London black cabs v Uber

[finn5555]

I wonder who will survive

London taxis stored in fields as passenger demand 'evaporates' External Link/Members Only

[daviemac]

All a bit pointless unless you have any stats regarding how many mini cabs are now out of use so a comparison can be made. Knowing the numbers of both is the only way to get an indication of which will come out best.

The country is in lockdown so all forms of transport will be in a similar situation with the obvious drop in passengers.

Unless of course this is just aimed at one member.   

[binbag]

I haven't used a London taxi for ages but I suspect they haven't changed much in the last 20 yrs. If that's true  they'll die out without protection rules unless they adapt to the Uber business model. Uber offers a great service and will succeed anywhere they are allowed to do business. In spite of all the scaremongering about mistreatment of drivers and passengers, I've never met an Uber driver or passenger in any city who doesn't love the service.

[Waterhouse]

Unless of course this is just aimed at one member.   

Of course it is.  Just a pointless bait thread from a known wind-up merchant now that JRC has piped up again recently.

[daviemac]

Of course it is.  Just a pointless bait thread from a known wind-up merchant now that JRC has piped up again recently.

That's why I'm watching it.   

[tintin100]

Black cabs are just too expensive and this has nothing to do with Covid. I was behind a black cab and I could see the meter running as we was stuck in heavy traffic, it had clocked up about £20 in less then a mile but we was there for about 30- 40 minutes, this was about 10 years ago.   

[mr.bluesky]

Of course it is.  Just a pointless bait thread from a known wind-up merchant now that JRC has piped up again recently.

We wait with eager anticipation for JRC's reply. Hang on a sec. I'll just get me popcorn . This could be entertaining. (wonder if there's any Uber drivers on this site) 

[finn5555]

Unless of course this is just aimed at one member.   

It’s not aimed at any particular member, there are I believe somewhere in the region of 50,000Uber drivers in London I just wonder if the black cab industry seeks some kind of bail out from government would Uber want the same 

[daviemac]

It’s not aimed at any particular member, there are I believe somewhere in the region of 50,000Uber drivers in London I just wonder if the black cab industry seeks some kind of bail out from government would Uber want the same 

Like I said to make any sort of comparison you need to know how many Uber cabs are still operating. There may have been one in three Uber cabs taken off the road compared to one in five black cabs and that would put them in a worse position.

[willie loman]

It’s not aimed at any particular member, there are I believe somewhere in the region of 50,000Uber drivers in London I just wonder if the black cab industry seeks some kind of bail out from government would Uber want the same 

I imagine every reader of this forum knows your motivation, an achievement of a sort i suppose. Uber will survive, their drivers and their vehicles are part time, at the very beginning of lock down they laid off their salaried staff big time. However the health of either sector can depend on legislation, its difficult going forward to see any city in Europe continuing to allow free access to anyone who fancies driving about,for business or leisure, there will be a numerus clausus. A simple law saying all vehicles must be adapted for handicapped passengers, or drivers in possession of a couple of college modules,a valid national insurance no  and uber will be in serious difficulty.

[finn5555]

Like I said to make any sort of comparison you need to know how many Uber cabs are still operating. There may have been one in three Uber cabs taken off the road compared to one in five black cabs and that would put them in a worse position.

That I don’t know 🤷‍♂️ if you look on the app plenty of Uber cars available. My guess is they will fare better as they can come and go depending on demand. You could say the same about black cabs as well I guess.

[chrishornx]

some perspective

uber usage down nearly 50%

External Link/Members Only

[Jimmyredcab]

That's why I'm watching it.   

It's OK, I'm not going to feed the obvious Troll.

You asked about numbers, there are curently 14,906 black cabs operating within the M25 compared to 83,962 private hire vehicles, TFL don't keep separate numbers of Uber drivers because their licence is simply private hire which means they can also work for a mini cab office as well as Uber.
Obviously Covid has affected all forms of transport especially with millions now working from home, it's no longer a problem for me as I no longer work.

External Link/Members Only

[Horizontal pleasures]

it's no longer a problem for me as I no longer work.

so how do you travel to your punts?

[standardpostage]

I got an electric / battery black cab in London a couple of years ago.

It was very smart and quite.

Cost me £10. I was walking to my destination originally, but got lost, then got tired, so hailed the cab.

Driver was very polite and friendly.

[Hobbit]

I haven't used a London taxi for ages but I suspect they haven't changed much in the last 20 yrs. If that's true  they'll die out without protection rules unless they adapt to the Uber business model. Uber offers a great service and will succeed anywhere they are allowed to do business. In spite of all the scaremongering about mistreatment of drivers and passengers, I've never met an Uber driver or passenger in any city who doesn't love the service.

I'm sure London black taxi drivers will hate me saying this but like most business models that have not survived over the years are the ones that don't tend to adapt to change. If London black taxis want to continue working successfully in London then they will need to compete with companies like Uber. What they shouldn't do is try to hold a monopoly over the taxi franchise for heritage sake. Because they can't and eventually will fail.

I personally have used black taxis in the past and have always enjoyed the conversations with the drivers. However, the running meter charge that they have maintained for years is just too much compared to companies like Uber who are much cheaper and easier to get hold of by just using a click on an app. I would love to see the London Black Cabs continue because for decades they have been a symbolic part of London and without them it would seem quite odd but they need to adapt rather than complain about other taxi firms.

[fudi_maar]

Contentious issue this, but I simply must reply. I used black cabs in the 90's and 00's when I had no other option, and none of them were a pleasant experience. Expensive (ok, I can live with that), unfriendly and downright obnoxious drivers. One of them even shouted at me when I got into his cab at Heathrow and told him where I wanted to go. And he cursed all the way, cos the journey wasn't long enough for his liking. Cunt.
One of my friends went from Heathrow to Hammersmith (about 15 miles) and paid £90, and this was 10 years ago. And not to mention situations where I'm driving in my personal car when there are black cabs over-taking you from all directions, doing U-turns in the most inappropriate places, and engaging in road rage, and verbal abuse un-necessarily.

Black cabs have been a 'closed shop' and a monopolistic operation for decades - but like most of their drivers, their time has come to retire. I won't miss them one bit.

Uber? Yep, bring it on.

[Blackpool Rock]

Contentious issue this, but I simply must reply. I used black cabs in the 90's and 00's when I had no other option, and none of them were a pleasant experience. Expensive (ok, I can live with that), unfriendly and downright obnoxious drivers. One of them even shouted at me when I got into his cab at Heathrow and told him where I wanted to go. And he cursed all the way, cos the journey wasn't long enough for his liking. Cunt.
One of my friends went from Heathrow to Hammersmith (about 15 miles) and paid £90, and this was 10 years ago. And not to mention situations where I'm driving in my personal car when there are black cabs over-taking you from all directions, doing U-turns in the most inappropriate places, and engaging in road rage, and verbal abuse un-necessarily.

Black cabs have been a 'closed shop' and a monopolistic operation for decades - but like most of their drivers, their time has come to retire. I won't miss them one bit.

Uber? Yep, bring it on.

I've had mixed experience with black can drivers and if you can get one who is normal / nice and chatty without being self opinionated then it's actually quite good fun to have a bit of banter etc

On the flip side i've also had bad experience and got what I can only call a stereotypical cockney wanker who like you picked me up from Heathrow and moaned like a whining cunt from start to finish, probably the same prick as you got 

His 1st gripe was where I was going (Ealing common from Heathrow after arriving at the airport and not being able to get a connection to Manchester due to fog, basically there were 1000's of stranded people all looking for hotels and that was the 1st and nearest I could get at 21.00)
On leaving the airport some official asked him where he was dropping off and his response was "Ealing common of all places" which is when I twigged he was a twat. 
He then proceeded to whine about the fact that the airport charged the cabbie based on the destination and were ripping cabbies off, so don't ply your fucking trade there then 

Just looked and it's about 10 miles, it cost me £45 about 12 years ago, i'm sure the robbing cunt went the long way 

By contrast the mini cab I booked for the next morning was £20 including the tip   

[Colston36]

I wonder who will survive

London taxis stored in fields as passenger demand 'evaporates' External Link/Members Only

Black cabs are incredibly expensive. Uber tends to vary a hell of a lot, and is unavailable in lots of places out in the country where I live. I can't drive which has had the unexpected effect of saving me a fortune during the past few months

[Xtro]

I imagine every reader of this forum knows your motivation, an achievement of a sort i suppose. Uber will survive, their drivers and their vehicles are part time, at the very beginning of lock down they laid off their salaried staff big time. However the health of either sector can depend on legislation, its difficult going forward to see any city in Europe continuing to allow free access to anyone who fancies driving about,for business or leisure, there will be a numerus clausus. A simple law saying all vehicles must be adapted for handicapped passengers, or drivers in possession of a couple of college modules,a valid national insurance no  and uber will be in serious difficulty.

That's one reason why minicabs got off the ground. Black cabs wouldn't dare pick up fares from notorious housing estates dotted around London, let alone go south of the river! (The south of the river bit might be untrue but I've been refused to go somewhere by a black cab because....insert BS excuse here!)
Where a void is created, someone will fill that void. Minicabs/private hire/Uber will always have a place in the transportation sector, like it or not. 

Changes came in about 20 years ago, tightening up the laws/regulations for private hire drivers and their vehicles.
But still, illegal minicabs trawled the streets of the West End literally stopping at every person walking the streets and asking if they wanted a cab. As usual, not much was done about these touts, thus giving the vast majority of private hire drivers (who take this seriously), a bad name. Whether that was orchestrated or not, I don't know, but I've witnessed police cars swerve around the touts as they plyed for hire.

I've nothing against black cabs, and realise they are unique in the fact that they are public hire and serve a purpose; however, if they aren't there when you need one, the customer will find an alternative.

[NIK]

Can't Uber threads go the same way as political ones? 

[finn5555]

I find Uber to be clean realistically priced and very reliable so have no hesitation in using them

[Horizontal pleasures]

I had a serious cycling accident some years ago on the A5 Edgware Road by the flyover near Paddington. A car drove into me at speed and knocked me off my bike and damaged it.

It was a black cab driver who witnessed the accident and called an ambulance and the police and so saved my life. The same black cab chased the driver who created the accident and passed the number onto the police.

Through the owner/driver taxi association I traced him to say thank you. I was then able to ID which police station was dealing with it and recuperate my bike.

BIG THANKS to the driver of the Black Cab.
I have never used an Uber.
(I gave up cycling, too dangerous).

(It was a BLACK cab not a RED one!)

[DonDickDraper]

I’ve never used an Uber while in Britain.
Might have to now that I’m feeling the monetary effects of the lockdown.

[Pedalwall]

Black cabs for me any day. Never used Uber as I don't like the business model where the risk is on the driver and the company takes the profit and pays little in tax etc. Don't use taxis much as I prefer to cycle but last experience of black cab stayed with me. Came out of football in SE London to find I had a front wheel puncture. Needed to get to Paddington - didn't have spare tub and no local bike shop. Saw a black cab who was happy to take me and my bike all the way. Traffic on a Saturday late afternoon/early evening awful so he turned off the meter and we agreed a fare of £20 for journey of 8 miles which took close to one hour!! Very happy. Conversely last experience of Uber was being side swiped by one when I was cycling in Manchester and he pulled out without looking. Managed to stay upright - just - and he sped up without stopping. Caught up with him at the next set of lights and we exchanged 'words'!!

[winkywanky]

I think there'll always be a place for Black Cabs, but they'll have to fight for it and accept changes to remain competitive. And that place will inevitably shrink a little in any case.

Black Cab drivers are professional drivers. Yes, we've all been given grief by the gobby ones and some of them think they own the road, but they know the roads inside out and they're highly regulated. The cab has a number and therefore you know who your driver is.

I've used Uber literally a couple of times, the App is brilliant and they're cheaper than Black cabs. But both times it was clear to me that my (inevitably Asian) driver was not the guy in the pic on the App. It's not a problem for me because I'm a hairy-arsed bloke, but for a woman? (And yes, I should have reported it but didn't).

Why mention the Asian thing? Well it's probably relevant because I should imagine there are members of the same household/extended family who run that car. You might even consider that as relevant in the current Covid climate of course.

I think Black Cabs have things they can learn from Uber, but they need to get their fingers out. Yes, they will always be at a disadvantage because they're more tightly regulated, but that aspect will also be an asset of course, especially for those that don't mind paying the extra.

I guess you might liken it to Royal Mail/Parcelforce dealing with the threat from Hermes/DPD/UPS etc. I sell all my old bits and pieces on eBay, and in terms of trackability, cost and insuring sent items, Royal Mail always seem to lose hands down when I search online for the best delivery option. However, I bought something from an Italian supplier recently, and there was suddenly proper tracking all the way until there was a knock on my door...by my postie. It seems they've suddenly joined the 21st Century. About bloody time!

It's basically sink or swim, isn't it?

[Mr Sinister]

Uber any day of the week I don't like their business practice but they have shook up and innovated the market for sure. Black cabs just seems dated and a relic of the past have not adapted to the market and people's needs.

[king tarzan]

Don't use neither... Bloody expensive
£55 from East London to other side of London
Hours drive.... Petrol would of been £15 return.. £40 for the hour of someone else driving.. £20 an hour each way!!
Only because my friend was DRUNK!!!!!!!!
My own car or public transport

[Xtro]

Don't use neither... Bloody expensive
£55 from East London to other side of London
Hours drive.... Petrol would of been £15 return.. £40 for the hour of someone else driving.. £20 an hour each way!!
Only because my friend was DRUNK!!!!!!!!
My own car or public transport

Since they've chopped a lot of trees down in London I'm suprised you can get about.         

[winkywanky]

 

[willie loman]

40 years ago, took a bus from glasgow to victoria, black cab to streatham cost more than my coach ticket, black cabs have had a good run for their money, but they were ripe for the taking, but as i have said , all it needs is a couple of bits of legislation, and uber are pretty much dead in the water, in britain anyway.

[mh]

Hours drive.... Petrol would of been £15 return.. £40 for the hour of someone else driving.. £20 an hour each way!!

What hourly rate do you get paid in your current job?
What would you charge a drunk - someone that you don't know - to take them in your car across London, on a 2 hour journey for you?

 

[snaitram99]

40 years ago, took a bus from glasgow to victoria, black cab to streatham cost more than my coach ticket, black cabs have had a good run for their money, but they were ripe for the taking, but as i have said , all it needs is a couple of bits of legislation, and uber are pretty much dead in the water, in britain anyway.

Lucky to get a black cab to go south of the river, according to what people say. 
Could have got a bus or overground train to Streatham if cost was the main concern, although would depend on time of day I suppose.
I think a "hackney cab" will always be expensive for one person. Years since I last took a London black cab, but I recall that if there were 3 or 4 of you, it compared reasonably with the tube.

[winkywanky]

That's a point, with a black cab the fare is the same for a given journey, regardless of the amount of passengers. Correct?

Does the same apply with an Uber?

[Bigwilts]

Neither taxis nor Uber charge per the number of passengers

Taxis are metered and charge by a combination of time and distance, the rate can vary according to time of day and is governed by the local authority.
If you are quoted and agree a fixed price then that’s what you pay, otherwise it’s the actual metered results at the end of the journey

Uber’s rates are pre-estimated in the app giving you a number of choices of vehicles in the area.  The rate is also based on the estimated distance and time.  They can vary according to the ‘class’ of vehicle and also increase with multipliers based on supply and demand in the area at the time.
The rates are governed by Uber’s rules and calculated by the app. You are charged the estimated price (plus any surge multipliers)

[Zak67]

More stock for fake taxi

[tintin100]

Unless they changed the tariffs, last time I was in a black cab, they charge extra for per person, we was in a group of 5.

[snaitram99]

Unless they changed the tariffs, last time I was in a black cab, they charge extra for per person, we was in a group of 5.

External Link/Members Only

TFL says no extra charge per person.

[winkywanky]

Neither taxis nor Uber charge per the number of passengers

Taxis are metered and charge by a combination of time and distance, the rate can vary according to time of day and is governed by the local authority.
If you are quoted and agree a fixed price then that’s what you pay, otherwise it’s the actual metered results at the end of the journey

Uber’s rates are pre-estimated in the app giving you a number of choices of vehicles in the area.  The rate is also based on the estimated distance and time.  They can vary according to the ‘class’ of vehicle and also increase with multipliers based on supply and demand in the area at the time.
The rates are governed by Uber’s rules and calculated by the app. You are charged the estimated price (plus any surge multipliers)

Thanks for the illuminating reply BW .

However, what the fuck is a surge muliplier when it's at home?

[sub_marine]

Black cabs for me any day. Never used Uber as I don't like the business model where the risk is on the driver and the company takes the profit and pays little in tax etc. Don't use taxis much as I prefer to cycle but last experience of black cab stayed with me. Came out of football in SE London to find I had a front wheel puncture. Needed to get to Paddington - didn't have spare tub and no local bike shop. Saw a black cab who was happy to take me and my bike all the way. Traffic on a Saturday late afternoon/early evening awful so he turned off the meter and we agreed a fare of £20 for journey of 8 miles which took close to one hour!! Very happy. Conversely last experience of Uber was being side swiped by one when I was cycling in Manchester and he pulled out without looking. Managed to stay upright - just - and he sped up without stopping. Caught up with him at the next set of lights and we exchanged 'words'!!

Considering Uber is cashless and all paid digitally via the app, there is very little scope for avoiding tax, where as cabbies who handle cash could declare what they like.  As for big multinational corps paying very low rates of tax, thats another issue.  Politicians only do what they think will get them votes, so they pass laws that the electorate demand.  Or they may be getting party donations from said big corps

[GingerNuts]

Thanks for the illuminating reply BW .

However, what the fuck is a surge muliplier when it's at home?

External Link/Members Only

At times of high demand you pay more.

[daviemac]

Considering Uber is cashless and all paid digitally via the app, there is very little scope for avoiding tax, where as cabbies who handle cash could declare what they like.  As for big multinational corps paying very low rates of tax, thats another issue.  Politicians only do what they think will get them votes, so they pass laws that the electorate demand.  Or they may be getting party donations from said big corps

How do they account for the mileage.   

[Blackpool Rock]

How do they account for the mileage.   

I'm guessing if they are self employed then their tax will be done by self assessment but does this self assessment form also ask for the cars mileage every year and if it does is this mileage actually cross checked.

The other thing here is whether the vehicle is used solely for taxi work or whether it's also used as a private vehicle, so if a car does 30K miles in a year of which 20k was taxi work and 10k was private use you could presumably declare 10k or 15K taxi work and the rest private 

Also it's unlikely that 99% of tips would get declared and mileage isn't the only consideration as there is already about £3 on the meter at the point you jump in.
Finally isn't there a different mileage charge for the 1st few miles and then it increases for some reason, not sure if it's the 1st few miles or a different rate once you get out of town. Never understood why the cost goes up once you get out of town on an open road, surely it should come down   

[chrishornx]

How do they account for the mileage.   

fairly simply I would think

As BR suggests plus the black cab meter ticks even when stationary so in London a lot will be earned without mileage being done. A £30 cross town trip could include £7 whilst stationary in travel - "that will be £30 please Guv" he takes the £30 and logs it down as £23

social mileage can be increased to reduce business mileage

And assume a cabbie takes a client from the city to Heathrow for say £70 - he then returns to the city - who would know if he has a client in the back on the return trip?

[daviemac]

I'm guessing if they are self employed then their tax will be done by self assessment but does this self assessment form also ask for the cars mileage every year and if it does is this mileage actually cross checked.

The other thing here is whether the vehicle is used solely for taxi work or whether it's also used as a private vehicle, so if a car does 30K miles in a year of which 20k was taxi work and 10k was private use you could presumably declare 10k or 15K taxi work and the rest private 

Also it's unlikely that 99% of tips would get declared and mileage isn't the only consideration as there is already about £3 on the meter at the point you jump in.
Finally isn't there a different mileage charge for the 1st few miles and then it increases for some reason, not sure if it's the 1st few miles or a different rate once you get out of town. Never understood why the cost goes up once you get out of town on an open road, surely it should come down 

fairly simply I would think

As BR suggests plus the black cab meter ticks even when stationary so in London a lot will be earned without mileage being done. A £30 cross town trip could include £7 whilst stationary in travel - "that will be £30 please Guv" he takes the £30 and logs it down as £23

social mileage can be increased to reduce business mileage

And assume a cabbie takes a client from the city to Heathrow for say £70 - he then returns to the city - who would know if he has a client in the back on the return trip?

If I remember correctly HMRC have their own figures of what they deem acceptable for private use mileage as well as what they estimate the earnings should be. Not foolproof but it is being addressed, when it comes into force taxi drivers will to have to go through a tax check before having their licences renewed. 

Don't forget with HMRC they tell you what you owe and it's up to you to prove otherwise. Mileage is recorded at the annual test so not easy to hide.

[Xtro]

How do they account for the mileage.   

....... And offset for any charity work!   

External Link/Members Only

[chrishornx]

If I remember correctly HMRC have their own figures of what they deem acceptable for private use mileage as well as what they estimate the earnings should be. Not foolproof but it is being addressed, when it comes into force taxi drivers will to have to go through a tax check before having their licences renewed. 

Don't forget with HMRC they tell you what you owe and it's up to you to prove otherwise. Mileage is recorded at the annual test so not easy to hide.

sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question

but fiddling is still possible

[tintin100]

I am sure there a ways to fiddle. a good example would be negotiated fares would not be on the meter right.

[daviemac]

sounds like you had your answer before you asked the question

but fiddling is still possible

Yes, it wasn't designed as an opening to a debate, it was a rhetorical question aimed at sub_marine with him claiming "cabbies who handle cash could declare what they like", something I know not to be true.

With any business or self employed person there are ways to 'fiddle' the system, be that by tax avoidance or tax evasion, but that doesn't mean HMRC will just accept anything. As an example if a driver claims he uses his car privately for 20% of the time, he has to reduce the expenses he claims by 20%.

[Xtro]

Yes, it wasn't designed as an opening to a debate, it was a rhetorical question aimed at sub_marine with him claiming "cabbies who handle cash could declare what they like", something I know not to be true.

With any business or self employed person there are ways to 'fiddle' the system, be that by tax avoidance or tax evasion, but that doesn't mean HMRC will just accept anything. As an example if a driver claims he uses his car privately for 20% of the time, he has to reduce the expenses he claims by 20%.

I believe HMRC have an expected minimum income amount for this profession.