Author Topic: Elon Musk now worlds richest person with $186 bn.  (Read 1089 times)

Offline ID98765

Tesla now is worth $205 bn and Ford is worth $35 bn.

He made $100 bn this year just because of the share price of Tesla (he owns 20%).

This is madness.  The stock market is not the economy.

Offline lostandfound

@ $859 per share Tesla's current market cap is around $813 bn.

That is approaching the entire market cap of all other large automotive manufacturers in the world added together, which is IIRC between $900 bn and $1 tn.

Offline ID98765

@ $859 per share Tesla's current market cap is around $813 bn.

That is approaching the entire market cap of all other large automotive manufacturers in the world added together, which is IIRC between $900 bn and $1 tn.

Thanks for clarifying that!

I remember when RBS bought ABN Amro at the top of the market.  Around 6 months later they could have bought for the same price all of the main investment banks including Goldmans, Merril Lynch, Citi group and so on.

I wonder what happened to Fred the Shred @ RBS?

Offline lostandfound

Apparently struggling by on his pension of £450K per year - having impoverished lord knows how many pensioners / pension funds who were invested in RBS!

Offline LLPunting

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Tesla now is worth $205 bn and Ford is worth $35 bn.

He made $100 bn this year just because of the share price of Tesla (he owns 20%).

This is madness.  The stock market is not the economy.

Sadly the stock market very much steers the World's economies, it drives the direction of investment, the over-inflation of headline stocks, the market manipulation chasing returns on margins, it affects the cost of borrowing, it enables and emboldens titan brands in their domination and manipulation of the offerings in their respective industries...

The Tesla valuation is completely bonkers, if it genuinely isn't rationally, financially justified by a belief that all the other manufacturers are going to fail with their electric offerings and that ICE vehicles will continue to increase in number without the requisite emissions reductions to make them carbon-negative in accounting for their legacy deficit.

Offline lostandfound

Ooh - well their current valuation only suggests they will take a mere 50% of the entire world automotive market. If you take a look on social media you will see the Tesla-wise pointing out that the stock price is going to EXPLODE in 2021.

They do have room to grow. Only sold 500K cars this year. Imagine how much Tesla will be worth in 12 months time when they may double that to a MILLION cars.

And it's not as though the sky's the limit. You need to think bigger than that - Elon plans to colonise Mars!

Offline lamboman

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Sadly the stock market very much steers the World's economies, it drives the direction of investment, the over-inflation of headline stocks, the market manipulation chasing returns on margins, it affects the cost of borrowing, it enables and emboldens titan brands in their domination and manipulation of the offerings in their respective industries...

The Tesla valuation is completely bonkers, if it genuinely isn't rationally, financially justified by a belief that all the other manufacturers are going to fail with their electric offerings and that ICE vehicles will continue to increase in number without the requisite emissions reductions to make them carbon-negative in accounting for their legacy deficit.

Spot on ramped up ready for a fall.
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Offline Billy no mates

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I love useless information.

I tend to think we have become desensitised to “billionaires”

Think about this...
One million seconds is roughly 12 days
One billion seconds is over 30 years

You can see the difference, right ?

Crazy.

Offline Payyourwaymate

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Tesla now is worth $205 bn and Ford is worth $35 bn.

He made $100 bn this year just because of the share price of Tesla (he owns 20%).

This is madness.  The stock market is not the economy.

Tell that to the FED that done everything they could to prop it. You had a look at bitcoin recently? Nothing makes sense anymore  :lol:.

Offline Pete123

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Its just the world of today
Things of no real value are worth fortunes
Contemporary art is another example
And things of real worth are undervalued
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Offline Blackpool Rock

Personal fortunes and empires rise but they also fall however there is a difference between an over valued asset and a complete bubble which will eventually burst.

The other thing is that while sales haven't been massive sometimes the value of a company isn't just about the current sales but about the potential and this is especially true of stocks which are Tech orientated, Tesla is listed on the NASDAQ

There will be other factors that have the Tesla price high in that a lot of Tech stocks are currently much higher than they were 12 months ago pre covid as they have actually benefited from the virus, also known as the FAANG's (Facebook; Axxxxxx; Apple; Netflix and Google), the upswing for Tesla when the sector does well is that tracker funds then also buy Tesla.

I believe there are only about 5 or 6 places worldwide currently identified as being viable for mining Lithium needed for the batteries and Elon has been looking to make deals to ensure supply and also form his own mining companies etc to cut the battery cost by 50%
Having an assured supply of the basic material could be deemed as a valuable asset in itself which will boost the share price

I went in a Tesla a couple of months back and the guy stuck his foot down from about 20 miles an hour, Fucking warp speed I went dizzy it was like being on a roller coaster  :drinks:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 11:31:23 pm by Blackpool Rock »

Offline scutty brown

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Have ANY of Musk's businesses ever declared a profit? Or a shareholder dividend?

Offline LLPunting

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Have ANY of Musk's businesses ever declared a profit? Or a shareholder dividend?

Yes, including Tesla (just).

Offline LLPunting

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Personal fortunes and empires rise but they also fall however there is a difference between an over valued asset and a complete bubble which will eventually burst.

The other thing is that while sales haven't been massive sometimes the value of a company isn't just about the current sales but about the potential and this is especially true of stocks which are Tech orientated, Tesla is listed on the NASDAQ

There will be other factors that have the Tesla price high in that a lot of Tech stocks are currently much higher than they were 12 months ago pre covid as they have actually benefited from the virus, also known as the FAANG's (Facebook; Axxxxxx; Apple; Netflix and Google), the upswing for Tesla when the sector does well is that tracker funds then also buy Tesla.

I believe there are only about 5 or 6 places worldwide currently identified as being viable for mining Lithium needed for the batteries and Elon has been looking to make deals to ensure supply and also form his own mining companies etc to cut the battery cost by 50%
Having an assured supply of the basic material could be deemed as a valuable asset in itself which will boost the share price

I went in a Tesla a couple of months back and the guy stuck his foot down from about 20 miles an hour, Fucking warp speed I went dizzy it was like being on a roller coaster  :drinks:

Factoring in the future is no longer at play here, at least no future less than 10 years away assuming only Tesla expand their sales and the others continue to stutter and ICE vehicles are indeed progressively eliminated on the way to 2050.
This is all about factoring in fantasy and then players using puts, calls, longs and shorts to service (consumer) demands for shares as expected news does or doesn't come in and shifts the (fantastical) value perception.  It's a matter of the House always wins along with a few lucky punters to keep the honeytrap sweet.  The irony is that it's no longer about realistic valuations of actual performance and prospects of the company in a predictable industry market, this is all about making margin on the transactions in the shares.

Sadly the other manufacturers seem to be playing into this by making a mess of their offerings, chasing the same development path Tesla has trod but with their own tech years behind Tesla's. 
Since 2014 they've had the option of using Tesla patents for free provided they basically opened up their own patent portfolios for mutual exploitation to launch the market at an accelerated pace.  They didn't take the opportunity because they were too selfishly short-sighted.  They could've been building their 2nd gen of genuinely competitive models by now with at least the same level of performance and offering as current Teslas but each of their production outputs would be several times higher.  They would be worth many times their current valuations and Tesla would be much smaller.  It was all there for the taking and they shat on it. 

Factor in Cars as a Service (aka rent-a-car/hire purchase/car financing) to make the "pricey" cost seem affordable and almost everyone in the market for a car could be considering an electric option.  Someone is going to make the Spotify/Itunes/Netflix of car "ownership" a thing and the woke sheeple will jump in with both boots (and if no one's thought it yet then I just conceived it here with my currently redundant sperm brimming to my eyeballs).

Offline lostandfound

Tesla has yet to make a profit selling cars - though it has been profitable for several quarters by other means - which is what allowed it to enter the S & P 500.

Is there competition for Tesla?

The big one is Volkswagen. I believe the ID.3 was the bestselling car in Germany last month (replacing the Renault Zoe). The ID.4 is priced at around $39K in the US - $32.5K after tax credits - versus $49K for the Model Y (though Biden may reinstate tax credits on Teslas). The base price of the ID.4 will fall to $35K in 2022 when they start making them in the US.

Volkswagen also has solid state batteries on the way through its battery company Quantumscape. They are promised for limited production in luxury cars from 2024 / 25, though VW may be sandbagging and they may only be a couple of years away. (VW has been in with QS since 2012 - before dieselgate - has largely funded their development, and has two people on the board of QS).

Tesla's "problem" is shit build quality. But then American cars have always been shit - Americans don't care - if they want a well made car they buy a Euro / or Jap car.
Tesla is a tech company that needs to learn how to build cars properly if it wants to achieve global scale.

The likes of VW / Daimler / BMW have the opposite problem. They are brilliant at building cars but they need to learn how to be a tech company.

Offline Blackpool Rock

Tesla has yet to make a profit selling cars - though it has been profitable for several quarters by other means - which is what allowed it to enter the S & P 500.

Is there competition for Tesla?

The big one is Volkswagen. I believe the ID.3 was the bestselling car in Germany last month (replacing the Renault Zoe). The ID.4 is priced at around $39K in the US - $32.5K after tax credits - versus $49K for the Model Y (though Biden may reinstate tax credits on Teslas). The base price of the ID.4 will fall to $35K in 2022 when they start making them in the US.

Volkswagen also has solid state batteries on the way through its battery company Quantumscape. They are promised for limited production in luxury cars from 2024 / 25, though VW may be sandbagging and they may only be a couple of years away. (VW has been in with QS since 2012 - before dieselgate - has largely funded their development, and has two people on the board of QS).

Tesla's "problem" is shit build quality. But then American cars have always been shit - Americans don't care - if they want a well made car they buy a Euro / or Jap car.
Tesla is a tech company that needs to learn how to build cars properly if it wants to achieve global scale.

The likes of VW / Daimler / BMW have the opposite problem. They are brilliant at building cars but they need to learn how to be a tech company.
Yeah it's a bit strange that America is often claimed to be very demanding for things like quality and customer service yet I agree my perception of American goods is that they are crap quality.
The Tesla's owner that I went in (That's the Tesla I "went in" not the owner  :rolleyes:) said he was worried picking it up as he'd read lots of horror stories on line about multiple major build quality problems for customers that needed fixing when they picked them up.
His was fine but apparently you get a bit long check list of things to tick off when you collect it  :wacko:
Wouldn't you think that this should be done before it leaves the factory or at least by the garage before the customer picks it up  :dash:

Someone commented a while back about interest in buying the Jaguar all electric car, others then commented that they had previously owned Jags and the electrics were the worst and most unreliable thing about them so the thought of buying an all electric one made them  :scare:

If Tesla haven't made a profit from selling the actual cars then they must be making money on associated things which is often the case, when there was the California gold rush for instance a few lucky prospectors struck it big but most lost money.
The people that made money weren't those panning for gold but the people who set up stores to sell the prospectors food; shovels; pans; dynamite etc or the saloon owner with gambling tables and "Rooms by the hour" upstairs, disgusting thought eh  ;)   

Offline NIK

I am absolutely sceptical of who is richest person etc. Truth is they haven’t a bloody clue.
Always remember when Michael Parkinson used to have his Sunday morning Radio 2 show they used to review the papers. Every April they used to discuss the Sunday Times Rich List and every year Parky quite rightly told the bloke reviewing them it was a waste of time because the figures could be no more than totally speculative.

I also remember when Cilla Black was reputedly the highest paid woman on telly (fuck knows why!) she admitted whilst handsomely paid, she wasn’t on anything like the loot they reckoned. Conversely, Gary Webster who replaced Dennis Waterman in Minder, once said he wouldn’t get out of bed for the money they reported he was being paid.

Obviously the Rich are obscenely Rich, but could be a lot less or a lot more wealthy than reported.
It can never be more than speculation.

Only thing I am certain of is that I am fucking brassic.
Good job I have gone off punting!

Offline lostandfound

Yeah it's a bit strange that America is often claimed to be very demanding for things like quality and customer service yet I agree my perception of American goods is that they are crap quality.
The Tesla's owner that I went in (That's the Tesla I "went in" not the owner  :rolleyes:) said he was worried picking it up as he'd read lots of horror stories on line about multiple major build quality problems for customers that needed fixing when they picked them up.
His was fine but apparently you get a bit long check list of things to tick off when you collect it  :wacko:
Wouldn't you think that this should be done before it leaves the factory or at least by the garage before the customer picks it up  :dash:

Someone commented a while back about interest in buying the Jaguar all electric car, others then commented that they had previously owned Jags and the electrics were the worst and most unreliable thing about them so the thought of buying an all electric one made them  :scare:

If Tesla haven't made a profit from selling the actual cars then they must be making money on associated things which is often the case, when there was the California gold rush for instance a few lucky prospectors struck it big but most lost money.
The people that made money weren't those panning for gold but the people who set up stores to sell the prospectors food; shovels; pans; dynamite etc or the saloon owner with gambling tables and "Rooms by the hour" upstairs, disgusting thought eh  ;)

You would think so, but AIUI problem is noone cares (enough) about QA at the factory. Anecdotally shutlines etc are better on Made In China Model 3s which are being imported to the European mainland. When the Berlin Gigafactory comes on line it should be using German workers and managers who have the German mindset over build quality. Also the Texas Gigafactory, when that comes on line should have a proper paint shop. The one in California is rubbish and poor paint quality is I hear a major complaint of Tesla owners.

As regards customer service - another massive area of complaint. And of course they have no dealers. Tesla prefer cars to be written off rather than repaired - they blocked a Youtuber ("Rich Rebuilds") from running a repair shop for Teslas. Writing cars off and making a new one is of course terrible for the environment - although Musk says his motivation is sustainability as opposed to environmental / climate change.


Does seem a liitle unfair as the I-Pace (like the E-Pace) is actually built by Magna Steyr in Austria, who have build many cars for the likes of Mercedes and BMW (including the current 5 Series) and Audi!

Yeah - Tesla has made a profit by selling carbon credits to polluting companies.

Edit - to correct price for Model Y above. I believe $49K is the LR price, and Model Y starts at $43K for the SR.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 02:44:31 pm by lostandfound »

Offline chrishornx

Personal fortunes and empires rise but they also fall however there is a difference between an over valued asset and a complete bubble which will eventually burst.

The other thing is that while sales haven't been massive sometimes the value of a company isn't just about the current sales but about the potential and this is especially true of stocks which are Tech orientated, Tesla is listed on the NASDAQ

There will be other factors that have the Tesla price high in that a lot of Tech stocks are currently much higher than they were 12 months ago pre covid as they have actually benefited from the virus, also known as the FAANG's (Facebook; Axxxxxx; Apple; Netflix and Google), the upswing for Tesla when the sector does well is that tracker funds then also buy Tesla.

I believe there are only about 5 or 6 places worldwide currently identified as being viable for mining Lithium needed for the batteries and Elon has been looking to make deals to ensure supply and also form his own mining companies etc to cut the battery cost by 50%
Having an assured supply of the basic material could be deemed as a valuable asset in itself which will boost the share price

I went in a Tesla a couple of months back and the guy stuck his foot down from about 20 miles an hour, Fucking warp speed I went dizzy it was like being on a roller coaster  :drinks:

all very true and fair BP

and they do move like shit off a shovel