Have we learnt anything about ourselves during the pandemic?

[sir wanksalot]

My parents used to talk to me about the collective spirit during the last war. How everyone pulled together, streets, towns, the country, all helping towards one common goal.

I kind of envied that solidarity but then reminded myself to be grateful that I hadn't lived during an event like a war.

What I have learnt during the pandemic is that as a society we do not "pull together" in times of national adversity and maybe we never really did. Perhaps my parents looked back at those times with rose coloured glasses-who knows?

All we did this time round was applaud the NHS for a couple of minutes for a few weeks. That, to me, seemed the closest we came to come kind of connected/shared expression. Even then most of the people around me didn't bother.

Sorry for the dour tone of this post but what I have learnt is that people are generally selfish and self absorbed. The good ones shine out because they stand out from the rest.

[Gordon Bennett]

The tales my mum told me about the war mostly revolve around a thriving black market and shitting on your neighbours if it meant you could snaffle yourself an extra ounce of butter. I think dewey-eyed recollections about the good old days are mostly wishful thinking to be honest.

[MilleMiglia]

The fact that we now demonize the likes of Winston Churchill, Sir John Moore and Sir John Hawkins tells you all you need to know about the way this country has gone.

[ulstersubbie]

The tales my mum told me about the war mostly revolve around a thriving black market and shitting on your neighbours if it meant you could snaffle yourself an extra ounce of butter. I think dewey-eyed recollections about the good old days are mostly wishful thinking to be honest.

Quite, looking at the past through rose tinted spectacles is always a dubious exercise. The gangster Frankie Fraser loved telling people how WW2 was a godsend for the likes of him and his fellow underworld criminals.

[alabama1]

I have learnt that porn is a life saver   

[lostandfound]

Hmm ... tbh you ask "have we learnt anything about ourselves" and then pass judgement on other people. 

[Wadebridge]

My parents used to talk to me about the collective spirit during the last war. How everyone pulled together, streets, towns, the country, all helping towards one common goal.

I kind of envied that solidarity but then reminded myself to be grateful that I hadn't lived during an event like a war.

What I have learnt during the pandemic is that as a society we do not "pull together" in times of national adversity and maybe we never really did. Perhaps my parents looked back at those times with rose coloured glasses-who knows?

All we did this time round was applaud the NHS for a couple of minutes for a few weeks. That, to me, seemed the closest we came to come kind of connected/shared expression. Even then most of the people around me didn't bother.

Sorry for the dour tone of this post but what I have learnt is that people are generally selfish and self absorbed. The good ones shine out because they stand out from the rest.

Very good post sir. I agree with every single word.

There probably were one or two self-centred, undesirable, mean-spirited people around during the decade of the war; my grandparents told me stories of a publican who was a bit of a neighbour from hell, for example; but these few bad apples were more than eclipsed by the generally philanthropic nature of the majority of the war-time population.

I think the United Kingdom is too detached, too 'diverse', and too unequal a society now, to achieve any chance of cohesion. Any hope of working together towards a common goal is a lost fantasy.
We see all these traits in everyday life; clearing of supermarket shelves; car horns of impatient imbeciles blaring during rush hour traffic; disgusting littering of streets and countryside. All of this points to a deep-seated lack of thought and a lack of respect for fellow people and environment.
In most workplaces throughout the land there exists unfairness, bias, managerial incompetence, point-scoring, 'empire building', and 'underhand manoevring', to advance the careers of a selected few. Such opinionated, self-centred, unforgiving, and ruthless behaviour is also just as evident in the highest echelons of society such as in Parliament.

The life ethic of 'respecting one's elders' has long since disappeared.
Maybe increased leniency towards crime, abolishing harsh discipline where it was necessary in schools, and the advent of the internet, which has had the effect of making young children 'grow up too fast', have all played a relevant part and is each in some small way to blame.
Or maybe there are other factors at play for the UK, since some other European countries and other parts of the world have experienced the same 'advancement' and 'political correctness' as the years have progressed yet don't seem to suffer the malaise of society to the same degree.

[sir wanksalot]

Hmm ... tbh you ask "have we learnt anything about ourselves" and then pass judgement on other people. 

TBH.....whenever someone says "passing judgement on other people" it comes across a little snowflakish.

It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[standardpostage]

Negatives = panic buying.

Positives = the things we can live without eg, hair cuts, pubs, clubs, holidays abroad and at home, dentists, clothes shops etc.

[Thephoenix]

I thought that the unavailability of punting services during the lockdown might enable me to permanently reduce or even retire from my hobby, as because of age the experience is often not as satisfactory .

The reality is it's made me realise how addicted I am to punting.

[lostandfound]

TBH.....whenever someone says "passing judgement on other people" it comes across a little snowflakish.

It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Whenever someone  says things were better before they were even born it comes across as a little deluded. 

[Wadebridge]

Positives = the things we can live without eg, hair cuts, pubs, clubs, holidays abroad and at home, dentists, clothes shops etc.

We can't live without haircuts "Robinson Crusoe"! 
Tbh, I confess I do miss the pub. I used to enjoy a natter and catch up with London friends occasionally I hadn't seen for a month or so.
The pandemic has changed that scene for ever. I wonder if most pubs will survive long enough for 'normality' to eventually return (if it ever does).

[sir wanksalot]

Whenever someone  says things were better before they were even born it comes across as a little deluded. 

Right....and who said that?

[lostandfound]

Right....and who said that?

Hmm ... what was it I said about a capacity for self delusion? 

[sir wanksalot]

Hmm ... what was it I said about a capacity for self delusion? 

Where did I say times were better before I was born?

[lostandfound]

Where did I say times were better before I was born?

OK, let's add pedantry to self delusion. 

[sir wanksalot]

OK, let's add pedantry to self delusion. 

"What I have learnt during the pandemic is that as a society we do not "pull together" in times of national adversity and maybe we never really did. Perhaps my parents looked back at those times with rose coloured glasses-who knows?"

And you accuse others of "passing judement" 

[lostandfound]

"What I have learnt during the pandemic is that as a society we do not "pull together" in times of national adversity and maybe we never really did. Perhaps my parents looked back at those times with rose coloured glasses-who knows?"

And you accuse others of "passing judement" 

How have you learnt that as a society we do not pull together?

It's nonsense. What is the NHS and the whole Welfare State, and the furlough scheme etc. if not society pulling together?

In my own neighbourhood we have a very active Facebook group and people giving out their phone numbers for anyone who is vulnerable or isolated and needs help eg with shopping, or just someone to talk to.

What have you done in your neighbourhood to foster "pulling together"?

[Moby Dick]

I’ve learnt to use my left hand.
Variety is the spice of life, or something like that.

[sir wanksalot]

How have you learnt that as a society we do not pull together?

It's nonsense. What is the NHS and the whole Welfare State, and the furlough scheme etc. if not society pulling together?

In my own neighbourhood we have a very active Facebook group and people giving out their phone numbers for anyone who is vulnerable or isolated and needs help eg with shopping, or just someone to talk to.

What have you done in your neighbourhood to foster "pulling together"?

You are very good at avoiding any explanations aren't you?

You act like I said something which offended you although if you read my post more carefully then you would learn I did not say "life was better before" only that my parents painted a picture that it might have been.......... but let's not allow the facts to get in the way of your indignation.

Please explain to me why you cite the NHS, the Welfare State and the furlough scheme as evidence that today's society pulls together? Isn't that more about governmental measures rather than individuals demonstrating they are thinking of the Whole rather than the Self?

The furlough scheme is a crappy example as people did not voluntarily adopt it and it certainly doesn't act as any type of evidence that people are looking after each other.

I am well aware that there are groups of people who are more public spirited than others-I have seen Facebook groups too where it restores my faith in humanity. However, I also suspect that many members of these community groups possibly assume everyone has the same attitude to community engagement as themselves and that just isn't true.....sadly.

And it is none of your business what I have done in my own neighbourhood. This isn't a competition and nor is it personal. I was merely expressing an opinion. I am sorry this bothers you so much.

[willie loman]

In Glasgow alone there were 10,000 deserters in hiding during the second world war, an interesting book by Charles Glass on the subject, it seems the overall no for British desertions was 100,000,

[chrishornx]

it is rather hard to 'pull together' when the prime purpose of the last 9 months or so has been to stay apart and isolate

there certainly isn't a 'them and us ' type mentality that existed in the war which would have helped but nevertheless there has certainly been some pulling together as a nation

[threechilliman]

it is rather hard to 'pull together' when the prime purpose of the last 9 months or so has been to stay apart and isolate

there certainly isn't a 'them and us ' type mentality that existed in the war which would have helped but nevertheless there has certainly been some pulling together as a nation

There certainly has. I had a tug last night

[lostandfound]

You are very good at avoiding any explanations aren't you?

You act like I said something which offended you although if you read my post more carefully then you would learn I did not say "life was better before" only that my parents painted a picture that it might have been.......... but let's not allow the facts to get in the way of your indignation.

Please explain to me why you cite the NHS, the Welfare State and the furlough scheme as evidence that today's society pulls together? Isn't that more about governmental measures rather than individuals demonstrating they are thinking of the Whole rather than the Self?

The furlough scheme is a crappy example as people did not voluntarily adopt it and it certainly doesn't act as any type of evidence that people are looking after each other.

I am well aware that there are groups of people who are more public spirited than others-I have seen Facebook groups too where it restores my faith in humanity. However, I also suspect that many members of these community groups possibly assume everyone has the same attitude to community engagement as themselves and that just isn't true.....sadly.

And it is none of your business what I have done in my own neighbourhood. This isn't a competition and nor is it personal. I was merely expressing an opinion. I am sorry this bothers you so much.

Avoiding explanations? 

I'm not the one claiming there is no societal will to pull together in this situation without providing any supporting evidence to back up that baseless opinion.

Who are you to judge everyone else? It's entirely reasonable to respond to that by asking what you are doing to help others.

Oh - and hiding behind a wimpy codicil suggesting that maybe your mum was full of shit after all is just gratuitously insulting your own mother. 

If you don't understand why the Welfare State etc is society pulling together maybe you need to enroll on some online courses to learn the basics. 

[winkywanky]

Avoiding explanations? 

I'm not the one claiming there is no societal will to pull together in this situation without providing any supporting evidence to back up that baseless opinion.

Who are you to judge everyone else? It's entirely reasonable to respond to that by asking what you are doing to help others.

Oh - and hiding behind a wimpy codicil suggesting that maybe your mum was full of shit after all is just gratuitously insulting your own mother. 

If you don't understand why the Welfare State etc is society pulling together maybe you need to enroll on some online courses to learn the basics. 

This is not my argument and it's none of my business (other than your attitude is causing unnecessary grief on the forum), but you misinterpreted sir wanksalot's post, haven't had the good grace to apologise or even recognise that you did so, started another unrelated and spurious argument to cover your tracks, and now you're accusing the OP of insulting his own mum.

Who taught you to be such a cunt, or were you self-taught?

(Hands up here, I had a run-in with you and I rose to it, but you seem to be following the same pattern, when in the case of sir w it's totally unwarranted. Oh, and the other thing you do when you get caught out is to use really big words to try and make yourself sound important. Give the guy a break).

[tynetunnel]

Whenever someone  says things were better before they were even born it comes across as a little deluded. 

Since he never said that, you’re plainly the one who is deluded 

[chrishornx]

There certainly has. I had a tug last night

proof is in the tugging

[lostandfound]

This is not my argument and it's none of my business (other than your attitude is causing unnecessary grief on the forum), but you misinterpreted sir wanksalot's post, haven't had the good grace to apologise or even recognise that you did so, started another unrelated and spurious argument to cover your tracks, and now you're accusing the OP of insulting his own mum.

Who taught you to be such a cunt, or were you self-taught?

(Hands up here, I had a run-in with you and I rose to it, but you seem to be following the same pattern, when in the case of sir w it's totally unwarranted. Oh, and the other thing you do when you get caught out is to use really big words to try and make yourself sound important. Give the guy a break).

I don't believe I did misinterpret his post. False nostalgia for a time that did not exist is a recurring reactionary pattern on the part of some - and in that context harking back to WW2 and the time of Empire is a common theme.

Superego driven sweeping statements criticising society as a whole, esp modern society is another thing. Apologies for using the word Superego!

I believe both attitudes are not to be admired, and calling them out is not an irresponsible thing to do.

Also cut and thrust in argument is fun and should not be taken too seriously. I don't take my self too serious. Do you?

[winkywanky]

I don't believe I did misinterpret his post. False nostalgia for a time that did not exist is a recurring reactionary pattern on the part of some - and in that context harking back to WW2 and the time of Empire is a common theme.

Superego driven sweeping statements criticising society as a whole, esp modern society is another thing. Apologies for using the word Superego!

I believe both attitudes are not to be admired, and calling them out is not an irresponsible thing to do.

Also cut and thrust in argument is fun and should not be taken too seriously. I don't take my self too serious. Do you?

I have no business in this thread because I haven't posted my own opinion in it, but sw was clearly talking about people in general, not the official establishment/govt response. You've wilfully twisted what he said. And it's not cut and thrust, you're bringing his mother into it. Bang out of order. I'll say no more.

[lostandfound]

I have no business in this thread because I haven't posted my own opinion in it, but sw was clearly talking about people in general, not the official establishment/govt response. You've wilfully twisted what he said. And it's not cut and thrust, you're bringing his mother into it. Bang out of order. I'll say no more.

The UK is a long established democracy which after centuries of pulling together as a society established the Welfare State etc as a further expression of pulling together.

You are seeking to characterise / emotionalise the argument in the same way as the argument you had with me.

[winkywanky]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................................

[lostandfound]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.................................

 

[winkywanky]

Shameless fucking deflection on your part every time. A really fucking tiresome trait. Glad you seem to get off on it.

[lostandfound]

Shameless fucking deflection on your part every time. A really fucking tiresome trait. Glad you seem to get off on it.

It's not deflection, it's a rational response, to which your response may be fairly described as "you're a cunt". Or is that unfair? Is that not what you do?

[sir wanksalot]

Avoiding explanations? 

I'm not the one claiming there is no societal will to pull together in this situation without providing any supporting evidence to back up that baseless opinion.

Who are you to judge everyone else? It's entirely reasonable to respond to that by asking what you are doing to help others.

Oh - and hiding behind a wimpy codicil suggesting that maybe your mum was full of shit after all is just gratuitously insulting your own mother. 

If you don't understand why the Welfare State etc is society pulling together maybe you need to enroll on some online courses to learn the basics. 

How can I provide you supporting evidence for the lack of any meaningful "pulling together" for something that doesn't demonstrably exist? That is my whole point.I cannot prove that something does not exist. I can only comment if I notice it absent.

You, on the other hand, claim the opposite and cite the NHS, the Welfare State and the furlough scheme (WTF????) as shining examples of how our society has come together during this national crisis. When I asked you to explain why and how someone could think of these as examples you avoided elaborating on your points, hence my comment that you're very good at avoiding explanations.

You also made a comment that anyone who claims life was better is a little deluded but again, when I asked you who actually said that you again avoid the question.

You're clearly part of the new wave of sensitives who believe that anyone expressing their opinion is "passing judgement" yet you have the audacity to suggest that my mum is full of shit and even believe your comment to be funny. Funny how someone tries to protect society's reputation on an inconsequential post on a punting forum but is more than happy to cast personal aspersions about that poster's mother.

I have highlighted the sections in bold to give you another opportunity to explain why you have made those points......just in case you accidentally avoided my questions. No doubt you will side step the the opportunity to support your argument.

[lostandfound]

You assert that society did not pull together - and it's just your opinion. I assert the opposite.

The only evidence you advanced was a positive - people applauding the NHS.

On the basis of the available evidence, I think I won?

You introduced your Mum into the discussion, and you yourself suggested she was talking nonsense.

Was it the word "shit" you found shocking! 

[chrishornx]

You introduced your Mum into the discussion, and you yourself suggested she was talking nonsense.

Where?? I don't necessarily agree with OP as I think there has been some great pulling together although with limited possibilities as we have had to stay apart but where did OP use Mum before you did ??

[lostandfound]

"Parents"

Fair dos - I failed to consider the possibility that the OP's parents were a same sex male couple, or even that he may have been brought up by a same sex male commune.

[VolapUK]

Positives = the things we can live without eg, hair cuts

I can confirm this - my girlfriend loves to play with my hair, so no hair cuts for me! 

[Moby Dick]

I thought that the unavailability of punting services during the lockdown might enable me to permanently reduce or even retire from my hobby, as because of age the experience is often not as satisfactory .

The reality is it's made me realise how addicted I am to punting.

I knew I was an addict long before this pandemic.

I’ve learnt that buying shit on Amazon is as equally draining of my time and money, but removing layers of cardboard and getting to the contents ain’t as much fun as getting naked with a lass and cumming on her face... due a relapse anytime soon.

[Payyourwaymate]

Why is it a surprise that when the going gets tough it's everyman for themselves. Italy as a country got abandoned by the EU in its dire time of need earlier on this year when everything kicked off. Frontline workers were left to deal with onslaught with minimal to no protection, jobs lost, misery and loneliness all over. It's always been like this. Don't fall for the romanticism of we are all it it together. The masses are crabs in a bucket financially speaking. It's the pecuniary strength of people and companies that has been exposed in this pandemic. All those with £££££££ have relatively been unaffected apart from not being able to travel about and other minor inconviences. It's those that are not well off that are the most affected by this. Unless you are wealthy then you can privatise gains with your fellow wealthy buddies and socialise loses onto the weaker financial masses, that's only when "we are all in this together" applies. The stock market is at an all time high in the middle of one of the worst recessions on record. Says it all really.

[chrishornx]

"Parents"

Fair dos - I failed to consider the possibility that the OP's parents were a same sex male couple, or even that he may have been brought up by a same sex male commune.

not quiet the same you shrunk it down to just Mum not OP which was perhaps getting very personal and  a mistake by you

[sir wanksalot]

You assert that society did not pull together - and it's just your opinion. I assert the opposite.

The only evidence you advanced was a positive - people applauding the NHS.

On the basis of the available evidence, I think I won?

You introduced your Mum into the discussion, and you yourself suggested she was talking nonsense.

Was it the word "shit" you found shocking! 

And I will ask you again.

How is the furlough scheme an example of "society pulling together"? It's a point that YOU made so I presume there is some substance behind that point or are you just talking shit and when pulled up about it you dance onto another stupid remark.

Are you afraid to answer the question? Don't be. I know you can do it. Grown ups will make a point and then elaborate upon it if challenged. If you can't answer the question then let's assume you're just spouting shit and end the discussion. I don't argue with idiots.

[NIK]

The Covid restrictions have barely affected me.

I have very few friends and family and didn’t visit them or have them visit me.
I have never been to a gym in my life. A leisure centre for thirty years, or a sports event, theatre or cinema for ten years. Being a passionate atheist I would sooner chop my knob off than go to a ‘place of worship.’
I bought hair clippers before the pandemic to save on going for haircuts.
I did go to restaurants but pretty infrequently.
Whilst my pub going, which had been a regular feature of my life, was already in significant decline and I had become a fair weather pub garden only visitor prior to the pandemic. Haven’t been to a pub since February and I haven’t missed it. I do drink at home, and can drink for a week for what a couple of pub visits cost.

I did like browsing shops, but for the past 10 years have done nearly all my everyday purchases at Sainsbury’s. I know we are urged to support small shops, but I have always preferred the one stop, easy parking convenience of the large supermarkets. Selfish I know, but I am not alone.
I was pretty much retired before the pandemic and I suppose that has brought it forward. I would like to work, but the pandemic has made it increasingly difficult. I suppose that is the only way it has really affected me. Although it is a major one.

There must be hundreds of thousands like me without family or friends who do not bother about Christmas or give a toss what bloody silly ‘tier’ we are living in.

[NIK]

One way the pandemic has changed me is that I barely watch the news anymore. I used to watch or listen to it several times a day, often from begin to end. But now I switch it on, hear a few seconds of statistics (which may not lie, but can be manipulated to mean what the speaker wants them to), or the latest bloody silly, inconsistent and ultimately ludicrous measures, and I switch it off again.

[chrishornx]

I don't argue with idiots.

that is exactly what you seem to be intent on doing.

L&F has  'over egged' the Furlough issue but many millions were furloughed and locally and nationally we did see people stuck at home pulling together making the best of lockdown...we saw neighbours exercising together on the road, local help groups popped up to help do food deliveries for the elderly, Zoom chat groups, neighbours help groups flourished and all sorts of internet group involvement - all small matters individually but all important

[chrishornx]

One way the pandemic has changed me is that I barely watch the news anymore. I used to watch or listen to it several times a day, often from begin to end. But now I switch it on, hear a few seconds of statistics (which may not lie, but can be manipulated to mean what the speaker wants them to), or the latest bloody silly, inconsistent and ultimately ludicrous measures, and I switch it off again.

got to sympathise with that it is overkill on the news

[Wadebridge]

One way the pandemic has changed me is that I barely watch the news anymore. I used to watch or listen to it several times a day, often from begin to end.

I could almost repeat your two sentences word for word @Nik, except to replace email the word 'news' by 'political debate'. By that I mean TV programmes like 'Politics Live', 'Question Time', 'The Andrew Marr Show' etc.

But one observation I have found very puzzling about this pandemic is how various news correspondents seem regularly to throw caution to the wind and put themselves in danger and at risk of contracting the disease, and yet none seem to succumb.
By way of an example,  C4's health correspondent Victoria McDonald, visiting the wards of covid inundated hospitals, speaking to doctors and staff on the front line. Hugh Pym too, has done similar for the BBC.
Jonathan Rugman,  C4's International Affairs correspondent, was reporting the other night from South Dakota,  in America's midwest, which although rural has USA's biggest covid surge. Local hospitals are already overwhelmed so the sick have had to be sent to other infirmaries outside the state.  Yet here was Rugman talking inside a Dakota household to a housewife whose own husband is currently fighting the virus in hospital. He was wearing a mask, she wasn't.

It's a similar story with MPs. Apart from the PM, and apparently a Bolton Labour MP, who got as far as the pneumonia stage, very few have appeared to suffer serious disease, in spite of Westminster being a hotbed for the virus, with several MPs over these last 9 months having been tested and confirmed positive.
 
Maybe covid is substantially harder to catch than we are led to believe.
Or maybe if you're on an impressively big salary; way above the £24,000 pa national average; like correspondents and politicians are, your BUPA subscriptions count.

[Strawberry]

The tales my mum told me about the war mostly revolve around a thriving black market and shitting on your neighbours if it meant you could snaffle yourself an extra ounce of butter. I think dewey-eyed recollections about the good old days are mostly wishful thinking to be honest.

And of course the current situation has social media, as well as access to the media news instantaneously.

In the past prior to this I would guess news was limited, out of date and exposure was mostly to a person's immediate contacts only.

Now we are fed a stream of biased information even if that bias is who a person choses to 'follow', or the subset who chose to post on social media.

[NIK]

I could almost repeat your two sentences word for word @Nik, except to replace email the word 'news' by 'political debate'. By that I mean TV programmes like 'Politics Live', 'Question Time', 'The Andrew Marr Show' etc.

But one observation I have found very puzzling about this pandemic is how various news correspondents seem regularly to throw caution to the wind and put themselves in danger and at risk of contracting the disease, and yet none seem to succumb.
By way of an example,  C4's health correspondent Victoria McDonald, visiting the wards of covid inundated hospitals, speaking to doctors and staff on the front line. Hugh Pym too, has done similar for the BBC.
Jonathan Rugman,  C4's International Affairs correspondent, was reporting the other night from South Dakota,  in America's midwest, which although rural has USA's biggest covid surge. Local hospitals are already overwhelmed so the sick have had to be sent to other infirmaries outside the state.  Yet here was Rugman talking inside a Dakota household to a housewife whose own husband is currently fighting the virus in hospital. He was wearing a mask, she wasn't.

It's a similar story with MPs. Apart from the PM, and apparently a Bolton Labour MP, who got as far as the pneumonia stage, very few have appeared to suffer serious disease, in spite of Westminster being a hotbed for the virus, with several MPs over these last 9 months having been tested and confirmed positive.
 
Maybe covid is substantially harder to catch than we are led to believe.
Or maybe if you're on an impressively big salary; way above the £24,000 pa national average; like correspondents and politicians are, your BUPA subscriptions count.

Yes, I also used to watch Question Time every week (but often fall asleep before the end  ). Since the pandemic I think I have watched barely 20 minutes in total. Like pub going, I think this is a habit that I won't return to when things 'return to normal'