep fit and to reduce congestion on the roads. A lot of city workers went out and bought bikes but had little or no idea how to negotiate city streets safely  .

The stickers are optional, it;s just to let drivers behind know they can't be seen if they can't see the lorry mirrors.  Talking of mirrors HGVs ned more mirrors now than you can shake a stick at, 3 on the nearside, one at the front and at least 1 on the offside.

[winkywanky]

The stickers are optional, it;s just to let drivers behind know they can't be seen if they can't see the lorry mirrors.  Talking of mirrors HGVs ned more mirrors now than you can shake a stick at, 3 on the nearside, one at the front and at least 1 on the offside.

I should have been clearer, the stickers I'm talking about are actually specific to cyclists davie.

And all the mirrors are probably at least partly to do with cyclist safety too.

[winkywanky]

This kind of thing:

Hidden Image/Members Only

[daviemac]

I should have been clearer, the stickers I'm talking about are actually specific to cyclists davie.

And all the mirrors are probably at least partly to do with cyclist safety too.

Yeah, but they are optional and advisory, they aren't a requirement under road traffic regulations nor are they part of the MOT test.

You're right about the mirrors, they're to safeguard idiots.

[lillythesavage]

The stickers are optional, it;s just to let drivers behind know they can't be seen if they can't see the lorry mirrors.  Talking of mirrors HGVs ned more mirrors now than you can shake a stick at, 3 on the nearside, one at the front and at least 1 on the offside.

You have not seen the new ones then, look bloody stupid with no big door mirrors and a screen the same size blocking vision through the windscreen.

Did you check your modules online?  I think the dvla driving license check records them, from memory, had to check mine the first time round, the paperwork from the guy that done  the classes never arrived, the only one I have ever actually done is the cycle awareness lol, and as I did it after getting the first Cpc it counted for the second one too. Not answering questions on the subject lol.

[daviemac]

You have not seen the new ones then, look bloody stupid with no big door mirrors and a screen the same size blocking vision through the windscreen.

Did you check your modules online?  I think the dvla driving license check records them, from memory, had to check mine the first time round, the paperwork from the guy that done  the classes never arrived, the only one I have ever actually done is the cycle awareness lol, and as I did it after getting the first Cpc it counted for the second one too. Not answering questions on the subject lol.

I don't need to check online, they run out later this year and I know I have the required 5 of 7 hours each, even though they are 2 of one 2 of another and 1 single.

[lillythesavage]

I know very little of such (HGV) issues, however I do know that some other stuff came in like lorries having to have stickers over the rear saying things like 'If you can't see me then I can't see you' and 'Mind my blind spot'. Also, new lorries have proximity detectors I think, aimed at alerting drivers to the presence of cyclists?

I actually think most of the accidents were due to totally un-savvy and new cyclists taking to the road, what with all the publicity campaigns about cycling to keep fit and to reduce congestion on the roads. A lot of city workers went out and bought bikes but had little or no idea how to negotiate city streets safely  .

 I have pulled one out from 3/4s the way down the length, on the Callly at Kings Cross, in very slow moving traffic on a straight piece of road, 2 feet more and he would not have been unscathed by the last two axles, and big differentials. on a loaded tipper, not with the bike still wrapped round his legs.
Twat being stupid weaving in and out of traffic, inside one, outside the next, hit a big step on the van in front of me, luckily dead centre and lucky for him, I had seen him in my mirrors and not pass the van and stopped just in case to look under the truck, if I had not seen him weaving then in the mirrors it would be a different story.

I know drivers who have been involved in cycle deaths, you have no idea of the effect it had on most of them. I have several times punched twats for coming up the inside when turning left, with indicators and an audible warning saying " this vehicle is turning left" , one escaped the punch because of his age, when he squeezed up the inside at the lights, leant on the cab waiting for lights to change, with his hand about 2 inches from the speaker blaring out the above message.

It is not inexperience, it is a complete disregard for their own safety and ignorance, a complete disregard for other road users and a sense of entitlement, a small percentage of drivers have been convicted.

sorry rant over lol. Truck driving is not the easy job it seems.

[winkywanky]

Yeah, but they are optional and advisory, they aren't a requirement under road traffic regulations nor are they part of the MOT test.

You're right about the mirrors, they're to safeguard idiots.

Nevertheless, always a bit tragic when young women with good jobs and their lives ahead of them get squished into the tarmac though, or suffer horrific life-changing injuries. Even if they are being idiots.

[winkywanky]

I have pulled one out from 3/4s the way down the length, on the Callly at Kings Cross, in very slow moving traffic on a straight piece of road, 2 feet more and he would not have been unscathed by the last two axles, and big differentials. on a loaded tipper, not with the bike still wrapped round his legs.
Twat being stupid weaving in and out of traffic, inside one, outside the next, hit a big step on the van in front of me, luckily dead centre and lucky for him, I had seen him in my mirrors and not pass the van and stopped just in case to look under the truck, if I had not seen him weaving then in the mirrors it would be a different story.

I know drivers who have been involved in cycle deaths, you have no idea of the effect it had on most of them. I have several times punched twats for coming up the inside when turning left, with indicators and an audible warning saying " this vehicle is turning left" , one escaped the punch because of his age, when he squeezed up the inside at the lights, leant on the cab waiting for lights to change, with his hand about 2 inches from the speaker blaring out the above message.

It is not inexperience, it is a complete disregard for their own safety and ignorance, a complete disregard for other road users and a sense of entitlement, a small percentage of drivers have been convicted.

sorry rant over lol. Truck driving is not the easy job it seems.

I would never make excuses for twats weaving in and out of traffic, they are classic testosterone-fuelled Darwin candidates.

And I am fully aware of drivers who through no fault of their own have their vehicles involved in tragic deaths of pedestrians and cyclists, and are badly affected by that. Nevertheless in cities such as London the roads are incredibly dangerous for anyone not inside a vehicle, that's pretty well because the street plans were born 500 years ago or more and the environment couldn't have been more different from what it is now.

I'm not making excuses for anyone being wilfully stupid, they bring about their own demise and I have little or no sympathy for them.

As for your example of people ignoring safety measures such as trucks which now issue automatic verbal warnings (which is a fantastic idea), well again, they are twats.

I never said truck driving was easy either  .

All I said was there's loads of new people on the roads who aren't streetwise. Yes, it behoves them to do all they can to remain safe, but equally if there are an alarming number of horrific deaths then anything that can be done to stop that is a good idea.

In actual fact there were a couple of summers where this was happening every couple of weeks. There's very little of it in the news these days so I should imagine whatever measures are being taken are working, and that includes the publicity which makes all roadusers aware of the potential pitfalls.

[lillythesavage]

You did not say it was easy lol, just me pointing out it is not.

It is still happening but not as often, lots of cyclists think cycle lanes are not for them and they have a divine right to use the road. The Highway, west of the Limehouse link is a case in point, there is a cycle route, very well signed using cable street, but still they use the Highway.

The main reason for reduction in deaths is traffic does not move much and there is basically only one route anywhere, even on clear roads there are 20 mph speed limits and most roads are one lane instead of two. Single file slow moving traffic and less accidents happen.

It cost me 15 quid, but I drove to Fulham on Friday hitting the charging zone at about 8.30pm, gentleman me driving girls home lol, Tower Bridge and approaches were gridlocked, but the rest of London along the river deserted, no traffic, very few people, very few in bars, never seen a Friday night like it.
Had me thinking would it ever return to the way it was.

I stopped driving into London, going to the theatre, a meal, an evening shopping, whatever, once the C charge was changed to 10pm and weekends, not the only one, it is killing the economy in the long run, and the pandemic has nailed the lid down I think, there was no life on Friday evening, sure the night goers might appear after 10, but the early evening life is dead at the moment.

This is the main reason 14000 black cab drivers have given it in, that and Uber etc, the knowledge is redundant, you can only follow like sheep on the main roads, there are no cut throughs, every time you take a route you used to use, more roads are blocked, it is not about reducing pollution it is about money. To reduce pollution you keep traffic moving and ban polluting vehicles, but they say you can pollute if you pay, it is laughable really.

Tower bridge is a big tourist attraction, it was the only place I saw people in numbers, that the charging zone has perma blocked, pollution must be horrendous, bus routes running late. How long before it is another Hammersmith bridge with the traffic it is now carrying?

As far as I saw on a summer Friday, albeit a dull one, London is finished, I can only imagine the reopened theatres are struggling for custom, I did not see enough people between Tower Bridge and Fulham to fill one of them.

[superchamp]

Back on topic - when the evil bitch is released I'd put money on her being pregnant again within 3 months. Another tradgedy waiting to happen?

[winkywanky]

You did not say it was easy lol, just me pointing out it is not.

It is still happening but not as often, lots of cyclists think cycle lanes are not for them and they have a divine right to use the road. The Highway, west of the Limehouse link is a case in point, there is a cycle route, very well signed using cable street, but still they use the Highway.

The main reason for reduction in deaths is traffic does not move much and there is basically only one route anywhere, even on clear roads there are 20 mph speed limits and most roads are one lane instead of two. Single file slow moving traffic and less accidents happen.

It cost me 15 quid, but I drove to Fulham on Friday hitting the charging zone at about 8.30pm, gentleman me driving girls home lol, Tower Bridge and approaches were gridlocked, but the rest of London along the river deserted, no traffic, very few people, very few in bars, never seen a Friday night like it.
Had me thinking would it ever return to the way it was.

I stopped driving into London, going to the theatre, a meal, an evening shopping, whatever, once the C charge was changed to 10pm and weekends, not the only one, it is killing the economy in the long run, and the pandemic has nailed the lid down I think, there was no life on Friday evening, sure the night goers might appear after 10, but the early evening life is dead at the moment.

This is the main reason 14000 black cab drivers have given it in, that and Uber etc, the knowledge is redundant, you can only follow like sheep on the main roads, there are no cut throughs, every time you take a route you used to use, more roads are blocked, it is not about reducing pollution it is about money. To reduce pollution you keep traffic moving and ban polluting vehicles, but they say you can pollute if you pay, it is laughable really.

Tower bridge is a big tourist attraction, it was the only place I saw people in numbers, that the charging zone has perma blocked, pollution must be horrendous, bus routes running late. How long before it is another Hammersmith bridge with the traffic it is now carrying?

As far as I saw on a summer Friday, albeit a dull one, London is finished, I can only imagine the reopened theatres are struggling for custom, I did not see enough people between Tower Bridge and Fulham to fill one of them.

You don't need to tell me how hard it is driving a truck, as I mentioned earlier, I occasionally drove a 7.5 tonner on my 'basic' driving licence for work, it always made me very alert and observant, shall we say.

Traffic in London has become a self-perpetuating conundrum, you say the C charge is killing the economy, but is it not in effect a way of taxing a scarce resource? I bet the roads are still busy even with it, therefore without it the roads would be even worse.

That high level of congestion is alleviated to a degree when someone climbs on a bike, everyone just needs to respect each other while they're on the roads, that goes for someone on a bike, a pedestrian or a car/lorry driver.

But one fact is evident, if someone fucks up, the person not in a tin box is the one who gets squished/life-changing injuries. Rithpect, innit?

The trouble with London as I said earlier, is that although if there were a load more people on bikes which would make life nicer for everyone (healthier, possibly faster and less congestion), trying to make that work with street patterns which are so antiquated is incredibly hard. Also educationg people how to stay safe and make others safe.

[winkywanky]

Back on topic - when the evil bitch is released I'd put money on her being pregnant again within 3 months. Another tradgedy waiting to happen?

Probably, kid = mealticket/rent ticket

[sparkus]

Back on topic - when the evil bitch is released I'd put money on her being pregnant again within 3 months. Another tradgedy waiting to happen?

That was my first thought, she's still quite young and if she does half the sentence she'd be, what, not even mid-20s?

I might be wrong but there's no sanctions or protective measures that could be applied on her release.  For instance, that fucked up kid who stabbed people in Streatham was being tailed 24/7 as the police couldn't prevent his release.  In the eyes of the criminal justice system she'd have served her time and would be allowed to reintegrate back into society.

I'm guessing she'd also be given some kind of Karen Matthews/Maxine Carr new identity and sent to live somewhere where people don't know her (even though you can pretty much find Karen Matthews' address and current associates on the web).

[sparkus]

Probably, kid = mealticket/rent ticket

If she was given a new identity then she'd get all that anyway?

[winkywanky]

That was my first thought, she's still quite young and if she does half the sentence she'd be, what, not even mid-20s?

I might be wrong but there's no sanctions or protective measures that could be applied on her release.  For instance, that fucked up kid who stabbed people in Streatham was being tailed 24/7 as the police couldn't prevent his release.  In the eyes of the criminal justice system she'd have served her time and would be allowed to reintegrate back into society.

I'm guessing she'd also be given some kind of Karen Matthews/Maxine Carr new identity and sent to live somewhere where people don't know her (even though you can pretty much find Karen Matthews' address and current associates on the web).

Good point, and somewhat annoyingly she'd have to be given all kinds of expensive state assistance to facilitate that.

It always seems the more heinous the crime you commit, the more help you end up being given  .

[sparkus]

Good point, and somewhat annoyingly she'd have to be given all kinds of expensive state assistance to facilitate that.

It always seems the more heinous the crime you commit, the more help you end up being given  .

It's upholding the rule of law eg. protecting them from mob justice.

Look at the lengths the state went to protect the Bulger killers.

[winkywanky]

It's upholding the rule of law eg. protecting them from mob justice.

Look at the lengths the state went to protect the Bulger killers.

Of course. It's necessary. Just very galling.

[Aldebaran]

Is the shortage caused by the never ending hoops of red tape needed to jump through or budget cuts? I am sure lots of suitable candidates for lots of jobs lose interest because of the process of getting the job, surely in the computer age things could be a hell of a lot quicker, road charging fines are printed instantly.

I think, to be honest, that part of the problem of recruiting social workers is that very few want the job, no matter what money is offered. There is a belief that they will simply be banging their heads on a never ending brick wall, trying to help people who mostly resent it and don't want to be helped, that it's a bit like mole whacking and as fast as you solve one problem another one will appear, but if anything goes wrong you are the one who will be pilloried. It takes a certain mentality to even want the job when there are cushier options.