Author Topic: Murder investigation.  (Read 18550 times)

Offline Scotpunter

I agree, of course it wasn't fair, which brings me back to the original legal assumption of innocence until proven guilty.

You are describing a system of justice by mob rule ( social media ) which is unacceptable to any normal person. It may even have been a crime of corrupting the course of justice by feeding false information publicly to influence the court. Lying in court is an offence of contempt of court and could get you imprisoned.

Sorry I think I misunderstood what you said. The reality is if you are accused of a crime, whatever you are charged with and whatever the accusers version is, is what is printed in the paper. That is at the time of you being charged. In Scotland, the defendants name is only released when you are formerly charged in Court. This happens within normally 4 weeks of you being charged by the desk Sergeant at the Station.
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Offline Jimmyredcab

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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Offline Scotpunter

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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I read that mate. Bloody bonkers aren't they.

I see they are holding a 'reclaim the streets' march saying that women don't feel safe out at night. Firstly it is disgraceful women feel this way, but lets be totally honest here. How many men would feel comfortable walking a mile or so home on their own now.

I don't know what the solution to it is, but curfews for innocent people isn't it.
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Offline JontyR

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm,

But she doesn't say that does she? There isn't the context of what was said previously. If this was a response to a comment which blamed women for provoking attacks and looked from a very narrow vision of equalities it would show up the ridiculousness of such comments by juxtaposing a barmy suggestion "might" that would achieve similar or better outcomes

Quote
  you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

No, but you can selectively take things out of context and sell it to gammon.

Offline Payyourwaymate

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This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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I'll just self identify as a woman if I'm asked why I'm out then with gender fluidity being valid these days  :lol:. What kind of drug is that person smoking? The sheer stupidity of such a suggestion, it's not feasible :dash:.

Offline Scotpunter

I'll just self identify as a woman if I'm asked why I'm out then with gender fluidity being valid these days  :lol:. What kind of drug is that person smoking? The sheer stupidity of such a suggestion, it's not feasible :dash:.

I may use that as an excuse as to why I'm out in a frock and a pair of sussies!  :lol:
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Offline Jimmyredcab

But she doesn't say that does she?

That is exactly what she said, and she does not deny it.    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



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Offline Xtro

I may use that as an excuse as to why I'm out in a frock and a pair of sussies!  :lol:

Do you do incalls?  How much?   :D   :D   ;)

Offline Scotpunter

Do you do incalls?  How much?   :D   :D   ;)

I'm not sure if you are aware of the illustrious member here called cueball. He has a cage where the extremely ugly are kept....well I'm the WG that made him build that cage!  :D
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Offline Rondonumbanine9

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Violence is horrible but part of human/animal behaviour.

Most people are civilised, but unfortunately some people are not.

Violence stems from aggression which can manifest as sexual aggression.
It’s more prominent in men because hormones like testosterone have higher concentration in men than women, there is overlap of course but it means the most aggressive people in the world are exclusively men.

If you’re a overly aggressive heterosexual man with a lack impulse restraint (which happens in the brain area) the consequences of the crimes/action will exclusively be women.
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Offline Scotpunter

Violence is horrible but part of human/animal behaviour.

Most people are civilised, but unfortunately some people are not.

Violence stems from aggression which can manifest as sexual aggression.
It’s more prominent in men because hormones like testosterone have higher concentration in men than women, there is overlap of course but it means the most aggressive people in the world are exclusively men.

If you’re a overly aggressive heterosexual man with a lack impulse restraint (which happens in the brain area) the consequences of the crimes/action will exclusively be women.

You make a very interesting point. To sort of confirm this, I remember reading an article years ago that noted that domestic violence was by proportion far more commonplace in lesbian relationships than gay men. It also said that higher amounts of testosterone were found in a number of women who identified as lesbian.
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Online Jonestown

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If you’re a overly aggressive heterosexual man with a lack impulse restraint (which happens in the brain area) the consequences of the crimes/action will exclusively be women.

Surely not, there are over twice as many men murdered as women in annual terms in the UK.

Offline Rondonumbanine9

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Surely not, there are over twice as many men murdered as women in annual terms in the UK.

We’re speaking of sexual aggression effecting women.
Standard aggression effects men, but men being killed will have other variables
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Offline Apu

When I first read of this poor girl I had hoped she had breakdown and disappeared to get some space.

For some reason I am always hopeful of these kind of missing people's cases.

Sadly everytime its heartbreaking to hear its the worst everytime.

There was Madeline McCann, there was that somali girl drowned in Manchester by Bullies. A Thai wife of some bloke recently... The list goes on...

This murderer was part of normal society, I can't even imagine the horror he deserves. If I were the girls father I would want his blood on my hands.

Murder of an innocent is so evil. To imagine a family raised this woman to be who she was and at 33, she was randomly abducted and killed by a monster. She had a partner and friends. A career and future ahead of her.... And some animal took that all away.

RIP Sarah Everard

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Offline cotton

Look at the case of the Irish international rugby player Paddy Jackson, accused of rape, founded not guilty, hounded from club to club. Never played for Ireland again.
Thats an interesting case and highlights the dificulties around rape.  A drunk girl goes to a party at the home of some celeb sprtosguy and has sex with him and gives oral to another , another female partygoer walks in during the sex and gives evidence to the effect that it looked like a concensual threesome , or rather there was nothing to indicate it wasnt concensual in terms of the plaintiffs behaviour like screaming or fighting resistance.  Anyway subsequently girl is upset and its apparent it wasnt concensual , so many possible scenarios are possible but based on the evidence its impossible to find anyone guilty .
Very sad story but as a cyclist id say similar to riding a bike , as the vulnerable person in the situation you cant simply rely on other people being nice and not doing something to harm you, you gotta be savvy and stay out of potentially dangerous situations. 

Offline chrishornx

Thats an interesting case and highlights the dificulties around rape.  A drunk girl goes to a party at the home of some celeb sprtosguy and has sex with him and gives oral to another , another female partygoer walks in during the sex and gives evidence to the effect that it looked like a concensual threesome , or rather there was nothing to indicate it wasnt concensual in terms of the plaintiffs behaviour like screaming or fighting resistance.  Anyway subsequently girl is upset and its apparent it wasnt concensual , so many possible scenarios are possible but based on the evidence its impossible to find anyone guilty .
Very sad story but as a cyclist id say similar to riding a bike , as the vulnerable person in the situation you cant simply rely on other people being nice and not doing something to harm you, you gotta be savvy and stay out of potentially dangerous situations.

1,000 up Cotton well done :dance: :dance: :dance:

Offline cotton


Offline David1970

But she doesn't say that does she? There isn't the context of what was said previously. If this was a response to a comment which blamed women for provoking attacks and looked from a very narrow vision of equalities it would show up the ridiculousness of such comments by juxtaposing a barmy suggestion "might" that would achieve similar or better outcomes

No, but you can selectively take things out of context and sell it to gammon.

Can you expand on this, explain the context she was talking in.

Offline David1970

What would be interesting would the view of female members on this subject, they may not want to comment due to the reaction of a small minority of members.

Offline David1970

Thats an interesting case and highlights the dificulties around rape.  A drunk girl goes to a party at the home of some celeb sprtosguy and has sex with him and gives oral to another , another female partygoer walks in during the sex and gives evidence to the effect that it looked like a concensual threesome , or rather there was nothing to indicate it wasnt concensual in terms of the plaintiffs behaviour like screaming or fighting resistance.  Anyway subsequently girl is upset and its apparent it wasnt concensual , so many possible scenarios are possible but based on the evidence its impossible to find anyone guilty .
Very sad story but as a cyclist id say similar to riding a bike , as the vulnerable person in the situation you cant simply rely on other people being nice and not doing something to harm you, you gotta be savvy and stay out of potentially dangerous situations.

Well written Cotten, can I add all 3 of the people were drunk, not just the accuser and it took her 3 days for her to decide that she thought it was not consensual. Can I also point out that a jury did not believe her version of events.

Offline JontyR

That is exactly what she said, and she does not deny it.    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



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What does she have to deny?

Look, if the green party had this as a policy, they could raise it as a bill. They have representation in both houses of parliament. They haven't. And they won't.

If there is an existing proposal in the works there is the potential to list amendments. She made the point that she could raise an amendment. She didn't say that she would, or if she felt it was proportionate or that she would even support it.

The comment you have just mentioned illustrates a point. Not your point. But hers.

You can imagine that the comments that she received made comment to her gender. A man making similar comments is, I'll wager, more likely to be called a stupid dickhead than a stupid man.  She is, again I'll guess, more likely to receive comments calling her a stupid woman.  Is it more polite?  Perhaps. Does it show sign of unconscious bias based on gender? People can draw their own conclusions.

I'm guessing the point that she is trying to make is that there are very few cases (I cannot think of any) of where women are abducted and killed from the streets by other women on their own. Thankfully there are few by anyone, but those that are are perpetrated generally by men. 

Offline JontyR

Can you expand on this, explain the context she was talking in.

I'll have to come back to you on this. But will do so as soon as work allows.

Offline Jimmyredcab

What does she have to deny?

Look, if the green party had this as a policy, they could raise it as a bill. They have representation in both houses of parliament. They haven't. And they won't.

Why are you defending this awful woman. ????

The Green Party are irrelevant, they have one MP in Parliament despite Jo Swinson predicting they would win the general election.

Swinson couldn’t even retain her own seat.  :wackogirl:

Offline JontyR

Can you expand on this, explain the context she was talking in.

Ok. I am conscious on this that to prove the point here risks violation of the board rules on politics. After all the statements were made in the House of Lords.

The comments were made in a debate about a Domestic Violence Bill. The peer, Baroness Jones, had made several contributions to the debate, mainly around an amendment she had placed regarding the restriction of unsupervised contact with children with a parent who was separated from the family unit due to their abuse. 

However the quote that has been so readily jumped upon was much later in the debate. The contribution here was pointing out the potential discrimination against women in the Criminal Justice System. It details that crimes that are perpetuated by women are generally less violent and less severe than those committed by men.

However she then points out that the violent crimes that are committed by women against abusive partners have very high conviction rates and because there is often a weapon involved that they receive higher sentences. She draws a comparison to the conviction rates and sentences in cases where a homeowner confronts a burglar (although there are no comparable statistics mentioned). This is the discrimination she points to in the statement. 

She goes on to point out that the chances of successful appeal in such cases are slim and that whilst understanding about the dynamics of relationships with domestic abuse has accelerated significantly the legal position relating to self defence in such circumstances has not. The government minister disagreed with her on that point.

If any Pnetters who consider themselves to have an open mind you may want to read the transcript for yourself.

External Link/Members Only If you Ctrl+F enter the word Jones it is the 21st entry.  But its also worthwhile seeing just how often the person in question actually praises the work done on the bill and the generally convivial tone of the debate.

Thankyou David1970 for the question. I wouldn't have read it if it wasnt for your prompt and I feel a little more enlightened now.

Offline JontyR

Why are you defending this awful woman. ????

The Green Party are irrelevant, they have one MP in Parliament despite Jo Swinson predicting they would win the general election.

Swinson couldn’t even retain her own seat.  :wackogirl:

And she was a Lib Dem. Why would she predict the Greens would win the election?

I'll defend anyone who is being maligned unfairly. Even you, should that ever happen.

Offline David1970

Why are you defending this awful woman. ????

The Green Party are irrelevant, they have one MP in Parliament despite Jo Swinson predicting they would win the general election.

Swinson couldn’t even retain her own seat.  :wackogirl:

Jimmy what has Jo Swinson to do with the Green Party she was the leader of the Lib Dems. She lost her seat because she was a clown, nothing to do with the Green Party. Don’t bother answering this as you are straying into politics, just accept you are wrong and move on.



« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:16:42 am by David1970 »

Offline David1970

Ok. I am conscious on this that to prove the point here risks violation of the board rules on politics. After all the statements were made in the House of Lords.

The comments were made in a debate about a Domestic Violence Bill. The peer, Baroness Jones, had made several contributions to the debate, mainly around an amendment she had placed regarding the restriction of unsupervised contact with children with a parent who was separated from the family unit due to their abuse. 

However the quote that has been so readily jumped upon was much later in the debate. The contribution here was pointing out the potential discrimination against women in the Criminal Justice System. It details that crimes that are perpetuated by women are generally less violent and less severe than those committed by men.

However she then points out that the violent crimes that are committed by women against abusive partners have very high conviction rates and because there is often a weapon involved that they receive higher sentences. She draws a comparison to the conviction rates and sentences in cases where a homeowner confronts a burglar (although there are no comparable statistics mentioned). This is the discrimination she points to in the statement. 

She goes on to point out that the chances of successful appeal in such cases are slim and that whilst understanding about the dynamics of relationships with domestic abuse has accelerated significantly the legal position relating to self defence in such circumstances has not. The government minister disagreed with her on that point.

If any Pnetters who consider themselves to have an open mind you may want to read the transcript for yourself.

External Link/Members Only If you Ctrl+F enter the word Jones it is the 21st entry.  But its also worthwhile seeing just how often the person in question actually praises the work done on the bill and the generally convivial tone of the debate.

Thankyou David1970 for the question. I wouldn't have read it if it wasnt for your prompt and I feel a little more enlightened now.

Thank you for your answer, every enlightening.

Offline mills_and_bhuna

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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Great idea. Maybe with an exception to be made for policemen...... Oh wait a minute

Offline Xtro

What would be interesting would the view of female members on this subject, they may not want to comment due to the reaction of a small minority of members.

Listen to LBC. Mostly women phoning in for the last few days giving their side.

Online dubs

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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What utter bollocks she is spouting.

Imagine changing "men" for "Muslims" and "rapists" for "Islamic terrorists".  What would be the response if some do-gooder said all Muslims should be under curfew because a small minority of them are terrorists.

Offline Adoniron

This Green Party peer has a solution to keep women safe, she wants us all off the streets after 6pm, you really couldn’t make it up.    :wackogirl:

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Good luck with getting enough women to do all the night shift work that men do - doctors, nurses, paramedics, firemen, refuse collectors, barmen, chefs, waiters, taxi bus and train drivers, petrol station attendants, security guards....

Offline mh

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No, but you can selectively take things out of context and sell it to gammon.

 :lol: :lol:

I've heard the same suggestion as the Green Party peer made several times before. It can be understood quite logically.

In the absence of any other solution* how do you prevent women from being attacked or abducted on the street after dark?

"Solution" 1: tell all women, none of whom have done anything wrong, that they should not be out after dark.

"Solution" 2: tell all men, some of whom have attacked and abducted women on the street, that they should not be out after dark.

Which of these inconveniences the fewest innocent people? "Solution" 2, quite obviously. And yet the advice from police is always for women to "protect themselves" by not being where they want to or need to be.

*Of course none of these are solutions. The solution is to stop men being predators. There's no short term way to stop that. The long term solution is education from an early age for boys and girls, but mostly boys, about their behaviour towards women. Not a lesson on it, not a lecture on it. Education in the widest sense about what is and isn't appropriate. It has been happening already, no doubt to the horro of the "anti-woke" brigade. I can tell you that my kids have learned and know all about consent, but it certainly isn't universal. Some men still think that they have a right - whether they are on their own on in a group - to harass a woman on their own, to follow a woman on their own, to proposition a woman on their own. If men just say "it's only a few nutters, not me, women just need to stay at home after dark" then that's enabling the crime, not trying to prevent it.

Offline David1970

What utter bollocks she is spouting.

Imagine changing "men" for "Muslims" and "rapists" for "Islamic terrorists".  What would be the response if some do-gooder said all Muslims should be under curfew because a small minority of them are terrorists.


I take it you never bothered to find out the context and just read Jimmy’s edited post?

Ok. I am conscious on this that to prove the point here risks violation of the board rules on politics. After all the statements were made in the House of Lords.

The comments were made in a debate about a Domestic Violence Bill. The peer, Baroness Jones, had made several contributions to the debate, mainly around an amendment she had placed regarding the restriction of unsupervised contact with children with a parent who was separated from the family unit due to their abuse. 

However the quote that has been so readily jumped upon was much later in the debate. The contribution here was pointing out the potential discrimination against women in the Criminal Justice System. It details that crimes that are perpetuated by women are generally less violent and less severe than those committed by men.

However she then points out that the violent crimes that are committed by women against abusive partners have very high conviction rates and because there is often a weapon involved that they receive higher sentences. She draws a comparison to the conviction rates and sentences in cases where a homeowner confronts a burglar (although there are no comparable statistics mentioned). This is the discrimination she points to in the statement. 

She goes on to point out that the chances of successful appeal in such cases are slim and that whilst understanding about the dynamics of relationships with domestic abuse has accelerated significantly the legal position relating to self defence in such circumstances has not. The government minister disagreed with her on that point.

If any Pnetters who consider themselves to have an open mind you may want to read the transcript for yourself.

External Link/Members Only If you Ctrl+F enter the word Jones it is the 21st entry.  But its also worthwhile seeing just how often the person in question actually praises the work done on the bill and the generally convivial tone of the debate.

Thankyou David1970 for the question. I wouldn't have read it if it wasnt for your prompt and I feel a little more enlightened now.

Offline mh

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Good luck with getting enough women to do all the night shift work that men do - doctors, nurses, paramedics, firemen, refuse collectors, barmen, chefs, waiters, taxi bus and train drivers, petrol station attendants, security guards....

Yes it's stupid, but do you think that no women do any of these jobs already? How are they meant to do them if the advice to them is to stay locked up once the sun goes down?

Offline Xtro

Good luck with getting enough women to do all the night shift work that men do - doctors, nurses, paramedics, firemen, refuse collectors, barmen, chefs, waiters, taxi bus and train drivers, petrol station attendants, security guards....

Awwwww, C'mon, get real......
Men would still be allowed out for essential travel and/or work.
We will have our psychological evaluation card in our wallet next to our vaccine passport.   :sarcastic:

Offline Jimmyredcab

And she was a Lib Dem. Why would she predict the Greens would win the election?


My mistake, accept my humble apologies.  :hi:

Offline Scotpunter

:lol: :lol:

I've heard the same suggestion as the Green Party peer made several times before. It can be understood quite logically.

In the absence of any other solution* how do you prevent women from being attacked or abducted on the street after dark?

"Solution" 1: tell all women, none of whom have done anything wrong, that they should not be out after dark.

"Solution" 2: tell all men, some of whom have attacked and abducted women on the street, that they should not be out after dark.

Which of these inconveniences the fewest innocent people? "Solution" 2, quite obviously. And yet the advice from police is always for women to "protect themselves" by not being where they want to or need to be.

*Of course none of these are solutions. The solution is to stop men being predators. There's no short term way to stop that. The long term solution is education from an early age for boys and girls, but mostly boys, about their behaviour towards women. Not a lesson on it, not a lecture on it. Education in the widest sense about what is and isn't appropriate. It has been happening already, no doubt to the horro of the "anti-woke" brigade. I can tell you that my kids have learned and know all about consent, but it certainly isn't universal. Some men still think that they have a right - whether they are on their own on in a group - to harass a woman on their own, to follow a woman on their own, to proposition a woman on their own. If men just say "it's only a few nutters, not me, women just need to stay at home after dark" then that's enabling the crime, not trying to prevent it.

I'm not sure I agree with your education statement. The vast majority of males know how to behave. Like you, I don't believe anyone should be afraid to go out after dark, male or female. I don't know the answer to it, we would all like to see more Police Officers walking round and stiffer sentences for those convicted of these crimes.
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I take it you never bothered to find out the context and just read Jimmy’s edited post?

The point still stands.  Telling men that they all have to change their behaviour because of a violent minority, is like telling Muslims that they can't use public transport carrying a rucksack because it makes the other passengers anxious.

Offline Jimmyredcab

The point still stands.  Telling men that they all have to change their behaviour because of a violent minority, is like telling Muslims that they can't use public transport carrying a rucksack because it makes the other passengers anxious.

Exactly, anyway I was under the impression that most violence towards women is domestic violence carried out by a partner/husband/boyfriend. ?????


Offline JontyR

The point still stands. 

No it doesn't. You are arguing against a point that was never made, just one part of a much wider conversation taken out of context that people are jumping on.

Sadly, you are the one being misled. You are the one being coerced into doing the will of others. And you think you are defending freedom in doing so. I'm sorry that you, and others here, have been conditioned this way to willingly gulp down a spoonfed narrative that's based on ridiculing anything that may seek to change things for the better.

Offline mh

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we would all like to see more Police Officers walking round

I think this week that statement is receiving a sarcastic snort from most women. Yes, I know, #notallcops.  :)

Offline Rondonumbanine9

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No it doesn't. You are arguing against a point that was never made, just one part of a much wider conversation taken out of context that people are jumping on.

It does.

The person is making a point in itself.

Context does matter I agree, but is context more important than making an analogy of similar or different situation which have the same underlying message? I think they both have there values
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Offline JontyR

is context more important than making an analogy of similar or different situation which have the same underlying message?

Yes. In my opinion.

Because you are arguing against a point that was never made. The suggestion of a 6pm curfew for men was never given as a serious suggestion (despite what is suggested by Jimmy's post and then lapped up by others since) any more than all men should have their cocks put in cages and only be unlocked by a code which is linked to a consent form from a partner.  Or that we should legislate that Tigers aren't allowed on the streets because they may savage traffic wardens. Or that Vegetarians shouldn't be allowed in confined spaces because their farts are more likely to smell.

 

Offline Rondonumbanine9

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Yes. In my opinion.

Because you are arguing against a point that was never made. The suggestion of a 6pm curfew for men was never given as a serious suggestion (despite what is suggested by Jimmy's post and then lapped up by others since) any more than all men should have their cocks put in cages and only be unlocked by a code which is linked to a consent form from a partner.  Or that we should legislate that Tigers aren't allowed on the streets because they may savage traffic wardens. Or that Vegetarians shouldn't be allowed in confined spaces because their farts are more likely to smell.




Fair point
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Offline Joe Exotic

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Who thinks he’s a Phoenix party attendant swinging sort.
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Offline David1970

Who thinks he’s a Phoenix party attendant swinging sort.

What are you on?

Offline King Nuts

The point still stands.  Telling men that they all have to change their behaviour because of a violent minority, is like telling Muslims that they can't use public transport carrying a rucksack because it makes the other passengers anxious.

Quite. I don't need to take any lessons on the subject and I don't claim the high ground or presume to tell other men what to do.

I've never abused a woman, struck a woman, intimidated a woman or threatened a woman.

But if I had to give advice to other men, it would be this: be considerate. And don't be a cunt.


Offline Jimmyredcab

The vigil for Sarah tomorrow has been banned, a correct decision by the court in my opinion.

If mass gatherings are banned it has to apply to ALL mass gatherings, you can’t pick and choose which ones are justified.  :hi:

Offline David1970

The vigil for Sarah tomorrow has been banned, a correct decision by the court in my opinion.

If mass gatherings are banned it has to apply to ALL mass gatherings, you can’t pick and choose which ones are justified.  :hi:

You are correct Jimmy :thumbsup: