Smart Meters

[winkywanky]

And add on the smell too, like they do with natural gas, so you can smell if there is a leak.  Coal gas had the smell ready built-in.

Indeed, being an old'un I know that 

[ruggedscot]

the rush for smart meters is for onething and one thing only - it aint to monitor you or to spy...

The one thing that the meter has that dumb meters dont have is the ability to be switched off. As if has an IP address the company can and it will work out a way to shed load in a selective basis to maintain the security of the grid.

There are huge penalty clauses for generationif they fall out of specification and with the move to green and non carbon bases sources they need a way to ensure  that they can control the load.

Just now its rough and ready as they load shed large areas... imagine the power of being able to loadshed on a per customer  basis.

So thats the real drive here, to get the customers onto a meter that can be smartly controlled.

[GingerNuts]

the rush for smart meters is for onething and one thing only - it aint to monitor you or to spy...

The one thing that the meter has that dumb meters dont have is the ability to be switched off. As if has an IP address the company can and it will work out a way to shed load in a selective basis to maintain the security of the grid.

There are huge penalty clauses for generationif they fall out of specification and with the move to green and non carbon bases sources they need a way to ensure  that they can control the load.

Just now its rough and ready as they load shed large areas... imagine the power of being able to loadshed on a per customer  basis.

So thats the real drive here, to get the customers onto a meter that can be smartly controlled.

They'll reduce the supply of electricity to individual customers?

[PunterNumber69]

They'll reduce the supply of electricity to individual customers?

They can do a remote disconnect on smart meters, but they won't just shed individual meters in the event of a lack of supply. They usually do it for smart pay as you go customers and only if they get a court order. 

[winkywanky]

You're making it sound like some Domesday scenario where people will get cut off willy-nilly.

It's an incredibly tortuous procedure getting someone cut off, it has to go through courts etc. So even if you could be cut off remotely, that just saves them coming round your house to do it 

[winkywanky]

Similarly cutting off whole areas should the National Grid suddenly prove 'inadequate'.

There's always energy in reserve, there's always ways out of a sudden emergency, they think of this stuff.

The only thing which might happen is some major hack, but then that could fuck the National Grid anyway, nothing to do with smart meters?

[PunterNumber69]

Similarly cutting off whole areas should the National Grid suddenly prove 'inadequate'.

There's always energy in reserve, there's always ways out of a sudden emergency, they think of this stuff.

The only thing which might happen is some major hack, but then that could fuck the National Grid anyway, nothing to do with smart meters?

They'd shed other load first like unmetered stuff like street lights and metered industrial or commercial.

They don't cutting the power to homes as you know if the property requires power for life critical things like breathing machines or electric heating.

Don't go worrying about it.

[PunterNumber69]

Similarly cutting off whole areas should the National Grid suddenly prove 'inadequate'.

There's always energy in reserve, there's always ways out of a sudden emergency, they think of this stuff.

The only thing which might happen is some major hack, but then that could fuck the National Grid anyway, nothing to do with smart meters?

Spikes in demand is where hydroelectric is good. They open the gates and the turbines going quickly and then overnight they pump the released water back into the holding lake.

[PunterNumber69]

Similarly cutting off whole areas should the National Grid suddenly prove 'inadequate'.

There's always energy in reserve, there's always ways out of a sudden emergency, they think of this stuff.

The only thing which might happen is some major hack, but then that could fuck the National Grid anyway, nothing to do with smart meters?

National Grid and smart meters are two different unconnected networks.  I believe both are monitored very closely as critical national infrastructure.

[winkywanky]

They'd shed other load first like unmetered stuff like street lights and metered industrial or commercial.

They don't cutting the power to homes as you know if the property requires power for life critical things like breathing machines or electric heating.

Don't go worrying about it.

I don't worry about power being cut off at all, you seemed to be though?

[winkywanky]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant  .

[PunterNumber69]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant  .

I have no worries about power being cut off. It's scaremongering.

[winkywanky]

I have no worries about power being cut off. It's scaremongering.

#MeToo

[dubs]

Would they not have to make it denser to avoid leakage too?

The only way to make it denser would be to increase the pressure, which would cause more leaks, and pipe bursts.

Storage tanks can hold up to 10,000psi so massively dangerous if damaged.
 External Link/Members Only.

[winkywanky]

Mixing with another, denser gas was what I had in mind, but then the effect on combustibility/thermal content would have to be taken into account.

[petermisc]

Spikes in demand is where hydroelectric is good. They open the gates and the turbines going quickly and then overnight they pump the released water back into the holding lake.

Opening the sluices and getting the turbines up to speed takes quite awhile.  They can only get going quickly if they are on hot standby, with the turbines already spinning.

[PunterNumber69]

Opening the sluices and getting the turbines up to speed takes quite awhile.  They can only get going quickly if they are on hot standby, with the turbines already spinning.

I thought they got the turbines going on electric and then pulled the plug in the bath tub and whoosh the turbines spin really fast.

[petermisc]

They'd shed other load first like unmetered stuff like street lights and metered industrial or commercial.
They don't cutting the power to homes as you know if the property requires power for life critical things like breathing machines or electric heating.
Don't go worrying about it.

There have always been contingency plans involving cutting off industrial supplies.  The problem is that there are far fewer electricity-intensive heavy industries (such as steel smelting) than there once was.  Likewise, with LED lighting, street lighting is becoming a less and less significant part of the load.

The big problem with the steady increase in green supplies and loss of traditional supplies is that they are making the grid steadily more unstable.  Lots of massive generators gave the grid an inherent frequency stability, that is steadily being lost.  When the grid frequency drops, the speed of all the generators connected to it and that are all running in synch has to drop.  The type of massive, heavy-machinery generators used in traditional coal-fired power stations have a massive mechanical inertia that slows this down.  The type of electrical convertors used in many green supplies, such as solar, do not have such inertia.

[petermisc]

I thought they got the turbines going on electric and then pulled the plug in the bath tub and whoosh the turbines spin really fast.

You can get a hydro-electric power station up to full power considerably faster than a coal-fired power station, but it is still far from instantaneous.  Opening the valve-gates and getting the water flowing and the turbines running at full speed can take some time.  Then connecting the generators to the grid requires them running at full speed and in phase synchronism with the grid - this can take awhile.  Connecting them to the grid without them in synch would cause a massive power surge and likely destroy the generators.  On hot-standby, they will have the turbines running at full speed, then all they need to do is increase the water supply to full load.

[Marmalade]

I haven’t read the whole thread so common reasons may already have been given but I’m fairly strongly against smart meters. The idea sounds good, the actual operation not so. I had to get quite stroppy with one supplier who kept emailing and posting saying I had to get one or that I’d requested one or that an installation was being booked. You are not legally required to have one and can tell them to stick it up themselves. Quote legislation if you have to. And if your energy supplier is pissing you off and getting on your tits: change!

[Watts.E.Dunn]

As much coal power in the uK today as what there is Wind;!...


External Link/Members Only

[PunterNumber69]

I haven’t read the whole thread so common reasons may already have been given but I’m fairly strongly against smart meters. The idea sounds good, the actual operation not so. I had to get quite stroppy with one supplier who kept emailing and posting saying I had to get one or that I’d requested one or that an installation was being booked. You are not legally required to have one and can tell them to stick it up themselves. Quote legislation if you have to. And if your energy supplier is pissing you off and getting on your tits: change!

Yeah, you're NOT legally required to have, but many energy suppliers are making having a smart meter one of the terms and conditions for their cheaper tariffs. I tried to get one fitted this year, but the supplier screwed up the appointment and now I'm switching energy supplier, so they might ask me to get a smart meter installed.

[anyfucker]

You can get a hydro-electric power station up to full power considerably faster than a coal-fired power station, but it is still far from instantaneous.  Opening the valve-gates and getting the water flowing and the turbines running at full speed can take some time.  Then connecting the generators to the grid requires them running at full speed and in phase synchronism with the grid - this can take awhile.  Connecting them to the grid without them in synch would cause a massive power surge and likely destroy the generators.  On hot-standby, they will have the turbines running at full speed, then all they need to do is increase the water supply to full load.

Most of the suitable sites are already taken so there's not much possibility of expanding this area.

[Marmalade]

Yeah, you're NOT legally required to have, but many energy suppliers are making having a smart meter one of the terms and conditions for their cheaper tariffs. I tried to get one fitted this year, but the supplier screwed up the appointment and now I'm switching energy supplier, so they might ask me to get a smart meter installed.

Cos they get a big fat bonus. Part of the current big fat fucked-up go-green purge.

Some of the things smart meters can do legally…
Hidden Image/Members Only

That’s for companies and fuck knows who else. Of course there’s benefits to you(?) …maybe they tell you if you’ve boiled a kettle too often. Bet you wanted to know that! Diaries and remembering things are too ‘old school’ apparently.

At first companies tried to charge you for the ‘benefit’. When a lot of people complained (in America some states sued) then they offer it “for free!!” Or tell you you must. Finally they offer you a ‘discount’ — a paltry percentage of the money they’re making by harvesting your big data.

I bet Alexa and Siri fans are rushing to get one. Then they can stick their head in the fuse cupboard three times a day for ‘feedback’.

[Marmalade]

As much coal power in the uK today as what there is Wind;!...

There’s an awful of wind. But most of it isn’t driving wind turbines.

[Blackpool Rock]

As much coal power in the uK today as what there is Wind;!...


External Link/Members Only

You really don't like Green energy solutions do you 

Yeah so as has previously been said the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine however they are only intended to be part of an overall energy strategy.
Currently 3.0% coal and 3.6% wind but you also need to factor in solar 20.0% (In the UK  ) and biomass at 6.4%

There's actually a reasonable wind here today about 8-12 MPH so it's OK for wind turbines, i've previously wondered why they don't turn when there is reasonable wind or why only some in a wind farm turn and others don't.
Apparently it's due to them not being needed or in other words all the energy requirement is being generated from other sources, I find it strange though that they would still be using gas and coal and not running the wind farms harder, perhaps it's due to having to gradually build up and slow down gas and coal plants or maybe they have contracts to use XYZ amount of coal / gas a year 

External Link/Members Only

[petermisc]

Yeah so as has previously been said the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine however they are only intended to be part of an overall energy strategy.
Currently 3.0% coal and 3.6% wind but you also need to factor in solar 20.0% (In the UK  ) and biomass at 6.4%

I get that using wind power when the wind is blowing means that we are not having to burn gas or coal during those times, cutting our CO2 emissions.  But if we still need to have the gas stations as backup for the times when the wind isn't blowing, then we are paying to have two power stations built and maintained where previously we were only paying for one.  I think it is dawning on people that, for this and other reasons, going green means that they are going to be paying a LOT more for their heating and lighting.

Increasingly battery backup is being touted as the standby, but batteries tend to use some very nasty metals.

[petermisc]

Cos they get a big fat bonus. Part of the current big fat fucked-up go-green purge.

Some of the things smart meters can do legally…
Hidden Image/Members Only

That’s for companies and fuck knows who else. Of course there’s benefits to you(?) …maybe they tell you if you’ve boiled a kettle too often. Bet you wanted to know that! Diaries and remembering things are too ‘old school’ apparently.

At first companies tried to charge you for the ‘benefit’. When a lot of people complained (in America some states sued) then they offer it “for free!!” Or tell you you must. Finally they offer you a ‘discount’ — a paltry percentage of the money they’re making by harvesting your big data.

I bet Alexa and Siri fans are rushing to get one. Then they can stick their head in the fuse cupboard three times a day for ‘feedback’.

I cannot understand why you are still using the internet if you are so worried about what people might find out about you.

If they are going to get that amount of information about you personally, then there has to be someone to look at all that data, and decide how exactly they are going to use it against you personally.  At least it is going to mean full employment, with all those people deciding how to use all the data the rest of us are generating.   (Except that they won't be getting it from me either, as I too am not having one.  Not for any tin-foil-hat-brigade conspiracy reasons, but because the disadvantages far outweigh the minimal short-term advantage).

Do the energy companies get a big fat bonus for getting us all on smart meters?  I thought the way it worked was that they get a "fine" if they haven't signed up an agreed percentage of customers by a set date?  I am not aware of any energy company in the UK that has ever charged for a smart-meter, or is offering a discount to anyone for having one.  Although some are only offering their cheapest rates to those who have a smart-meter, there are other reputable companies that don't (and in my experience, are offering a cheaper rate anyway).

[Blackpool Rock]

I get that using wind power when the wind is blowing means that we are not having to burn gas or coal during those times, cutting our CO2 emissions.  But if we still need to have the gas stations as backup for the times when the wind isn't blowing, then we are paying to have two power stations built and maintained where previously we were only paying for one.  I think it is dawning on people that, for this and other reasons, going green means that they are going to be paying a LOT more for their heating and lighting.

Increasingly battery backup is being touted as the standby, but batteries tend to use some very nasty metals.

Depends if you call a wind farm or solar panel farm a power station 
The fact is that renewable energy is now cheaper than conventional power sources as the technology has improved and been scaled up.
Nuclear seems to be the worst for cost as people don't factor in the huge cost of decommissioning them 
Long term when we get rid of the last gas power stations then we won't be paying for two 

I agree batteries aren't really the answer as they aren't very environmental but other threads on here have flagged the future option of drawing hydrogen from the atmosphere using excess green energy which can be stored and used as backup when the wind doesn't blow etc

[Watts.E.Dunn]

You really don't like Green energy solutions do you 

Yeah so as has previously been said the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine however they are only intended to be part of an overall energy strategy.
Currently 3.0% coal and 3.6% wind but you also need to factor in solar 20.0% (In the UK  ) and biomass at 6.4%

There's actually a reasonable wind here today about 8-12 MPH so it's OK for wind turbines, i've previously wondered why they don't turn when there is reasonable wind or why only some in a wind farm turn and others don't.
Apparently it's due to them not being needed or in other words all the energy requirement is being generated from other sources, I find it strange though that they would still be using gas and coal and not running the wind farms harder, perhaps it's due to having to gradually build up and slow down gas and coal plants or maybe they have contracts to use XYZ amount of coal / gas a year 

Well yes your right I don't like wind and renwables because their just not relaible enough. For or the last month or two wind output has bene piss poor all that happenes is that the wind goes down the gas comes up and so it see saws about a mean. Yes solar when the suns sufficent can be of use but there times in the winter months when solar is very low output and days are there when the wind is low too if theres a blocking high pressure system around.

And the UK is one of the windiest countries around in Europe too.

We Need Nuclear the smaller dispatchabe systems, not the big nukes i read that many are now working on these inc Bill Gates! They need to get on with them Boimass is carbon producing and yes we still burn coal Boris wants them shut dowen but best to keep them handy for now.


And where is all the power for electric cars to come from and whats to repelace Gas heating for the home?.... 

[winkywanky]

Well yes your right I don't like wind and renwables because their just not relaible enough. For or the last month or two wind output has bene piss poor all that happenes is that the wind goes down the gas comes up and so it see saws about a mean. Yes solar when the suns sufficent can be of use but there times in the winter months when solar is very low output and days are there when the wind is low too if theres a blocking high pressure system around.

And the UK is one of the windiest countries around in Europe too.

We Need Nuclear the smaller dispatchabe systems, not the big nukes i read that many are now working on these inc Bill Gates! They need to get on with them Boimass is carbon producing and yes we still burn coal Boris wants them shut dowen but best to keep them handy for now.


And where is all the power for electric cars to come from and whats to repelace Gas heating for the home?....

Simple question: has your electricity supply failed lately? Was there any danger of it doing so? Thought not.

It's evolution old boy, makes the (human) world go round. Slow, purposeful evolution, away from fossil fuels.

Have a little faith.

The alternative is to keep burning fossil fuels willy-nilly, and we know where that's leading us don't we? You won't be here when it all falls apart and neither will I, nevertheless I signed up with an energy provider which is 100% green and gives me a cheap deal. The more people gravitate towards that, the quicker our future on the planet will be secured.

[petermisc]

Depends if you call a wind farm or solar panel farm a power station 
The fact is that renewable energy is now cheaper than conventional power sources as the technology has improved and been scaled up.
Nuclear seems to be the worst for cost as people don't factor in the huge cost of decommissioning them 
Long term when we get rid of the last gas power stations then we won't be paying for two 

I agree batteries aren't really the answer as they aren't very environmental but other threads on here have flagged the future option of drawing hydrogen from the atmosphere using excess green energy which can be stored and used as backup when the wind doesn't blow etc

Just as people don't factor in the cost of decommissioning nuclear, so renewable is only cheaper if you don't factor in the cost of all the storage schemes necessary to keep the power on when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining.  Agreed that when we have got rid of the last gas-powered stations that we won't be paying for them.  But we will instead be having to pay the cost of providing and maintaining some other equivalent-sized backup power sources.

If the storage system is going to be hydrogen, we are going to need both a lot of storage space, and some very big hydrogen production plants and hydrogen-powered stations (presumably about as many hydrogen-powered stations as we currently have gas-powered).  Hydrogen is barely present in our atmosphere, just 0.00005%, so I am not sure how practical that is going to be on a large scale.  If you instead mean extracting hydrogen from water, then that tends to be very energy-inefficient.

[petermisc]

And where is all the power for electric cars to come from and whats to repelace Gas heating for the home?....

That is actually a very good question.  As all the power that is currently supplied by petrol, diesel and natural gas sources gradually goes over to electric, the load on both the national and local supply networks is going to increase significantly.  Likewise the grid is currently configured for its current power sources, and loads.  Which is why new power stations tend to get built where there is an old one.  The national grid isn't like some giant ring-main - you can't just build a new power station and run a spur to the closest grid point, and hope that the power will find its way to where its needed over the existing network.

We are going to need substantial investment in re-configuring and bolstering the grid, both at national and local level.

[petermisc]

Simple question: has your electricity supply failed lately? Was there any danger of it doing so? Thought not.
It's evolution old boy, makes the (human) world go round. Slow, purposeful evolution, away from fossil fuels.
Have a little faith.
The alternative is to keep burning fossil fuels willy-nilly, and we know where that's leading us don't we? You won't be here when it all falls apart and neither will I, nevertheless I signed up with an energy provider which is 100% green and gives me a cheap deal. The more people gravitate towards that, the quicker our future on the planet will be secured.

I suggest you do a quick google search on UK power blackouts. 

For the fourth time this winter National Grid Plc warned that the buffer needed to ensure security of supply and keep the lights on was too small......

Things are getting steadily worse, each year we have less spare capacity, and with several major power stations due to be decommissioned soon, are rapidly going to get much worse.

In terms of evolution of the power-supply network, how long it takes to build new power stations, get approval to run new national grid power-lines, dig up thousands of miles or road to lay bigger cables, we are actually proposing to move very fast.  And although there are lots of proposals for new energy sources, there are very few plans for the massive investment that needs to be made now in both the national grid and local supply networks to support these forthcoming changes.

While it may salve your conscience to be with an energy supplier that claims to be 100% green, there is no way that that your electricity supply is 100% green.  Not if it comes from the same national grid as my electricity does.

[hamchang]

Cos they get a big fat bonus. Part of the current big fat fucked-up go-green purge.

Some of the things smart meters can do legally…
Hidden Image/Members Only

That’s for companies and fuck knows who else. Of course there’s benefits to you(?) …maybe they tell you if you’ve boiled a kettle too often. Bet you wanted to know that! Diaries and remembering things are too ‘old school’ apparently.

At first companies tried to charge you for the ‘benefit’. When a lot of people complained (in America some states sued) then they offer it “for free!!” Or tell you you must. Finally they offer you a ‘discount’ — a paltry percentage of the money they’re making by harvesting your big data.

I bet Alexa and Siri fans are rushing to get one. Then they can stick their head in the fuse cupboard three times a day for ‘feedback’.

You missed one which is what all the fan boys here will not realise.

The Peak Times rates will move in your abode to the times where you consistently use electricity.

If you get up at the same time and follow the same routine, that is when your power cost will increase. When you are out at work and nothing is on, that is when it will reduce. Aside from the massive data tracking and sales from smart meters, it is a way to increase what you pay.

No "smart" meter for me, so called to make people think they are smart for having one. Stupid as fuck falling for this scam to voluntarily tell them when you use more power and pay a higher rate


 

[winkywanky]

I suggest you do a quick google search on UK power blackouts.  Things are getting steadily worse, each year we have less spare capacity, and with several major power stations due to be decommissioned soon, are rapidly going to get much worse.

In terms of evolution of the power-supply network, how long it takes to build new power stations, get approval to run new national grid power-lines, dig up thousands of miles or road to lay bigger cables, we are actually proposing to move very fast.  And although there are lots of proposals for new energy sources, there are very few plans for the massive investment that needs to be made now in both the national grid and local supply networks to support these forthcoming changes.

While it may salve your conscience to be with an energy supplier that claims to be 100% green, there is no way that that your electricity supply is 100% green.  Not if it comes from the same national grid as my electricity does.

I don't think it has happened yet, a power cut due to lack of energy in the Grid?

Although we appear to be sailing close to the wind (pun intended): External Link/Members Only

Having a 'Green' supplier encourages investment in infrastructure, that's the way it works. Bit of a silly comment on your part that my energy is 'dirty' because someone else pissed in the pond with power from coal. The point is the supplier I use buys Green energy, yes of course it all goes into the same pot and then I take it out the other end.

I'm not some Green Warrior, I just like to feel that I'm giving things a nudge in the right direction, and I still get a cheap deal, a lot cheaper than those fuckers at british Gas who've been ripping off little old ladies for years.

[winkywanky]

You missed one which is what all the fan boys here will not realise.

The Peak Times rates will move in your abode to the times where you consistently use electricity.

If you get up at the same time and follow the same routine, that is when your power cost will increase. When you are out at work and nothing is on, that is when it will reduce. Aside from the massive data tracking and sales from smart meters, it is a way to increase what you pay.

No "smart" meter for me, so called to make people think they are smart for having one. Stupid as fuck falling for this scam to voluntarily tell them when you use more power and pay a higher rate


 

Why can't you ever make your 'point' (if indeed you ever really have a valid one) without sounding like a sneering cunt? 

You're the same all over the Covid threads. If you talk so much provable bollocks on there, do you really think you have any credibility whatsoever with anything else you might say?

And what are you on about with unit prices going up and down with demand? Most people have a flat rate, and they have a chance to shop around to get the best deal. And Ofgem broadly steer the whole thing along (not perfectly, agreed). But there is choice. A national Energy styrategy too of course, but there is choice, there is oversight.

[PunterNumber69]

I don't think it has happened yet, a power cut due to lack of energy in the Grid?

Although we appear to be sailing close to the wind (pun intended): External Link/Members Only

Having a 'Green' supplier encourages investment in infrastructure, that's the way it works. Bit of a silly comment on your part that my energy is 'dirty' because someone else pissed in the pond with power from coal. The point is the supplier I use buys Green energy, yes of course it all goes into the same pot and then I take it out the other end.

I'm not some Green Warrior, I just like to feel that I'm giving things a nudge in the right direction, and I still get a cheap deal, a lot cheaper than those fuckers at british Gas who've been ripping off little old ladies for years.

It happens on a regular basis in countries such as the US where they have brownouts.

[winkywanky]

It happens on a regular basis in countries such as the US where they have brownouts.

I wasn't aware we live in the US (yet), a frankly enormous country with a population five times the size and completely different politcs driven by completely different things?

[PunterNumber69]

I wasn't aware we live in the US (yet), a frankly enormous country with a population five times the size and completely different politcs driven by completely different things?

People complain about the UK's infrastructure, but when you see the state of the infrastructure in the US the UK infrastructure is good. It's not uncommon to see live electricty meters fizzing and sparking in the rain in the US, electricity substations explode and kill people and telegraph poles almost falling over because of all the cables (cable TV, broadband, telephone) hanging off them. The UK is fortunate to have fairly mild weather so energy consumption is fairly predictable for each season. In the US they have a huge load from AC units.

[winkywanky]

People complain about the UK's infrastructure, but when you see the state of the infrastructure in the US the UK infrastructure is good. It's not uncommon to see live electricty meters fizzing and sparking in the rain in the US, electricity substations explode and kill people and telegraph poles almost falling over because of all the cables (cable TV, broadband, telephone) hanging off them. The UK is fortunate to have fairly mild weather so energy consumption is fairly predictable for each season. In the US they have a huge load from AC units.

Probably not a good comparison to make with the UK, regarding the power going off then  .

[petermisc]

I don't think it has happened yet, a power cut due to lack of energy in the Grid?
Although we appear to be sailing close to the wind (pun intended): External Link/Members Only

Having a 'Green' supplier encourages investment in infrastructure, that's the way it works. Bit of a silly comment on your part that my energy is 'dirty' because someone else pissed in the pond with power from coal. The point is the supplier I use buys Green energy, yes of course it all goes into the same pot and then I take it out the other end.

I'm not some Green Warrior, I just like to feel that I'm giving things a nudge in the right direction, and I still get a cheap deal, a lot cheaper than those fuckers at british Gas who've been ripping off little old ladies for years.

Wasn't the most recent mass-blackout (2019?) due to a power station unexpectedly going off-line, and there being insufficient spare capacity left to cope?  IIRC, this caused a domino-effect as successive parts of the grid overloaded and shut-down.  I think something similar happened in London not too long ago when a sub-station shut-down (or blew up?).

We currently need the capacity from coal and gas.  I don't mind being the person paying for it to keep your power on.  I still get a cheap deal.

My point is that those who truly want to nudge us in the green direction should be paying considerably more, not getting it on the cheap.  I don't blame you for going for the cheap deals while the going is good, but the cheap deals will have to end sooner-or-later if we are going to pay for the massive investment needed to allow everyone to use green energy, rather than just a select high-minded few.  I won't mind if the government increases the costs of brown energy, to try and discourage me from using it, provided that all those who are using green energy are paying the full whack for all the extra infrastructure needed to support the growth in green energy.

The cost of drilling through the solid rock that my house is built on to create a heat farm would be horrendous.  The cost of hydrogen boilers may go down, but they will still cost considerably more than current gas boilers, if only because there will be much less demand for them, and the cost of hydrogen is inevitably going to be significantly greater than the cost of natural gas.  Heating the house by electricity would currently cost significantly more, and I dread to think how much electricity prices are going to be going up to support the cost of upgrading the power network.  So I intend to renew my gas boiler while I still can. 

[winkywanky]

Wasn't the most recent mass-blackout (2019?) due to a power station unexpectedly going off-line, and there being insufficient spare capacity left to cope?  IIRC, this caused a domino-effect as successive parts of the grid overloaded and shut-down.  I think something similar happened in London not too long ago when a sub-station shut-down (or blew up?).

We currently need the capacity from coal and gas.  I don't mind being the person paying for it to keep your power on.  I still get a cheap deal.

My point is that those who truly want to nudge us in the green direction should be paying considerably more, not getting it on the cheap.  I don't blame you for going for the cheap deals while the going is good, but the cheap deals will have to end sooner-or-later if we are going to pay for the massive investment needed to allow everyone to use green energy, rather than just a select high-minded few.  I won't mind if the government increases the costs of brown energy, to try and discourage me from using it, provided that all those who are using green energy are paying the full whack for all the extra infrastructure needed to support the growth in green energy.

The cost of drilling through the solid rock that my house is built on to create a heat farm would be horrendous.  The cost of hydrogen boilers may go down, but they will still cost considerably more than current gas boilers, if only because there will be much less demand for them, and the cost of hydrogen is inevitably going to be significantly greater than the cost of natural gas.  Heating the house by electricity would currently cost significantly more, and I dread to think how much electricity prices are going to be going up to support the cost of upgrading the power network.  So I intend to renew my gas boiler while I still can.

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A combination of factors, but of course yes, if there's not enough excess capacity available then shit can happen.

Bearing in mind the very compelling recent events surrounding global warming, do you not think it's a good idea to encourage a greener energy policy in the UK? It can eventually work out cheaper than what we currently have too, after initial investment. And if you want people to pay more for Green energy than they do for fossil fuels, how do you think that's going to come about? it won't.

I don't see myself as high-minded, I see myself as a realist, I'm not on some high horse, preaching, this NEEDS to happen. Things won't turn to shit in your lifetime, but if you and I don't act they will pretty soon after, or at the least, worse than they could otherwise have been.

We simply cannot go on as we are, can we? Unless you think Global Warming is a myth? 

You don't seem to understand we are all in this together, and you think that any changes need to be made by someone else, not you. Not only is that incorrect, it will happen whether you like it or not.

[Blackpool Rock]

Wasn't the most recent mass-blackout (2019?) due to a power station unexpectedly going off-line, and there being insufficient spare capacity left to cope?  IIRC, this caused a domino-effect as successive parts of the grid overloaded and shut-down.  I think something similar happened in London not too long ago when a sub-station shut-down (or blew up?).

We currently need the capacity from coal and gas.  I don't mind being the person paying for it to keep your power on.  I still get a cheap deal.

My point is that those who truly want to nudge us in the green direction should be paying considerably more, not getting it on the cheap.  I don't blame you for going for the cheap deals while the going is good, but the cheap deals will have to end sooner-or-later if we are going to pay for the massive investment needed to allow everyone to use green energy, rather than just a select high-minded few.  I won't mind if the government increases the costs of brown energy, to try and discourage me from using it, provided that all those who are using green energy are paying the full whack for all the extra infrastructure needed to support the growth in green energy.

The cost of drilling through the solid rock that my house is built on to create a heat farm would be horrendous.  The cost of hydrogen boilers may go down, but they will still cost considerably more than current gas boilers, if only because there will be much less demand for them, and the cost of hydrogen is inevitably going to be significantly greater than the cost of natural gas.  Heating the house by electricity would currently cost significantly more, and I dread to think how much electricity prices are going to be going up to support the cost of upgrading the power network.  So I intend to renew my gas boiler while I still can.

I'm not convinced that building a wind / solar farm is more expensive than building a gas power station and i'd think that a nuclear would be the most expensive especially when you factor in decommissioning.

We also need to start thinking outside the box, every new house / factory should be compelled to have solar panels on the roof etc, new housing estates and factories should be compelled to install ground source heat pumps.
By doing lots of small initiatives it avoids a lot of the future requirement to build large scale plants, it also means less strain on the national grid infrastructure as more power could be generated locally and only have to be topped up from the grid

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[Marmalade]

I can’t help but think that location planning and building proper flood walls might be an investment requiring equal or higher priority. Re-siting major roads and railway lines should also be looked at where flooding could produce severe disruption.

I’m all for sensible planning to reduce climate change: but the idealised image of reversing or even stopping it completely is I think leading to a denial of reality. When shit is going to happen, you need to think how to handle it, not groupthink that it won’t.

[Marmalade]

The more I look at climate change initiatives, the more I seem to see corporate business opportunities taking precedence over human welfare. A solar panel won’t do you much good if your house is completely fucked by floods.

[Blackpool Rock]

As much coal power in the uK today as what there is Wind;!...


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Here you go what a difference a day makes, yesterday they were both around the 3-4% mark however today coal is about 2% and wind is about 21% and solar 6.5% however it's not as sunny today and hardly any windier, clearly they play with the mix for a variety of reasons and again my guess is that it's down to contracts to use certain amounts of gas etc

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[petermisc]

I'm not convinced that building a wind / solar farm is more expensive than building a gas power station and i'd think that a nuclear would be the most expensive especially when you factor in decommissioning.

If all you build is a wind farm, then maybe not.  But how are you going to maintain the supply when the wind isn't blowing?  If you have to build a wind farm AND something else as backup (such as a battery farm, or a hydrogen storage scheme), then I very much doubt that the two combined are going to be cheaper than one gas power station.

[hamchang]

Why can't you ever make your 'point' (if indeed you ever really have a valid one) without sounding like a sneering cunt? 

You're the same all over the Covid threads. If you talk so much provable bollocks on there, do you really think you have any credibility whatsoever with anything else you might say?

And what are you on about with unit prices going up and down with demand? Most people have a flat rate, and they have a chance to shop around to get the best deal. And Ofgem broadly steer the whole thing along (not perfectly, agreed). But there is choice. A national Energy styrategy too of course, but there is choice, there is oversight.

Pot - Kettle

Listen pal - I emulate the prose style of people like you. Take a step back, unplug from the guardian / telegraph etc for a week, and then have a think about things. Then you too can be a "sneering cunt" too looking down of fools like you who swallow lies and propaganda dished up by the media to push State narratives like a ladyboy swallows old german mens spunk.

 

[petermisc]

By doing lots of small initiatives it avoids a lot of the future requirement to build large scale plants, it also means less strain on the national grid infrastructure as more power could be generated locally and only have to be topped up from the grid

I am also convinced that, as more things that are currently gas-powered or petrol-powered become electricity-powered, we are going to have to generate a lot more electricity locally, we cannot just keep drawing ever more power from the grid.

BUT, the local power distribution networks are only designed to feed electricity outwards from the grid supply points, not to distribute it around, let alone feed it back into the grid.  In simple terms, if you feed power into a circuit AFTER the fuse, you have potentially lethal problems.

If we want to generate electricity locally on any scale, we are going to have to totally reconfigure our local distribution networks.  They can just about cope with a few houses producing relatively insignificant amounts of solar electricity.  But already several small-scale solar power plants have bit the dust because the local distribution network could not cope with them.  There is no incentive for the distribution companies to pay for the work (they are only contractually obliged to provide consumers with power), and the schemes become uneconomic if the proposer has to pay the cost of rebuilding the local network to cope with it.  Someone is going to have to pay for it.