Smart Meters

[winkywanky]

Pot - Kettle

Listen pal - I emulate the prose style of people like you. Take a step back, unplug from the guardian / telegraph etc for a week, and then have a think about things. Then you too can be a "sneering cunt" too looking down of fools like you who swallow lies and propaganda dished up by the media to push State narratives like a ladyboy swallows old german mens spunk.

 

I don't think I'm your pal, do you? 

No. I talk nicely to people, and then when they talk like sneering cunts I give them back the same. If you don't like it, piss off 

[hamchang]

I don't think I'm your pal, do you? 

No. I talk nicely to people, and then when they talk like sneering cunts I give them back the same. If you don't like it, piss off 

Righty oh. You really need to change your avatar though. Peter Cook would laugh his left bollock off at all the shite you spew. 

[winkywanky]

Righty oh. You really need to change your avatar though. Peter Cook would laugh his left bollock off at all the shite you spew. 

He would probably think you're a joke.

Anyway, who's the comedian in your avatar, or perhaps it's you, you are a comedian aren't you?

[petermisc]

Bearing in mind the very compelling recent events surrounding global warming, do you not think it's a good idea to encourage a greener energy policy in the UK? It can eventually work out cheaper than what we currently have too, after initial investment. And if you want people to pay more for Green energy than they do for fossil fuels, how do you think that's going to come about? it won't.

I do think that we need to do something.  But I am not trying to kid myself that it is going to work out cheaper, at least not until all the necessary infrastructure has been paid for, and that is going to take a long time.

I don't want people to pay more for Green energy, but the uncomfortable truth is that they are going to have to.  All the investment needed to support it on a large-scale is going to have to be paid for by someone.  The only way that Green energy is going to be cheaper than fossil fuels, is if fossil fuels are taxed so highly as to make them uncompetitive.  It is going to be a brave government that does that.

[winkywanky]

I do think that we need to do something.  But I am not trying to kid myself that it is going to work out cheaper, at least not until all the necessary infrastructure has been paid for, and that is going to take a long time.

I don't want people to pay more for Green energy, but the uncomfortable truth is that they are going to have to.  All the investment needed to support it on a large-scale is going to have to be paid for by someone.  The only way that Green energy is going to be cheaper than fossil fuels, is if fossil fuels are taxed so highly as to make them uncompetitive.  It is going to be a brave government that does that.

If indeed it does work out more expensive, what would you rather, £200 a year on your energy bill or the sea lapping at your front door?

[Blackpool Rock]

If all you build is a wind farm, then maybe not.  But how are you going to maintain the supply when the wind isn't blowing?  If you have to build a wind farm AND something else as backup (such as a battery farm, or a hydrogen storage scheme), then I very much doubt that the two combined are going to be cheaper than one gas power station.

Yes I agree that batteries are possibly not the answer as they are still relatively expensive and the metals etc they require are quite nasty stuff and in themselves polluting to extract etc.

I would have thought hydrogen storage was more realistic but there are other options such as pumping water up to reservoirs using excess energy to then provide hydro electric during peak times

Another area that needs to be explored is wave / tidal systems as the tides are a known and reliable entity

Something has to change and as they say necessity is the mother of invention

Of course all this is a drop in the ocean on a global scale if we only do it in the UK and China keep building more coal fired power stations (I believe they are also building grren energy sources), the other key thing here is to get emerging countries to build green systems from the start however they may need help with this as a poor country will do it the cheapest way they can when they have poverty and people hungry

[Blackpool Rock]

I do think that we need to do something.  But I am not trying to kid myself that it is going to work out cheaper, at least not until all the necessary infrastructure has been paid for, and that is going to take a long time.

I don't want people to pay more for Green energy, but the uncomfortable truth is that they are going to have to.  All the investment needed to support it on a large-scale is going to have to be paid for by someone. The only way that Green energy is going to be cheaper than fossil fuels, is if fossil fuels are taxed so highly as to make them uncompetitive.  It is going to be a brave government that does that.

Perhaps you missed the link I posted about green energy being cheaper as it's been scaled up, it is a bit of a long read but there is a summary at the start that well summarises it 

External Link/Members Only

[teddyking]

Yes I agree that batteries are possibly not the answer as they are still relatively expensive and the metals etc they require are quite nasty stuff and in themselves polluting to extract etc.

I would have thought hydrogen storage was more realistic but there are other options such as pumping water up to reservoirs using excess energy to then provide hydro electric during peak times

Another area that needs to be explored is wave / tidal systems as the tides are a known and reliable entity

Something has to change and as they say necessity is the mother of invention

Of course all this is a drop in the ocean on a global scale if we only do it in the UK and China keep building more coal fired power stations (I believe they are also building grren energy sources), the other key thing here is to get emerging countries to build green systems from the start however they may need help with this as a poor country will do it the cheapest way they can when they have poverty and people hungry

[/b]

True but IMO it’s only fair for poor countries to get their fair share of using cheap cold to build their economy. I feel UK And USA are slyly making a big deal out of green energy to prevent China’s rapid rise from their polluting activities

[tynetunnel]

If indeed it does work out more expensive, what would you rather, £200 a year on your energy bill or the sea lapping at your front door?

I’m a long way from the sea and atop a big hill. I’ll take my chances! 

What does annoy me is all the hype and bollocks surrounding this. Looking at generation stats right now, some 45.5% of electricity is being generated from fossil fuel, including 3.4% from coal. It’s the summer. It wasn’t many months ago that the grid people were making a whole load of PR about how the UK had not used any coal in power generation for the first time ever, and it was x number of days. How wonderful it was that coal - the dirtiest fuel - would be phased out. If we have to burn it in August you can be damn sure we will burn it during the winter.

In total 61% of our electricity right now is from fossil fuel or via the interconnectors from overseas (which may or may not be from fossil fuel) leaving 39% from renewables, nuclear, pumped storage, biomass or other.

We have a long way to go!

Hidden Image/Members Only

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I’m a long way from the sea and atop a big hill. I’ll take my chances! 

What does annoy me is all the hype and bollocks surrounding this. Looking at generation stats right now, some 45.5% of electricity is being generated from fossil fuel, including 3.4% from coal. It’s the summer. It wasn’t many months ago that the grid people were making a whole load of PR about how the UK had not used any coal in power generation for the first time ever, and it was x number of days. How wonderful it was that coal - the dirtiest fuel - would be phased out. If we have to burn it in August you can be damn sure we will burn it during the winter.

In total 61% of our electricity right now is from fossil fuel or via the interconnectors from overseas (which may or may not be from fossil fuel) leaving 39% from renewables, nuclear, pumped storage, biomass or other.

We have a long way to go!

Hidden Image/Members Only

We do indeed! Interesting paper there from Blackpool rock BTW..

Not sure iof Boimass shoul dbe considered Green IIRC iots wood pellets so a Carbon producer..

Intresting re interconnecotrs espcailly the French one, it may as well be thought of as a 2 GW Nuclear offshore station as France is mainly Nuke powered as can be seen from the Froggie version of Gridwatch.. Very Green already maily Nuclear and Hydro, those Alps!...

 External Link/Members Only

[tynetunnel]

We do indeed! Interesting paper there from Blackpool rock BTW..

Not sure iof Boimass shoul dbe considered Green IIRC iots wood pellets so a Carbon producer..

Intresting re interconnecotrs espcailly the French one, it may as well be thought of as a 2 GW Nuclear offshore station as France is mainly Nuke powered as can be seen from the Froggie version of Gridwatch.. Very Green already maily Nuclear and Hydro, those Alps!...

 External Link/Members Only

In National Grid live status (grid.iamkate.com) biomass isn’t shown as renewable, falling under ‘other’. Ferrybridge I understand imports the pellets it burns by ship from North America ffs!

The French are doing considerably better than us in not burning fossil fuels. They are also using considerably more electricity than us.

Uk population: 68 million : Electricity demand now: 31.00 GW
France population 65 mill : Electricity demand now: 47.55 GW

I wonder what they are doing with it all? To be fair they are exporting 2.4 GW of theirs to us!

[Watts.E.Dunn]

I think you'll find thjat many years ago they took the decision to rely on Electric heating and hence the large number of Nuclear stations. Plus all those alpine water sorces a very Green country

[tynetunnel]

I doubt, being August, that they all have their heating cranked up! But they are using considerably more electricity than their cousins over the Channel

[Blackpool Rock]

I doubt, being August, that they all have their heating cranked up! But they are using considerably more electricity than their cousins over the Channel

Yes but we also need to factor in that if a lot of France just use electricity and not gas then they will be heating water for baths / showers (Do they wash    ) using electric then cooking with electric etc, we'd need to know the total energy consumption I guess 

[Blackpool Rock]

In National Grid live status (grid.iamkate.com) biomass isn’t shown as renewable, falling under ‘other’. Ferrybridge I understand imports the pellets it burns by ship from North America ffs!

The French are doing considerably better than us in not burning fossil fuels. They are also using considerably more electricity than us.

Uk population: 68 million : Electricity demand now: 31.00 GW
France population 65 mill : Electricity demand now: 47.55 GW

I wonder what they are doing with it all? To be fair they are exporting 2.4 GW of theirs to us!

Found this link which shows France using more overall energy than the UK despite having slightly less population, looks like about 25% more than us  on average

External Link/Members Only

[conrod]

Found this link which shows France using more overall energy than the UK despite having slightly less population, looks like about 25% more than us  on average

External Link/Members Only

The difference is likely due to the amount of energy used by the manufacturing industry.

[Blackpool Rock]

The difference is likely due to the amount of energy used by the manufacturing industry.

Yeah could be right as we don't actually make much these days 

[radioman33]

Majority of people don’t want one.Prepayment customer can benefit by having one as means they can top up by their phone Instead of walking to the shops or decide to pay by direct debit saving on cheaper tariff.

[winkywanky]

I’m a long way from the sea and atop a big hill. I’ll take my chances! 

What does annoy me is all the hype and bollocks surrounding this. Looking at generation stats right now, some 45.5% of electricity is being generated from fossil fuel, including 3.4% from coal. It’s the summer. It wasn’t many months ago that the grid people were making a whole load of PR about how the UK had not used any coal in power generation for the first time ever, and it was x number of days. How wonderful it was that coal - the dirtiest fuel - would be phased out. If we have to burn it in August you can be damn sure we will burn it during the winter.

In total 61% of our electricity right now is from fossil fuel or via the interconnectors from overseas (which may or may not be from fossil fuel) leaving 39% from renewables, nuclear, pumped storage, biomass or other.

We have a long way to go!

Hidden Image/Members Only

I think it's safe to say that the proportions of Green and Fossil energy coming out of our power sockets will vary greatly over the course of a year. Even you saying we'll necessarily burn more coal in winter than in summer, I don't know? The wind blows a lot more in winter, certainly more in Autumn and Spring as the seasons wax and wane. So who knows, I certainly don't  .

I just think it's obvious that we need to move away from burning Fossil fuels as quickly as is reasonably possible (and without disadvantaging ourselves ecomonically compared with our competitors), and over the last few years we have certainly made great strides in doing so.

[winkywanky]

Found this link which shows France using more overall energy than the UK despite having slightly less population, looks like about 25% more than us  on average

External Link/Members Only

The French of course, are liable to be full of hot air.

[Marmalade]

The French of course, are liable to be full of hot air.

Another reason to put windfarms in the English Channel!


...And they could be equipped with immigrant deterrent devices!!

[winkywanky]

We may have to consider more tangible deterrents very soon, after Afghanistan.

[Marmalade]

We may have to consider more tangible deterrents very soon, after Afghanistan.

Indeed, and I have just suggested one on the Afghanistan thread.

[ruggedscot]

That is actually a very good question.  As all the power that is currently supplied by petrol, diesel and natural gas sources gradually goes over to electric, the load on both the national and local supply networks is going to increase significantly.  Likewise the grid is currently configured for its current power sources, and loads.  Which is why new power stations tend to get built where there is an old one.  The national grid isn't like some giant ring-main - you can't just build a new power station and run a spur to the closest grid point, and hope that the power will find its way to where its needed over the existing network.

We are going to need substantial investment in re-configuring and bolstering the grid, both at national and local level.

Actually you can and they do. The grid is stand alone and it could very well be used and is used to supply long distances. The UK isnt that big of a country so its feasable to run Inverness from a power station in Plymouth. The generaton being provided across the country provides the power that is taken across the country over the grid.. When we had sizewll trip and then longannet two powerstations in different parts of the country it nearly toppled the grid - the frequency dropped and that cause issues. it was load shed load shed load shed till they got control again.

External Link/Members Only

The grid is like a ballon - you have to keep that ballon pressurised. All the generation blows into that ballon, and all the loads take pressure from that ballon. if the blow in is less than what is taken then the ballon deflates - frequency drops. simply overview. but effective.

we have lots more feed in around the country and that pressure is maintained. they want a quick way to load shed to match the load to the generation and that can be done more effectively via smart meters. it will also let them be able to create tariffs with costs linked to likelyhood of power being dropped, and also allow them to ensure that critical home feeds are left connected as long as they can. Health board notifies untility that mrs mopps at 15 arcadia avenue has an iron lung etc...

[tynetunnel]

iron lung

Two words you seldom hear together anymore 

[petermisc]

Perhaps you missed the link I posted about green energy being cheaper as it's been scaled up, it is a bit of a long read but there is a summary at the start that well summarises it 

External Link/Members Only

That only considers raw energy prices.  It does not consider the costs necessary to ensure integrity of supply (having to provide and maintain a backup supply for when the sun isn't shining), or the costs of reconfiguring the network to accept green energy supplies.

[petermisc]

The French are doing considerably better than us in not burning fossil fuels. They are also using considerably more electricity than us.

Uk population: 68 million : Electricity demand now: 31.00 GW
France population 65 mill : Electricity demand now: 47.55 GW

I wonder what they are doing with it all? To be fair they are exporting 2.4 GW of theirs to us!

That is only considering electricity, not total power.  I suspect that we burn more domestic gas than the French do.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

When we had sizewll trip and then longannet two powerstations in different parts of the country it nearly toppled the grid - the frequency dropped and that cause issues. it was load shed load shed load shed till they got control again.

One of the problems is that in Coal fired stations which we once had a lot of there was a sort of Capacity in the actual altenatores spinning thats to say the frequency is set by their rotational speed and theri mass was quite a bit so there was some storage inertia of risistance for frequncy change.

Windy mills and Solar  have to go thru inverters that convert  DC to AC and theres not a lot of the same load stability there as such!..

[ruggedscot]

When we had sizewll trip and then longannet two powerstations in different parts of the country it nearly toppled the grid - the frequency dropped and that cause issues. it was load shed load shed load shed till they got control again.

One of the problems is that in Coal fired stations which we once had a lot of there was a sort of Capacity in the actual altenatores spinning thats to say the frequency is set by their rotational speed and theri mass was quite a bit so there was some storage inertia of risistance for frequncy change.

Windy mills and Solar  have to go thru inverters that convert  DC to AC and theres not a lot of the same load stability there as such!..

wind mills generate at AC and sync to the grid.... Solar is invertor... Some of the worst faults Ive seen have been solar as they dont have the ability to clear a fault.... the fault current is like the full load current so you get a lot of damage and they are terrible to try and protect.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

wind mills generate at AC and sync to the grid.... Solar is invertor... Some of the worst faults Ive seen have been solar as they dont have the ability to clear a fault.... the fault current is like the full load current so you get a lot of damage and they are terrible to try and protect.

Well I was told, albeit quite a while ago by a engineer on a site that they contained inverters but thats maybe only some make's and types?..

Solar deffo so unless the Sun's kicking off 50 Hz! Wait till we get one of those Carrington stylee flares!, be fun from the Sun not!!

[dubs]

wind mills generate at AC and sync to the grid.... Solar is invertor... Some of the worst faults Ive seen have been solar as they dont have the ability to clear a fault.... the fault current is like the full load current so you get a lot of damage and they are terrible to try and protect.

* Wind turbines.  They are not making flour.

[anyfucker]

wind mills generate at AC and sync to the grid.... Solar is invertor... Some of the worst faults Ive seen have been solar as they dont have the ability to clear a fault.... the fault current is like the full load current so you get a lot of damage and they are terrible to try and protect.

for a domestic installation the life of an inverter is far less than the panels, I would have thought any sizeable / industrial solar site would account for this?

[myothernameis]

Its been around 12 months, since my meter was read, so meter reader came out today, to read my meters.  I still have to standard electric and gas meter, so the person doing the meter readings, tried to get me to sign up to smart meters...No thank, Im more than happy with my standard meters

[winkywanky]

Around 8 weeks after fitting ( ), both my Gas and Electric smart meters have now finally started logging on with the mothership.

So no more meter-reading required from me, and I have also fitted the little digital display in my downstairs cloak so that I can check everything is hunky-dory from time to time.

And a monthly email to me tells me whether I'm behind or ahead with my payment schedule (ahead at the moment of course because it's summer).

[fudi_maar]

I've literally just got off a cold-call from EDF energy who want me to book a date for a smart meter. I'm neither for or against the idea, but the woman who spoke to me was very assertive, to the point of talking over me, and "assuming the sale" - not asking if I wanted a smart meter but telling me that I'm going to get one and which date is best for me. I got assertive back, and started talking over her, and then wished her a good day and hung up.

[winkywanky]

I've literally just got off a cold-call from EDF energy who want me to book a date for a smart meter. I'm neither for or against the idea, but the woman who spoke to me was very assertive, to the point of talking over me, and "assuming the sale" - not asking if I wanted a smart meter but telling me that I'm going to get one and which date is best for me. I got assertive back, and started talking over her, and then wished her a good day and hung up.

I believe there is a govt-funded financial incentive for them to fit smart meters so that's why they push them?

The woman you spoke to is also motivated to recommend a time-window too, because it makes sense for them to do them area-by-area.

I don't know whether you did or didn't want one, but to turn one down simply because the woman pissed you off is a bit of a girly thing to do, is it not?     

[Taggart]

In National Grid live status (grid.iamkate.com) biomass isn’t shown as renewable, falling under ‘other’. Ferrybridge I understand imports the pellets it burns by ship from North America ffs!

It’s not Ferrybridge, that closed in 2016. It’s Drax slightly east.
Yes the pellets are sourced in the USA, processed, taken by diesel train to Baton Rouge, loaded on a ship which is unloaded in Liverpool.  Another diesel train hauls the pellets to Drax.

Believe Lynemouth PS is another biomass one, pellets arrive via Newcastle, train to the power station.

Green? Is it bllx.

[daviemac]

It’s not Ferrybridge, that closed in 2016. It’s Drax slightly east.
Yes the pellets are sourced in the USA, processed, taken by diesel train to Baton Rouge, loaded on a ship which is unloaded in Liverpool.  Another diesel train hauls the pellets to Drax.

Believe Lynemouth PS is another biomass one, pellets arrive via Newcastle, train to the power station.

Green? Is it bllx.

They aren't promoted as green, it's renewable energy  from biomass fuel.

Lynemouth's owed by a Czech company and the import terminal is at South Shields not Newcastle. 

[Blackpool Rock]

I believe there is a govt-funded financial incentive for them to fit smart meters so that's why they push them?

The woman you spoke to is also motivated to recommend a time-window too, because it makes sense for them to do them area-by-area.

I don't know whether you did or didn't want one, but to turn one down simply because the woman pissed you off is a bit of a girly thing to do, is it not?     

In fairness if some sales twat gets arsey with me on the phone i'd tell them where to get off too

[fudi_maar]

I don't know whether you did or didn't want one, but to turn one down simply because the woman pissed you off is a bit of a girly thing to do, is it not?     

Come come now WW, you wouldn't be trying to troll me, would you good sir? :-)

I invite you to read my post again, esp the bit where I say "I'm neither for or against the idea"

[winkywanky]

In fairness if some sales twat gets arsey with me on the phone i'd tell them where to get off too

But would you cut your nose off to spite your face? 

[winkywanky]

Come come now WW, you wouldn't be trying to troll me, would you good sir? :-)

I invite you to read my post again, esp the bit where I say "I'm neither for or against the idea"

I know you did, I just didn't want to feel that someone being a twat on the phone to you might have influenced your decision 

[fudi_maar]

I know you did, I just didn't want to feel that someone being a twat on the phone to you might have influenced your decision 

Nope, I like to think that people being twats - whether on the phone, or on an internet forum  - is not enough to push me towards making bad decisions.

[Blackpool Rock]

But would you cut your nose off to spite your face? 

If someone pissed me off enough then Yes 

I do remember about 10 years ago looking round various electrical shops for a new fridge freezer noting down the different models and prices etc.
Some young sales prick came over and started talking to me, i'd already almost made my mind up which one I wanted but was still thinking a few things over and sort of talking aloud to myself making sense of things.
I commented that "This one is £400" to which he jumped in and pointed out it was only £399.99  I fucking hate that it's a crap sales technique they have all been programmed to repeat 
I didn't get offish with him but calmly said well yes you get a penny change from £400 and he immediately jumped in again reinforcing that it wasn't £400 but only £399.99 and as the conversation continued he told me this 4 or 5 times by which point i'd already decided to buy a fridge freezer elsewhere  This was despite on the 3rd occasion me saying "Well you call it £399.99 and i'll call it £400" and he immediately said it was £399.99 what a cunt 

A key part of sales is learning to read people and what pushes their buttons then getting them onside not pissing them off.
Also had a run in with another twat about a dish washer when he pointed out a model that used a litre or so less water then the one I was looking at, of course the one he wanted me to buy was a load more money so I just said I wasn't bothered to which he exclaimed "That's not very conscientious is it" 
Told that cock that I didn't need a lesson in morals from a salesman and walked 

[anyfucker]

I've literally just got off a cold-call from EDF energy who want me to book a date for a smart meter. I'm neither for or against the idea, but the woman who spoke to me was very assertive, to the point of talking over me, and "assuming the sale" - not asking if I wanted a smart meter but telling me that I'm going to get one and which date is best for me. I got assertive back, and started talking over her, and then wished her a good day and hung up.

I've had letters telling me to change as the meters can become faulty and overcharge  as if they'd be concerned about that.
Back in the day we had meters that lasted thirty years or more, I'm not changing unless forced to.

[winkywanky]

Nope, I like to think that people being twats - whether on the phone, or on an internet forum  - is not enough to push me towards making bad decisions.

That's good, this twat  wouldn't want it any other way.

[winkywanky]

If someone pissed me off enough then Yes 

I do remember about 10 years ago looking round various electrical shops for a new fridge freezer noting down the different models and prices etc.
Some young sales prick came over and started talking to me, i'd already almost made my mind up which one I wanted but was still thinking a few things over and sort of talking aloud to myself making sense of things.
I commented that "This one is £400" to which he jumped in and pointed out it was only £399.99  I fucking hate that it's a crap sales technique they have all been programmed to repeat 
I didn't get offish with him but calmly said well yes you get a penny change from £400 and he immediately jumped in again reinforcing that it wasn't £400 but only £399.99 and as the conversation continued he told me this 4 or 5 times by which point i'd already decided to buy a fridge freezer elsewhere  This was despite on the 3rd occasion me saying "Well you call it £399.99 and i'll call it £400" and he immediately said it was £399.99 what a cunt 

A key part of sales is learning to read people and what pushes their buttons then getting them onside not pissing them off.
Also had a run in with another twat about a dish washer when he pointed out a model that used a litre or so less water then the one I was looking at, of course the one he wanted me to buy was a load more money so I just said I wasn't bothered to which he exclaimed "That's not very conscientious is it" 
Told that cock that I didn't need a lesson in morals from a salesman and walked 

That's good though, you ended up buying exactly what you wanted elsewhere, and the twat who pissed you off didn't get any commission  .

[Blackpool Rock]

That's good though, you ended up buying exactly what you wanted elsewhere, and the twat who pissed you off didn't get any commission  .

Yeah I know it cost me in extra time and fuel etc but I did take a perverse satisfaction knowing they didn't get their commissions 
And I knew at the time it's a warped / twisted logic but hey little protests etc 

[Gordon Bennett]

Saw an article yesterday saying most current Smart meters will go dumb by 2030, even the newer SMET2 ones.

They communicate via 2G/3G mobile networks which are due to switch off by end of this decade. Some can communicate by radio but these are the exception rather than the rule and only get installed where there's no mobile signal eg remote rural places.

What a fucking debacle. £Billions shelled out... the first meters were rendered useless anytime someone changed suppliers (something we were encouraged to do) and now the newer meters will be useless in several years too.

What really gets my goat is fact that there will have been many highly remunerated civil servants and officials who oversaw this shit-show and got paid bonuses and given promotions. There ought to be a witch-hunt of the lot of them to jail them for malfeasance.

[myothernameis]

From a email from Scottish power, about smart meters

P.S. As old traditional meter types have become obsolete, licensed energy suppliers are obligated to install smart meters in their customers' homes

Is this a fly way to tell consumers, we need smart meters