Stinky Rebellion

[lostandfound]

Here's the way it works:

Govt has brought in a plan to go fully EV in 15yrs. It seems reasonable to me. You don't think it's workable. You profess to know a lot about it (perhaps you do) so I'm asking you to give a little more detail around why you don't think it can work. It may be of course that as a self-declared petrolhead you simply don't like the idea.

I'm trying to work out which of those it is, and also whether my own opinion might be changed (I also like cars, appreciate engines and have driven one 'performance orientated brand with a great heritage' for the last 25yrs).

And why even bring Covid into it? You just come across as someone who doesn't like being told what to do, even when it's for the general good (as decreed by govts all over the world). That's a legitimate standpoint but why not simply profess it if that's the case?

I have explained many times over why I think it is unwise. If it is not clear to you please re-read the thread. Or at least ask nicely! 

I used a popular Covid argument as an analogy which would make the point very clearly that EVs are overweight by comparison to ICE vehicles as you appeared unable to grasp it. Like the term "order of magnitude" I expect an adult to be familiar with the use of analogy. Even if you know nothing about EV's it surely makes the point very clearly. 

In response to your accusation I think it is reasonable for me to reply that you come across as someone who cannot admit to being wrong on t'Internet, even when you know little about the topic under discussion.

I am not against EV's. I have posted +vely about them on this board a number of times. I've also said on this board that when the kind of tech and quality offered in a Porsche Taycan is available for the price of a typical ICE Geman premium car, that will be attractive.

At the mo I drive a German premium car I bought new last year. I considered getting a Tesla, but not an attractive alternative for me. The ICE car I drive is pretty much silent and much more premium feeling, and also not expensive to run. I also got a humongous discount on the RRP. I think it's going to be a long time before an EV is as attractive an offering.

[winkywanky]

I have explained many times over why I think it is unwise. If it is not clear to you please re-read the thread. Or at least ask nicely! 

I used a popular Covid argument as an analogy which would make the point very clearly that EVs are overweight by comparison to ICE vehicles as you appeared unable to grasp it. Like the term "order of magnitude" I expect an adult to be familiar with the use of analogy. Even if you know nothing about EV's it surely makes the point very clearly. 

In response to your accusation I think it is reasonable for me to reply that you come across as someone who cannot admit to being wrong on t'Internet, even when you know little about the topic under discussion.

I am not against EV's. I have posted +vely about them on this board a number of times. I've also said on this board that when the kind of tech and quality offered in a Porsche Taycan is available for the price of a typical ICE Geman premium car, that will be attractive.

At the mo I drive a German premium car I bought new last year. I considered getting a Tesla, but not an attractive alternative for me. The ICE car I drive is pretty much silent and much more premium feeling, and also not expensive to run. I also got a humongous discount on the RRP. I think it's going to be a long time before an EV is as attractive an offering.

Here's something to help you:

Tesla Y Model, weighs 2000kg. Range 300miles.

Latest Ford Kuga of similar size and spec, weighs 1730kg. Perhaps cars for Mr. Average.

That's a 270kg difference. Not a hideously large difference, bearing in mind 15yrs is lots of time to come up with improved battery tech IMO (which I know you don't believe in).


You've given no real figures to back up your argument, therefore you have no real argument. I can grasp anything you like, you just need to present it (after you thought about it).

I used a popular Covid argument as an analogy which would make the point very clearly that EVs are overweight by comparison to ICE vehicles as you appeared unable to grasp it.

WTF has that got to do with the price of eggs, let alone a discussion about EV vs. ICE cars? Frankly, I'm mystified  .

[lostandfound]

Here's something to help you:

Tesla Y Model, weighs 2000kg. Range 300miles.

Latest Ford Kuga of similar size and spec, weighs 1730kg. Perhaps cars for Mr. Average.

That's a 270kg difference. Not a hideously large difference, bearing in mind 15yrs is lots of time to come up with improved battery tech IMO (which I know you don't believe in).

You've given no real figures to back up your argument, therefore you have no real argument. I can grasp anything you like, you just need to present it (after you thought about it).

I used a popular Covid argument as an analogy which would make the point very clearly that EVs are overweight by comparison to ICE vehicles as you appeared unable to grasp it.

WTF has that got to do with the price of eggs, let alone a discussion about EV vs. ICE cars? Frankly, I'm mystified  .

I disagree that the weight penalty is insignificant.

Volkswagen Golf e Golf, weight 2020 kg. VW Golf mk7 1,293 - 1500 kg.

VW ID.3 approx 200 kg heavier than mk 8 Golf. Cheap and nasty interior because of need to save money because of expensive battery.

Li batteries 50% more energy dense than 10 years ago. Typical economies of scale. After ten years of economies of scale, how much more improvement is to be had flogging that same horse?

IMO industry observers say radical improved battery tech is needed, and there is a goldrush with 100s of speculative projects, most if not all of which will burn through their cash and die.

Covid analogy relevant because similarly to people arguing the detail of this or that causation the overall death rate is the key. Same with EV weight v ICE - forget the detail of drivetrain bits - look at the overall weight.

[winkywanky]

I disagree that the weight penalty is insignificant.

Volkswagen Golf e Golf, weight 2020 kg. VW Golf mk7 1,293 - 1500 kg.

VW ID.3 approx 200 kg heavier than mk 8 Golf. Cheap and nasty interior because of need to save money because of expensive battery.

Li batteries 50% more energy dense than 10 years ago. Typical economies of scale. After ten years of economies of scale, how much more improvement is to be had flogging that same horse?

IMO industry observers say radical improved battery tech is needed, and there is a goldrush with 100s of speculative projects, most if not all of which will burn through their cash and die.

Covid analogy relevant because similarly to people arguing the detail of this or that causation the overall death rate is the key. Same with EV weight v ICE - forget the detail of drivetrain bits - look at the overall weight.

I didn't say it was insignificant, did I?  .

I purposely chose the Tesla because it has a nice interior. And only 270kg difference from a similarly sized car. All your post proves is that VW have some way to go to provide a meaningful alternative. Tesla are starting to.

Yes, it's obvious that radical improvement in battery tech is necessary to make EVs with similar range and weight as current ICEs. But govts setting a 15yr window for that to happen will ensure a degree of urgency. If it proves impossible and there's no meaningful improvement then of course govts won't simply stop cars being produced and enforce unsuitable products on the masses. That would be insane. But what it does do is provide the necessary impetus for something which can almost certainly happen.

Your Covid comparison is still meaningless and spurious because the Flu doesn't potentially fill hospitals with dying people, with a disease for which there is currently no vaccine and which is largely untreatable.

But your mindset on Covid does explain your thinking on the issue of EVs though, so thanks for that bit of clarity.

[lostandfound]

I didn't say it was insignificant, did I?  .

I purposely chose the Tesla because it has a nice interior. And only 270kg difference from a similarly sized car. All your post proves is that VW have some way to go to provide a meaningful alternative. Tesla are starting to.

Yes, it's obvious that radical improvement in battery tech is necessary to make EVs with similar range and weight as current ICEs. But govts setting a 15yr window for that to happen will ensure a degree of urgency. If it proves impossible and there's no meaningful improvement then of course govts won't simply stop cars being produced and enforce unsuitable products on the masses. That would be insane. But what it does do is provide the necessary impetus for something which can almost certainly happen.

Your Covid comparison is still meaningless and spurious because the Flu doesn't potentially fill hospitals with dying people, with a disease for which there is currently no vaccine and which is largely untreatable.

But your mindset on Covid does explain your thinking on the issue of EVs though, so thanks for that bit of clarity.

May I remind you we are discussing future battery weight, and your argument is in that context the weight penalty is insignificant - which is not the case, because without an as yet unknown transformational discovery of new battery tech batteries will remain much less energy dense.   

One reason I and many others would not buy a Tesla is because of its plasticky interior, which is shit. 

You continue to misunderstand the gist of the analogy regarding arguing over details instead of looking at the overall picture.

To your existing problems with English comprehension - order of magnitude, and analogy we can now add the word ban. 

If the government ban non EV cars from 2035 that means they can no longer be sold. I encourage you to read about the meaning of the word ban. 

However, I am glad you agree that a ban would be insane - from which it looks like this argument is now concluded! I'm so glad you agree with me after all. 

[winkywanky]

May I remind you we are discussing future battery weight, and your argument is in that context the weight penalty is insignificant - which is not the case, because without an as yet unknown transformational discovery of new battery tech batteries will remain much less energy dense.   

One reason I and many others would not buy a Tesla is because of it's plasticky interior, which is shit. 

You continue to misunderstand the gist of the analogy regarding arguing over details instead of looking the overall picture.

To your existing problems with English comprehension - order of magnitude, and analogy we can now add the word ban. 

If the government ban non EV cars from 2035 that means they can no longer be sold. I encourage you to read about the meaning of the word ban. 

However, I am glad you agree that a ban would be insane - from which it looks like this argument is now concluded! I'm so glad you agree with me after all. 

FFS, it's hardly worth trying to have a discussion with you when you keep misrepresenting what I say  .

Fuckwit 

[lostandfound]

FFS, it's hardly worth trying to have a discussion with you when you keep misrepresenting what I say  .

Fuckwit 

Pot, kettle, black. Don't like it don't do it. 

[winkywanky]

Pot, kettle, black. Don't like it don't do it. 

A bit earlier you were at pains to point out that you drove a premium German performance brand or some such.

Of course not all such drivers are pretentious, lane hogging, tailgating twats who never signal or let anyone out of a junction because they're too selfish, that would be a broad generalisation and unfair to those that don't exhibit such behaviour.

But your attitude in this thread suggests that perhaps you do conform to that very stereotype 

[lostandfound]

A bit earlier you were at pains to point out that you drove a premium German performance brand or some such.

Of course not all such drivers are pretentious, lane hogging, tailgating twats who never signal or let anyone out of a junction because they're too selfish, that would be a broad generalisation and unfair to those that don't exhibit such behaviour.

But your attitude in this thread suggests that perhaps you do conform to that very stereotype 

"Premium" is a well known moniker applied to a vertical market slice based on branding. High volume BMW Merc Audi Jag etc

Always happy to educate. Reasonable rates for private tuition. Remedial English a specialty. Can also help with adult numeracy.

Thanks for the paragraph length insult. I feel so honoured to have been promoted from a single word epithet! 

[winkywanky]

"Premium" is a well known moniker applied to a vertical market slice based on branding. High volume BMW Merc Audi Jag etc

Always happy to educate. Reasonable rates for private tuition. Remedial English a specialty. Can also help with adult numeracy.

Thanks for the paragraph length insult. I feel so honoured to have been promoted from a single word epithet! 

I'm thinking a debadged Beemer. Aspiring middle manager. With a completely untouched indicator stalk.

[lostandfound]

I'm thinking a debadged Beemer. Aspiring middle manager. With a completely untouched indicator stalk.

Says the guy who has driven one 'performance orientated brand with a great heritage' for the last 25yrs. Pretentious moi?

I'm thinking a rusty MGB roadster, torn hood stuck in the down position, front wing painted in grey primer, with no MOT, bald tyres, a smokey exhaust and a red faced tweed jacketed cloth capped twat behind the wheel peering out from behind his Biggles goggles and yelling obscenities at the fuckwits overtaking him as he farts up the road at a wobbly 15 mph. 

[Yankee21]

They camped in my local park at beginning of the month, while protesting in Whitehall.

Local gammons were in uproar, but they vacated it and was left in a spotless condition.

[bhudda]

Perhaps you chaps could continue this conversation via pm? I suspect noone else is reading your posts anymore?

[cotton]

Perhaps you chaps could continue this conversation via pm? I suspect noone else is reading your posts anymore?

Dont say that , i just got me a bumper bag of popcorn.
Im reading your posts guys 

[bhudda]

Dont say that , i just got me a bumper bag of popcorn.
Im reading your posts guys 

Fair enough, i stand corrected

[winkywanky]

Says the guy who has driven one 'performance orientated brand with a great heritage' for the last 25yrs. Pretentious moi?

I'm thinking a rusty MGB roadster, torn hood stuck in the down position, front wing painted in grey primer, with no MOT, bald tyres, a smokey exhaust and a red faced tweed jacketed cloth capped twat behind the wheel peering out from behind his Biggles goggles and yelling obscenities at the fuckwits overtaking him as he farts up the road at a wobbly 15 mph. 

You were at pains to point out you drive a German brand like it was in some way superior, not just simply that it informed your argument in this thread. Which aligns perfectly with your posting in this thread.

And you're banging on about I don't understand the English language and I can't add up either  .

You're just a fucking buffoon with an overriding sense of your own self-importance. You don't like being told you have to drive an EV because you don't want to.

Get over yourself already! 

[lostandfound]

You were at pains to point out you drive a German brand like it was in some way superior, not just simply that it informed your argument in this thread. Which aligns perfectly with your posting in this thread.

And you're banging on about I don't understand the English language and I can't add up either  .

You're just a fucking buffoon with an overriding sense of your own self-importance. You don't like being told you have to drive an EV because you don't want to.

Get over yourself already! 

Just as you were at pains to point out your drive a performance orientated brand with a great heritage like it was in some way superior. 

You have zero self awareness. 

Although - FYI - always happy to further your education - high volume German premium cars are the best cars available to buy. That's why they regularly appear in the lists of top selling cars, outselling much cheaper cars which arguably do the same job. Those in lower price brackets are built down to a price, those which are more expensive are lower volume and don't have the quality of production engineering that the volume sellers do.

[winkywanky]

Just as you were at pains to point out your drive a performance orientated brand with a great heritage like it was in some way superior. 

You have zero self awareness. 

Although - FYI - always happy to further your education - high volume German premium cars are the best cars available to buy. That's why they regularly appear in the lists of top selling cars, outselling much cheaper cars which arguably do the same job. Those in lower price brackets are built down to a price, those which are more expensive are lower volume and don't have the quality of production engineering that the volume sellers do.

No, that merely explained that I enjoy driving fast cars and am a bit of a petrolhead, and that was relevant to my stance on the argument for EVs.

You don't have to be a twat for that to be the case. You probably are a bit of a twat when you needlessly introduce the superior Germanicness of your drive, and it explains your stance better than anything else really.

In all your answers on this thread, you have simply declined to elaborate on your 'argument' or provide a cogent response to specific questions. So I had to introduce them for you  .

And then you start accusing me of not understanding English or Maths. Expect like for like if you want to start talking like a cunt  .

[lostandfound]

No, that merely explained that I enjoy driving fast cars and am a bit of a petrolhead, and that was relevant to my stance on the argument for EVs.

You don't have to be a twat for that to be the case. You probably are a bit of a twat when you needlessly introduce the superior Germanicness of your drive, and it explains your stance better than anything else really.

In all your answers on this thread, you have simply declined to elaborate on your 'argument' or provide a cogent response to specific questions. So I had to introduce them for you  .

And then you start accusing me of not understanding English or Maths. Expect like for like if you want to start talking like a cunt  .

No you snobbishly stated that you have driven a 'performance orientated brand with a great heritage' for the last 25yrs.

Whereas, as I have done throughout this thread, I've made a statement which you an easily verify in a few moments via Google. Go look up lists of best selling cars to objectively verify that Merc / BMW / Audi often outsell similar size cars which have a much lower price, also demonstrating that they achieve much higher volumes.

Why do you think the quality / energy density  of Li batteries has improved over the last 10 years? It's because of the volume you dummy! 

I took a humorous approach, pointing out you were simply not understanding the argument, because this is much friendlier than simply calling you a buffoon and a fuckwit and a cunt - even though you are clearly behaving like that! 

[winkywanky]

No you snobbishly stated that you have driven a 'performance orientated brand with a great heritage' for the last 25yrs.

Whereas, as I have done throughout this thread, I've made a statement which you an easily verify in a few moments via Google. Go look up lists of best selling cars to objectively verify that Merc / BMW / Audi often outsell similar size cars which have a much lower price, also demonstrating that they achieve much higher volumes.

Why do you think the quality / energy density  of Li batteries has improved over the last 10 years? It's because of the volume you dummy! 

I took a humorous approach, pointing out you were simply not understanding the argument, because this is much friendlier than simply calling you a buffoon and a fuckwit and a cunt - even though you are clearly behaving like that! 

Oh dear  .

So now your real agenda emerges. You explained nothing, you have no argument. There was nothing to understand.

This will be my last post here because this is pointless. And I fully realise you need to have the last word, even though you contributed nothing meaningful. So I shall simply say piss off .

[lostandfound]

Oh dear  .

So now your real agenda emerges. You explained nothing, you have no argument. There was nothing to understand.

This will be my last post here because this is pointless. And I fully realise you need to have the last word, even though you contributed nothing meaningful. So I shall simply say piss off .

Don't be such a drama queen. My argument is there in plain sight. You just ignored and misunderstood it.