Transgender in sport

[Stevelondon]

Bit of a debate going on regarding the transgender issue in sport.
Laurel Hubbard the New Zealand weightlifter for example. Competing in the Olympics. I think if she were in with a chance of a medal it might have been a huge issue.

I might be wrong about this. But are the issues somewhat larger when it’s a man changing to a woman.

[Blackpool Rock]

Yes I think the female athletes have been complaining about this issue for a while now and I can understand why, it's all very well trying to accommodate everyone's freedom of choice etc but not if it gives them an unfair advantage and ruins someone else's achievement

From memory one of the concerns was that being born as a man and then converting to a woman means that that individual inherently has more muscle mass than if they had been born a woman.
I don't think changing from female to male would be such an issue as that individual would likely have less speed; strength etc

[hermanmunster]

There are no trangender (former women) wanting to compete in elite male sport because whatever hormone treatment is given, the elite sportsmen are still physically stronger. For this reason, it therefore follows that those born and formerly a man will still be unfairly stronger if allowed to compete in women's sport. I feel sorry for the women who have trained for years and could be deprived of a medal. Imagine if the entire Fiji mens 7s rubgy team decided they were going to compete as women at the next olympics - would anybody see that as fair?

[teddyking]

Unfair as fuck. One of the rule is to compete as a tranny is if your test level are below 10nml for the previous 12 months. So technically , you could live and train as a born Male for 30 odd years and the year before Olympic , can transition to a female and still compete in their category. The world has gone bonkers

[winkywanky]

Bit of a debate going on regarding the transgender issue in sport.
Laurel Hubbard the New Zealand weightlifter for example. Competing in the Olympics. I think if she were in with a chance of a medal it might have been a huge issue.

I might be wrong about this. But are the issues somewhat larger when it’s a man changing to a woman.

Indeed they are. The only issues infact, AFAIK?

Basically, mature men are stronger than mature women, post-puberty. They have stronger bones, stronger musculature, mainly due to having much higher levels of testosterone.

So a Trans woman who went through puberty as a male, will tend to be stronger than a genetic female of the same age. It doesn't really matter how hard a woman trains, the Trans woman will always have that advantage. Big efforts have been made to include Trans women in sport, mainly by getting them to take testosterone blockers to approach female levels (women do have some testosterone), but it's a very grey area to be able to say you put a Trans woman on a level playing field by doing that.

I have every respect for Trans women (God I've fucked enough of them and I love them like I love women) but IMO it's simply not fair to Cis-women to let Trans women compete against them. And that's despite my dislike of women's propensity to moan at just about anything, and to say men alway have it easier than they do. In this case they are right.

I'm not aware of any issues the other way round, I cannot imagine Trans men competing meaningfully with genetic men, although by adding exogenous testosterone they might get close. But then taking testosterone is actually doping, so not allowed in any case. I think the only problem might be shared changing rooms, if indeed that were considered a 'problem'  .

[badsin]

Bit of a debate going on regarding the transgender issue in sport.
Laurel Hubbard the New Zealand weightlifter for example. Competing in the Olympics. I think if she were in with a chance of a medal it might have been a huge issue.

I might be wrong about this. But are the issues somewhat larger when it’s a man changing to a woman.

This "lady" has now been disqualified from from the weight lifting event. Seemingly after three attempts she'd failed to display a satisfactory snatch 

[winkywanky]

The people I feel really sorry for are those very rare examples like Caster Semenya. South African athlete (now retired?)

Appearance-wise and I think also genetically, she is literally half-man, half-woman. She identifies as female and that life choice is entirely up to her, nevertheless she became totally dominant in female track & field within her discipline (400m?)

Without getting into the whole debate about whether Trans females actually choose to be female, or just are, Semenya certainly had no choice in the matter. Her case is very sad I think.

[winkywanky]

This "lady" has now been disqualified from from the weight lifting event. Seemingly after three attempts she'd failed to display a satisfactory snatch 

FFS     

[Squire Haggard]

This "lady" has now been disqualified from from the weight lifting event. Seemingly after three attempts she'd failed to display a satisfactory snatch 

 

[winkywanky]

There are no trangender (former women) wanting to compete in elite male sport because whatever hormone treatment is given, the elite sportsmen are still physically stronger. For this reason, it therefore follows that those born and formerly a man will still be unfairly stronger if allowed to compete in women's sport. I feel sorry for the women who have trained for years and could be deprived of a medal. Imagine if the entire Fiji mens 7s rubgy team decided they were going to compete as women at the next olympics - would anybody see that as fair?

Technical note: they don't need to identify as women, they win every bloody men's tournament there is already! 

I't not fair them turning up as Men, no-one has a chance anyway.

[lamboman]

This "lady" has now been disqualified from from the weight lifting event. Seemingly after three attempts she'd failed to display a satisfactory snatch 

  quality.
Governing bodies that allow transgender athletes have opened a pandoras box and the only losers will be women athletes.
And of course anybody that disagrees is shown the transphobic card.

[Ali Katt]

Why isn't there a trans only Olympics. No one expects say an amputee to compete with Usain Bolt.

[lamboman]

Why isn't there a trans only Olympics. No one expects say an amputee to compete with Usain Bolt.

There's no money in it.

[Ali Katt]

There's no money in it.

Not yet. I think there's more potential money in it than women's football, at least in the UK.

[Stevelondon]

The people I feel really sorry for are those very rare examples like Caster Semenya. South African athlete (now retired?)

Appearance-wise and I think also genetically, she is literally half-man, half-woman. She identifies as female and that life choice is entirely up to her, nevertheless she became totally dominant in female track & field within her discipline (400m?)

Without getting into the whole debate about whether Trans females actually choose to be female, or just are, Semenya certainly had no choice in the matter. Her case is very sad I think.

Absolutely agree, very sad indeed. Its not like its her fault.
I understood she was given the chance to take drugs to supress her testosterone levels so she could carry on competing, but she refused.
(800 Metres methinks)

[lillythesavage]

Not yet. I think there's more potential money in it than women's football, at least in the UK.

Not using punting as an example, once the meat and two veg is a plastic mango, the money dries up with it

[lamboman]

Absolutely agree, very sad indeed. Its not like its her fault.
I understood she was given the chance to take drugs to supress her testosterone levels so she could carry on competing, but she refused.
(800 Metres methinks)

There were 3 of "her" gender athletes in the Rio 800m which is no coincidence.
You've only got to look at any of them to see they are more male than female let alone the medical evidence.

[PepeMAGA]

Few things,
Physical advantages from a lifetime of exposure to testosterone aside, The max testosterone allowed isn't even that low, its probably average for a 43 year old man.... And far higher than all natural women.
As WW says you won't get men that used to be women competing because they would be using testosterone, which is class as doping.
They don't want a separate trans Olympics because that would suggest they aren't normal women.
From my point of view they should be in the paralympics. If you require constant medication for a condition and or surgery, is it different from some of the other people competing in that?

[Blackpool Rock]

Few things,
Physical advantages from a lifetime of exposure to testosterone aside, The max testosterone allowed isn't even that low, its probably average for a 43 year old man.... And far higher than all natural women.
As WW says you won't get men that used to be women competing because they would be using testosterone, which is class as doping.
They don't want a separate trans Olympics because that would suggest they aren't normal women.
From my point of view they should be in the paralympics. If you require constant medication for a condition and or surgery, is it different from some of the other people competing in that?

Can you imagine the  if anyone actually suggested that thought  They'd be out on their ear quick sharp.

As I previously posted it's all well and good accepting somebody for who they are or feel they are however this clearly gives them a huge advantage and it's unfair.
The problem is that these days everyone just clamours to jump on board to avoid insulting anyone's sensibilities etc but the end result is we all just end up sticking our heads in the sand, it's the classic "Kings robes"

Perhaps there will be a solution found eventually as it's affecting female athletes whereas if it was affecting male athletes it would be deemed they were all trans phobic etc and they would be told to live with it

[Marmalade]

It did rather deflate the excitement when she repeatedly just dropped the thing. Clearly wasn’t in with a chance. One answer — though more work needs to be done — will probably be to examine it on a per sport basis. Shooting is not likely to be affected. Many others will be to a smaller or greater extent. The other option is just to say ‘no’ — but IOC would suffer massive cancel culture like a lodestone round its neck. It would send a message and I’m not sure it would be the wrong message. The core values of the Olympics need to be much clearer and not just with sloganism. Is it about human physical excellence, the well-trained body guided by a well-attuned mind? That would rule out some of the sports I think, much less transgenders.

[NotTooOld4It]

Indeed they are. The only issues infact, AFAIK?

Basically, mature men are stronger than mature women, post-puberty. They have stronger bones, stronger musculature, mainly due to having much higher levels of testosterone.

So a Trans woman who went through puberty as a male, will tend to be stronger than a genetic female of the same age. It doesn't really matter how hard a woman trains, the Trans woman will always have that advantage. Big efforts have been made to include Trans women in sport, mainly by getting them to take testosterone blockers to approach female levels (women do have some testosterone), but it's a very grey area to be able to say you put a Trans woman on a level playing field by doing that.

I have every respect for Trans women (God I've fucked enough of them and I love them like I love women) but IMO it's simply not fair to Cis-women to let Trans women compete against them. And that's despite my dislike of women's propensity to moan at just about anything, and to say men alway have it easier than they do. In this case they are right.

I'm not aware of any issues the other way round, I cannot imagine Trans men competing meaningfully with genetic men, although by adding exogenous testosterone they might get close. But then taking testosterone is actually doping, so not allowed in any case. I think the only problem might be shared changing rooms, if indeed that were considered a 'problem'  .

No such thing as a "cis-woman. There are "women" and "trans women".

[radioman33]

I saw this weightlifter get eliminated yesterday and thank god for that it’s just not right.Your born either a man or woman so don’t have this in sport.

[Payyourwaymate]

Why isn't there a trans only Olympics. No one expects say an amputee to compete with Usain Bolt.

From my limited understanding of people that change genders, I think they do not want to identify as a separate group, they want to become part of the existing group and identify as them even though genome wise, they do not align with the said group. It's a real life 2+2=5.

[Ali Katt]

From my limited understanding of people that change genders, I think they do not want to identify as a separate group, they want to become part of the existing group and identify as them even though genome wise, they do not align with the said group. It's a real life 2+2=5.

It's not an even playing field, pun intended. If they want equality let's have mixed boxing,.

[winkywanky]

It did rather deflate the excitement when she repeatedly just dropped the thing. Clearly wasn’t in with a chance. One answer — though more work needs to be done — will probably be to examine it on a per sport basis. Shooting is not likely to be affected. Many others will be to a smaller or greater extent. The other option is just to say ‘no’ — but IOC would suffer massive cancel culture like a lodestone round its neck. It would send a message and I’m not sure it would be the wrong message. The core values of the Olympics need to be much clearer and not just with sloganism. Is it about human physical excellence, the well-trained body guided by a well-attuned mind? That would rule out some of the sports I think, much less transgenders.

Good point.

Although, giving a gun to a Trans girl having a hissy fit might not be such a good idea   

[winkywanky]

No such thing as a "cis-woman. There are "women" and "trans women".

Well I guess that's an opinion.

[Matrix]

Utterly redundant term.

[Payyourwaymate]

It's not an even playing field, pun intended. If they want equality let's have mixed boxing,.

It would be a one sided slaughter lol.

[anyfucker]

Two teenagers from Namibia qualified for the women's 200-meter final despite being banned from some other events because of their natural hormone levels.
They were found to have natural testosterone levels that are higher than a limit set by the sport for female athletes, prompting an immediate ban under the regulations.
But the relatively new regulations only cover certain races — from 400 meters to one mile — meaning Mboma and Masilingi are allowed to compete in the 200 

There's the Canadian footballer Quinn who will win a medal as Canada won in the semi finals.

[winkywanky]

Two teenagers from Namibia qualified for the women's 200-meter final despite being banned from some other events because of their natural hormone levels.
They were found to have natural testosterone levels that are higher than a limit set by the sport for female athletes, prompting an immediate ban under the regulations.
But the relatively new regulations only cover certain races — from 400 meters to one mile — meaning Mboma and Masilingi are allowed to compete in the 200 

You see that's unfair. If they are genetic women but have naturally-occurring high levels of testosterone, why should they be DQed as a result of Trans women having the rule book rewritten for them? There was never such a rule before, and I believe that doping control can make a clear distinction between testosterone your body produces, and that added to your body. It's madness  .

[lamboman]

Utterly redundant term.

+1
 I suspect Mboma and Masilingi have high testosterone levels because they have a set of bollocks like Semanya,as this is the biological reason men are stronger than women I'd say they have an unfair advantage.

[WARSZAWA16]

Shame about Laurel Hubbard in the Olympics.
She worked her bollocks off to get there.

[winkywanky]

Shame about Laurel Hubbard in the Olympics.
She worked her bollocks off to get there.

    

[winkywanky]

Joking aside though, I thought the Russian athlete who reduced her testosterone the hard way desrves a lot of respect.

What was her name again? Umm, I think it was Irina Bolokov or something?

[Ali Katt]

Joking aside though, I thought the Russian athlete who reduced her testosterone the hard way desrves a lot of respect.

What was her name again? Umm, I think it was Irina Bolokov or something?

Ivana Knocabolokov surely?

[winkywanky]

Ivana Knocabolokov surely?

 

And her Trans sister (transistor?) Juan(ita) Bolokinsitu.

[Blackpool Rock]

And her Trans sister (transistor?) Juan(ita) Bolokinsitu.

Was she related to Whoja Nickya Bollocksoffof 

[scutty brown]

Just for interest..........the British Army used to get Kelly Holmes to compete in the men's races because they didn't want her discouraging the other women
She's  obviously not transgender, but she's one woman who could compete with and beat men

[PepeMAGA]

+1
 I suspect Mboma and Masilingi have high testosterone levels because they have a set of bollocks like Semanya,as this is the biological reason men are stronger than women I'd say they have an unfair advantage.

Yeah, that's isn't much about it on the Web, but I understand they are intersex so have been producing testosterone since before they were born.

Think there needs to be a reality check. For some reason there seems to be this thing where people feel they are entitled to compete in the Olympics. How many people actually ever get to do that? It's usually because you agent good enough or aren't in the right circles. If it really ant less fair not being able to compete because you have an unfair advantage over the majority of professional women that are biologically female?

Interesting topic though eh?

[winkywanky]

Was she related to Whoja Nickya Bollocksoffof 

This is just getting silly now! 

[Marmalade]

This is just getting silly now! 

I had been dozing a bit when I saw the headline on the Beeb that Laurel Hubbard was “hanging up her boots”. For a moment I thought it said she was hanging up her boobs, which I suppose would mean something rather dramatically different.

Good luck to her/him/them — whatever gets hung up over it all… Bit of an anticlimax really.

[Malvolio]

Yeah, that's isn't much about it on the Web, but I understand they are intersex so have been producing testosterone since before they were born.

Think there needs to be a reality check. For some reason there seems to be this thing where people feel they are entitled to compete in the Olympics. How many people actually ever get to do that? It's usually because you agent good enough or aren't in the right circles. If it really ant less fair not being able to compete because you have an unfair advantage over the majority of professional women that are biologically female?

Interesting topic though eh?

The two Namibian women probably had no idea about being intersex until they started to compete in athletics and get drug-tested.  It's got to be one hell of a shock to find out, and then have it plastered over the internet.

[Marmalade]

I like to watch both men and women — and to be honest most of it is a man’s sport. Women do sometimes add something special though, and I don’t just mean the occasional and most delightful inundatio camelorum!